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Originally Posted by YForYellow
Originally Posted by SugarCane

He's been having both the affair and his marriage while you maintain contact with him. He is getting some of his key needs met by her and some by you.

Does he visit the children at your house? This needs to stop. In future he needs to collect the children and have them at his place.

Plan B is the only thing likely to speed up the demise of the affair now that it is so established. As long as you meet his need for family commitment by showing him that he can come and go while his kids are well cared for by you, the kids can be off his conscience and he can get on with the affair when he goes back to his place. You need to fix the kids in his conscience by removing your support for him when he visits.


Are you sounding a bit strict?


Hi Yellow, welcome to Marriage Builders. Sugarcane is not "strict," but strategic. She knows what works because she has been here for years and is telling you what works best. This is the advice you will also get from Dr. Harley. What she told you is true, that as long as he has access to the house he can behave like everything is normal. You are unknowingly propping up the affair. The OW appreciates that, but it does nothing to help your marriage.

I would strongly suggest you keep an open mind if you want the best chance of saving this. Sugarcane is one of the most knowledgeable posters here and I would not recommended running her off.

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Well established affairs still die a natural death?
I think it was in the book too, having to face reality helps the affair to die, and what more reality could there be?


The reality he should be facing is what divorce looks like. He doesn't get that glimpse if you continue propping up the affair. He should have to visit the kids from his home like most divorced parents.

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I understood the principles of emotional needs being met and agree that I mustn’t meet them as long as he’s involved with someone else.
Initially I did my best to fix the issue in our marriage, to meet his needs- it’s never been my intention to not meet his needs.
But I’ve backed off since they moved in, or a little earlier. As I said, I hope it will crash just as quickly as it built up, and I better take care of myself until then.


Yes, it may crash, but it doesn't mean he will come back to you. You make yourself the LESS attractive option by making yourself available. That is not strategic. This is why Dr Harley recommends that betrayed wives go into Plan B after 3-4 weeks. You are well over that timeline.

Another reason Dr Harley recommends women go into Plan B sooner rather than later is because they suffer terrible emotional and physical fallout.
Originally Posted by Dr Bill Harley
"The problem with a continuation of plan A is that it usually leads to severe emotional symptoms, including years of post-traumatic stress disorder, even when the WS eventually returns. Many women that I've counseled actually have nervous breakdowns in their effort to draw their WS back to them. Instead of making the BS attractive to the WS, plan A actually makes these poor women so unattractive that it completely eliminates all hope of reconciliation.


And let's say you are not actually trying to meet his needs as you mentioned earlier. Dr Harley calls that "Plan C," the worst of all plans. Plan C is giving him the cold shoulder but allowing him access to you. It is a state of limbo that serves to make the OW look more attractive. [she is not giving him the cold shoulder, after all]

Right now you and the OW are meeting his needs so he has the best of both worlds. He is also able to demonize you so the focus is on you. With you out of the picture, she will be forced to meet all his needs and the focus will be on their relationship. He will raise the bar on her because of all he "sacrificed" for her. She will not be able to meet his needs and that is when the fighting starts. These relationships are always renters relationships where they keep score, after all.


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I don’t see him when he picks them up. Though I happen to see him through the window when he dropped them so I know he lost a lot of weight, and he’s been slim anyway.
Yes, our kids are cared for by me.


I am confused now. You told Sugarcane she was being "too strict" for giving you good advice and then you end by saying you have essentially been doing this? CONFUSED... dontknow

My suggestion would be to go into a strict Plan B, as Sugarcane advised, and remove yourself from the situation. Set up an intermediary, change your locks and send him a Plan B letter.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by YForYellow
From what I can tell most people seem to find it normal. Maybe it’s my perception.
It’s really odd, he always wanted me to know his coworkers, just a little over a year ago they would tell me he’d be talking a lot about me and us and was really proud of his family and just a few months later it’s normal to break up.
The kids sometimes are mad at him, but they miss him too and don’t want to lose him.
I should think her family know by now, but no I wouldn’t know how to find them.


This would be a great place to start. Expose the affair at his workplace and especially to her family. If her family knows she is having an affair with a married man, it won't be so easy to slip him in as the "new guy." Have you read the exposure thread about workplace exposure? Dr Harley recommends exposing at the workplace.

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Guess that’s why I’m focusing on the timeline so much. I don’t think I can do much until he’s out of it. So that’s my hope.
I’m hoping for that protective bubble to break and the passion and fantasy to fade. And I’m hoping the longest part is the secrecy and craziness and fantasy.


Well, that is a longshot now because this has gone on for so long. But you can do alot to help that fantasy burst with some key exposures. When an affair goes on for a long time with no interference the fantasy is LESS LIKELY to burst. Sometimes they stay that way forever if the affair is protected.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by YForYellow
My plan is focussing on my and the kids’ well-being until the affair dies. And then see what is possible in terms of reconciling our marriage.

Now with things getting close to a year and also the upcoming holidays I’m struggling a bit and I guess am looking for some encouragement that nearly all affairs DO die within 2 years.



Going into a dark Plan B before the holidays is very damaging to an affair because the WS sorely misses his family over the holidays. You can compound that damage by exposing to the OW's parents, family and friends, because won't allow your H to darken their doorsteps. Some may not allow him in their homes.

While it is a long shot, because this has gone on so long, this may be a great opportunity for you to cause conflict in the affair.

I also noticed you said your H left and THEN started his affair. That is not how it happened. He left because of his affair.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by YForYellow
Originally Posted by SugarCane
Originally Posted by YForYellow
Hi y’all,

So my husband’s having an affair.

He moved out nearly a year ago “to think things through” after had a couple of stupid fights. I know he told some coworkers about it and obviously one listened a bit too attentively and my husband wasted no time and disappeared head first into that affair.

Wait...what?

Nonononono.

You do realise that the affair had already begun before he moved out, and that's what made it attractive for him to move out, don't you?

His co-worker did not listen attentively and decide to snare him. She had already snared him! This affair was quite deeply entrenched if he was prepared to leave his wife and kids for her. Most married men want both the affair and the marriage; they do not leave their families for a piece of trash - but he did. You need to see that.



I don’t know if that matters.
The OW happened to meet a need when it wasn’t met in the marriage.
She had started working there just a couple of months earlier, so even if it started earlier, what does it change?
He left for a piece of trash and a fantasy life, I do know.


It changes everything because it is the cause of his leaving. Isn't the CAUSE important? If the cause is not important to you, I assure you it can be important to others. There is a huge difference in these narratives:

1. Husband and I fought alot and he moved out and met a new lady at work

2. Husband had a workplace affair and abandoned his family by moving in with the OW

HUGE DIFFERENCE. By telling the story the way you telling it, you give his affair cover and plausibility. That enables their affair at your expense.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by YForYellow

Everyone knows- workplace, family, friends. I’m surprised that a lot of people think it’s normal. Happens all the time. I should just divorce him. That’s why I don’t talk a lot with people, I am not wasting my energies here.



The reason that exposure has been so ineffective is this:
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He moved out nearly a year ago “to think things through” after had a couple of stupid fights. I know he told some coworkers about it and obviously one listened a bit too attentively and my husband wasted no time and disappeared head first into that affair.


This dishonest narrative gave the affair cover. The focus was placed on your MARRIAGE as the cause of the separation instead of the real reason. All waywards spin the truth this way: "I have been unhappy for years. I love you but am not in love with you. I need to move out to think." The objective is to move out DUE TO MARITAL PROBLEMS and then magically meet a new person. That is what they have done to you.

The window of exposure effectiveness has pretty much already closed with the exception of exposure to her family and the workplace. But it cannot be presented in the way you presented it above. People need to know he left for an affair. For those who heard the fake narrative it is pretty much a lost cause.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Hi MelodyLane

Thanks for your responses I do appreciate it.

The strict I felt a bit scolded when I was told the free access has to stop, because there’s never been free access, neither to me nor the house.

I certainly didn’t mean to run her off!

Ok I agree with plan B. I can’t change what happened so far.
So you’re saying 95% not lasting for two years isn’t total figures, but only when they are dealt with?


I can see where you’re coming from, with when did it start.
No however nasty fight is an excuse for having an affair. It just happened at a time when we were having an issue. That’s no reason to pick up the next available woman and move in with her. That’s just crazy, no matter what. Of course he told me he hasn’t been happy.., that’s just crap and justification.

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But you’re right of course. I was believing it was about the fights and tried to fix that issue and not dismiss his needs any longer.
Of course the secrecy made it possible for the affair to grow, when I learned about it even the lease was signed.
Of course it was all lying and betrayal

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So your plan is to expose to their workplace and find her family to expose to. What can you do to accomplish this?

Also get Plan B together. You read how to plan B, so who will be your IM and when will you be going into Plan B? Write your letter and post here for feedback.

Concentrate on your plan and you will start to feel better because you have a plan.

And hope SugarCane will come back because she is one of the best.


FWW/BW (me)
WH
2nd M for both
Blended Family with 7 kids between us
Too much hurt and pain on both sides that my brain hurts just thinking about it all.



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... and of course he was trying to sell it as a “relationship with his girlfriend” to friends and colleagues, but I had made it very clear that he was having an affair, and she’s his mistress.

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I did expose it at his workplace- that he was having an affair with his secretary. And friends. A few cut contact with him, some tell me I have to accept it and just divorce him.
As for her family- no I don’t have an idea how to contact them.
Theres no Social Media, just a profile video showing her sitting on a bed in underwear. No friends, or any information. She moved here only last summer, they’re not living here.

IM figuring that out. Could be one of the friends that cut contact with him.

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As for the letter. I’d stick to the template in Surviving an
Affair, just, as we don’t speak English, transfer it to my language.

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A quick comment on something that maybe I missed earlier, but could you explain in further detail the workplace exposure? It seems unusual that a company would condone an affair between a manager and their direct report. Often this leads to disciplinary action or termination against the manager. It is the rare company that does not have policies against this due to the potential legal exposure. Have you tried to hurt the affair using the company's HR or Legal Dept.?


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011

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Blackhawk, I know all of his colleagues so I told them, his boss and team. This is so crazy, they KNOW us, me, our kids, even the dog and should know better than “that’s just how life happens”.
We met them for a bbq and a after work get together 3 and 1 month before he left...
We’re not living in the US, legally relationships are private and a company has no say in it, not even between boss and secretary. Private rights are protected by labor law. Actually Walmart tried to impose relationship restrictions a couple of years ago, but failed. Adultery is not a crime either.

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Originally Posted by YForYellow
Hi MelodyLane

Thanks for your responses I do appreciate it.

The strict I felt a bit scolded when I was told the free access has to stop, because there’s never been free access, neither to me nor the house. I certainly didn’t mean to run her off!


You weren't being scolded, you were being helped by one of the best posters here.



Quote
Ok I agree with plan B. I can’t change what happened so far.
So you’re saying 95% not lasting for two years isn’t total figures, but only when they are dealt with?


I understand you can't change what has happened but the longer the affair goes on, the harder it is to bust it up and save the marriage. The wayward mind becomes more and more entrenched. This is why Dr Harley advocates these steps. When extraordinary measures are not taken early on, even if the affair does die a natural death, they tend to move onto the next affair.

Quote

No however nasty fight is an excuse for having an affair. It just happened at a time when we were having an issue. That’s no reason to pick up the next available woman and move in with her. That’s just crazy, no matter what. Of course he told me he hasn’t been happy.., that’s just crap and justification.


Right. He was having the affair the whole time. He was also checked out and hostile towards you, I am guessing, which contributed to the fights.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by YForYellow
I did expose it at his workplace- that he was having an affair with his secretary.


So you have exposed to his boss and the VP of Human Resources in a FORMAL MANNER? What was their response? Did you read the Exposure 101 thread in my profile?

Quote

As for her family- no I don’t have an idea how to contact them.


You must figure this out. Even if you have to hire a PI to do a background check finind her family. I have heard of getting this done for under $500. This is a critical step. Is she on Linkedin? Facebook? Does she have you blocked? Can others see her? Has your husband friended her or family members?




"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by YForYellow
Blackhawk, I know all of his colleagues so I told them, his boss and team. This is so crazy, they KNOW us, me, our kids, even the dog and should know better than “that’s just how life happens”.
We met them for a bbq and a after work get together 3 and 1 month before he left...
We’re not living in the US, legally relationships are private and a company has no say in it, not even between boss and secretary. Private rights are protected by labor law. Actually Walmart tried to impose relationship restrictions a couple of years ago, but failed. Adultery is not a crime either.


I would create a formal letter using the template in the Exposure 101 thread and send it to the VP of HR, and both their bosses, ccing all of them. The narrative needs to be CLEAR: my husband started an adulterous affair in teh workplace and has abandoned our family in pursuit of his affair.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by YForYellow
Blackhawk, I know all of his colleagues so I told them, his boss and team. This is so crazy, they KNOW us, me, our kids, even the dog and should know


Were they all told that your husband started an affair at work and abandoned his family for a workplace affair? Or were they all told the lies your H told them? "wife and I fought and separated, I met a new love at work?" That is whta they have been led to believe.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

Exposure 101


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Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by YForYellow
Blackhawk, I know all of his colleagues so I told them, his boss and team. This is so crazy, they KNOW us, me, our kids, even the dog and should know


Were they all told that your husband started an affair at work and abandoned his family for a workplace affair? Or were they all told the lies your H told them? "wife and I fought and separated, I met a new love at work?" That is whta they have been led to believe.

Probably both but I told them the former.

She has that Facebook profile but no friends. He doesn’t use Facebook. No family members. No other social media. I haven’t either.

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Originally Posted by YForYellow
Originally Posted by MelodyLane
Originally Posted by YForYellow
Blackhawk, I know all of his colleagues so I told them, his boss and team. This is so crazy, they KNOW us, me, our kids, even the dog and should know


Were they all told that your husband started an affair at work and abandoned his family for a workplace affair? Or were they all told the lies your H told them? "wife and I fought and separated, I met a new love at work?" That is whta they have been led to believe.

Probably both but I told them the former.


I would use the template outlined in my exposure thread and send it to HR, a key VP and both their bosses. You will want to time this to hit at the same time you expose to her family.

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She has that Facebook profile but no friends. He doesn’t use Facebook. No family members. No other social media. I haven’t either.


Keep looking. Look to see if you see any likes on her posts/photos. You might be able to glean something from looking on their pages. Just keep racking your brain until you find something. Search everywhere, enlist a :PI if you have to.


"It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena.." Theodore Roosevelt

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Originally Posted by YForYellow
Blackhawk, I know all of his colleagues so I told them, his boss and team. This is so crazy, they KNOW us, me, our kids, even the dog and should know better than “that’s just how life happens”.
We met them for a bbq and a after work get together 3 and 1 month before he left...
We’re not living in the US, legally relationships are private and a company has no say in it, not even between boss and secretary. Private rights are protected by labor law. Actually Walmart tried to impose relationship restrictions a couple of years ago, but failed. Adultery is not a crime either.


On the workplace exposure, I fully agree with MelodyLane to formalize this exposure to the company if you have not already done so. Even if your current local country jurisdiction is reluctant to legally address these issues, large local companies - and definitely international companies - usually will still have policies and codes of conduct in place to address this even if not fully legally binding. They will not just forget about this problem, as from the HR side it is a significant problem for staff morale and recruiting because of potential perceptions of unfairness and favoritism by other staff, beyond the legal implications and liability. If his company is local and does project or outsourcing work for large international companies, this also could become a reputational issue for the company, at least in theory.

I would suggest a formal letter to the head of HR, copied to the head of Legal and/or head of Internal Audit. You have nothing to lose by taking this step, but it could help you strategically now or later down the road. You can also use this to establish the real narrative, not the one your manager husband and his secretary girlfriend have given everyone.

I wish you well and am sorry you are going through this.


Me: BH
Marriage: 22 years
2 kids
D-Day 5 Sept 2011
EA w OM started Fall 2010, PA w OM Spring 2011, OM died end Sept 2011

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