NoMas, you have definitely taken quite a lot of lashings, not only on this post but on others also. Often I have flinched while I have read them. I guess some betrayed are hurting so bad, they vicariously take it out on any betrayer who sticks his neck out enough to be transparent and open his whole heart.<P>Even when you've been asked "how are you, NoMas"? - you've often ended up tarred and feathered. Guess the answer has to fit a certain mold - if not, advice is given in torrents, whether asked for or not, and in total disregard for any ("inappropriate") feelings. It seems betrayers are only allowed a certain range of feelings - most especially remorse and guilt (welcomed here), but woe to the poor betrayer who really opens his heart and shows ALL the feelings inside. Any feelings of sadness or pain associated with the loss of an OP are immediately pounced upon and an attempt is made to snuff them out - with the "good" intentions of helping, of course.<P>For these reasons I have not been so willing to share as fully as you have. A betrayer just needs a place to share sometimes, too. Advice isn't always requested. Withdrawal hurts!!!<P>I understand the conflict you have inside. I also have all confidence that you are on the right path. It is a journey - your journey, no one else's. <P>Truly sorry for all your pain. You will make it.<P>{{{{{{{{{{NoMas}}}}}}}}}}}} <p>[This message has been edited by siftedlikewheat (edited June 27, 2000).]

Okay, you are right, we didn't reply in dialogue about "happiness", instead we replied to you - in your situation.<P>I'm sorry.<P>Going back to edit my post.<P>Next time, please say something like, "I do not want you to discuss my personal life, I only want to talk about what happiness means to you."<P>Don't go away, just get better at asking for exactly what you want from us, we will surely try and be respectful, okay?<P>TnT

NoMas....wait....wait!!!<P>I just got here......surely you could use another betrayed's point of view...<P>GULP!!!<P>But seriously, hold on and let me catch up.....what a day!!! Work had no air and it was absolutely stifling - I'm talking SWEAT droplets bigtime!!! Just before leaving, here comes a big storm - lightning, thunder, gale force winds....<P>Out to the car, rain feels good but hurts (blowing so hard!!) - guess what I see? A tree limb had fallen right on the hood of my car!!!! Wonderful!!! It was a big one, too!!! Luckily just some scratches and a couple of little dents!!<BR>Can't even notice it on my clunker!! lol!!!!!<P>I pulled it off and by this time am completely soaked.....Happiness was cooling off from the "sweat shop" day!!<P>On to the store....gotta get milk, cigs, etc.....leaving the parking lot, I'll be darned if I didn't get to see lightning strike a tree and send part of it crashing down.....right across the exit<BR>lane to get out of the plaza!!<P>There were two cars in front of me...an old woman in the first (scared cuz the tree almost fell on her) and a twentysomething male in the next...<P>I paused and observed the male throwing a temper tantrum (pounding the dash, screaming obscenities, gesturing) and trying to move his car to go another way.....What an idiot!!!<P>So here I go....out in the rain, past "idiot boy" - calmed the old lady and proceeded to move the darn limb out of the way!!!! Yes, by myself and it was heavy, too!!!!!<P>The lady wanted to give me money!!! LOL.....they are so cute!!!! I told her to have a nice evening...walked by "temper tantrum man" and told him to have a nice evening, too....with a big smile!!!!!<P>That was Happiness!!!!!!! <P>Anyway, I write this about my pathetic little life because there is no "definition" of happiness!! It is simply feeling good at a moment....<P>You are so right when you say that so many people are searching for it...so many seem to have the "things" that others think would be their "happiness" but neither the owner of the "things" now the envier of them experience lasting happiness.....why? Because happiness is not that "thing" or that "person" or that "thrill" that most people define it as.....<P>Happiness is any high within a low....<P>For instance.....you may love your children, but they are not easy and happiness enducing all the time....it's a struggle, right? So they are not classified as "happiness" although if you ask most parents they say that their children bring them the most happiness or joy.....That's not true!!! Not in the sense that you are looking for happiness to be defined.<P>Parents surely have times when those children fill them with happiness...a first step, saying Daddy or Mommy for the first time....when they snuggle and make you feel content and needed.....<P>That is the happiness part....<P>So perhaps happiness is when a person feels content and necessary despite all the craziness or ruts of life.<P>People more and more these days are searching for anything to make them feel special....why? Because they are shown by societal BS that the individual's self-fulfillment is the road to happiness....they are shown that idolization and thrilling pleasures are what to strife for.....<P>I think that the old ways are better...<BR>A person's fulfillment (happiness) dealt with the heart.....<P>Being a good person, having a spiritual direction and purpose for what life is truly about and a strong sense of family, friendship and community is a person's recipe for happiness!!!<P>Hope this addresses your intentions with the question.....<P>More specific...Happiness is seen in brief but frequent "moments" and truly felt when you are self-content with the person you want to be and are on the right path to becoming.<P>Everything else is a mirage...I am serious....take my life for example. It sucks!!! But you know, I am happy!!! Not with what is going on around me, but with my handling of it!!! I am content with myself. By my working through the rough stuff in the correct way, I will once again have more and more of those "frequent moments" when I can really see and revel in the happiness.<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba<P><BR> <p>[This message has been edited by Sheba (edited June 27, 2000).]

Happiness for me is.........................<P>having a roof over my head<P>having 4 healthy children<P>being healthy myself<P>my H being healthy<P>having a H that works at every opportunity to provide for his family<P>having my cat to snuggle with when i just need a quiet companion<P>having all 4 of my parents plus the in-laws still living<P>knowing that one day a "good" and "genuine" friend will find me<P>most of all I think Happiness would be knowing that I have truly given my all in this life!<P><P>------------------<BR>*heartache*<BR>"Loyalty Is A Two Way Street"<BR>

NoMas,<P>I am sorry if my post was one that responded more to your situation than to the question you asked. I, of all people, should have been more sensitive, since I have been in a similar position of asking a question for some info and feeling like I was being lectured instead of getting the input I asked for. I guess I thought I was truly being helpful.<P>Happiness is something that I, for some reason or another, will not let myself feel. I have many things to be thankful for, but instead I feel sad. Somewhere along the way I decided I didn't deserve to have the things I've worked so hard all my life for. Somewhere along the way I decided that I simply wasn't worthy. And now I'm trying to figure out why and how I can convince myself that I DO deserve the things I worked for, that I AM worthy, that it's OK for me to be happy. I have dug quite a nice rut for myself and as painful as it is to be here, I'm afraid to leave. Because I KNOW this rut. It's home to me.<P>Someday I will allow myself to be happy. And when that day comes I'll let you know what it is.<p>[This message has been edited by TruthSeeker (edited June 27, 2000).]

What Sheba said!!! I'll follow you anywhere...and now I know how you've managed to do Plan a for so long...You are happy...<P><BR>I am not obviously, or I would not be so obsessed with what my H has "dared" to change into<P>But you said something that struck me...and I actually brought it up in another thread.<P>CHildren...I have 3...and yes....they do take work...mine in particular are squeaky wheels (except for son who is reserved like his dad...) IN fact...my D's are having a sleep over and they have an art's camp tomorrow and it's 11 pm and I'm still fighting with them to go to sleep and I begin to lose my temper...and wag my index finger....and in the end they are all quiet...and I go in and kiss them all....and walk downstairs and think....<P>I am weary...it is late.....it is hard to take care of kids....I love them....unconditionally...I love them even though they do not live up to my "standards" I love them even though they they are a lot of work...I love them even though we don't meet each others needs all of the time.. They make me happy, they make me mad...I love them anyway....<P>I am thankful... for them (and my H) so I am full of joy!!!!

NoMas,<P>I don't know you as some around here, and you don't know me... I wrote this <B>BEFORE</B> reading the post & replies so I wouldn't be "contaminated". In your case you are the betrayer, in my case I am the betrayed; you see? the prospective cannot be more different, for perhaps (just perhaps) the word "forgiveness" may be both in your and my definition of "happiness" but it would have a totally different meaning. To me happiness is:<P>To be together with no need for words,<BR>holding hands while walking down the beach barefoot,<BR>a knowing smile,<BR>knowing that everything you do has a meaning<BR>and that what you do is only half of what the other half of your team is doing,<BR>it is being madly in love for 17 years...<BR>over and over for more than 6,000 days,<BR>every day.<P>It is to grow older together<BR>looking back and smiling at both<BR>success and error, triumph and failure.<P>It is forgiveness, it is growth,<BR>it is achieving what you want<BR>how you want it<BR>when you want it<BR>in total harmony, without harm to anyone<BR>and in perfect manner.<P>And yet...<BR>happiness may be a dream<BR>from which one day<BR>or night<BR>you may wake up<BR>to true life (that happens to be total unhappiness)<P>So what is happiness after all?<P>Alex <P>------------------<BR><B>Live fully and always learn</B>

Sorry Nomas, but if you meant your question to illicit some general comments on the nature of happiness, then maybe you should not have related your question to your person situation. I afraid that invited the barrage of lectures. <P>Now you can see why it is not a good idea for the betrayed to comment on the problems of the betrayers. That's why I usually just lurk on your threads. <P>Maybe they should consider giving Betrayers their own general topic. Together you might come up with some solutions that would benefit all. Separation withdrawal from OP is certainly a difficult issue in a lot of marriages in recovery.<P>If my reply appeared directed at you personally, it was not meant so. <BR> <BR> *******************<P>Now as to the general nature of happiness. What is it? Well, to me happiness is:<P>...to love and to be loved ;<P>...doing work that we love even if we don't get paid for doing it ;<P>...being content with who you are and what you are ;<P>...smiles on faces that you helped to put there ;<P>...tears when joy can't be contained ;<P>...feeling the glory of a sunset, the grandure of a mountain, the endless cradle of the sea, the vastness of the universe or the smallness of a man ;<P>...bringing forth new life and helping it to flower ;<P>...snuggling in a warm bed on a cold night ;<P>...anything that makes us feel part of a greater whole ;<P>...so many individual things that they can't be counted ;<P>...so different for everyone and yet the same [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img]; <P>...the thing that makes it all the pain worthwhile and endurable [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img];<P>...earned not given [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img];<P>...sometimes not recognized until it's lost [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img];<P>...a state of mind [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img];<P>...God's little gift to us that we share with others [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img];<P>...something we think is just around the corner when really it's in our own backyard, in the sky, in a baby's smile, in ourselves, in everything all around us, in just being alive and part of it all [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img];<P>...something I wish I could give everyone just a little bit more of. <P> [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] [img]http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/images/icons/smile.gif[/img] Buffy<P> <P> <P><BR> <P><BR> <P><BR> <P> <p>[This message has been edited by buffy (edited June 28, 2000).]

NoMas: My apologies if I came on too strong, but I will have to agree with one other poster. The way you associated the question with what was going on in your life may have confused some folks as to what exactly you were asking. Next, you know me, I would never bash anyone. I am the last person who would ever consider stoning others. My concern is to help others help themselves. The pain I go through is enormous at times to the point that I wonder how I am still living. But I am here. I use my experiences to help not hinder. So don't ever take what I say as bashing or downgrading or anything of the sort. <BR>Consider this---Happiness to me is a warm sunny day on the beach. What's happiness to you? Open ended question to doors of a variety of answers. You'll always get those folks who take their answers to the far side of the moon, but hopefully it keeps your situation out of the picture of advice and criticism. Good luck to you.

Nomas,<BR>You mentioned approaching "Happiness" from a philisophical aspect. In our culture happiness is what we all strive for. Isn't that we are guaranteed by our constitution? We have been wired by our society to think that happiness is attainable and that everyone deserves it. Not so. Other societies don't even have a happiness concept. Biblically we are to toil on this earth. Life is hard. When we accept this fact hardships become much easier to handle. <BR>

Tender Heart - you hit it on the nail.<P>The American culture (individualistic contrary to other cultures, and perhaps maybe even contrary to some biblical principles) says "We have the right to live, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness....."<P>I have always believed that you can create areas of happiness, even in the worst circumstrance. But, to me, creating what is good, dwelling on what is good, etc - is the goal, not happiness. Happiness to me is a byproduct.<P>Here is an article from our local newspaper, for me, this is something that makes me happy. (I'm sure it didn't make EVERYONE happy, though....) The happiness is a byproduct, for me. It is a project that I worked towards. It was awesome. It was empowering. It made me feel happy, because I felt it was successful for lots of people. It was restorative, It was good. It ended up creating happiness for me. <P>SOMETHING THAT CAUSED HAPPINESS WITHIN ME:<P>XXXXXX - In XXX Park Saturday, Bosnians sold coffee and gave away samples of spicy chicken, bagpipers in kilts piped, the local "Band of Faith" played national anthems from Germany, France, England and Bosnia, and Mexican girls in colorful dresses and boys in sombreros clapped their hands and shook maracas in rhythm. <P>Across the pond in XXX Park, XXX displayed her hand-painted Ukrainian eggs and XXX demonstrated his hand-carved, animated wood toys and ate a large turkey drumstick while his wife engaged passers-by in conversation. She calls herself a "newcomer" to XXX - she moved here in the '60s. She talked enthusiastically about the cultural diversity of the little town.<P>"I think it's wonderful," she said, adding that she "collects" people from other countries.<P>The bridge connecting the two parks was decorated with flags from dozens of countries, protruding from the bridge like outstretched arms. People milled across the bridge, chattering in English, Spanish, Bosnian, Somali. An observer from XXX(larger metro area) remarked in amazement that it was just like the city - only smaller.<P>XXX (Cultural activity) brought the cultures in this little town together - though, with a few exceptions, they remained somewhat segregated as they ate or watched the entertainment, a reminder that linguistic and cultural barriers still exist and that the community has its work cut out for it.<P>Nevertheless, State Sen. XXX and Rep. XXX complimented the town on its efforts at the noon flag-raising. XXX said he told the Legislature if they wanted to see a good example of a small town dealing with cultural diversity, they had better come to XXX.<P>Rep. XXX said the town was living out Jesus' command to "Love thy neighbor as thyself."<P>Later that afternoon, XXX of XXX (metro area), who works with xxx, an outreach to gang members, and Readers' Theatre, "interviewed" 14-year-old xxx of Somalia. She had spent the week at the xxx school listening to children tell their stories.<P>xxx spoke of his Muslim faith and of his journey from being an outsider in America to feeling accepted. He performed a traditional Somali dance for crowds of Americans, Bosnians and Mexicans.<P>As the crowds watched delightedly, other groups performed too - xxx de Mexico, a song and dance troupe from xxx; xxx, area Philippine dancers; and a relatively new Bosnian folk music group, who the festival committee paid with a drum set.<P>xxx, who helped organize the event, said she was thankful for the sunny weather. "It was just a real special time for the people in our community to come together in a spirit of friendship and have a happy day," she said.<P> <P>

OK. I've got one (a few - I'm actually happy today! )<P>Happiness is:<P>Seeing your child succeed in even the smallest way.<P>Seeing your child excited about getting his first job.<P>Eating a nectarine and enjoying the taste of it almost as much as the taste of a good chocolate bar.<P>Being able to talk to your spouse about all the painful thoughts that are on your mind (NoMas, this is not a slam or a push. Just that my H and I had a good heart-to-heart talk last night and I spilled out a lot of my pain on him. He listened to me and comforted me and I think that talk is the reason that I feel hahppy today.)

Happiness is .........<P>My children telling me they love me (we say that often!)<P>Seeing my littlest (he's almost 1) get so excited when I come to pick him up.<P>Waking up and feeling my H curled up beside me. <P>As TS said, seeing my children succeed at what they try at.<P>