Tomorrow is day 10 of separation. H has been visiting friends who live 4 hours away. As far as I know, he plans to return on Friday. I have no idea what he thinks will happen next, but my plans are to negotiate the terms of our continued separation. I have a long ways to go, but my self-confidence has made great strides in the last week. I'm still very much a work in progress. As for my H, he has the choice of refusing to seek help and living in poverty, or seeking assistance which would provide for some counselling and financial needs. In the short term, I want time away from him so that I can live without walking on eggshells all the time. <p>As for the long term, I feel lost. Whenever I take a look at where I am, I can see all the wrong turns I made. I want to get back on track, but when I ask, what should I do, how should I walk (in Isaiah somewhere), I don't get that whisper in my ear that tells me. My own future is very uncertain, and I can see how my life is defined through my H even now. I don't know where my path is. I've been trying to find it for a long time. I don't have a map, I don't have a plan, I don't have a calling. <p>Spiritually, I *think* I've made strides. My priorities have changed, my heart has softened, my anger diminished, my obedience increased, I pray every day. I try to do the right thing with every opportunity. I trust in the Lord. I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I place my relationship with God above all else. I pray for my H, especially when he's driving. I express praise and gratitude for the many blessings in my life every day. I tithe (irregularly I admit, and less than 10%, but that too is a work in progress). I try to balance "letting go and letting God" against exercising my free will and realizing that God doesn't want to cradle me forever. It's time for me to grow some more. I'm 42 years old, and I kinda feel like, well, what am I going to be when I grow up? I don't know!!! How do I find my way?

LH<p>Sometimes when we come to a 4-way stop, we don't know which choice to make. I think that, we think we are supposed to be headed somewhere. I'm not sure that is what God thinks. <p>He says there is a season for all things. A season for joy, a season for sadness, etc.<p>I think when we do come to that 4-way stop, we do not hear a whisper in our ear, then I think it is time to pull over.<p>That doesn't mean that we don't continue to do what we are doing, it means we DO continue what we are doing, even more-so. It means we continue living daily, doing our daily tasks, and continuing to make the choices that we believe honor God. <p>At some point there WILL be a new choice to make, and THAT is the turning point - the turning point of whether we will honor God in that choice, or not. It will be a choice that pleases ourselves, or pleases God. That is when we are moving away from the curb and making our choice of which way to go on that 4-way stop. <p>At some point - we will know it is time to pull over again, at that 4-way stop - but hopefully, after so much practice - the choices will become easier and easier - because what the choice that pleases God also pleases ourselves. <p>Did that make any sense? This is my philosophy.<p>Right now I am at a 4-way stop with my career. Which way do I want to go? Which way does God want me to go? It seems right to me to just pull over, continue to do daily what pleases the Lord, just like you are doing now - and just pull over and wait.<p>LH, you hang in there - self-confidence is good. Your husband has arrived at his 4-way stop and either is not sure where to go, or plunged ahead down that wrong road.... You can't control his choices, and it takes time to learn the dance that we must dance in our relationship with the Lord.<p>Just keep on - keeping on, remind yourself of the goal, which is in this case - to be in harmony with God's will.<p>TnT

Hi Lonesome,<p>It sounds like you have grown a lot spiritually:<p>"I trust in the Lord. I accept Jesus as my Lord and Savior. I place my relationship with God above all else."<p>If I remember right you didn't have this certainty when you first started posting. In which case, you have been moving forward a lot. It just may not seem like it because your outward circumstances are still causing you grief and you are still struggling through them. But God has been at work (as He always is) - on the inside of you. And He as accomplished a LOT in you. Be encouraged!<p>I know we've had some similar kinds of struggles relating to our husbands. I think the common thread is the passive-aggressive behavior. I've been learning a lot about it. The book Living With the Passive Aggressive Man is very good. Made so many things clear for me - at least in beginning to understand the behaviors and how they affect us. It is a tough time for me, too, as I face the reality. It seems overwhelming, especially when I take my eyes off God. If you haven't looked much into this behavior, you might do it, just to understand how to go forward without constantly being pulled into the craziness/confusion. These relationships are very frustrating and a LOT more work than the average. <p>Take care, Lonesome. I pray for you. <p> December 14, 2001: Message edited by: siftedlikewheat ]<p>[ December 14, 2001: Message edited by: siftedlikewheat ]</p>

Hi LH,<p>I pray that you continue on your path. Since it is Friday God please be with LH while discussing the future. Guide both to your will and understanding. Also give each patience and ability to talk with love. In Jesus Name.<p>LH you are such a wonderful person on an inward jurney. It takes time and TnT gave such wonderful advice.

Thank you tnt for the great insight. It's a message I see in this forum a lot, and I take it to heart. It's just that I've been by the side of the road for such a long time! More than a year, maybe longer depending on the perspective. <p>SLW, thanks for checking in. Can you give me some highlights from that book? My library doesn't have it. I just spoke with the friend my H visited for 10 days. Friend gave H a choice of kentucky fried chicken or taco bell for dinner. H refused to choose. Friend made the choice for him. <p>Paha, I haven't seen you in my inbox. Guess my 3rd and 4th emails didn't get there? argh<p>I have an update on the separation "negotiations" if you can call it that. H returned Friday. I was exhausted and our talk Friday night didn't go well. I fell into old communication bad habits and we ended up arguing and blaming each other. H said he criticizes me because I have no discipline. He also said I have no spirit and never did. I guess I have a layer of teflon now. The comments rolled off without doing much damage like they have in the past. I told him he needs counselling. He told me I need counselling. I said I'm IN counselling! I told him the way he treats me is emotional abuse. He accused me of emotionally abusing him. <p>Saturday, we tried again. The communication was a bit more civilized, but still no progress. I told my request for a separation still stands. I offered to be the one who leaves. He said he would leave but still refused counselling. I left to do some errands. I prayed while I was driving. Lord, I can't reach him! <p>When I got back to the house, he broke down. He said he doesn't intend to hurt me. He agreed to seek counselling. PTL! Now, he has a long history of saying something and not doing it, but still this must be a good thing. I told him my request for separation still stands, but I'll wait for him while he gets better. I said I'd never give up on him. He asked to stay one more night. I said ok. <p>Today, he's working on his computer, making no moves indicating his departure. I asked if there was something I said yesterday that made him think I'd changed my mind about separation. He said no. I said it's important to me for your words and your actions to match. He had told me for three years he would get a job, and the job he has now found him. I told him I'm not willing to wait another three years, or two years, or another day. I repeated my offer to be the one who leaves. He left a little while ago, claiming he'll be sleeping in his car tonight. In the old days, I would have felt guilty, thinking it's my fault he'd be sleeping in his car. I feel sad for him that he'll be making that choice, but it's HIS choice, not mine. I spent an hour convincing him to take some money with him and some information on inexpensive motels. <p>Lord, I lift up my H to you. He is not thinking clearly and he needs You to send an army of angels. I want so much for him to be whole, but it's beyond my abilities and always has been. Only You can reach him, and only my H can let You in. I pray that my H may be saved in all senses of the word. IJN Amen.

Hi LH,<p>I'm so sorry I haven't been here before now... <p>I too am on a journey at 42, although I'll be 43 next week [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , and I am also trying to find a balance.<p>If you can figure this "life thing" out, would ya please let me know? <p>You are a loving person, and someone who I respect.<p>Continued good wishes as you GO FORWARD.<p>Sheryl

Thank you Sheryl. I know you're having a rough time too. Happy birthday in advance. Figuring out this "life thing" is a bear, isn't it? I'm a limp rag gone through the wringer one too many times. It's very hard to let go.

Today is definitely a shaky day. H didn't show up at his work this morning. I feel very queasy. I feel like what's best for him and what's best for me are at odds. I pray for his safety constantly. I'm worried about him. I pray for an angel to give him temporary shelter during this difficult time. I'm not sure he's capable of self care. My tanks are empty after all the time I've carried responsibilities for him. I pray that he will become capable someday, and I pray that someone besides me can help him through the transition.

Oh, I'm so sorry to hear this.<p>Why, oh WHY do things have to be so difficult?<p>Thinking about you and I've said a prayer for his safety too!<p>(((((LH)))))

LH,<p>I don't really have any time now, but when I get a chance I'll post somethings from the book. There is also a web site about passive-aggressive behavior and people can post messages to each other. I see a lot of familiar behaviors on there that I deal with too - it starts bringing up a lot of anger when you see the games they've been playing (and keep playing). It is very tough.<p>See if I can get the link:
Passive-aggressive<p>Read all around on that site (go to the home page, too). It really opened my eyes.<p>[ December 17, 2001: Message edited by: siftedlikewheat ]</p>

Thank you SLW. I found that page probably two months ago. That's where I learned that avoiding conflict absolutely doesn't work with passive aggressives (like avoiding conflict works in other situations?!?! Ha) In a way I was releived after finding that information. All this time I thought his vietnam experience was the problem. Now I know it goes way deeper than that. Now if I could just figure out why I've put up with his antics for such a long time, or why I ended up with this man in the first place, I'd feel even better. I want to learn this lesson and graduate!

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Now if I could just figure out why I've put up with his antics for such a long time, or why I ended up with this man in the first place, I'd feel even better. I want to learn this lesson and graduate!<hr></blockquote><p>LH,
I now KNOW why I got into this (overly responsible, not recognizing the passiveness, too eager to help...). But that was 19 years ago! I've been working on changes since then and have much better boundaries. What I'm struggling with is: why do I have to stay? Or do I? How does this all fit with my faith in God and being obedient to Him? If a husband never changes and the situation is unhealthy and hurtful the way it is (which it is with passive aggressives - you live with constant subtle hostility and opposition), does God still require us to stay? It is a tough spot. These are the kinds of questions I have to work through now. There must be a place where both our faith and being in a healthier situation fit together. <p>You can find that book (Living with the Passive Aggressive Man) on that web site (or on Amazon).

First, I will apologize for any confusion that going back to my old name might cause. I was Nyneve, but a long time ago I was new_beginning. I changed my name and had a whopping huge sig line with too much info that I want to move forward AWAY from. I think that this fits with what you two are saying.<p>I struggle very much with the whole concept of "true marriage" and what it means as a Christian. I am in my second marriage, and questioned if it was even valid -- almost right from the beginning. My first marriage lasted 20 years, and I loved him, in spite of some abuse issues, not even counting the five affairs he had. I never handled the boundaries well at all, and spent more time over the last three years of marriage huddled on the bathroom floor crying than in the sunlight, or the SONlight. <p>So, I did the unthinkable, had a one-time hop in the sack with a opportunistic man who could see me spiriling downward (not to take ANY responsibility away from ME for MY actions)... which brought about their own changes in my marriage. Things got worse -- MUCH WORSE.<p>So, I took the bull by the horns, sorta, and I am in a new, safe, loving, light-filled marriage. But if you've read my stuff lately, you'll know that despite all that goodness, life has been a hell on earth. Why?<p>There must be a balance -- BUT WHERE?<p>Just commisserating (sp?) with you two, and wondering what the TRUTH is...

Sheryl,<p>Thanks for adding to this thread. You are on the "other side" and I appreciate your perspective. To be honest, I often find myself jealous of people able to make those choices, yet I feel confined by my "conscience". I don't think God meant our faith to be a confinement (as in a prison), yet there are parameters around it that do restrain some of the choices we might make. I'm still trying to figure it out for myself.<p>You also ask "WHY"? I'm reading Disappointment with God (Yancy) right now and there was a point in it that helped me. When unfair things happen (or hardship) we might wonder if God is unfair. This world has a lot of those kinds of hard things that we can't make sense out of. Yancy said it isn't that God is unfair - but LIFE
is! And God does not rescue us from all of life's unfairness. Our hardships may be due to others' sins, our own, or just natural consequences of this broken, fallen world (such as sickness...) Realizing that helps me to not always keep seeking an answer to my WHY questions. I may not receive one in this world. It does make me face realities and see what my choices are.
Anyway, thanks for your perspective. Life here on earth is hard. But it is temporary in the eternal scheme of things - and the hardships are never fruitless if we seek what God is doing and learn from the trials.<p>In the meantime, I'm praying for a light-filled, loving, open marriage as well - however God may bring it about.<p>[ December 18, 2001: Message edited by: siftedlikewheat ]</p>

Part of the reason I've moved at a snail's pace in making changes in my life is trying to figure out what it is about ME that got me into this spot. I can rattle off a lengthy laundry list of things he's done that are terrible, but I'm the one who chose him. I'm the one who turned a blind eye to the red flags from early on. I try so hard to figure out whats wrong with ME? It will follow me wherever I go until I figure it out. <p>Sheryl, do you feel like something unresolved from your first marriage is following you to this day? You're such a warm, loving caring person! I appreciate you so much. Dang it all... get happy! <p>SLW, your most recent reading choice sounds interesting. As I face the consequences of bad choices I've made, I've spent a major portion of my prayer time asking to be rescued. It's not happening (at least not according to MY rescue preference). Perhaps it's a childish thing to expect a rescue, and perhaps it's time to put childish things away. I don't expect things to be easy, nor do I even desire a life on "easy street." Oh, how I'd love a rescue though. Maybe part of my problem is asking for the wrong thing. <p>I feel fairly certain of one part of my lesson plan though. I'm holding together in the face of major stress right now. I found my H's most recent webpage. It said his website "will soon close and die among the archives in cyber heaven, this is the last page. A thanks to one and all for stopping by." He posted his latest piece of artwork that was a self portrait of sorts and very dark. He was alone in a landscape and he looked like he was disintegrating and being swallowed by a swirl of stars. Yikes!<p>He insists that he would never harm himself, but his dark moods, refusals to discuss the future, saying there is no future, that he won't be around... well, what would you think? Then Monday morning he wasn't at work. I printed out his pages and artwork and gave them to my counselor with a note that I'm very worried about H. She called me at work 30 minutes later very concerned. She was worried he was suicidal and advised me to call the police to have him evaluated. In the old days, I would have been crying my eyeballs out and feeling like all this was my fault. Today I kept my composure and just kept on working. <p>As it turns out, he was late Monday and was at work again today. His job is his lifeline at this point, and he already quit without notice once this month. He's lucky to be taken back. Tonight he showed up at the front door. Same ole same ole. Talked about himself, didn't ask about me. He seems to understand that he needs counselling and a place of his own. I see that as progress. He's sleeping on the couch as I type this. I've never been a rock of gibraltor myself, but I'm finding strength I never had before. For that I am grateful. If that's the sum total of my lesson plan, I think I'm gonna pass. I'd better be careful about what I say! I'll probably get a pop quiz tomorrow.

Hi again Ladies,<p>Sit back, get a cuppa, because this will be kinda long... <p>Today is my birthday. I am 43 years old. Several months before I turned 40 my world turned upside down, although I didn't see what was happening until years later. I'm in a reflective mood yet again today, maybe just because it's a marker of sorts, being my birthday and all.<p>Oh yes, my first marriage follows me -- or better yet, it hangs from my neck - like an albatross. I don't know why, seriously. That's part of what I'm working on lately.<p>Is it because it ended, and I never thought it would? Twenty years is a LONG time to try and then be a failure.<p>Is it because I loved him so much, despite the "issues"? <p>Or is it that I don't deserve to be happy? <p>My therapist, and frankly the therapists before her, including one who was a priest, have told me that I was in an "abusive" marriage. I DID NOT see it that way until it was over. I knew there were problems, sure... but ABUSE? No. That I spent years crying and depressed only meant that there was something wrong with ME - at least in my eyes. <p>You've heard the saying about the "grass not being greener"... and sometimes it's said that "it's greener where you water it"... part of what I'm trying to determine is if I indeed watered it in my past marriage, and if so, why didn't it grow? See, part of my problem, and part of "our" collective problem as Christians, I think, is that we take too much responsibility upon our shoulders. I wasn't the **only one** in that marriage, and I'm not the **only one** here. It wasn't/isn't all my responsibility to fix. <p>This is my "problem" (if you will) with POPW right now. I am loathe to pick up the book. It's as if I'm being told "Pray hard enough" and all will be better. I know, I know, it's on GOD'S shoulders, not mine, but I have to do something first (pray) and it's all up to me, as a praying wife. I know, I probably skewed it all out of balance, but shoot, my prior marriage was prayed for sooooo much, and I had POPW years ago. I prayed, believe me, and during one of the most strong periods for me as a Christian wife, my (then)H cheated on me, with a Bible-believing Christian. Funny too, that in the end, it was the same. His last OW, number five, the one he slept with a week before he moved back home the last time, was a woman from his church. <p>So yes, I am on the "other side" but not far... not far enough... even though I **should** be. I am about as far removed from my ex as humanly possible (4000 miles to be exact) but that carries a price. I am far removed from my kids (no matter how old they are, or how well prepared they were for my move, or how mature, or how understanding, IT HAS KILLED ME AS A MOTHER), and from my family (my grandmother turned 90 last month, and my parents, although healthy now, have had BIG TIME health issues, inc. cancer, so it's hard.) But again, I MADE THIS CHOICE, so I live with the consequences of that choice. <p>On one side, I have my H, who as I've said, is light personified. **This** is what a H should treat a wife like -- the man is a gift!! On the other side I have my whole entire life up until now. The problem has been, in the last year or so, that all of my prior life, good and bad, is rolled up into one big ball of memories, and teasing it apart into "save and throw away" has been difficult, if not impossible.<p>THIS IS WHY I AM NOT HAPPY. <p>I miss my life, but I love my H. I seemingly can't have both. So I either have to sit and wait, or be proactive. Being proactive means DOING SOMETHING again, and I'm tired. I just wish, for once, things would work out "just because"... <p>I am sure ya'll must wish the same???<p>Here we are, Christian wives, trying so hard to be loving and kind, supportive and spirit-filled, deeply feeling and yet able to have fun, sexy, communicative -- all these wonderful feminine things rolled up into a Proverbs wife package. We are trying to give our H's the rightful place in our lives, on this planet, as leaders... surely, SURELY, we should be blessed for this? Right?<p>So why are we suffering so?<p>I know God didn't say life would be fair. I don't expect fair. I guess that's too much to ask for... judging by the caliber of woman I see here (the HIGHEST!!) and the fact that we all struggle through... I don't know... I guess I just expected to be blessed, despite my oh-too-human frailties.<p>Okay, I'll stop (collective sigh of relief from the masses)... truly feeling reflective today. Three years ago I wondered if I'd even make it to today. There were many days I wanted to die. One need only go back here, on MB, and read my rambliings in 1999 to see where my head was "at" -- and it wasn't pretty, and hasn't been pretty for all these years. <p>But, life has a way of plugging along, doesn't it? So, I thank God that He didn't take me when I asked him to, and for the opportunity to begin again with my husband. I am blessed, I know it in my heart -- just wish my head would follow.<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: new_beginning ]</p>

Sheryl,<p>HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!! <p>I enjoyed your musings and they make a lot of sense to me. Sometimes we just have to rest amidst the "not-knowing" and know it is ok to not have it all figured out yet. SO, hope you can allow yourself to ponder and yet still be at rest and peace today - even without answers!<p>I can imagine it would be hard to sort out the "last 20 years" from the present. It is all still new for you and you are probably grieving some of the loss of the past, even though you know you have moved forward into a more life-giving relationship. It is still a good choice, time will heal you more. By the way, I have thought too, if I just prayed hard enough or had enough faith, the relationship would be better - but it is made up of two people and we can't control the other person and the choices they make. Facing a failed marriage makes us feel like our faith failed - and keeps us in denial for a long time before we face the reality. Don't forget that God's relationship to Israel is broken also - in a sense he divorced Israel because of their stubborn and idolatrous ways. Was it because He was not loving enough, didn't have enough faith, or fell short Himself somehow? Of course, not! <p>Enjoy your birthday and the Christmas Season - giving yourself a rest from trying to understand it all right now. (I know this is hard, I've been trying to do it all Christmas season, without too much success!) I just finished a Christmas puzzle I do every year - and how I appreciated giving my mind a rest by working on it. <p>LH,
You are doing so well, much more than you give yourself credit for. Your strength is so evident! You will get through it, though it may seem a snail's pace. I don't really think it is considering the major changes you are having to consider. Keep with what you know is true - the behavior of passive aggressives can confuse us and pull us back in again. But when the dust settles you find you are right back where you started from and the relationship hasn't made any real changes at all. Bless you today!<p>[ December 19, 2001: Message edited by: siftedlikewheat ]</p>

Hey Sheryl,<p>
You are blessed, and we are blessed by having YOU. I was just talking to God the other day and thanking him for not granting some of my prayer wishes. I am a strong believer that God ALWAYS answers prayers, but sometimes the answer is a resounding NO!<p>I know that things are difficult right now. I prayer for you and think of you so very often. This will be resolved! Just in God's time, not ours.<p>Love you!<p>Peppermint Patty<p>PS. Have you read SNL's stuff in recovery? Oh how it makes me long for DYLAN to be HERE!

Happy Birthday, Sheryl!<p>LH: You can let go of your guilt now. We are all the same. <p>We meet a man. Hyper-focus on him. Fall into infatuation. Obsess about him and create a powerful fantasy that he is the bestest man in the whole world, or at least in the neighborhood. There is none better, at least for me. Get married or get pregnant or move in with him, giving up our own lives in sacrifice to him, hoping he will just love us and make everything wonderful.<p>After maybe a few weeks or months, but usually years, the fantasy wears off and reality is all too stark. With the scars of a failed relationship we have eyes wide open, or so we think. <p>Repeat cycle.<p>The beauty of MB is that we have the tools to rebuild a relationship from the depths of despair. But only if both parties are reasonably healthy. Substance addiction and frank mental illness negate any work we do.<p>Please forgive yourself. You are not his counselor or a qualified social worker. At some point he needs to take responsibility for getting himself healthy. Be respectable, and self-respecting. Don't worry about being "strong" for now. What does that mean, anyway?<p>Change of subject:<p>Prayer is a two way communication. You have been praying and listening and not hearing. Perhaps God is speaking to your heart and you are listening with your ears? Do you get a feeling of Peace? Do you ask God Yes/No questions? It is very much easier to recognize a "YES" answer to prayer than a "NO" answer. The feeling of peace or warmth or comfort that comes when you have phrased the question properly for God's will to be expressed as a "YES" is unmistakable.<p>God be with you Lonesome Heart!<p>Love,<p>Karenna

Hi again,<p>I won't keep you all, but did want to say thank you for the birthday wishes. And LH, thanks for beginning the thread in EN's... very dear!!!!<p>I will certainly be back later, perhaps tomorrow. My mom and dad sent a gift of Christmas money and we had to promise not to spend it on bills, so we've just returned from a shopping for turkey and all the trimmings, and now thinking about a breadmaker. I think it's a nice way to spend that money... and maybe we'll have enough to go on a date! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Anyway, thanks so much again...<p>With love,
Sheryl