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One quick last post before I exit for good....<P>LISAM....I think it is unfair that you only quoted parts of my posts....especially the one about "God heals the pain of divorce" You left out my comments and the bullet referring to adultery and how wrong it was. That was the very reason I posted that email I received. I felt it hit home because my pastor had just made me face the fact that I could sugar coat what I was doing by dancing around it but the cold hard fact is that I was committing adultery. My original quote that you left out was: <P>(quote) the first bulleted paragraph really spoke to me. *ouch* <P>* Adultery is evil, and God hates it. Marriage should be honored by all, and the marriage bed kept pure, for God will judge the adulterer and all the sexually immoral (Heb. 13:4). When someone gets involved sexually with a person other than his or her spouse, it's not an affair or fooling around - it's adultery. Adultery cuts at the heart of what it means to be married. When a person is unfaithful, he or she violates a commitment designed to mirror the faithfulness of God Himself.<P>Another one that you didn't bother to add my whole quote was where I posted to Lost11. She had said the the MM's wife told him she didn't want to "fix things" and that Lost was free to have the MM. I said my first reaction is "lucky you" but then I went on to say:<P>(quote) but then my 2nd reaction is "poor you" because you have such a hard road ahead of you and some tough decisions to make if indeed his wife has kicked him out. <P>I hope that if you decide to analyze someone else's intentions in the future that you are at least fair about it and include all the quote so people get the correct context of what is being said.<P>Lastly, could it be since you were admittedly the "queen of headgames" you maybe, just maybe are assuming I am when in fact, I am just a mixed up woman in love with the wrong man???? <P>I had hoped this forum was going to help both WTD and I conquer this addiction. I wish it didn't come to this. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Are you both still out there?<P>You both sound like good people. You have fallen head over heels in love with eachother, but you both know it is wrong. I think everyone here wants what is good and right for both of you, and for the third person who doesn't even know she's the third person. Or at least won't admit it to herself yet.<P>This is an incredibly difficult time for you both, and it is hard for your wife, WTD, as well, although she doesn't know why things are so hard.<P>If you are truly made for eachother, your relationship will withstand you telling your wife about this affair, WTD, and trying to see if you two can work it out.<P>Right now you are being horribly unfair to your wife. She might turn out to really be the woman of your dreams once you tell her how unhappy you are. It's going to crush her to hear about this, but you have to tell her. You have to give her the chance to work on her marriage.<P>It might be irrepairable. But only you AND YOUR WIFE can make that decision. It isn't fair to make that decision on your own.<P>AZ loves you enough to encourage you to find what is right. Do you love yourself enough to take her up on her offer?<P>AZ--you did a good thing to bring WTD here.<BR>WTD--you were very courageous to post here.<BR>Fellow MarriageBuilders--let's not make them feel like it's them against the world. They both need our hugs.<P>Best wishes to you both, and to your wife, WTD.

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WTD, <P>Are you really that stupid?<P>Read carefully what the others have posted here. Realize that what you and your ow have is a sexual attraction.<P>Go to Fayetteville or to any other big city in NC, hire yourself a professional, and you will have that same "closeness" that you seem to be addicted to with AZ. Then get off it and go home to your family and be a real man.<P>To AZ, get off your high horse and stop trying to steal someone else's husband. He lives in NC, and you can buy yourself an expensive lawsuit for Alienation of Affections. That tort was made for the two of you. Before you play around anymore with the stakes involved including your young children and his, go rent the movie (set in NC), THE PRICE OF A BROKEN HEART!<P>Both of you need to stop rationalizing and show some real character!

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i WILL NOT BE AS RUDE AS SOME OF THE OTHERS....BUT look at your wife...imagine her a single woman....she would be more exciting to you then....ive been where you are after 9 years of being with someone i cheated for 6 long months.....and i still think about the guy everyday and he was so perfect...but put him in my husbands shoes and he is just a plain ordinary guy...switch your wifes role with your lovers role...and see them as they really are

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<B>whattodo? </B>:<P>After reading carefully everything you've written, I've come to an awful conclusion: you've never truly respected or loved your wife. Who knows why you married? <I>~ not me ~</I> ...but the sad fact of it all is that your marriage has always been, and likely always will be, an unhealthy relationship.<P>It seems to me that the only reason why you remain married is because you feel secure. You feel very comfortable and safe with your marriage - you have no sense of obligation or committment. Ample evidence of this is found in your own description of how you treat your wife, marriage and children. You simply do not care about your wife and children as much as you care about yourself and your desires - you don't really love anybody but yourself.<P>You have had multiple affairs, yet you've only had feelings for one of the persons with whom you've betrayed your wife with. As I read this, it became evident that you have great difficulties forming real relationships with people, that you often delve into fantasy to escape whatever reality you find unpleasant or don't want to deal with. Your marriage is, and has always been, an illusion, part of the lie you've told yourself. Suddenly you've woken up (a little) and found that there is something that you truly do want in life.<P>Be very, very careful... You're interested in this person (OW) because you think that they're different, because you believe that they're unique and special. They're not. They're a person like you who excels at escaping reality into fantasy. A person whose whole life and personality is a shallow facade. You're so very captivated because, finally, you've found your mirror image. Like Narcissus, you're entranced by the rare specimen you believe you've found whileas in reality you're only staring back at yourself (albeit your female counterpart). As a warning, this person will destroy you - and you will destroy them, utterly. I can only say the one positive thing that may result if you two get together is that you may finally succeed in destroying each other's fantasy world, and hopefully at least one of you will make it back to reality and try living in the real world for a change.<P>I'm not going to tell you to salvage your marriage, because in my opinion, your marriage never really was real. I think you should ask your wife for a divorce, and simply go your separate ways as amicably as you can. After all, you do have children, and they don't deserve to be traumatized by either a messy divorce, or by having you around to hurt them and their mother futher. <P><B>azhootie</B> :<P>Your actions and words are not Christian in any which way, shape, or form. Truthfully speaking, if you were a Christian, you would understand the phrase <I>Do unto others as you would have others do unto you</I>, and you would act and speak far differently than you do now, and than you have in the past. Either stop pretending to be something you're not, or make the changes to become what you profess you are and which you claim you want to become.<P>Your attitude is one of intolerance. You want to control exactly where your relationship with your MP went - you wanted all the hows, whys, whens, and wheres right under your thumb. You wanted to be always in the right and be the victim trying to do the right thing. A harsh reality check: you are <B>not</B> as pure as the driven snow. You've done this all to yourself. You're living a fantasy and a lie, albeit a different one than what you were living when you were (or are you still?) actively in a relationship with a MP. When reality is too much for you, you create an easy out, a fantasy to escape into, one in which you can ignore that which you find unpleasant or don't want to deal with...<P>Snap out of it. Deal with it. Either get involved with this MP or leave completely. You can't have it both ways. If you tell yourself you can, or that you're only attempting to ease out of everything gracefully or gently, you're deluding and hurting only yourself. You're not here because you want support or advice; you're here because you want justifications and rationalisations for the actions that you yourself know (deep down inside) don't make any sense. You're here to help solidify your own illusions to yourself, nothing else. <P>Your presence here is all just another lie you've fabricated, another fantasy to help you sleep at night, so you can still look at yourself in the mirror. You're only here because your last fantasy became too uncomfortably real for you to handle, and you found yourself and easy out into a different fantasy world, one where you can portray yourself as blameless and as a good person. All I can say is that I'm not deceived. I've spent enough time listening to and being told the type of lies you've writing to recognize them in my sleep.<P>You don't want people to analyze what you write and to take you at face value because you yourself know that everything you've written falls apart under scrutiny.<P>The two of you are mirror images of deceivers, of con artists, of hollow shells of human beings. You are entranced by each other because you've never encountered another one like yourself before. Just remember - unlike the rest of the universe, in which like compliments like, the two of you will likely destroy each other if you remain together. However, I couldn't think of a more fitting or deserving fate for either of you.<P>If you're serious about being a Christian then act like one. Start out by living your life by the golden rule I wrote out. Either that, or fold to your nature and behave as you truly wish to desire. Then, as I told your MP, either you will both destroy each other or you will succeed in destroying the lie which both your lives have always been.<P>You are both very sick, self-destructive vampyres. I just hope you don't take down too many innocents with you when you finally go up in flames.<P>------------------<BR>~~ Elixir ~~<P>

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Elixir:<BR>sorry....read next one<BR><p>[This message has been edited by whattodo? (edited March 22, 2000).]

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TO ELIXIR:<P>Who the h*** do you think you are? You've analyzed my entire life from the 2 paragraphs I posted? What "holier than thou" rock did you crawl out from under?<P>People come to this board for advice, not to be judged by some looser like you. You know NOTHING about me or my life to allow you to write such a rambling diatribe. You are entitled to your opinions, but what value do you think they serve on this thread? This board is for help and support..... If you just want to pass judgement without an effort to help, I would think you could find some other place to post(like back under your rock).

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To all who have provided their insight and advice:<P>THANKS!!!! <P>Sorry I haven't posted back more often, but I've not had much time or desire. I've made what possibly was the hardest decision of my life today....to break off contact with the OW(AZ) and try to work on my marriage. <P>In my mind, I know that I owe it to everyone involved.....but it still seems so hard to give up on the special feelings we brought into each others lives. I've read many posts that talk of an affair like an addiction....and I can honestly say that it is. I hope I have the strength to follow through on my decision since I know that if I get another "taste", I'll be hooked all over again.<P>I'm not sure how I will "work on my marriage" yet, but I know that I need to begin by reading some of the basic concepts and links provided by NSF(thanks for pointing to them in your post).<P>At this point, It seems that disclosure of the affair seems to be a key point in starting the healing process, but I'm not ready for that yet. I was going to begin by addressing the state of mutual unhappiness in our marriage, and how to work together towards correcting it. <P>She(wife)had actually bought the "5 love languages" book in the last year or so....we both read it, but I never really tried to follow through since AZ was still in my heart/mind and soul. I know she has been feeling the distance increase in our relationship as time has progressed.<P>Thanks again for all the heartfelt advice. I may be back for advice as I try to heal, but I think I will have to change my name to avoid all of the hostility this thread has generated.<P>The one question on my mind at this early point, is will I ever be able to get the OW out of my mind? Will I ever be able free from making mental comparisons? Will I ever be able to achieve in my marriage the same type of intense feelings of love and happiness that I was addicted to in the affair?.....guess that was really three questions

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One of the most contrived efforts I've ever seen on the board to get the MM to leave the wife.<P>I'll save you the trouble, cut & paste. <P>Dear Tempest,<BR>InShock is really mean to me.

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Whattodo:<P>I'm sorry, but I have to ask this: Is your name really Arik?

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Hi Whattodo? -<P>First, I would like to welcome you to MB. I have been here awhile and KNOW that you will find the support, advice, help, compassion and - yes, even the very strongly stated opinions given - to be of tremendous strength to you if you take it all in, think long and hard on it and then adapt what applies and ignore what doesn't......<P>The one thing about message boards that I have learned and have no problem implementing is to read all that is written, revel in what is insightful and compassionate and try to understand the perspective of the posts I find offensive. <P>Everyone here has been touched (and in some cases stabbed repeatedly with a sharp sword!!) by this infidelity monster that is eating up society. There are all sorts of reasons for it and the main thing to keep in mind is that PAIN is prevalant within it's hellish triangle walls. EVERYONE involved feels pain......<P>What we all try to do, if we can see through our pain enough, is to look at the whys, the hows, the what ifs and the "what to dos"!!! During this process, we vent and rant and rave......when a chance comes up to help someone in making a decision (such as you are on the brink of) we all get a little frenzied in trying to help the person "on the brink" make the decision to look deep within themselves, look deeply at their lives with their spouse and look long and hard at the repercussions us "adults" submit our children to.<P>In this "frenzy", some can get very emotional.....perhaps there is some truth to their words, perhaps not...<P>Perhaps there are better ways to endear the meaning of their words to you...perhaps you need to hear the calm and the storm... <P>I don't know what will influence you - because, as you have pointed out, I (like most here) don't know you. <P>As I said before, though.....I do know that this place CAN HELP YOU!! That is of course, only if you want to be helped. If you REALLY open your mind up to what is being said and WHY. Not all people are going to be tactful and hold your hand to walk you through it. Just like Not ALL people will seem to be angry or nasty or blunt. It's a mixed bag.....but hey, that's how life is - the good, the bad and the middle of the road. I will say that ALL of the replies you get, will have some value if you look through the messenger and concentrate on the message. If the message doesn't fit, then - good - there's one hurdle you don't have to worry about. Just make sure you are being honest with your self analysis. Only you can do that!!!<P>Now I hope you don't mind if I throw my two cents in.....if you have read this far, I guess you don't! ( I can get a little wordy, Huh? - sorry!! LOL!!)<P>I am very glad that OW has directed you here....I think that is wonderful!! I do have a problem with her remaining and interacting while you are here though!!<BR>It's EXTREMELY counter-productive!! The only way you can make any rational decision at all is without any contact from her.....as long as you are in contact NO PART OF YOUR BRAIN will be into making an objective and thoughtful decision. It's just a fact!!! <P>That said - the first decision you must make is if you are going to at least stop contact until your decision to make a TRULY UNINFLUENCED decision is made!! Geez, look how complicated this is - it only gets harder, so buckle up!!!<P>What I would like to do is to talk very plainly - and possibly very painfully - to you....so be prepared. It is not being mean - it is simply the reality of the situation. OK? I am a Wife, from the sounds of it - I am very much like your wife as far as the situation. <P>I have been living this nightmare for six years (that I know of!) and to this day I do not know WHY my husband has behaved the way he has......you see, he never talked to me!! I have been in limbo all this time - do you have any idea what LIMBO is like? You think you are in pain.....you at least KNOW what you are agonizing over. I didn't even have that much. JUST KNEW that my H wasn't "one" with me anymore and had no idea why, how, who, what....came along and changed that!!!<P>I wrote him letters, tried to talk to him, went overboard with "caring" for him....HE became my total focus in the middle of major personal crisis' that were happening in my life. I just wanted to know what was wrong. NO, sex wasn't great, nothing was great!!!! How could it be when there was this chasm between us and he cut the ropes that held the bridge up!!!<P>My point, YOUR WIFE is in agony!!! YOU hold the key......Let me take a guess and say that the tension is building so much in your house that you don't even want to be there. Am I right? If it's not at an almost unbearable level now - it will be soon. WHY does it have to get there. TALK to your wife - she thinks of this scenario, I guarantee it!! Her thoughts can be far worse for her than the truth, believe me - I have lived it!!!<P>My H was ultimatumed right out of our house....we went away for a weekend and the OW threw a fit and then it was "her or me" time........He chose her. He moved out by the next weekend. That was last June. He filed for divorce two weeks later after telling me that we were going to take some time apart to "think".....yeah, right!!<P>Problem was, I didn't know what I was supposed to be thinking about!! He never said what his problems were with me, us, or whatever.<P>My story is all over these boards, read them if you want......he STILL hasn't talked to me. The man I love with every fiber in my being and he just ran away from home!!!! My question is WHAT is he REALLY running from?<P>He needs to take a good look at himself, because I have realized that there are TWO people in a marriage. That means two different perspectives of what is going on or not going on. It will (and should) take both of you to decide what is the truth of the situation.<P>PLEASE give her that chance.......<P>Thanks for listening to my prattling for so long. I am sorry that you have found yourself in this situation. I believe that you have the power to make your marriage whatever you want it to be. I hope that you take the opportunity to find out exactly what you want for your life and what you want to be able to be proud of for your life and leave for your kids to learn from.<P>Good Luck, God Bless, I'm here for you if you choose to stay....<P>Hugs,<P>Sheba

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WTD -<P>Hey, you posted as I did.....<P>GLAD to hear of your decision and in answer to your questions about OW -<P>Quite simply - IF YOU REALLY WANT TO AND TRY you can do anything!!! Your wife and children and especially yourself deserve that!!!!<P>Big Hugs,<P>Sheba<BR>

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What to do? You really want to know what to do? Cry. Give yourself permission to cry and mourn intensely for a set period of time. A week. Two days. Whatever you decide. Not too long. You can feel as sorry for yourself as you want. Then take on your life. If/when you need to you can take another day now and then to be weepy and self pitying. It really helped me break off when I did mourning in advance and in intense stages. I spent six months going through it one time and would have been less if I had scheduled it and permitted it.<P>Once I was mourning a husband, twice I have mourned potential OM. Keeps the weight off and I don't need anti-depressants when tears and intense feeling are allow to flow freely.

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whattodo?,<P>I commend your decision...<P>It must have been very hard, since a person's natural inclination is to fight the advice of those that scold...<P>Please do read everything from these sites...<P>The book you mentioned...<A HREF="http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/1881273156" TARGET=_blank><B>The Five Love Languages :</B> How to Express Heartfelt Commitment to Your Mate</A> by Gary Chapman is highly reommended by some of our veterans (HGBrawner... she is remarkable)! A good supplement to the Harley books too!<P>Do check out the <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum29/HTML/000013.html" TARGET=_blank>Notable Posts/Threads</A> post for reference to all that has been offered by forum members past and present!<P>As Sheba recommends... please... stop all contact with azhootie...<BR>...it is the only way!<P>You are welcomed... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Jim

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Hello What To Do,<BR> Just want to welcome you to Marriage Builders.Glad to hear you've decided to break contact with OW.Your children will be forever grateful,even though they may never know it. All children need a father,and the most precious gift you can give them is to love their mother.<BR> My H and I also married very young(24) and were already parents of an 18 month old son. We had good early years.He's said in the last two years(during his EA) that we never had much passion,that he was not l "in love " anymore and that I deserved better,as I was, as you say of your wife, "a great mother and good to him". His affair and depression deleted his memory of how wonderful our relationship was for years,how much passion and fun and true lovingness we shared. We had a number of years that were tremendously stressful due to parenting a handicapped child and we grew distant,he focusing on work and sports and I on rehabilitating our child. He felt neglected and became depressed,although he would never admit his depression.Depression manifests itself so differently in men,not the typical weepy,crying, can't function stuff so many women experience.He turned to OW for emotional support,and I like your wife senced the pulling away and distance,and asked a number of times if there was someone else.I always got a "no". I begged in several letters over the years for us to get back on track so that we coud feel the way we once did about each other. Honestly,I was just about as "affair ready" as he,as my needs had been neglected for several years and I tolerated his angry outbursts that hurt deep to the core. He hated to come home as OW made him feel sooo wonderful while he was at work.He, like you, had met her on a business trip. They had a long distance relationship via e-mail and phone,there was never any way for me to compete with her,I never knew and even if I did,how COULD I compete with a woman who could say anything and be anyone......she didn't live day to day with him and wasn't in his face coping with the reality of the every day stress and strife of a three child family and a handicapped child on top of the normal stuff.<BR> He asked to separate so that he could "think". He said he was no longer "in love" with me and no longer found me sexually attractive(ouch!).he didn't know if I " was the right person" for him. Again I asked if there was someone else,"NO" ,he said.He cried over feeling as if he had no choice but to leave me and his kids to sort things out. He was overcome with grief at the thought of not living day to day with his children.Two weeks later I discovered his affair,as he was planning to meet up with her again to make his EA a PA,their relationship had progressed. I have never felt such pain in my life,worse than the deaths of my brother and my father.<BR> We separated for 2 months,he bravely cut off all contact with OW and we both went into counseling separately.He could not stand being without his precious children and missed me more than he ever thought he would.At first it was very stressful and tense,but he realized quickly,once there was no contact with OW,that he actually still did feel "in love" with me.He had just simply quit giving me and himself the chance to feel those things when he was so focused on Ow,whom he felt was his "soulmate".<BR> He has been home now for 3 months. We are 6 months past discovery. We are so much "in love" again.He says he has a new found love and respect for me like never before. My forgiveness of his weakness made him see just how deep my love for him is.It overwhelmed him. I got an e-mail from him just today saying "Damn, I love you".It amazing how far we've come and the intensity of feelings we BOTH feel once again.It is nothing short of a miracle. <BR> God works in very strange ways sometimes. I hate to say it, but I am somewhat grateful(cringe) for my H's affair.It was the wake up call we desperately needed,although I wish that wake up call didn't need to be so painful.I wonder if we ever would have had the impetus to make all the changes we needed to,to have the wonderful changed relationship we have now,with a deep mutual love and respect. I don't think we will ever again take each for granted again. What the devil intended for evil, God intended for good.<BR> You too, What To Do,can have a new marriage...to your wife. It is hard,there is lots of work and pain,but it will be the most satifying endeavor and your reward will be great and effect so many. Your wife has tried to reach you,she wants to make things better,give her the chance,you owe it to your children if no one else.The best way to get started is to NEVER have contact with OW again. No use to delay the inevitable withdrawl you will experience. God bless you and your family,be strong and keep your promises from here on out!

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Why not just answer the man's question? He was asking for help to fight his feelings for OW when he wasn't feeling anything for his wife and was pretty certain he never did.<P>Instead you insulted both of them. I suggest you take your well justified anger, hurt, bitterness, and disgust someplace where it could do some good. How hard it must be to know your spouse can offer their heart and soul and their body to love another more than they ever remember loving you, when you've been the "brussel sprouts" as someone posted on this thread.<P>I don't blame any of you for not having any patience or compassion for another potential "homewrecker." <BR> <BR>But isn't it obvious that people here are not the typical homewrecker? You aren't going to find many of the betrayers that dumped their spouses for the OP posting here. <P>Let's face it, the betrayers justify why they betrayed, whether it's true or not.<BR>If they feel remorse, doubt, guilt or have second thoughts about leaving their marriages, then don't you think they deserve some respect and kindness rather than a slap on the wrist. Believe me, they've beaten themselves up more than you could ever do. They can't even enjoy their love for each other completely because of the tremendous pain they are feeling. (I know you are pulling out your violins to play for them) <P>Once you make your mind up to work on your marriage, this is the place you want to be. The fact that you came here shows you have enough of a conscious to at least try to do the right thing. Your morals and/or guilt are stronger than the love and/or happiness you feel for the OP.<P>WTD,<P>I originally posted here wanting to know the same thing you did. I learned quickly that because this is a marriage builder's site, that any advice I would receive would be pushing for saving the marriage. In my case, I'm already divorced but living with the guilt of making the wrong decision.<P>I'm still fighting with this issue. Your thread caught my attention and I'm glad to see you've made a decision. Your decision may change in the future but you've taken the hardest step. Take one minute at a time and then one hour, then one day. When the feelings are as intense as I know yours are for your OW, one day feels like an eternity.<P>There are many caring, wonderful, and insightful people that post on MB. I hope you aren't turned off by the negativity. I don't think AZ would've sent you here if she didn't feel this was a safe compassionate forum. <P>You both know your situation is wrong. Everyone only thinks about the pain of the betrayed. Unless they've been in your shoes they can't imagine the pain you are in. The pain comes from the guilt of betraying, the pain of being away from the one you love so deeply, and the pain of making a decision.<P>Making a decision to do what you know is right verses making a decision to do what feels so intense and real and wonderful. Whether it turns out to be a fantasy or not, at the present, IT FEELS AUTHENTIC AND WONDERFUL.

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by peppermint:<BR><B>Whattodo:<P>I'm sorry, but I have to ask this: Is your name really Arik?</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No....but I guess we must have similar problems from the sound of the question.<P>

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What to do,<BR>Listen to mthrhbard. My H went through the same thing. He didn't think he could ever get over the OW. He didn't think we could ever recover the love and passion he felt for her. BUT, it's only been TWO WEEKS since he finally turned away from her completely. And, it is like stopping taking a drug, because now he says how much he loves me. He can't imagine why he didn't see it before. Our passion for each is like newlyweds now and we are both completely aware of our relationship and what we need to do to keep it going right. He now says he'll never leave me, that he loves me too much. You can feel this way too, but you must turn your heart away from the OW and focus on the strengths and positives in your wife. When you disclose your affair, be prepared. Like many others have said on this forum, the pain is worse than anything she will ever experience - much worse than the death of a loved one. But you must do this in order to go forward. Be assured that you are doing the right thing, however painful it feels right now. Good luck, be well, and may the Power of the Universe be with you.

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Oh, I know I am going to get some fallout for this. However, I simply cannot tolerate self-obsessed, self-righteous abusive betrayers...<P><B>whattodo</B> :<P><I>Who the h*** do you think you are? You've analyzed my entire life from the 2 paragraphs I posted? What "holier than thou" rock did you crawl out from under?</I><P>I am a person who survived a relationship with a person who was (unfortunately) <I>just like you.</I> A person whose entire life and personality was a lie even to themselves. It's unfortunate but I was subjected to a abuse from a lying addict for so many years that when I see it again I am able to spot it instantly. Your reaction is <I>exactly</I> like that of a person who is addicted to lying; denial and outrage - you don't want your fantasy-world bubble popped and anything that threatens it terrifies and enrages you. <P>All I can say is wake up! Either sink further into denial and make your life more of a lie or try living in reality for a change. You are an abusive person - perhaps not physically, but you torture the people around you mentally and emotionally. You make yourself feel good at other people's expense. I find that reprehensible!<P>What rock did I crawl out from under? An emotionally and mentally abusive relationship with a person <I>just like you.</I> How can I analyse your life from the little you wrote? It's easy - you've said all the same b.s. lies, self-justifications and self-rationalizations that my X used to say. After seven years of extensive "training" with a professional liar, I can now spot your type a mile away.<P><I>People come to this board for advice, not to be judged by some looser like you.</I><P>True, nobody likes or wants to be judged. Nor should they most of the time. However, you asked whether or not you should stay with your wife and children or leave for your lover. I honestly and truly believe it'd be best for everybody if you left. I normally wouldn't say such a thing, but by the things you wrote about yourself, you can't be any good for your wife or your kids. Therefore in my judgement it's best if you remove yourself.<P>I know I'm no loser, I'm a survivor and a winner. I survived an abusive, controlling, lying jerk and triumphed over his best efforts to destroy me. Unlike yourself, who is a self-confessed loser (betrayer) whose entire existence was built up at the expense of those whom they supposedly should love most in life. If you don't want advice, don't ask for it!!! <P><I>You know NOTHING about me or my life to allow you to write such a rambling diatribe.</I><P>I only know what you've chosen to tell us - and what you've chosen to share isn't very flattering at all to yourself. You come off as a cold-hearted, selfish, self-centered, lying serial philanderer. You don't care for your wife and very little for your children. Remember we only know what we tell us, and so far you haven't said <I>anything</I> nice about yourself at all! <P>So what else is there to know about you? Is there <I>anything</I> good about you, or is what you've written all there is to know?? If that's true, that's very, very sad indeed.<P><I>You are entitled to your opinions, but what value do you think they serve on this thread? This board is for help and support..... If you just want to pass judgement without an effort to help, I would think you could find some other place to post(like back under your rock).</I> <P>You asked for opinions and advice. You got some you didn't expect and it makes you angry. Poor insecure baby, my opinion didn't comfort you and tell you that everything was going to be alright and that you weren't a bad guy. Well, too bad. Life isn't fair. Get used to it, and grow up and take responsibility for your life instead of whining and constantly trying to escape from it!<P>Help and support do not always necessarily mean that people will coddle you. Nor should it. I'm not lying to you, I'm giving you my honest opinion. If you want to be lied to and have people support you no matter what you do there are other boards that will do that. At MB I think honesty and real advice and opinions always come first.<P>If you only want support and no real help, maybe you should be the one looking for a rock to crawl under. After all, that seems to be where you've been living your whole life.<P>My sympathies to your wife and children. May you one day understand and feel what you have done to them and forced them to endure.<P>------------------<BR>~~ Elixir ~~<P>

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Sure seems like there is a lot of "venom" being spewed out here on this post. Seems like we tend to forget that people on both sides of this "fence" are obviously hurting and struggling with numerous issues.<P>The fact is that those issues are legitimate to the person who is hurting, be it the betrayer, or the betrayed. <P>One of the most profound statements that I have come across in scripture (if I may use that here) is when Jesus was hanging on the cross...a crowd had gathered and was taunting him. Barely able to breath, let alone speak, he utters out the cry: <BR> "Father...forgive them...THEY DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE DOING!"<P>No, that is not an excuse for doing the things we do. But the point is, while a betrayed spouse is walking through their own living hell no doubt, a betrayer is fighting his way through his own hell as well. And as a betrayer, I would agree with Harley that the man is not in his right mind. We have obviously been decieved. And DECEIVED PEOPLE DON'T KNOW THEY ARE DECEIVED!!!!!!<P>So lashing out at one only causes them to retreat to their "false place of refuge". Perhaps that is why they ended up there in the first place. (Still not justifying our actions here!)<P>I would hope that those "flirting" with an affair...would take to heart the pain and guile and bitterness they sense oozing out of so many of these posts..and let the reader beware..."if you think you are standing firm, take heed lest ye fall"

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