Faith....<P>That was very well put....and I hear and receive everything you shared here. <P>Thank you.<P>Not to defend myself...but to just add one further point....<P>Yes....I have felt that my 'connection' with God has been weak....not sure why that is. It is easy to move along and take for granted that God is 'leading us'. I am reminded of the incident found in Luke, where after a 12 year old Jesus was taken to Jerusalem for the passover....his family returned home and went a 'full day's journey' before realizing they had left Jesus behind. If the very mother of Jesus could do that....then who are we to think it cannot happen to us. <BR>God's plan was for us to follow Him, not the other way around. Somewhere along the path, God 'zigged' and I 'zagged'. I know finding Him first is essential.<BR>But even with that...it was God who looked down at Adam in the Garden and even with that relationship God had with him, He still declared that it was "not good for man to be alone." <BR>I think various circumstances in my life at this point brought on much loneliness for me.<P>I am just thankful that God always writes the last chapter in our lives. I hope it will be a really good one for me.<P>Thank you again for your words....I have taken them to heart.<p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 06, 2000).]

NOMAS, I am reasonably sure that you are misquoting Dr. Harley........<P>Where did he say that h would always be in love with ow? My reading of Dr. Harley is that h never was truly in love with ow. Please cite your source with book and page #!

Wesse....<P>Gladly.....I don't have the book here at home, is at the office...but I'll give you page number here in a little bit. It is in the book "His Needs/Her Needs" Chapter 13. It' somewhere in the middle of the chapter, on the right hand page, about a third of the way down. He repeats himself twice...saying that the betrayed spouses are not thrilled over hearing this...but he has seen it too much.<BR>He does go on to say that it is similar to the addiction an alcoholic has and thus, can never be around the 'substance' ever again. But he clearly says this 'being in love'. I'll edit the page number in here within the hour.

page 177

Yeah, that chapter in HNHN bugs me too. And if you go back to the archived posts, it seems to me that I have a nice long rant about it somewhere. <P>NoMas, FHL is right. Someone has to make the first move to change things, and if your W doesn't have the emotional equipment to do so, then you have to. Arguably, as the WS, you SHOULD be the first one.<P>When my H was putting his friends and Dragon Lady before me, everyone asked me why I put up with it? Why don't I just tell him not to talk to her? Shouldn't he do what I say?<P>Well, people don't always do what you say. <P>NoMas, I think the book HOW ONE OF YOU CAN BRING BOTH OF YOU TOGETHER, by Susan Page would do you a world of good. Any relationship is based on action/reaction. If the action changes, the reaction will by definition have to change.<P>I think FHL is probably dead-on right about you. You will need to fill the emptiness in your soul before you can have the kind of marriage you want. I strongly recommend that you get counseling to try to identify the roots of this emptiness and how you can get past it. You look outside yourself for fulfillment, and no woman -- not your W, not OW, can do that for you.<P>Try stepping outside yourself and your own needs for a while. It can be done. I did it. My H was clearly emotionally involved with someone else, who was calling my house and trying to psych me out at every turn. I had to go to parties and face her, I had to have her at my house. And I stuffed the rage down because I HAD A LARGER GOAL IN MIND.<P>You can do it too.

Hi Nomas,<P>I'm sure this has been a painful thread for many, but - wow, it is really good, also! A lot of deep thought - and FHL has replied so well. I've heard about the book many times, that Dazed refers to - so it must be good.<P>My thoughts on the subject of "lasting love" with OP....<P>My Pastor always said that "love" was an action, a verb. I think Keith Green had a newsletter from "Last Days Ministries" back a 100 years ago, saying the exact thing. It stuck. <P>When God describes love from the Corinthians, he describes actions... "patient, kind, endures all things, hopes....." <P>So, as you start actively "loving your wife" and make no actions concerning OW, I would have to say that those "in love" feelings with OW will end, and they will return for your wife...<P>I asked my husband this last summer - he had a long term affair - even though it was 20 years ago, and during his first marriage - I asked him if he still sorta loves OW. (And there is still contact through family members...) My husband said that after getting out of the addiction of the affair, he could only say that the affair love is best described by the word "fantasy love". It isn't real - and he is happy that he realizes it is only a fantasy.<P>

NoMas<BR>My H said something to me last night and one of my first thoughts was "I must share this with Nomas."<P>He told me that the when he looks back he can't figure out what it was that he thought was so special about the bimbo...and the farther away he gets, the less he can understand what he saw in her.<P>Now keep in mind that my H had a 7 year exclusive relationship with this person. Not all of it was physical but all of it was exclusive of his wife. <P>When I read that part of Dr. Harley's book I was very sad. I was sad because when I put myself in the shoes of a betrayer reading it, I knew that it would probably be the only thing that I believed and that I would cling to it.

Wasstubborn....<P>I appreciate you thinking of me and wanting to share that.<BR>Let me ask you this...and anyone else who would care to respond. I can understand certain feelings 'cooling off' after awhile. It would seem that is only natural. Obvioulsy, when you are still in the thick of it as I am, it is hard to imagine these feelings ever dying out. But would your husband also see himself as a 'bimbo'...and what could the OW have ever saw in him? <P>Funny how it is always the OP who takes the rap for being 'trash' or whatever creative descriptions we come up with. This person I became involved with...is not some monster, or evil woman, or airhead, etc...etc. IF she is, then I am every bit that as well. Decent human beings do falter and make some horrible mistakes. I hear what you are saying, as others are also saying to me, and I suspect they are right about "time" doing it's part.<P>I mentioned once before on an earlier thread that the first time a person falls in love, we all applaud it and think it is wonderful and that the couple will be great together, blah, blah, blah. We seem to think that it is absurd that those two people could ever 'fall in love' again with other people.<BR>Granted, this is for sure, not good or healthy, or even 'right'. But we have to be careful about assuming that because it does happen, and aparently quite often, that the people involved are just total losers. <BR>It really is a tragedy at best. As both my "friend" and I have agreed on in the past, some people never experience love ONCE in a life time. We both found it twice.<P>I do agree, with the other post about 'love' being an action more so than a feeling. But I think everyone involved knows what it is when we talk about 'falling in love." I told my friend that if I really 'loved' her, then I would have done what is best for her! We are not that deluded to not see past that.<P>Whatever you want to call this 'bond' and very strong 'feelings', it sure is a force to be reckoned with.<P>I am optimistic....that these "feelings" we share and seem addicted to, can return in our own respective marriages. And if/when that happens....then I guess we will testify someday...that we were some of those very 'blessed' people....that found love...three times! :-)

NoMas<BR>I am sorry that what I shared with you didn't help.<BR>As far as the bimbo...that is what I have referred to her as since the first day I met her...long before she slept with my H...about 10 men before him. Not because of her relationship with my H but because of how she presents herself. Trust me..it is nicer than the things most women say about her, including my H's stepmother. <BR>I refer to her as that simply because that is how she acts. There is no venom in it. We are what we are. <BR>My H sees himself as a fool - his words not mine. I could tell you much more. I'm sorry. I was only trying to help.

I think a lot has to do with the relationship itself, just like any other. H and I had a really strong attraction right off the bat. That rapidly blossomed into love. However, that was just the romantic part. I think that real love (the everlasting kind) doesn't come for afew years. When the chemicals start to fade you are either left with nothing or that true love. My H's pattern with the OW was pretty typical of his other relationships. Most lasted 3-9 months. I am the only one who made it past a year. OW lasted 6 months, right on schedule. She turned out not to be the person she had seemed. Reality was a swift kick in the head. I 've talked to her (unfortunately) and she exhibits certain behaviors that I know drive him nuts. I'm sure she still thinks that if it weren't for me she'd have him. I know for a fact even if he'd been totally single she would have gotten about the same 6 months. She was nobody special. Just a girl who was in the right place at the right time at a vulnerable time in his life.

Nerlycrazy, your post is exactly how I feel. My husband's A was off-and-on for 8 years, and he tells me now that he never really loved her; that he stayed with me because, in spite of our problems, deep down he loved ME. Toward the end of the A, he began to realize that they were only using eachother to fulfill their own selfish needs, and he did not really want to spend his life with her. He also realized that part of the reason we didn't seem to be able to solve our marital problems was because of his withdrawal and guilt over what he was doing to me. He grew to hate himself for what he had become. Since d-day, he has not spoken with or of her; we immediately moved away, and he has been totally committed to repairing the damage by being open, honest, and constantly reassuring me of his love. I also realized my responsibility in helping to create the environment that made him vulnerable to the A in the first place, and I have made a commitment to him not to allow it to happen again. We are so much happier than we've ever been, that I honestly don't believe he even gives her a thought these days.

Nerlycrazy, your post is exactly how I feel. My husband's A was off-and-on for 8 years, and he tells me now that he never really loved her; that he stayed with me because, in spite of our problems, deep down he loved ME. Toward the end of the A, he began to realize that they were only using eachother to fulfill their own selfish needs, and he did not really want to spend his life with her. He also realized that part of the reason we didn't seem to be able to solve our marital problems was because of his withdrawal and guilt over what he was doing to me. He grew to hate himself for what he had become. Since d-day, he has not spoken with or of her; we immediately moved away, and he has been totally committed to repairing the damage by being open, honest, and constantly reassuring me of his love. I also realized my responsibility in helping to create the environment that made him vulnerable to the A in the first place, and I have made a commitment to him not to allow it to happen again. We are so much happier than we've ever been, that I honestly don't believe he even gives her a thought these days.

hey was....<P>no apology needed. I wasn't bothered by what you said...and heard you clearly. I just was wanting to bring out the fact that not all people who 'fail' in this area...necassarily have a track record in this department. I realize some do...and always will. But the woman I was involved with EA and myself, would have ever believed you had you told us five years ago we would be in this position.<P>You might say this was very "out of character" for us. And again, I agree....time certainly will have some effect on the 'edge' or intensity of the feelings. But I am sure there will always be some fond memories of this person who I grew to know and feel deeply for. I would also think there will be a certain sadness and remorse for the pain we both caused our spouses and ourselves for the lack of self control that we failed to demonstrate.<BR>

NoMas<BR>My H would never have believed it either.<BR>He was helping a "needy friend" all those years before he slept with her. He has said that she is the last person he would ever have thought of in that way. She was at the right place at the right time in his life and just happened to be in between men. <P>The one good thing that has come out of this is that now he sees what she is.<BR>

Adeline & No Mas,<P>Sounds just like my H and me. His improper "relationship, affair, friendship" was slightly longer and was always a secret from me. It was also on-off, very sporadic but existed nonetheless. It provided an escape, a refuge, from our problems and a place where he could go to feel important,, #1. The problems did not start between us, they were family issues but WE, us, our importance to each other and our marriage, got lost in dealing with other issues. We didn't give each other the time and attention we so obviously should have. <P>My H also has not had any contact with the OW since he ended it. He says he never even thinks about her unless I bring it up and he'd like me to forget it ever happened. He is very devoted to us and our marriage now. Love? Nahhh,, what they had wasn't "love." Love is sticking together through thick and thin, knowing each others weaknesses and faults and still loving them, forgiving them and looking towards a brighter future. That's what we have and always did. He just got lost for awhile.

NoMas,<P>First of all, I think you need to accept that some things can come to pass that you can not believe are possible. You just can see it or feel it now, but that doesn't mean it will ALWAYS be that way.<P>I would hope your OP would at some point be shaking her head and wondering what she saw in you! Nothing personal, I am not attacking you or attacking her. She may be a perfectly nice person, just like you, who did not guard their heart and got caught up in a web of lies and deceit and betrayal.<P>I guess we could go on and debate the love thing for days. I guess it comes down to how you define love and how you measure love, both being somewhat subjective.<P>Did you have strong feelings for her which you labeled love? Obviously you do. Would those feelings have a sustained a real life relationship even without the complications of your current situation. You may never know. NoMas, were you ever wildly in love with anyone before (I mean before marriage) only to find for whatever reason, it just didn't work out when you got further into the relationship? Throw in your real life and it would have been a train wreck, just like you stated yourself.<P>In this case, you were both perfectly nice people, making very bad choices and engaging in hurtful and sinful actions. <P>NoMas, really, how hard can it be to "look good" and to portray yourself attractively over the phone and through E-mail. NoMas, just about anyone could. I no you believe you know her soul, but really you only know (and she only knows) what she (you) allowed each other to know. You can SAY or WRITE anything, but it is just words until it is based in action and proved with congruency in your real life. The OW is really an unknown as you are to her.<P>Having said that, I am sure you don't/can't believe a word of it right now.<P>What you can do, is purposefully move toward releasing the OW as a treasure in your heart. I don't think you want to, but until you do, your wife won't fit in the same treasure box. Certainly you can agree with this.<P>Loving you wife as an action, regardless of your personal feelings, will go a long way toward accomplishing this. And since you can love your wife as an action, you can start on this right know, no matter how your heart feels.<P>You can also take ownership of the idea that it is simply not acceptable to treasure the OW in your heart. Even if you think she is the greatest thing since sliced bread, it is not acceptable to treasure a woman that is not you wife, who is in fact another man's wife, in your heart. Hey, I think this touches on a few of the 10 commandments.<P>Once you take ownnership of this idea, you need to move towards changing your feelings by changing your thoughts and changing your actions. Your approach can be quite individual. Here's a few suggestions off the top of my head.<P>Read the book Dazed suggested. It is fantastic.<P>Read what Proverbs says about infidelity. God loves the woman just as much as he loves anyone, yet he doesn't paint her in a very kind way within the context of infidelity. I am sure you can interchange the him/her in these passages. It leads me to believe, that since God loves everyone, it is the relationship that is so toxic. If you can believe that the relationship that exists between the two of you is wrong and hated by God, even as he loves both of you, maybe you can see it less as a treasure and more as a tempting apple on the Tree of Knowledge that destroyed at the first bite.<P>Do not allow yourself to dwell on loving thoughts of the OW. Whenever they creep into your head, say or think STOP. Sing a song, pray, eat jello...whatever works to change your minds direction. With practice you mind will do that automatically.<P>But the first most important step is to acknowledge that it is not appropriate and unhealthy to allow the OW to live in your heart as a treasure.<P>Can you take ownership of that idea, No Mas?<P>Take care

I don't know why you deleted all your posts, Dawnn, but I was sorry to see it. Remember, we are all helping eachother learn and grow here. You may have taken away an opportunity for someone to do that when you erase your contribution. Don't be afraid to be yourself here. <P>I wanted to read Dr. H's entry in it's context as well--thanks for that post. He wrote it back in 1986. Funny it's not also in his "Surviving an Affair" book written in 1998. Why is that, do you think? I really think we need to clarify this from the horse's mouth. Did he change his mind? Did he make a mistake?<P>In SAA he says the affair is an addiction--comparing it to alcohol or drugs. He does not claim it is "love" but a very strong emotional attachment/dependancy that can be overcome with separtation and some hard work. <P>Do addicts "love"--in it's purest, God-given gift form--their drink or their drugs or do they just need it to make THEM feel good. It goes right back to it being all about taking--not giving. That's not love, NoMas.<BR> <BR> Everything I feel and read from other survivors is that these feelings go away or never were. Are we ALL wrong? I don't believe that for a minute.<P>I'm no bible-thumping Christian. But I'm learning that this affair business is making the devil a very happy camper--did you ever read that post I asked you about, NoMas?<P>Dawnn, and everybody else--I'm going to alienate myself further here, but this comes from my heart. I am so frustrated that NoMas does not respond when asked a direct question that might challenge his way of thinking in anyway. He wants only to substantiate the way he feels toward the OW.<P>Has he ever answered one of my questions?<BR>Look back at this thread. He ignores me. Only answers to people that coddle him. <P>Here I go--this is what I really want to say: I firmly believe NoMas is in the grip of the devil. Did that just scare you? Do you think I've lost it? Don't be. This is supposedly a Christian-based program. <P> You all know how good the little red dude is at twisting scripture to suit his needs? Makes him look like he's on your side. He just did it. Don't be lulled into this trap.<P>This whole thread is that little pointy guy's way to UNDERMINE OUR EFFORTS in our marriages. The devil hates marriage. It is sanctioned by God himself. How many of us felt weakened or panicked when we first read NoMas's post? (I'm raising my hand!) Guess who wants us to throw in the towel? Guess who was rejoicing? We are in battle of good vs. evil here and we didn't even recognize it. I did not see it until yesterday.<P>NoMas has seemed to gain alot of power here. He has more posts in every forum than just about anyone. He has been here a very long time. He is well known and basically liked. He doesn't even need to defend himself--others do it for him! Sorry, Dawnn--but ryhmes with "pawn", doesn't it?--I should delete that but let me warn you that's my quirky sense of humor at work. I believe NoMas is being used as a tool. Pray for him. Help him. But don't let his words plant seeds of doubt into what you know is right. <P>I am actually very afraid of you, NoMas! But I believe there is a real person in there somewhere so I will love that person and fight for him. I am opening myself up to attack from evil itself--and I am very scared. But what kind of Christian would I be if I didn't fight evil when I see it? This is what I was trying to do (but underhandedly) yesterday. I felt like the devil won that round so I reacted with love--something I know he hates! <P>Fight him, NoMas. Seek a personal relationship with, God--I think you are in way over your head here and can't do this without him. We have all been praying for you. Now we know what we should be praying for! <P>

Hello Leilana....<P>My, my...a bit 'feisty', aren't we? :-)<P>Where should I begin.....?<P>I have not meant to ingnore you or your questions. Actually, I just finished reading them all over again. Many of them sounded a bit rhetorical. But let be give it my best shot. Oh, and bythe way, you don't need to be afraid of me! I'm harmless and promise not you use all my "power" here that you think I possess to manipulate you in any way, ok?<P>First of all...you asked me about my feelings for my wife and why I would not want to post that here. I believe I already addressed/answered that....better go back and read again.<P>Second, you ask what keeps me in my marriage? Well, I have stated repeatedly over and over that I know that to leave the marriage would bring more pain and heartache and guilt and destruction, than I care to be a part of. I know without a doubt that it would be the ultimate lie and trap to destroy me...by that little "red-pointy-eared guy" that you mentioned. (Are you sure you don't think I am 'him'?)<P>Third, You ask was my ego hurt when my wife got busy in school? I don't know what you want to call it. I think Harley has made quite a case and point illustrating exactly what happens....certain needs go unmet, deposits are made by others, and presto...people get entangled with other people theyhave no business being with. I thought you were familiar with this sight and his teachings? That is exactly what happened to me....didn't think that was a big mystery. I have never tried to justify it here or call it anything else than what it is. I have just had a long difficult struggle finding my way out.<P>You asked if I read the post you refered me to. Yes, I did. It was very good.<P>You said I have more post in every forum here. Sorry...but this is the only forum I ever post in, with maybe an occasional exception. I'm not sure, but if you look at the grand total of my post in my profile, compared to others here, I am still an amateur. :-)<P>I do agree with a number of the things you wrote. I do believe that what I have been involved with is nothing short of sin. Sin can be very deceptive. There was a reason why God tells us to 'never go here.' I understand that better. <P>You are right...I need to get closer to God. I am working on that. Thank you for praying for me.<P>So why are you afraid of me? And what "power" do you think I have here? I have been in a place and position where I have had no place else to go to share my heart. I realize it can be risky doing that here. I have appreciated much of the support and encouragement I have received here. Why does it bother you when people respond in kind to me here? <P>Doesn't your bible teach you that the 'truth shall set you free?" I have been very truthful here with where I am at and what I am going through. It has been through much of the advice many have given me here that gave me the courage to come clean with my wife and tell her what is going on. It has not been easy, to say the least.<P>Oh well...I gave you four questions here so I hope you don't ignore me now. I'll be looking for four answers. Not sure when I will get back to this...I will be leaving early in the morning for an 8 day retreat in the Smoky Mountains for some soul-searching and counseling. The place I am going to is for pastors who have gotten 'burned out' and "fallen" and need some personal ministry themselves. It happens even to us 'bible-thumpin' preachers. It can be pretty lonely here when everyone looks to you for help...and expect you to be more than human.<P>My life has become very complicated this past year. I am doing all I know to do...to keep from causing some huge problems for a host of people. I'm not sure if you go to church, but if you do....pray for your pastor. You never know....I could be your pastor. You don't have to be afraid of us. Just pray for us. And don't forget...we are human too. That is not an excuse. Just the truth.<P>Oh,....I am hopeful that one of these days, given all that I have been through and expereinced....that I will look at people who have fallen into sin...in a whole new light. And I will be sure to leave my 'stones' at home. I will never be qualifed to throw them.<P>Have a nice week.<P>NoMas<P><p>[This message has been edited by NoMas (edited July 06, 2000).]

Oh my....<P>While I do so wish to respect others rights to post their feelings - I think we have gotten WAY off track here into religious ideology that not all adhere to - at least not in such a literal way.<P>No Mas - You remind me of my H. Your analogies, your ability to see everything from all different sides, your facility with words and your ambivalence and indeciveness - even in the face of knowing what you must do. And most of all in your recognition that you are someone easily overwhelmed by emotion and cognizant of your struggle with that aspect of your personality. But I bet that aspect is also something that originally attracted your wife to you - am I right? I know it was like this for me and my H.<P>For those for whom the devil bit is somewhat "out there" - I would like to suggest FHL's way of looking at things: every aspect of one's personality, if taken too far one way or the other can go from a positive to a negative. <P>No Mas is not "scary". He may just be someone that lives fully in his emotions sometimes. Some of us betrayed find that threatening because we are dealing with it at home. This is not an inherently "evil" trait - as I said above I bet No Mas' wife originally loved this about him....but taken too far or in another context, well, we all know the results.<P>Please - let's not judge or call names. I for one am learning so much here. <P>No Mas - sometimes you have frustrated me too - just like my H does, and for the record he is still with OP, I am in plan b, he is occasionally close to suicide and is depressed as H*ll all the time. But the devil incarnate? - hardly - just human, and suffering as much or more than I am. He lives hours away, rarely sees the kids, and wonders how his life got so messed up. It can get much worse than it is now No Mas - but I know you know this already.<P>No Mas you have come so far. Keep at it. As to your original question - (again, this is just like something my H would ask me - in fact I think he has!) no, Harley's words don't bother me a bit. I refuse to worry about something that has not come to pass yet. I believe that given the right circumstance - i.e. no more OW in the picture and commitment to the marriage - our love will grow and surpass anything we had before. And if in fact he does always carry a special place in his heart for OW, but we are also meeting each other's needs, and are madly in love, well so be it. I will not be jealous of memories.<P>Good luck to all.

In the book his needs her needs. It does talk about being in love with the other person forever. However, I think that is where the spouse comes in. <P>If you Plan A completely. You meet all their needs. And the spouse isnt around OP. How can they not fall in love with you? Think about it folks! That is why the affair happened to begin with. The needs were met. <P>I use to think that I would not survive without the loove from OM. Thank GOD! That the wool was taken from my eyes. After learning the reason why this affair happened. I know that is had nothing to do with OM. It was the fact that I was lonely, alone all the time, and H didnt even know that I lived in the same house as he. <P>It had nothing to do with OM. Om was just there to meet my needs. And that is exactly what he done. I greived for months over him. I just wanted his love. Then I came to realize that my H tamed (noone thought that was possible )me one day. He made me fall in love with him. So why could he not do that again. Obviously you were both in love with each other at one time or you wouldnt have married.<P>Betrayers- You will not have to be in love with OP forever. You must open your mind and heart for the spouse to deposit units. I can promise you that OP will fade with time. Of course you are going to hink about them. But it does get less and less. PRAISE GOD! I can remember when OM was on my mind 24/7. I would just pray and pray for it to go away. Now it crosses my mind about once a day for a breif 10 minutes. Then I pray again for it to go away. God will see to it.<P>Betrayed-<BR>You may think there is no end in sight! There is! Just do Plan A. Think about it this way. Plan A is what made your spouse fall in love with you to start with isnt it?<BR>Right now, they are in the fog! I only wish someone could have laid me down and picked the thoughts out of my mind. And eventually when the new wears off and the old shines through. I think they will be the same way. They think it is heaven now. HA HA! boy, wait until the first demand comes out of OP mouth. That will sure take out some units. I firmly believe that you always love your spouse. You may not always be "in love" with them. And I promise if you have grown through life together. Then they still love you. I remeber when OM would say something about H. I would get furious. I thought who is he to tell me what to do? <BR>Just do Plan A. It will work. God does not mean for us to get divorces. The same thing that is happening in your marriage happened in the Bible. This is just a rockky road that you are traveling on in a wagon with only 3 wheels!!!!! SHEW!!!! That is so true.<P>Prayers to all of you !<BR>Renee<P>I hope this will help you NoMas!<P><P>------------------<BR>We can do all things through Christ which strengthens us. Repeat that 5 times a day. I promise you success!