Bystander,<P>What is your point in posting the address to this article? As clearly stated, this is one man's opinion. I didn't read the entire page, but read most. Where is it stated that women leaving for financial gain was definitive? <P>As with any "study" the results can be swayed toward the beliefs of the one conducting the study. I hardly find ample evidence that child support and alimony are why women give up on marriage.<P>Has it ever crossed your mind that women now find it easier to leave a relationship where in the past they may not have be able to, simply because they were forced to endure misery. It was more important to have a roof over her and her children's heads, rather than leave an intolerable situation. In other words, many women stayed in these unions out of fear, financial loss, societal pressures, etc., but, lived a highly miserable life. Just because the financial aspect is often remedied, it certainly doesn't imply that women leave solely for the money aspect. As we all know, you can't live without money. So, if someone in a miserable or dangerous marriage can now leave it, they are somewhat guaranteed to be able to put food on their table and clothes on their back. <P>It did state that during societal economic hardships, there were less divorce rates. But, where's the study on marital satisfaction during this time? During more economically prosperous times women initiated divorce more often, but this can be a result of many, many reasons. Least of which being an unfaithful spouse. As we've seen so often here, the men find it harder to leave the marriage for good. Often precipitating the woman's action for filing for divorce. Hardly a sound reason for advocating that women leave primarily for financial gain. Hey, I think women leave because they've grown tired of trying to get their hardheaded husband's to meet their needs. And I'm sure I could find a study to back that claim. <P><P>------------------<BR>The best and most beautiful things in the world cannot be seen or even touched. They must be felt with the heart.<BR>Helen Keller<BR>

<BR>Distrusting,<P>The minority report criticizes the majority for failing to consider the valid hypothesis that the expectation of favorable treatment of women in divorce and custody courts may be an enabler of divorce. See the quotation I posted earlier in the thread.<P>Your question about economic conditions and perception of happiness in the marriage is an interesting one. I don't have an answer, but it certainly stands to reason if women decide to stay in marriages when conditions look bleak, they would be more likely to file for divorce when conditions (including highly favorable divorce and custody decisions) look better, right? <P>Bystander

Bystander,<P>There is a difference between making it possible for a woman to leave an abusive or otherwise destructive realtionship and still put food on the table for the kids and giving the woman a fincancial windfall (as you are claiming) for getting a divorce.<P>Are you suggesting that a woman should not divorce in those cases? That it should remain impossible for her to feed her children if she leaves an abusive relationship? Or leaves a man who habitually cheats on her?<P>As far as the study goes, just because you have two sets of numbers doesn't mean that it makes sense to link the two together. Especially when other factors (like the conditions of the marriage, the REAL reasons for filing, etc.) are overlooked.

DUH, women actually getting pregnant to get a man's money, HELL YES it happens, ask any professinal sports player out there. But that's not AND was never the topic. It started from the Walk Away Wife syndrom, of the wife leaving husband and not returning compared that to the husbands that leave wives and then return. Then you took this, as you called it "ad", to start your campaign of women divorce because they can always win in court. You want us to read some book that you praise as bible, when there have been plenty of people here to PROVE your theory wrong, silly and humorous! But no, you don't want to have any parts of the facts that are right here. Vitriol? Yes, you've impressed us all that you couldn't use the word angry.

<BR>TruthSeeker,<P>Of course there's a difference between a woman barely putting food on the table and a woman who receives a financial windfall. But either way, a woman going into a divorce court and a custody court has better odds of a positive financial outcome than a man, given $X of assets and income. This unfair financial bias in favor of women lowers their cost of divorce, and hence their demand for divorce is higher.<P>Do other considerations come into play in making a decision to divorce? Obviously. But money IS one of the concerns, and women's behavior reflects this. I'm really amazed that anyone finds this such a shocking assertion. Remove the biases in divorce courts and custody courts and watch the results. I'm with JL, I think the latent demand for divorce is probably 50/50, its just that men KNOW that they are going to be crucified in divorce/custody courts so they delay it as long as possible.<P>As for women leaving abusive situations or philanderers - I wish my mother had done that in the early 1970s. You wouldn't believe the abuse I suffered at the hands of my father. <P>Bystander

<BR>trying2_4give,<P>You and the others haven't proven anything. Anecdote is without scientific merit. Sure, I believe Mitzi's husband is treating her badly. But does that mean that most men don't pay child support? Of course not.<P>Anyhow, Braver's book is the best piece of scholarly research to date - its limited in geographic scope, true enough, but its light years ahead of people posting competing anecdotes.<P>Do women always win in court? No. Do they usually win in court? I'd answer that yes, to be honest. And that expectation translates into their having a lower economic cost of "walking away." Hence the reason I joined the thread. Etc.<P>Anyone want to take this to email? That's a genuine offer. I think most of the MBers are probably sick of us discussing this by now.<P>Bystander

Correction, i think they are just sick of your absurd comments, re: "dead-beat dads are a myth", "women divorce for monetary reasons"; the cost of toothpaste analogy compared to divorce, and the many other things you spewed out in here. End of discussion.

<BR>Trying2_4give,<P>According to the Braver book, deadbeat dads *are* a statistical myth. You can read the book for yourself if you like. You might disagre with him, but that's another issue, really. Do women divorce for money? Some of the time, yes, and in any event, the expected financial outcomes are better for women, which in part could explain their higher rate of filing for divorce. The toothpaste analogy is valid, and it parallels simple supply/demand predictions I'd make in divorce or household commodities.<P>We're going in circles here, I think.<P>Bystander<BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>We're going in circles here, I think.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>D'ya think?<P>It's clear we don't agree on this issue. ButI do agree with one thing. I'm sick of listening to the same argument over and over. If there is at least one person who is suffering because of a deadbeat dad, then they can't be a myth, can they? I offer this as proof that your statistics are flawed.<P>This is all I'm going to say on the subject. The horse is dead, let's stop beating it.

This thread has gone to h*ll in a handbasket.<P>bystander, <P>you can believe everything you read if you want to, but don't try to make us believe it too.<P>you can believe that women only use men for financial gain if you want to, but don't try to make us believe it.<P>you can believe anything you want to believe, but don't try to make us abandon our beliefs and follow yours.<P>that's a very immature attitude <P>that's not what this forum was put here for...<P>Keo

<BR>Truthseeker,<P>There's a difference between "statistical myth" and "complete myth." But you knew that already, didn't you?<P>Bystander

<BR>Keosha,<P>Go back an reread my posts...I've argued that court biases in favor of women incent them to divorce. Its not the only reason that women decide to divorce, obviously, but its part of the reason, and it IMO explains some of the difference in the filing rate between men and women.<P>I agree that this thread is a lost cause. I have argued a reasonable hypothesis based on classic microeconomic theory, and have received little but hostility in return. I never meant to offend anyone (and if I did I'm sorry). But I'm truly amazed at the outright hostility my ideas have met here.<P>Anyhow, I'm leaving this thread - but not MB <P>Bystander

The solution to OW becoming pregnant and suing the guy for support is called a<P>C-O-N-D-O-M.<P>Also, amazingly, works in any situation where the guy doesn't want children. <BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 14, 2000).]

OK, Iv'e seen enough! I'm a little ticked today.<P>HERE IS MY TRUE STORY<P>I started an ambulance service in October of 1995 after leaving a very cushy job with an Advanced Life Support Service in the area. I saw what they were doing wrong, tried to tell them how to fix it, the board of directers weren't interested in hearing from me. Brilliant idea! Start your own service and make the improvements. Just what I did.<P>Obviously being a newby company I wasn't going to kill the project the first years by drawing the same salary that I had for the previous service. I was the highest paid medic because of longevity and position.<P>Domestic relations tagged me at the higher salary [even thou I was in reality bringing home $8,000 less a year] because it was what I was capable of earning. Hell if you want to go by that theory, I could be an Executive Director of Emergency Medical Services in New York and make a six figure salary. Hey, the XW being an RN with a degree would be capable of making more in a Philadelphia hospital being a Nurse Manager in an Intensive Care Unit.<P>What is the point? I was making less and suffering. DomRel didn't give a rats behind. I sent letters and copies of pay stubs. Yeah, the system is fair by no means.<P>BUT, that was not the point of the question first asked unless I'm an really MUD [DUM spelled backwards.]<P>I go with Terri's definition.<P>I don't know if I would consider Val being a WAW. I kicked her out after discovery. The affair had been going on for about a year then. She stayed here.<P>Just my imput.<P>Tim

I agree with Terri upto a point. I don't feel my x told me about all her needs not being met until way after the affair and until we started counseling.<P>She did mention 3-4 times about going to a marriage encounter weekend, but I, like most guys I think, didn't want to go.<P>As for needs not being met, we filled out the EN questionaire. I knew about her feeling about being abandoned and to which I do admit. But the others I had no clue. <P>She said she wanted sex 3x per week. We were down to 1x per 6 weeks. She never wanted sex in morning and worked afternoon shift and every other weekend part time and didn't want me to wait for when she came hoem at night. We barely had 3 nights in a row together. <P>She was always moody and that was a turnoff to me. I don't know whose to blame here, both I guess, why was she so moody and why didn't I try to get her out of the bad moods(she would wake up in a bad mood !). <P>She also said I never appreciated her for all the house work and yard work she did and she always felt I left her too much to do when I traveled. <P>I never demanded or asked that she do yardwork or shovel snow. She always said she liked being outside and doing it. How was I to know deep down she wasn't. OM promised her a smaller house and no yardwork and vacations anytime she wanted.<P>Meanwhile we bought a big house and yard beacuse thats what we wanted. We couldn't take vacations anytimne we wanted because we have KIDS!!!! No she has none of that responsibility and I have it all. Also I don't have somebody paying for everything like her om's mother.<P>She used all of the counseling sessions to slam me and never did give me a chance to show improvement.<P>I don't know if I had a point to this or not know, I got caught up in it!!!<P>Also just saw a statistic that that women suffer a 30% decrease in their standarrd of living after a divorce.<P><BR>I think that for the most part its the 80-20 solution. 20% of the people, deadbeat dads, women leaving for financial reasons, create 80% of the problems and get the most ink.<P><BR>