I haven't been here long. I think I'm even still a jr. member. But, I have come to some conclusions after reading off and on here for about a year.<P>This stuff doesn't work.<P>Yes, some of you will tell me you are success stories, and true, some of you are, I guess. But it seems to me that the VAST majority of you are NOT! And that's so sad! <P>I am beginning to think that a marriage CANNOT survive cheating. There is too much pain, too much to get over, too much anger. <P>Thousands lurk here, we are told. Of you thousands, how many can claim success? And I mean, real, true success. I don't mean to point anyone out, truly, but there are those WS's who fall back to the OP, don't love their spouse but stay with them out of duty, and BS's who still want vengence, haven't had sex in years, still don't trust their spouse to even go to the store alone. That is not success to me.<P>I'm sorry, and I really don't want to offend anyone. I agree that Plan A is nice, helps out both personally and the relationship for awhile (if you can keep it up FOREVER), and that meeting EN's is important. But besides that, I just don't see it.<P>Again, I am sorry if I hurt anyone with this post. It's just how I see things.<P>EB

Sorry <p>[This message has been edited by heartache (edited August 29, 2000).]

EB,<P>I would be curious what your definetion of success is? I think that if you use all of Harleys principles and all your troubles dont disappear, you should label your marriage a failure. I guess I am just curious what your definetion of success is and when do you label it a failure. Define failure also.<P>Scarecrow<BR><p>[This message has been edited by Scarecrow (edited August 28, 2000).]

Thank you heartache, and I'm sorry for your pain too!<P>and Good question scarecrow... I don't think true success is possible, because success to me would mean a marriage based on trust, respect, passion and a history of sticking together through the hard times. <P>You know what I've found out? The betrayed spouse NEVER EVER EVER EVER forgets the pain of infidelity. NEVER. He/she can rebuild, but it will always be with the rememberence of the infideity. No matter what anyone does, says, acts like. No matter WHAT.<P>Failure is this: a marriage that is filled with pain, or held together by a sense of loyalty ONLY. Staying together for the children is failure, just as staying together for money, or convenience is. I don't believe that is a marriage. <P>I'm sure everyone else would agree with me there about my idea of failure, yet many here do JUST THAT. They grasp at the straws left in their marriage and pray to God that love will return for both. Some people hang on for YEARS to a marriage when the other partner let go long ago. That's failure to me. I don't understand how anyone could want a marriage like that when there is someone else out there who could love you without cheating on you.<P>EB

My first husband cheated on me with 4 different women in the space of about 2 months--right after we got married. They were all one night stands except for one, who was a co-worker, and this one, he talked about her constantly, and I just listened with interest and cheerfulness, having no idea. He denied having sex with any woman until I had solid proof.<P>When I found out about it (I had just turned 21 and was a newly wed) I put him through the wringer. I knew nothing about marriage, let alone how to overcome an infidelity, or a string of infidelities, as the case may be. I did everything mean and hateful I could think of. I mocked him. I yelled. I screamed. I called his mother and told her what a piece of dirt he was. I left him, then I started going out with his best friend (who told me about the affairs) to get back at him.<P>(My first husband and I had a casual, playmate friendship that we called marriage. As long as there were parties and places to go have fun together, then we were good to go. We had no problems whatsoever, because that's all we expected of one another. Just a good time and recreation.)<P>Can you believe, within a couple of months of finding out, I was totally over it? In fact, after punishing him real good, I wrote him a letter and said "Okay, I'm done. Let's put this behind us and have a baby." (Dumb. I wanted a baby just because I wanted a baby--I didn't know what parenthood entailed, but I learned!) Then I went back to him, and we did just that. I forgave and forgot, completely. And he never cheated again. Never entered my mind after that. Never even mentioned it.<P>Yes, the marriage did end five years later, but HIS infidelity was not even a factor in the end. Not for me, and not for him. It's just that he wanted to continue his fun and playful lifestyle--but I was "growing up" and saw that children had to be fed and bills had to be paid. I turned into a "grouch."<P>So yes, you CAN get over an infidelity. Some, quite easily. I think it involves how long you were married, how resilient (or how vengeful) or wise (or naive) you are in each case. And how much love and commitment you have invested in the relationship.<P>Not the end of the story. . .I left HIM, H#1, for another guy. While I did not have sex with this person (for years, I denied this as being an affair, but it was) I was done being married to this lazy dude and wanted to move on. I was dumped, burned good and crying, into the arms of H#2.<P>I loved H#2 with all my heart and soul. He was a dream come true for me. He was very hard to get along with, I'll grant that, but I just saw it as a challenge. Everyday was a challenge. I worked SO hard at being the perfect wife for him, every day, in every way. I was grown up by now, and being forced to mature even more by my difficult but very much desirable relationship with H#2.<P>So now that H#2 has had an affair, I am devestated, confused, regretful that I didn't do more, angry, and yes, at times, very hopeless. I wonder if we will ever reunite, ever get over this and be happy. I want this so bad, and at the same time, I know that neither of us will ever forget. It will be a lit ember for the rest of our lives, even if we do get back together.<P>I also blame myself for what I did to H#1, and though I know full well that God does not "get revenge," I reflect on the ending my first marriage and keep thinking that I am getting my just reward and being taught a sound lesson. I can't help thinking it.<P>But you are right. Some get over it, but many do not. It depends on the circumstances and factors that caused the affair. It depends upon the stage of life that the people involved are at, and their personal beliefs.<P>I think that having a solid testimony of Christ and His teachings of love and loyalty are the only things that keep me holding on, personally. And if many people felt the same willingness to forgive, (and forgive themselves) out of pure love, it would be a whole different ballgame.

energizer_bunny,<P>So why do you keep coming here? To let people know that you can't see that you possibly did anything wrong in your marriage to cause this? That you're just a helpless victim? That you were the perfect spouse that knew exactly how to fulfill the other's need? To let people know that you aren't a strong enough person to realize where some of the blame lies? To let everyone know that you have nothing but a negative outlook on life and can't forgive someone for a mistake? Even if you are partially responsible for it?<P>Just curious. Don't know you or your situation. Sounds like you have some pent up anger and frustration in your life, and it may not be because of a cheating spouse.<P>I do agree with your defination of success and failure, but if people never come to grips with themselves, their entire life will be a failure. Infidelity or not.<P>You may either want to see a therapist, or a different one if you are, or try picking up the good book.

It is always difficult when you have invested so much in a relationship and become vulnerable to a host of actions that your spouse may do to hurt you.<P>The ultimate betrayal for most married women is Infidelity. Oh the anguish cannot be banished. But banish it you must for your own sake. Or it will gnaw at your heart and soul and you will never see happiness and peace again. I admit I am still at the very RAW stage and can only envision at this time the LIBERATION I will feel when I FORGIVE completely.<P>I really didn't want to forgive because I didn't want to free WS from the guilt. But the truth is WS usually feel the guilt but not the PAIN. It is good to recognise the pain - oh it's impossible to go through a day without that sickness in your heart that makes living so tough and the world so unbearably distant.<P>I know my life has changed forever, whether I remain in this marriage or leave. It is the inner surgery I have to do to purge out the tormentors that are infesting my whole being and life, affecting the mental, emotional, social, spiritual, and physical. I DO MYSELF the great favour by FORGIVING and letting go and getting my own happy self back, albeit with scars still raw in my heart.<P>I am not saying I have succeeded - far from it! I am trying, and coming here to post and share is one way to recognise that some people have somehow managed to get something positive back into their lives whatever the outcome.<P>I am twice married, married my first H when I was very young. I was able to forgive much easier with first H because he was an abandoned and abused orphan whom I married out of sheer pity because he said I was the only one who could ever make him happy. The marriage was abusive. He had little respect for women and admitted he was selfish because throughout his life he had to fend for himself and there was no one to turn to. <P>He started having affairs because (I think) he just wanted to now that he has lost his virginity in marriage. He wanted to sow his wild oats. Our marriage became a 'blanc' marriage and I was kept as a 'trophy' wife. Strangely, I was not hurt because I realised he was not successful in dealing with his past hurts and the root of bitterness is so ingrained in him, he will never be happy no matter what. The As were NOT PERSONAL. I left because I saw the situation as HOPELESS - I was not equipped to help change him - it would take forever. There was no children then.<P>My second H and his A sent my spiralling down into depression because I had to make it WORK for the sake of my baby. It is sad and sometimes I think pathetic because I don't believe in my H or marriage anymore. The corner stone on which the institution of marital bliss was built has been violated and destroyed - I will never get back the same marriage. As my pastor puts it "your marriage is dead and buried in the grave. We have to remove the tombstone to enable the marriage to resurrect". What is the tombstone in my marriage?<P>Honestly, I feel a lot like you about staying in a marriage that has been inexpicably defiled.<P>I think about the first chance I can get to divorce H. I think about the happiness and freedom I will get. But H believes that his place is next to me to help me heal and if I leave, I leave with tonnes of painful baggage and unresolved hurts.<P>It is true that I am staying for my baby's sake. It's true that I feel horrible because all I really want is my happy pre-A past back. But if I can lay down my life so that my baby can have a complete unit, I will try. <BR>BUT there will be no more second chances for H! I have also closed my heart to him -he will remain forever, if not for a really long time, the parent of my child, not my love, not my H. That is how I deal with it . That is like my 'upperhand' in this situation because I can choose within my limited choices (within the marriage) to 'disown' him as my H - to 'punish' him for his A and to make him recognise that what he had done was so damagingly wrong.<P>A lot of H cannot understand how an A can affect a woman's self esteem so much and that As are tantamount to destroying a man's respect for his wife and undermining her as a woman.<P>I have more to say if you like but I hope you continue to post to get more perspectives on how to cope to how to be alive again. We are all trying the best we know how and this forum is so helpful in uttering the unresolved hurts we find so difficult to rid ourselves of.<P>I hope you are better today. Chins up for a while - take a little break.

I am sorry for all of the pain you are feeling and I share it. My marraige is deteriorating swiftly and I never had a clue. Just I love you one day....and there's nothing we can do the next.<P>But I think there are real success stories here. There are marraiges that are made better and there are people who, though they have not saved their marraiges, have suceeded in saving themselves.<P>What I mean by that, is that they have learned a lot about themselves, and chosen to grow....<P>Relationships are hard work...all of them, and it takes two. We are all responsible for 100% of 50% of any relationship we have.<P>I think there are various reasons that affairs occur....We talk about emotional needs not being met, but when you read the information regarding affairs...you also must concider all the factors. Needs change. Many times the changing needs are not communicated. <P>Some people have needs that they cannot even articulate, and continue to search outside of themselves to find that "thing" to make them happy... Sometimes it is simply the lack of protection, or at least not recognizing the need to protect oneself during a vulnerable time.<P>I know I have learned a lot about relationships after reading the MB info and reading the posts of all of us going through this.<P>And in the end...it does come down to human nature.... Human nature.... It is never perfect..<P>I believe that we should always be able to look at the other person, no matter how heinous we view their crime, and see ourselves in their eyes. We are all capable of committing the same.<P>The real success seems to come from detaching ourselves from the beliefs that we cling onto regarding this life and the people in it and having faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in the people around us, and faith in God's word.

Well, it worked for us. To be successful though it has to evolve into a way of life, not a "plan". Kind of like dieting, it may work but unless you change your eating habits you'll gain the weight back. Within afew months after H and I reconciled I no longer thought about Plan A or whatever. We were communicating on a new level and were much better able to meet each others needs. That's what it's all about. Things have to truly CHANGE. Yes, the pain of the betrayal will always be there, but it gets less and less. We are closer than we ever were before and it is wonderful.

Hello Bernzini,<P>Thank you so much for your thoughtful post. All the ways you handled your first h's cheating is what I did. Mine is more recent, and I don't think I did right, but it is what I did. I didn't go out with his best friend, but I did meet someone on the Internet who made me feel better, and I know how wrong that was too. Actually, one came before the other. Oh, I'm not making sense. I knew something was wrong. I thought my h might be having an affair. I was afraid and didn't want to ask him so I let it go on. I then had an emotional affair with a man on the internet. Then I realized for sure my h was having an affair. It was a big mess. Still is.<P>Thank you for giving me hope that infidelity can be healed. <BR> <BR>Still Praying,<P>Exactly what did I do that personally offends you so? I wasn't mean to you, but you act like I was.<P>To answer your main question, I come here because I am in pain. Why do you come here?<P>As far as the rest of your questions, they are to provoke a fight. Sorry, I have enough of that in my life. Won't go there.<P>Hi weep,<P>This is a lovely post. Thank you for taking the time to take me seriously. <P>I have been betrayed, and I have been a betrayer in an internet emotional affair. I am still trying to get over what both of us did, and my marriage is still over. I don't think there's enough time in the world to 'get over it'. <P>I will continue to read (I have been for a year now) but posting is difficult. It was scary to post this, but of course I do have the opportunity to say how I really feel without looking at anyone. People like the above responder have no problem attacking, which is why I hestitate to post in the first place. <P>Take care everyone. And I guess I should say that if you can heal your marriage (and it seems that a FEW really can!) then I really wish you well. But if you are like me and my spouse, and can't heal it, I also wish you well, maybe even moreso.<P>EB<BR><p>[This message has been edited by energizer_bunny (edited August 29, 2000).]

Hi tootrusting,<P>Thank you for taking the time to reply and for being kind.<P>I am sorry for all of the pain you are feeling too.<P>As far as the "real success stories" it takes time to see how things pan out. I have read lostva's postings and she appears to have a success story. My problem is this - she will be in Plan A for the rest of her life. She seems like a strong woman, and a very nice woman too. But can she Plan A forever? She can never bring up the HELL her h caused her? She has to cry alone? She can't let the triggers get to her? That is not a marriage TO ME. I am not a mean person, but I have feelings and they are important. I just cannot imagine keeping up a Plan A forever. But that's maybe just me.<P>Re: The real success seems to come from detaching ourselves from the beliefs that we cling onto regarding this life and the people in it and having faith. Faith in ourselves, faith in the people around us, and faith in God's word.<P>I beleive this.<P>fairydust,<P>Congratulations on being a success story! I think you are one of very few, that's all. <P>And to touch on what I said above - "it worked for us" means exactly what as far as what you will do to keep the marriage going? I don't mean that at all meanly. I'm serious. Are you Plan A your h for the rest of your life? Is he you? <P>To use your diet thought, yes, you have to change your habits, but one time of binging won't get you fat. It takes time. One time of losing it with your spouse could throw him back into the arms of someone else. That's eggshells for you. Do you feel that way, or am I way off base?<P>I am happy for your success, by the way.<P>EB

EB:<P>You wonder why you might be "attacked" with a differing opinion? You post on a site dedicated to the MarriageBuilder's philosophy, and post:<P><B>This stuff doesn't work.</B><P>Sorry, but your statistics are off. This stuff does work. It works with a surprising percentage of people. It works better when you're not in the "dire" situations that most people find themselves in here (this board tends to be a last resort for many SEVERELY troubled marriages). But even then, these techniques work for many people. Much better than taking the tact:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>a marriage CANNOT survive cheating<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Which would give you a 0% success rate.<P>I'd suggest to you that you might find it best to do counseling; either with one of the Harley's (888-639-1639) or with a local counselor who understands the methodology here and has success. It's not always easy to step back and "self-learn" these techniques when you're immersed in a seriously troubled marriage. I know that I've gotten a lot out of my counseling with Steve Harley. And as bright as I consider my self, and with my ability to "emotionally remove" myself from my situation to analyze it---I know that I couldn't have done it without his help and guidance.<P>I suggest that you REALLY use the program, to it's fullest benefit, employing a counselor. And then judge for yourself if you're getting the results you want. Until you do, you really aren't at a point where you can judge.

energizer_bunny,<P>You did nothing to provoke me, and I wasn't trying to pick a fight. It just sounds as though you are very stressed with life. I feel that whether or not the concepts that are here work is based on personal commitment and understanding of the situation. I don't feel that this takes the co-operation of both spouses, just one. If you can never truly forgive someone for their actions with understanding and compassion, then an internal negative attitude will lead to an external negative behavior, and the concept will fail. It is impossible to ever forget what has happened, but the past cannot be changed, and to go forward in life it must be released. If you decide that his actions cannot be forgiven, we are all given the freedom of choice, then you must move on without him. Nothing I have read says that we must pretend that things haven't happened, only that we must determine whether or not we are willing to work on the marriage. If you are willing to accept things as history, and are willing to work on the marriage, then the plans here are some of the best advice around.<P>Again, I feel that the secret to success is based on an intimate personal decision. One cannot just decide "Well, I'll try plan A for a while and see what happens." A half-hearted effort leads to a half-hearted outcome. If you cannot accept things as they are and be willing to make them better, your spouse will ultimately pick up on these feelings and your efforts will go unnoticed and won't be productive.<P>Think back to when you were dating. What if when doing things together, you were always thinking "I hate you for what you've done to me, for the ways that you've hurt me and destroyed my trust, and I will never forgive you." Subconsciously, your body language would have portrayed this and he probably wouldn't have wanted to see you very often, bad vibes.<P>Again, it's up to you what you want to do in your marriage. If you don't want it to work, then don't try. If you do, then it's all about attitude, as coming to grips with what has happened will only make you a better person. Trust can come back, but you must allow it to.<P>To answer your question, I am here to learn. To vent frustration at my situation and see what others are doing. I am also here to learn about other's thoughts on life who may have the same past experiences as my wife. Yes, she left. Yes, she's been gone 2 months. No, she isn't home or hasn't said that she wants to work at this. I don't see this as a failure, it took me quite a bit of time to get my head on straight and change my attitude. I may have already seen changes since I started that, or I may be grasping. Only time will tell, but I do know that for the first several weeks, my attitude of resentmen and bitterness as to her walking out didn't help the situation.<P>Failure is success, if we learn from it.<p>[This message has been edited by Still Praying (edited August 29, 2000).]

I disagree with you, Energizer Bunny.<P>The stuff works.<P>1) I think of Plan A as really loving someone, you don't demand, you don't express unhealthy anger, you don't make righteous judgments, you don't make thoughtless decsions regarding them (all defined as Lovebusters). Will I Plan A for the rest of my life...hopefully, no reason not to, since I've been at it the better part of 2 1/2 years, but, I am also fortunate that my H is now as enthusiastic about building our marriage, so WE also add the 4 rules of succesful marriage--protection, care, honesty, spending time together & policy of joint agreement (some work to do on that one, but we've begun).<P>2) The WS can truly turn around and be a full partner of the marriage. I did 11 years ago. My H is now. Since he's been home this last time, he's been out of town for days at a time, he's worked nights, he's simply done "stuff" where he's out. He carries his cell phone so I can call. Sometimes I do, sometimes I don't, sometimes he calls me. Accountability for time & contact with OP is a wonderful gift, and the one I find most healing. I now have very little anxiety about where he is--and I was almost to stalking at a year ago. We don't struggle with walking on eggshells, though we've been there. We do struggle to communicate in new & positive ways without hitting old triggers. We've known each other 19 years, believe me, we know and in some cases DESIGNED the other person's hot buttons.<P>3) Does the BS forget. Not for awhile. The key to alleviating the pain, at least for me, was forgiveness. Total, piece by piece, day by day. The wounds are a bit like being hit with a "toe popper" land mine. You are lucky & survive and first staunch the gaping, bleeding wounds, then as days & weeks pass, the scrapnel works its way to the surface and you deal with that in a healing manner as well. Just like a real, physical scar, it's there but you don't "see" it after awhile. I have a 3 inch scar on my neck, I have long hair, it doesn't show...but it causes me no pain and anyone it "bothers" is not worth my time. Same with your infidelity scars...anyone who says "How can you be with your WS after the way they treated you?" None of their business. It becomes just a memory once you let the wound heal.<P>4) You say you don't have patience. For MB to work, you do need patience, you need love, you need strength of character, you need to know who you are and what you've got inside you, AND you need to let time pass. My patience has developed immensely because of the past 2 1/2 years, I'm also more thoughtful, kinder, self-assured and confident. That is the benefit of Plan A to me. <P>And, my marriage is on track...a success. We were very close to not making it, I'd served D papers, and if my H's behavior had not changed, there wasn't any more I could have done or, at that point, was willing to do, my goals of sticking out as long as I could, with a mental, unstated 18 months, were met. He then discovered Plan A . After experiencing Plan A I believe it DOES work--and there was another relationship involved for me, so it was just as complicated for him as it was for me doing Plan A.<P>Personal success takes 1. Marital success takes 2, but one can hold it at the point of reconciation being possible--that's really what Plan A, then B is about.<P>5) It isn't fair that the BS who is hurt is usually the one who Plan A's. Nope. Not fair at all, but it is the action/decision/choice/option of an adult who knows "fair" means very little in real life.<P>------------------<BR>Lor<BR>"Let love be genuine...hold fast to what is good; love one another." Rom 12:9-10

Well, hello there K,<P>Re: You wonder why you might be "attacked" with a differing opinion? You post on a site dedicated to the MarriageBuilder's philosophy, and post: This stuff doesn't work.<P>NOBODY deserves to be attacked for their thoughts. Period.<P>Did I use statistics? I didn't think I did. <P>Re: I'd suggest to you that you might find it best to do counseling; either with one of<BR>the Harley's (888-639-1639) or with a local counselor who understands the methodology here and has success. I know that I've gotten a lot out of my counseling with Steve Harley. <P>Um, I know this is your mantra, and I appreciate that you feel they've helped you in your marriage. Don't take this wrong K, but the fact that you are happy in a sexless marriage is sad to me. It's not that you don't want it, you DO, which is what makes it sad. Remember, I have been reading here for a year, and I do respect the progress you've made. But I wouldn't call it a success.<P>Dear Still Praying,<P>Thank you for the thoughtful reply.<P>Yes, I am "very stressed with life." More than you or anyone else knows. But aren't we all? <P>Re: I don't feel that this takes the co-operation of both spouses, just one. <P>Oh ya, I've heard of those books with titles like "Saving your Marriage Alone",and I guess it CAN be done. <P>Re: If you can never truly forgive someone for their actions with understanding and compassion, then an internal negative attitude will lead to an external negative behavior, and the concept will fail. <P>Hmmm... well, I guess that I think it's possible to forgive but since we never forget the marriage is defiled still. I know some will say that triggers lesson and soon the good will outweigh the bad. I personally have never met a couple where the infidelity is out in the open and they are happy, or even close to it, UNLESS a sacrifice is made by the betrayed. <P>Re: One cannot just decide "Well, I'll try plan A for a while and see what happens." A half-hearted effort leads to a half-hearted outcome. If you cannot accept things as they are and be willing to make them better, your spouse will ultimately pick up on<BR>these feelings and your efforts will go unnoticed and won't be productive.<P>100% agreed.<P>Re: To answer your question, I am here to learn. To vent frustration at my situation<BR>and see what others are doing. <P>Me too, and I felt attacked for the vent, if you will.<P>Lor (Lor),<P>Yes, I see you as somewhat of a success story, but only time will truly tell. Did you think you were a success story the last time you got back together? Or the time before that? Again, I am not trying to be mean-spirited at all. I respect you and all that you are doing to repair your marriage.<P><BR>Re: 1) I think of Plan A as really loving someone, you don't demand, you don't express<BR>unhealthy anger, you don't make righteous judgments, you don't make thoughtless<BR>decsions regarding them (all defined as Lovebusters). <P>Uh huh. So, you think that you can keep this up for the rest of your lives? No matter what?<P><BR>Re: 2) The WS can truly turn around and be a full partner of the marriage. <P>And what happened after that to make him go astray? Or you? I am not trying to yank your chain here, I'm trying to understand. You did a "perfect plan a" and he went back to the latest OW. What makes you think it will be different this time? Honestly.<P>Re: 3) Does the BS forget. Not for awhile. <P>Did you ever forget about the other OW? Be honest.<P>Re: 4) You say you don't have patience. For MB to work, you do need patience, you need love, you need strength of character, you need to know who you are and what you've got inside you, AND you need to let time pass. <P>How much time, would you say? Again, I'm asking sincerely.<P>Re: Personal success takes 1. Marital success takes 2<P>Totally flies in the face of what Still Praying says. Wonder which one is right?<P>Re: 5) It isn't fair that the BS who is hurt is usually the one who Plan A's. Nope. <P>Couldn't agree more.<P>Okay, on to another work day. Just wondering if my marriage could survive this. I still don't think so, but you've all given me food for thought.<P>Thank you.<P>EB

EB,<P>Like I said before shortly after H and I reconciled I ceased thinking about Plan A. Actually I didn't even know about Plan A until AFTER we got back together, but I was using similar methods from a christion marriage book and a minister who was counseling me. H has no idea Plan A or Plan B exists. We both realized how important communication is, what each others needs are, where we both went went wrong earlier in the marriage. We don't live by a "plan" we just live. We treat each other with respect and love, go out of our way to compliment each other and do nice things and it is wonderful. that is the way a marriage should be. It's not walking on eggshells or being forced, it's just the way we are now.<P>While I was in "Plan A" or my version of it it was VERY difficult at times. That's why it doesn't work for a lot of people. My H and I NEVER discuss the affair, I NEVER throw it in his face. That is the kind of person I am though. You can only beat a dead horse for so long in my eyes. If I had made a horrible mistake, was very remorseful, doing everything in my power to make up for it (all of which H has done) I wouldn't want it thrown in my face forever. H has been beyond reproach since the EMR, he has treated me like a queen. Ironically I probably have the best H of any of my friends now. He is happy, I am happy. Yes, I still have triggers (less and less) but there is nothing he can do about that. It's something I have to deal with, he can't help me with that. If you don't have the kind of personality to deal with post EMR in a certain way then nothing will work. Once you reconcile and the A is over if you still keep thinking in terms of "Plans" you are probably doomed. One hting to keep in mind about is that I NEVER wanted to know details about the affair, it was irrelevant. What mattered was working on us. It was OW who insisted on telling me all about it, that's where my triggers came from.<P>P.S. - The main reason I still lurk on these boards is to share my experiences with others and to let others know that there is hope. I had this done for me by several people while I was going through it and it really helped. I want to do the same for others. <p>[This message has been edited by fairydust (edited August 29, 2000).]

Good points, folks...<P>(WARNING! LONG RAMBLE AHEAD!)<P>EB, My H DuncanMac & myself are another success story... took a very long time to get here, and involved my infidelity (plus all the emotional fallout that goes with it) many years ago, plus DM's brief affair 2 yrs ago (more of that fallout).<P>We've spent an enormous amount of time learning about each other and the dynamics of our marriage. This is something that has to happen sooner or later in ANY marriage. To us, packing in an investment like that without wringing EVERY drop of effort and committment out of ourselves was just not an option. Even less of one once we had kids.<P>So guess what? Eventually everything "gelled". All the pieces flying around for so long fell into place. NOW we're enjoying the fruits of all our hard work. We're having more fun, laughing more, teasing more, talking more, more , than we ever have. <P>Are there scars? Sure. Who gets through life without 'em? We've inflicted plenty of them on each other. But that's *over* now. We've learned it's a lot more rewarding to care for each other and be nice to each other and ENJOY each other, than to punish each other for past mistakes. Plan A isn't just an artificial construct; it's a way of life. The "two Lors" have put it very well.<P>Affairs aren't only about betrayal. They're about deep unhappiness, DEEP confusion. The betrayer isn't addicted to their OP, so much as they are to how they feel about *themselves* in the OP's company. In my opinion, an affair often happens because there's something inside the betrayer screaming to get out, something they've ignored or stuffed down or discounted. They're in the throes of some kind of emotional upheaval that will lead to a "growth spurt". It's almost like a volcano erupting under great pressure. It ain't pretty, but it's gonna blow!<P>This is where all the "soulmate" stuff comes from. The betrayer is tapping into something *essential* within themselves, something they absolutely must integrate into their lives ('course, nobody knows this AT THE TIME, more's the pity... ). <P>You've all the heard the expression "an inch deep and a mile wide"? Well, an affair is an inch wide and a mile deep. The mistake the betrayer makes, when blissfully enjoying that mile, is thinking that the bliss will carry over into every aspect of his life, *as long as the OP is there* - in other words, the OP has been accorded magical powers to make everything all right forever.<P>Well, we all know that ain't so. I think this is where a lot of the confusion and disagreement over the question "Is it 'REAL' or is it a 'FANTASY'?" comes from. In my opinion - it's both. In some way, the affair has given the WS permission to be "more himself" (we've often heard that, right? And I felt it in my own affair). But it's only in certain, narrow ways (an inch wide), while the rest of his/her everyday life (the mile wide)is forgotten.<P>The Harley methods are all about understanding that a WS is, for all intents and purposes, temporarily insane. And that most of them will figure that out sooner or later. Remember - *it's not about the OP* - it's about the WS blowing an emotional gasket that has been building up pressure. And statistics bear out the fact that very few affairs result in marriage - even fewer in a successful marriage.<P>Plan A is a way of dealing with an insane spouse in a way which minimizes the potential to drive them away. Does it succeed in saving the marriage every time? Nope. But I'll wager that in those that *do* survive, it's been a factor. Part of the "Affair Syndrome" is that the WS demonizes the spouse: they're unreasonable, mean, grouchy, frigid, can't understand me, no fun, blah blah blah.... a good Plan A defuses and invalidates these demonized opinions.<P>Alright, I've been rambling here...(WHERE was I going with this?? ). The upshot is: do you want to save your marriage to this person? Do you think the "bare bones", the basic structure, is good? Were things good before your spouse turned into an alien? Then this is your best shot. Wait it out. Don't give them ammunition to further their "cause". Give them as much "food for thought" as you can...hmmmm...wow, she's being really reasonable...and *nice*!...I can't believe I'm having fun with her... (meanwhile OP is becoming a B*tch On Wheels...reality DOES have a way of creeping in).<P>At some point in recovery, the BS has to be able to separate the person from the acts. The acts were horrible; the person who eventually re-emerges from the madness is not. It *is* possible to do - and it's neccessary. What is the priority here - holding a grudge or healing the marriage? Keep your eye on the horizon & keep putting one foot in front of the other. I've learned it's the only way to get anywhere. There's no magic formula. It just *happens* sooner or later if you keep trying to do the right things.<P><P>------------------<BR>~suse~<BR>Rome wasn't built in a day.<BR>

eb:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Um, I know this is your mantra, and I appreciate that you feel they've helped you in your marriage. Don't take this wrong K, but the fact that you are happy in a sexless marriage is sad to me. It's not that you don't want it, you DO, which is what makes it sad. Remember, I have been reading here for a year, and I do respect the progress you've made. But I wouldn't call it a success.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>Why is "being happy in a sexless marriage" sad to you? There's absolutely nothing wrong with that---it's no worse that "being happy in a marriage where your spouse doesn't earn $1,000,000/year"?<P>So, I'm much happier in my marriage now than I was three years ago. Proof that this stuff works. Proof that it is "successful". And as others have intonated, proof that it can work (perhaps not to perfection) if only one spouse is practicing the philosophy.<P>Now, "being happy in a sexless marriage" is not the same as "being happy that your marriage is sexless". It's completely different, and I'm sure you're aware of it. I'm not happy that my marriage is sexless---far from it. And I'm committed to doing what I can to turn it around.<P>And thankfully, my wife has come around to this point of view, and is now counseling with Jennifer Harley to work on her issues surrounding this.<P>As you indicated, you see progress in my situation. Positive progress. I do too---otherwise, I wouldn't be here working on "spreading the word". I'd agree with you in that we're not a complete success yet---I'd call this more of a work in progress. But we're 90% of the way there, and I'm pretty confident that we'll get the remaining 10%.<P>In the big picture, if I do a risk/benefit analysis of all my options, I've been way ahead using the MB system than anything else. I don't have problems with the "pain" of the affair---it really is a rare occurance when I think of it in a negative (painful) light. I have a beautiful family intact---something that would have been unacheivable with divorce. I have a wife who does love me---there's the issue of not being "romantically" in love with me, but that's something that is fixable. <P>Big gains. Not much risk. What other options would you have me consider???<P>When I see someone in your situation complaining about how rotten this situation is (and it is), and how you can't see a way around it---I really feel that you'd benefit from the counseling. You're stuck, you don't truly understand how to employ these techniques, and you could use some coaching to get out of the rut. So make the call...

I've read this thread a few times this morning and it helped me to figure out a few things.<BR>The words "success" "failure" "betrayer" and "betrayed" have always bothered me.<BR>1. They are labels.<BR>2. They describe black and white. Absolutes. At least in my mind.<P>Life is mostly gray areas. Marriage is full of gray areas. I will probably never call me or my marriage a success. It is a work in progress. Plan A is a process. A work in progress. <P>Do I check the books to make sure things comply with Plan A? NOT. To me Plan A is about doing the best I can in every area of my life. How to treat others in a way that will improve the relationship. It's a way of life.<P> Do I share my feelings about H's affair with him? Yes. He insists that I do that. Does Plan A say that I can't do that?<P>My H has turned into a wonderful man. Better than he ever was before the affair.<P>I still hurt. I still have bad memories. They are not attached to the man he is now. That is part of forgiving. You hurt from the memories. But you have to separate the person from the acts. If I left him I would still have bad memories. He wants to help me get through them.<P>Our marriage is far from perfect. I am far from perfect. I am not a success. I am a woman who has learned a huge amount from this forum and Dr. Harley's teachings. A woman who loves her H enough to work through this with him.<P>If I lived in a black an white world...maybe then I would be able to think in terms of "success". I live with the grays...one day at a time.

energizer bunny,<P>Just a couple of thoughts from my own experience (in process but what I would call successful following the MB principles).<P>Plan A is my new way of life. When I came to this site I was hopeless and desperate. I was pretty dazed for a couple of weeks but as soon as I pulled it together I started to follow the MB principles and, over time, my relationship with my H has improved considerably. Plan A is really just how we ought to treat our spouses anyway! It surely describes how I want to be treated.<P>Re. the pain and never forgetting - at least for me the pain IS diminishing as time goes on. And my H's EA will probably never be erased from my memory, but I think of it only occasionally now as compared to every minute of every day shortly after D-day. I do believe that forgiveness and prayer has had a lot to do with the release of pain, in addition to the improved relationship with my H.<P>It sounds as though your pain has turned into bitterness. There's a book called "Betrayal's Baby" by Bunny Wilson (I think that is the author's name) that is helpful in getting past bitterness.<P>God bless you.<P>periwinkle<P>