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#40705 12/12/99 01:26 AM
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Chris,<P>Believe me I'm just trying to interject a different viewpoint to your situation. I have followed your story for quite some time, and noticed the insightful and caring replies you have posted to others. You have a very special gift in this way, and although you will probably not share my opinions today, I hope that eventually you will. Please keep in mind that I am not trying to slam you in any way.<P>Chris, more than anyone else on this forum, yours is a particularly unique situation. You have no opportunity to Plan "A" because you have next to no contact with your wife. Where has it gotten you? <P>Plain and simple; your wife abandoned you and the family. I suggest you divorce her immediately and wrap that beautiful letter around the papers. I believe most jurisdictions in the Country will grant you just about anything you want, legally. This woman has abused you and will not even give you the courtesy of an explination. My guess is that she figures that by now you would "know" why she left. We all know this isn't about the laundry, toast or whatever. About that scene in the stairwell in 1982? How could you possibly not "see" what was going on? What is it in her that you don't want to see? You didn't see it then because you didn't want to. What is it about yourself that you couldn't face then and possibly now. Another affair years later and no closure between you and your wife? This has been inside her for a long, long time.<P>That scene you described in San Francisco and the thoughts about the shotgun, frankly was pathetic. I can imagine the look of disgust on her face. How could she possibly love you when you have so little self-respect for yourself? She seems to have no respect for you or your daughters whatsoever. Personally, I could never forgive the abandonment of the children.<P>Chris, I also recall that she has been 'your one and only'. Boy, talk about a situation that cries for perspective and the experience of a healthly relationship. I'm sure your not ready for an intense emotional relationship, but do you have any idea how many women are dying for the emotional support and feeling you can provide? You need a female friend and confidant. My god man, pick yourself off the matt and get yourself into the ballgame. Do it for your kids as well. They could benefit from a female role model that doesn't bolt like a cat for "no reason". <P>Not sure about the Greenland thing, but look for a way to turn it to your advantage. A separation by you from the children is frightful. <P>Chris, the most successful people I have ever met in life (spiritually, emotionally and in business) had one, and only one, common charateristic. I watched them all pick themselves up in the worst of times and turn a huge negative to their advantage into a positive. They all had an unwaivering belief in themselves. Find this strength and you will find the love and support you need. Merry Christmas. I hope I did not offend.<BR>Managing.

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Hi Managing -<P>I was compelled to respond here even though I am not the addressed party...<P>I hope you don't mind the interjection!<P>I understand a lot of what you are saying and I also understand a lot of what Chris is doing and why.....I have a similar circumstance as Chris (as far as "abandonment") although I do have contact with my H.<P>First of all, I don't think that Chris' Wife is doing too much differently than any other betrayer of this type - only difference is that she's doing it far away!!!! There are quite a few people on these boards whose spouse has gone off with the OP.....no difference except closer!!! Maybe being a Mom not seeing the kids is supposed to be different than the Dad not seeing the kids or in too much contact ... I could never do it - but I am not her (or the Dads!)<P>In that respect - Chris is not so unique!!! In some ways he is luckier than those of us who have to go back and forth with waffling or attitude, etc...<P>In other ways - he is not so lucky - like the Plan A input physically every day.....or being able to at least see and hear them. Just to have some "piece" of her in his life and to know that she's OK. <P>Like many of us here....we are doing what we can to remain true, steady and safe to/for this person we became partners with for life! It's certainly not easy - but it is something that we must do because of the type of person we are!! If we are smart, we use this time to learn all that we can about relationships, communication and ourselves!!! We change and grow for the betterment of ourselves and our futures. We become stronger people with more understanding and compassion and a new outlook on how easy it is to take things for granted.<P>I believe that Chris, like some others is doing all of those things....I do not see where he has lost any self-respect! I understand your view on the SF incident - but I have to tell you that I completely disagree!!!! His actions were completely natural and I, as one of those "women who are dying for emotional support and feelings", would not/am not disgusted in any way by his behavior!! On the contrary, I find it very refreshing to hear of a man who actually can express his feelings and not suppress them!!!! <P>I mean, for goodness sakes - He is going through all this, can't see her, has all these "why's" and "whens" in his head, is going to a funeral, sees her unexpectedly, etc, etc,....my GOD!! How could anyone NOT burst into tears?????<P>I believe that this "self-respect" that you speak of is Foolish Pride!!! I believe that Chris knows who he is and what awaits him if/when it is time for that to happen.... <P>I feel that he is a man who LOVES his Wife....why and how should those feelings end through her current behavior? Is there a switch that noone told me about? It's not that simple...<P>Another point I wanted to make is the need to drop 20years of marriage because of two ten year old brief, possible encounters and a trip in Fantasyland!!!<BR>I see your point of moving on....but I am not sure what that means!!! He chose 20 years ago to be married...he is and is acting like it!!! His Wife is the one who NEEDED something more....whether that is for good or just for now remains to be seen. What exactly should he be doing? He is taking care of his family and goes to work.... He loves someone and is willing and able to wait to see if this is something to be gotten out of her system. That is standing by your partner through the good and the bad, is it not?<P>As far as getting out there....to what? Divorce immediately? WHY HE did not choose this - if she wants it then do it and have closure..... Chris is not the one who wants it and has his girls to be an example for!! How could he just "drop" their MOM? And with regards to having a female influence in their lives - what do you think their initial reaction will be to this new female? It is going to take a very long time for them to deal with this....if they ever can fully get past it!! They need time as Chris does and I think that he has thought about all of that also. <P>I know that it is she who "dropped" them....but until she is ready to commit one way or another to a plan for her life is that a temporarily "dropped" or a permanent one? Do you know....do I know....does Chris....does his Wife?<P>I have done the same in my marriage...yes, I am about to be divorced, but it had to be his decision and his doing. That is not to say that my H's feelings are any more permanent than before....he could still be in delusion for all I know....but I kept true to what I felt was right!! I believe that Chris is also and that when or if the time comes that a decision will be made...not forced from pride or any other reason!!<P>I am sorry for the interjection...I hope you and Chris don't mind!! As I said, I have the same feelings on this in my situation (less the children aspect) and I truly don't feel that lack of self-respect plays a part!!!!!<P>I did want to tell you though, that I thought your advice about anger management was very wise on CeeCee;s thread a while back....very helpful!!!<P>Again, I hope you don't mind my opinions on here.....just another point of view!!<P>HUGS,<P>Sheba

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I'll probably regret this but feel compelled to reply.<P>There are very, very few of us on the board in this strange situation. The spouse is having an affair and won't stop, won't counsel or work on the marriage, yet won't divorce the betrayed. In fact, I can only think right now of Chris, terri and me that are dealing with this. In both Chris's case and mine, the infidel is also not acting like a parent. Terri doesn't have children. I'd speculate the same treatment if she did.<P>I'm slowly getting to a point here. This situation is weird on both fronts. First, most people that are having affairs and won't stop seem to be in a big, indignant, self-righteous hurry to divorce. Not these ones.<P>Secondly, the vast majority of betrayeds will opt to divorce the infidel in this situation in relatively short order. Not us.<P>The third thing in common amongst the three is the degree of change within the infidel. Whereas these betrayers were relatively warm and open before, now they're evasive and non-communicative. They're also very indecisive for long amounts of time.<P>If the current behavior of the infidel were in fact consistent with their past behavior, we probably should have divorced them long ago. But the fact is, it's not. For whatever reason, external and internal factors are driving these infidels to behave horribly.<P>We don't see Chris's wife enough to know how she's holding up, but my guess is unless her mental illness is delusion, she's probably feeling huge guilt and pain over what she's doing to her girls. The effort to deny is so strong that she's trying to block this. Otherwise, it would overwhelm, possibly even to the point of making her suicidal. BUT, I strongly believe that no one can be in denial forever. When she crashes, there will be no bottom.<P>As Sheba said, what exactly is Chris to do? Without question, he's doing the best thing possible with the objective of saving the marriage. Certainly, being angry and confrontation, or self-righteous, is not going to help in bringing his wife back. The sad part is, though, what he's doing doesn't appear to be making her come back either. Still, it's the best choice under difficult circumstances.<P>The real question you bring up is one of balancing self respect with ongoing conciliatory actions towards the cheater. The reality is, none of us can do anything to get our spouses to end their affair. So as long as his wife continues on, he can only wait or file for divorce. Those are his only alternatives. Basically, he's waiting for the affair to die on its own. Meanwhile, I see alot of evidence to indicate the focus on continuing his life and self development. The guy does alot for his daughters, takes them on great trips, and keeps busy. He's not sitting around moping waiting for the return.<P>Only Chris can decide when he no longer wants to wait. I personally think that at some point, the magnitude of the horror of the infidel's continued intentional infliction of pain does become unforgivable, even if the infidel does come back. When that point hits, there really is no point in going on. Each of us has a different threshold. But those that post here really want their marriages recovered. I don't think any of us should encourage someone that doesn't want a divorce and has no intention of filing for one to start pursuing that course of action. Whether or not it's the right thing is entirely for Chris to decide. But please don't chide him for lacking dignity in front of his wife at a funeral. LOOK AT WHAT SHE'S DOING. She's the one who should, and probably does, avoid eye contact with people at these settings. Her shame must be enormous. She's the one lacking self respect.<P>The fact is, there are serious emotional issues with anyone that will abandon their children like this (my husband too). I am sure of that. She is not doing this to hurt Chris. She's doing this because she is in some way sick. Unfortunately, there's no evidence of her getting better. But I don't think it's the right perspective to view her as evil. Her behavior is not normal or rational.<P>Chris, I give you a big pat on the back for how you're handling this. Someday you'll be rewarded.

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Distressed,<P>GREAT POST!!! Add me to the list - H has been in the affair almost 10 months- left home and will not work on anything yet has done nothing about divorce either. He does not live with the OW, she lives in a neighboring state but he goes there almost weekly, now. We have a blended family of 6 kids age 27 - 18 years and he has basically "forgotten" them, family members and friends, too.<P>You are right - we have 2 choices - divorce or wait it out. And, yes, we can not force them to give up their affairs, either. Somehow, my gut keeps telling me to hang on. I imagine that is what it is like for you, Chris and others.<P>I do not know if I could hang on as long as Chris, because his W has been gone a really long time. But, I do agree that only the person involved can know when enough is enough. No one else!<P>Steve Harley told me that eventually my love for my H would die, if he never came back. No deposits. None of my needs would be being met. Certainly the life I am living now is NOT what I want for the long haul. I want to share my life with someone I love who loves me back. I am sure so do you, Chris and the others.<P>So, if Chris' W never comes back, in time, his love for her will die to a level where he may not want to wait anymore. On the other hand, I know many people who have only loved once in their lifetimes. Who knows if me or anyone else will ever find another love, even if we start looking? <P>I most certainly agree that Chris did nothing wrong at the funeral. Both you and Sheba point to his sensitive and caring nature. Women like a man who cares!!<P>Chris, You are living YOUR life. You are moving forward and making a good life for yourself and those girls. When you are ready, I feel confident you will make any changes you see fit, including divorce if that is what you decide you are ready for.<P>Hugs to you........<P>Roll Me Away<BR><P>------------------<BR>"Life is made up, not of great sacrifices or duties, but of little things in which smiles and kindnesses and small obligations, given habitually, are what win and preserve the heart and secure comfort."<P>Sir Humphry Davy<BR>

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Add another name to the list. Yes there comes a point in time that Chris may decide that he no longer wants to wait for his wife, but each of us is unique in when our love dies. I think a lot is determined not only how strong the love is but also how strong the person is. Yes it is hard to still love someone whom you have had no contact with for awhile and it is hard to try to rebuild with no contact. (I know it has been four months for me) But we also know that these affairs do not last. Someday the spouse will be dropped from that fantasyland in to reality and the drop is not a easy one. We want to be there for our spouse. That is part of the love to be there for them. <P>It the situation had been reversed would it then be okay for the female to cry why. To me it show caring and loving and emotions. Why should the man have to be the tough one. If my H had been able to deal with his feelings I would not be posting here.<P>I know we are all answer for Chris and I know Chris can take care of himself, but this is a place we come to rebuild our marriages even if we have a long wait. We want to make the effort because we care.<P>------------------<BR>di<P>

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Chris and all,<P>I don't really think even if you filed for divorce things would happen that quickly. I filed for divorce last March. I am still not divorced. My h has made no effort to divide assets. I don't know what I am going to do. I have scheduled a mediation. He called and said that it was going to be too expensive. <P>What I am trying to say is hang in there. You will know when it is over. You do eventually lose feelings for them when they are gone for so long. For me it was a year. I would not let anyone tell you what you need to do to have self respect. You obviously already have plenty of it. Just keep taking care of your family and you will know when it is over or not.<P>Take care and I hope you resolve your job thing soon.<P>GP

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Hi Chris,<P> I agree with what everyone else said about knowing your limit and I also do not think crying when you saw your W at a funeral shows a lack of self respect.<P> I can see how Managing is thinking though.....I think everyone just hates the amount that you have had to endure and the pain that you have and I think Managing somehow would just like to make it better for you....hang in there Chris, whoever you end up with will be one lucky lady!! Lu

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As one of the other guys with kids here, I have deep admiration for what Chris is doing. It would be so easy to just throw in the towel and be divorced.<P>I have envied Chris' situation in that his spouse was out of sight and he didn't have to go through the torture that I did/do in seeing my stbx on a regular basis and her acting like I'm some sort of old friend.<P>I have also pitied Chris in that he has not had the opportunity like I had( I had a week!) to work on his marriage so he is forced to wait it out, to see if his w will return to his senses.<P><BR>As for the crying, I went thru the same thing, even when it was only a couple days between sightings. I can't imagine the builtup emotion of waiting almost a year.<P><BR>As other have said, Chris will eventually have to make a decision, and I belive he has a date set, but he will always be able to say he gave his marriage every opportunity to succeed. He did not quit.<P>Managing, I'm sure Chris will appreciate your viewpoint.

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I would certainly never say anything derogatory in regards to Chris' efforts, as they have been beyond reproach; I doubt there's <B>anyone</B> here who has been through the wringer to the degree Chris has. His efforts have been nothing short of <I>amazing.</I> Donna is another matter, and there is one thing about her that has bothered me ever since Chris mentioned it, both the first time and in his "letter" last week. Managing also mentioned it above, so maybe it's time for me to add my thoughts.<P>It's the incident it the stairwell… 17 years ago. Chris, please forgive me, but I don't think that was mere drunkenness, or an aberration. Rather, I believe it was part of a pattern in her life, what I referred to in my OW as being a "Serial Adulterer." That similarity didn't jump out to me until you wrote of the incident in the stairwell, but I think the comparison is valid.<P>Now, before you get nutso on me (as would anyone who had just heard what someone said about the spouse they love as much as I know you love Donna), let me explain my reasoning. My OW and I had, as an aspect of the fantasy we were living, a depth of conversation and knowledge of each other that was really astounding. I knew, for example, that she had been cheating on her H for nearly as long as she had known him. Of course, our amazing "soulmate" (blech!) "love" (heave!) would never allow that to happen after <B>we</B> were together, (retch!) but that was beside the point. At the time, none of her history mattered to me. A friend of mine even said, "I detect a pattern here" when I told him of a few of the things she had done, and that was <B>before</B> she cheated on me (actually her H, of course) twice more before things finally fell apart.<P>My point is… her H called me back this last spring, a year after the affair ended. Knowing she was in another affair and wondering (and likely hoping) if it was with me. Remember? He came back to one of my comments about just being another on her list with that she "didn't have a history of this kind of thing." But boy, does she ever. She has him majorly snowed… just like I think Donna has you. I think he was hoping it was with me, so as to be a "continuation" rather than another instance he would have to put a blind eye to. Else he might finally have to admit he was married to someone who had been like that for nearly as long as he had known her.<P>I think the three incidents you know of are just the tip of the iceberg, but of course, that's just a gut feeling. My OW slept with half of her H's fraternity while they were dating in college, and he never knew. And in my insanity, that didn't matter to me.<P>You of course, are the only one who knows if there is more to that iceberg, or if it's even possible. Do I think you should proceed immediately for divorce, as suggested by Managing? Of course not. I think you are a rock, and will know when it is time, if that time ever comes. Those tough decisions will be made by you when the time is necessary, with you doing what is right not only for you, but for your girls as well. Doing what is right is only half of it; doing it at the right time is the other half.<P>If you hope that time never comes (and you obviously do hope that), then I hope it as well. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] And I hope against anything that my gut feeling is wrong. But I have so much compassion for you and what you are going through that I couldn't <B>NOT</B> tell you about the remarkable similarities I see between what little you have let us see of Donna and the Serial Adulterer I was in "love" (blech!) with at one time.<P>You know her better than anyone in the world… not the doppelganger infesting her body right now, but the REAL her.<P>Or do you?<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

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Well, I guess this calls for a response on my part, eh?<P>Managing,<BR><B>your wife abandoned you and the family</B><BR>Absolutey true. No arguments at all. Except from her. She feels she didn’t abandon the kids, we’re just <I>separated</I>. But she’s a loon right now. There is NO logic in her thinking.<P><B>I suggest you divorce her immediately</B><BR>But I don’t want a divorce.<P><B>That scene you described in San Francisco and the thoughts about the shotgun, frankly was pathetic</B><BR>Pathetic, possibly, but why? ‘Cause I was hurting so much? Jeez. I’m only human ‘ya know. The woman I have loved for 21 years, for more than half my life just walks out on me & the kids. What do you expect?<P><B>do you have any idea how many women are dying for the emotional support and feeling you can provide?</B><BR>Yes I do understand which is why I am NOT in the ballgame. I’m not ready to play. When I am, it’s gonna be a grand slam at the bottom of the ninth in the World Series for me & some lucky woman (still hopefully my Wife.<P><B>You need a female friend and confidant.</B><BR>Sure, but I’m not ready for it yet. Haven’t you read any of Harleys advice? Don’t get involved with single women at all, especially in my circumstances. I KNOW where it could lead & I’m NOT gonna go there!<P><B>My god man, pick yourself off the matt and get yourself into the ballgame.</B><BR>I’m off the matt. I’m in the ball game of life. I’m in the ball game of being a father & taking care of myself. Don’t think I just sit around and pity myself, bawling like a baby constantly. I don’t.<P><B>Do it for your kids as well. They could benefit from a female role model that doesn't bolt like a cat for "no reason".</B><BR>Yes they could. But I have talked to them about relationships. I have explained to them what I am doing & why. I have also told them I’m not gonna wait around forever, but in order for me to teach them anything, then actions speak MUCH louder than words. If I dump her now, then the kids will see that marriages are “disposable.” They aren’t. As much as it is their lives I’m dealing with it is my life more. I have to live up to <B>ME</B> & my expecatations. Nothing less will do for me.<P>I believe in myself more than anyone here could ever know. Do I know where my life is going? No, but I know when I get there I will be standing with my head held high knowing I did what was right and I’ll have two emotionally healthy kids right next to me.<P>Sheba, You are very correct in saying that I’m “lucky” because she is not around because I don’t have to deal with her at all.<P>Distressed,<P><B>If the current behavior of the infidel were in fact consistent with their past behavior, we probably should have divorced them long ago.</B><BR>Very true. Her behavior seems normal EXCEPT in our relationship. It is not like them in ANY way. Like someone has taken over that portion of her brain. If it was in any way like the past then I would have bolted long before now.<BR><B>When she crashes, there will be no bottom.</B><BR>You are correct. The crash will be heard ‘round the world.<P>Lu,<BR>You hit a point exactly. The psychologist in my men’s group said the same thing. “We are all hurting and mad at you for the amount of pain you are putting yourself through.” Sure it’s tough, but it is something I HAVE to do. People don’t wish to see others suffer & we sometimes wonder if they’re stupid or something as to why they don’t get out of the situation.<P>Whodat, Of course I have been wondering if there were other “incidents.“ Obviously I would like to believe there wasn’t, but I truly cannot recall a time when there may have been any others. I may be wrong, Lord don’t let me be, but I don’t think I am. Perhaps one day I will know, perhaps not.<P>If anyone here has read Surviving An Affair (most probably have) then you know Harley advises to wait for two years. This is my goal. Insane? Some think so. Impossible? No, but very difficult. He didn’t just pick a number out of a hat when he decided. It was chosen because things may take this long to work out, whether it is for the affair to end (she still may not come back) or for my love to die.<P>I am doing the best I can and I feel I am doing it very well thank you. I will have no regrets when all is said & done. I respect the opinion of others and will gladly listen to anything they have to say. But it is my life & I have to live with the decisions I make. I am happy with what I have accomplished and with my goals. It isn’t easy by any means, but the alternatives are worse.<P>Thank you all for your support and opinions. You have made it MUCH easier for me to get to where I am today.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A><p>[This message has been edited by Chris (CA123) (edited December 12, 1999).]

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Bravo, Chris! <P>I know what it is like to have a well-meaning individual tell me that I'm doing the wrong thing. It's one of the reasons I rarely post about my situation here anymore.<P><B>We are <I>not</I> demeaning ourselves by loving our spouses!</B> And we have immense self-respect - without it, we would be saying "I must not be worth loving." And we <B>know</B> we are worth loving.<P>Issuing ultimatums is no way to win self-respect. Initiating divorce proceedings is no way to influence children. We love ourselves AND we love our spouses - and we will stand for our marriages until our spouses come to their senses or until <B>we</B> are ready to move on. That will happen at different times for us all.<P>Thanks to all who wrote in support of Chris - I feel as if you all wrote in support of me as well, and that is a <B>great</B> feeling.<P>I think I may hold the current record for the longest separated at 13 months (15 months since discovery). I, too, am holding out for the maximum - unless I find that I don't want to do it anymore. I, too, have a busy life (my poor cats barely recognise me because I'm never home) with plenty of things to do. I'd rather do many of them WITH my husband, but I am not sitting at home crying because he isn't sharing them with me.<P>We have our ups and we have our downs. The downs are difficult, and the ups make the downs hurt worse ... but I wouldn't give them up for anything. Don't make us feel like we can't share here unless we are prepared to get battered by someone else's righteous indignation on our behalf...<P><B><I>I love my husband!</I></B><P>Thanks all...<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR>I believe in miracles...<P><BR>

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Chris-<BR>Applause! Applause!<BR>Salute to perseverence.<P>Although I have not been in your situation, I admire your endurance. You were right about not letting your kids think marriage is disposable. In society today, we are too lazy to fix our mistakes, we would rather wad them up like paper and toss it away and just get out a clean sheet and start over. We have come to a point where most will not take the time and effort to repair just disgard and replace. Your kids will look back and see the valiant effort on your part, no matter what the outcome.<P>I agree with the others in the fact that YOU, and you only, will know when and if the time comes, to switch gears.<P>Stay consistent with your words, your kids are watching.<P>God Bless.<P>Duck and Weave

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Hi gang,<P>I'll jump in on this one too. I'm right smack in the middle on this topic. Chris, I do think Managing asked some good questions. And, yes sometimes I believe "tough love" is the most-helpful thing a friend can offer. Even if it is the most-risky. Sometimes, a caring friend can be the only effective bearer of a difficult message.<P>I'm also with WhoDat on the "pattern" question. It occurred to me as well. Hopefully, Donna's not some serial adulterer (sorry about your OW, truly Whodat!). But, there is some evidence here to be considered.<P>Lots of us have gotten to know you well here, Chris. And, we do care for you. As you've suggested, that's one source of anger directed at you. I'd suggest it's not really at "you" it's towards your situation or your wife. Since we care about YOU, sometimes we can't help but get angry when we see you hurting.<P>Your situation is different. For that matter, aren't all of ours? We tend to look for similarities in other's experiences...helps to make sense of ours. Consider this: when I first came on the board and met you, I had a very gut-level reaction, "OMG! It's him!"<P>Huh? What's with that? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] Well, my OW's from Calif. ran off with a guy from Arkansas, left a good H and two kids. Geez, are you her H? <P>Ummmm....nope. LOL. But, see what I mean? We do tend to look for similarities and patterns. Some match, some don't.<P>Well, I'm getting long-winded so I'll wrap it with this...<P>Chris, only you know when enough's enough. That doesn't mean ignore what others are suggesting. A lot of us try to be helpful. But, continue to go down your own road.<P>You've got a lotta class, a lotta grit, and I relate to your sense of duty and honor. You've got to live with yourself and do the right thing for you and your kids. Only you can decide what "right" is. But...be vigilant!<P>Take care.<BR>Having said that,

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Chris:<P>I thought my comments might be somewhat obtuse. Please allow me to clarify despite the limitations of the format.<P>1. About the self respect, that was directed at the shotgun to the mouth comment. Anyone who would take their own life has no self respect.<P>2. The Crying: I believe that you intended to see your spouse at the funeral and that was a factor for your decision to go. You wanted to see her. The fact that you broke down was in no way a "gender-related" comment, merely that you dishonor the dead by bringing your problems to the table. I have strong feelings imprinted upon me about funerals. The price I pay by being raised by an Eastern European Catholic mother.<P>3. I also detected a pattern that Who Dat did. For your wife, the relationship is over.<BR>Sorry, this is what I believe from your comments. I have no idea what her motivations are, nor do I pretend that I do.<P>4. The comments about other relationships: I believe you could benefit from a new perspective.<P>4. Finally, I do believe that to accept change you must in some way control it. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Serving Divorce papers may in fact, initiate contact (which you do not have the benefit of, unlike most on this forum) and start a dialog. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense. I realize you will HAVE to follow your own timeline. Besides, if we truly believe "true" love will return, then she will return no matter what.<P>Take care, I hope these comments reach you. Make your own good luck.<P>Managing

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Chris:<P>I hope you realize I certainly wasn't questioning either your resolve to your chosen path or even that path itself. If there is one thing you have been, it's been consistent. There are people here I see committing matrimonial suicide by their actions or lack thereof, but that is of course their choice. You are NOT one of these people… consistency has been your watchword, and you have gone above and beyond the call of duty in your efforts.<P>That's why I replied to Managing in a different manner than the rest: they defended your actions, while I feel that is YOUR place. My post was more in response to Donna's actions than yours. While I hope you are right, and there were no other opportunities, you haven't been able to be with her 24/7 for the last 20 years, and opportunities are <B>always</B> there. While an affair like the one she is now in (or even that coupled with the one 10 years ago) could possibly be attributed to lack of communication coupled with unmet needs, what happened in that stairwell is, IMO, more indicative of a mindset. A mindset all to familiar to me, as I saw it in my OW.<P>FWIW, I think your longtime advice, "Do not file for divorce unless you want a divorce" should continue to be your watchwords. I know they will, and you have your head screwed on as straight as possible in these bizarre circumstances. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Oh and Dunc… no need to feel sorry for me in regards to my OW, rather feel sorry for her H. She did me a favor greater than she will ever know, in showing me how precious the life was I so desperately tried to throw away. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR><P>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die

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Managing,<P><B>1. About the self respect, that was directed at the shotgun to the mouth comment. Anyone who would take their own life has no self respect.</B><BR>Which is one reason I didn't do it. I also havetwo very, very good reasons. My kids.<P><B>2. The Crying: I believe that you intended to see your spouse at the funeral and that was a factor for your decision to go. You wanted to see her. The fact that you broke down was in no way a "gender-related" comment, merely that you dishonor the dead by bringing your problems to the table.</B><BR>I told my SIL I would go as soon as I heard. In fact, she told me my Wife was NOT going to go & I only found out she would attend on the way to the airport.<BR>"My problems" were not brought to the table at the funeral. I was simply feeling the loss of my brother in law & the grieving of his widow. True, my problems have really made my feelings surface so I was much more emotional than I normally would have been. I left the funeral home because I didn't want the family to think I was simply bawling 'cause I'm in a pile of [censored].<P><B>3. I also detected a pattern that Who Dat did. For your wife, the relationship is over. Sorry, this is what I believe from your comments.</B><BR>It very well could be over, we won't know until ??? or I decide. I'm still not gonna throw in the towel 'till I choose to do so.<P><B>4. The comments about other relationships: I believe you could benefit from a new perspective.</B><BR>I agree very much. I learn something every day here & as I said before, I'm willing to listen to anything, but the decision is mine & mine alone.<P><B>4. Finally, I do believe that to accept change you must in some way control it. You are stuck between a rock and a hard place. Serving Divorce papers may in fact, initiate contact (which you do not have the benefit of, unlike most on this forum) and start a dialog. Sometimes the best defense is a good offense.</B><BR>It could, but I'm not willing to risk it if there is anything to risk at this point. I'm following Harleys advice. I'm not gonna bail because it's "too rough." I have things to do in my life to enable me to save the marriage or save myself from the marriage. Read the book. Tell me Jon didn't have it hard. My Wife is simply gone. He got screwed over & over in terrible ways but he stuck it out & they got back together.<P>Whodat,<BR>Yes I have thought about this over the last year (okay, it's only been 350 since discovery, but who's counting [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]). So maybe I did marry someone who's a whore (for lack of a better word. I really don't think she is). She does have problems which may run very deep. I may never know.<P>I am sticking by my watchwords and will continue to do so.<P>It really makes me feel so good that you are where you are. Understanding what you did & what you almost gave up. You're Wife is a very lucky lady. Does she know it?<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

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Add me to the list Distressed described. A spouse who does not seek divorce and stays away. (won't say wants out or wants in during limited communication). Also, it it like Jeckle and Hyde. He is not the man I've known for years. I filed for divorce on 12/2. I do not want a divorce but believe he would languish in this between world forever if I did not act. I hope he is jolted and takes action but I cannot live like it has been. I am so torn, tomorrow is the hearing that declares us legally separated. I almost decided to cancel it but then I fell back to why I acted now. (My H's behavior had made major withdrawals on his love account and showed no hope of deposits any time soon.)<BR>I cannot keep covering our financial obligations and emotionally I cannot maintain much longer leaving this in an open state.) <P>RAn off topic, the point is that the decison to let it ride longer or act is wrenching. I've been gong thru it for a time but not near as long as Chris. It is a nightmare to any of us in these points of decison. <P> In my state you can file for divorce and let it ride indefinitely. I don't want divorce but I had to let him know this was serious. I felt good when I filed, horrible when I realized this is the likely beginning of the end. Despite my H's saying he doesn't want divorce he had done NOTHING to show he wants the marriage. I cannot continue this waiting. <P>Add me to the list of folks in similar positions. Want you to know I'm here too. <P>Chris, you will act when you feel compelled as I did after several events in the past week--Unless your W finally comes to her senses. My H would have let it ride forever. He may now definitley discard our relationship rather than deal with me filing for divorce, but I could not continue as it was. I have the luxury of no children with him which makes it so much simpler. I truly admire you for taking the stance that you must role model to your children that marriage is not disposable. My H's father modeled that marriages were disposable and the oldest son already disposed of one and now I think it is my husand's turn even though he was estranged from his father over this. Bless you in trying to teach the sacredness of marriage and bless you in making your life decsions as you see fit. <P>Melissa<BR>

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chris,<BR> I have a favorite saying that fits this WHOLE saving your marriage from the jaws of death thing. <P> "YOU DON'T ALWAYS GET WHAT YOU GO AFTER, BUT YOU NEVER GET WHAT YOU DON'T GO AFTER"<P> It's from a movie. Anyone remember which one?<P> Anyway, you have a LOT more cards than distressed wants to give you credit for.<BR> 1) Your kids (a pair of Aces) only YOU are their father.<BR> 2) HER family loves and respects you.<BR> 3) You are a really good and forgiving guy.<BR> 4) You ARE and have been Married to her for over 20 years!! She MUST love you SOMEWHERE in her heart.<BR> I could go on. But these are the MAJOR cards. I'm sure they will come into play someday for you. Hang brother. And Pray. FRANK<P>------------------<BR>desperate<BR>"If yesterday didn't stop today, Why should TODAY stop tomorrow??" <BR>"Wisdom is why!!"<P>

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Chris:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> So maybe I did marry someone who's a whore (for lack of a better word. I really don't think she is). <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>OK... I don’t think she is either... your use of that word actually made me jump up in my seat. I was NOT trying to say that, but maybe there IS something wrong with her deep down. Again, the similarities to my OW cry out to me on this point. She needed to validate her own sense of self worth by sleeping with other men, pure and simple. She supposedly loved her H, but wasn’t attracted to him at all, so he couldn’t validate her the way her screwed up mind needed to be validated. She married him for stability, someone to take care of her, and most importantly the house they would someday buy from his parents. But she couldn’t get a sense of self-worth from him. She doesn’t even realize it has to come from within, and she’s likely still looking for it in other men everywhere she goes.<P>Sad, actually. But they’re both willing to live like that, so better that way than making two other people’s lives miserable.<P>She certainly didn’t expect to fall in “love” (gag!) with me; but as she played my emotions, I wound up appealing to those she had suppressed for so long, by being married to a wooden man. It created a very vicious circle. But of course, she wasn’t attracted to <B>me</B> either (a fact she <B>never</B> let me forget), so I would just have been another spin in that circle of hers.<P>But <B>HER</B> watchwords were, “Well, I’ve done it before, so what does it matter now?” She wasn’t learning from her experiences, much like it seems Donna has not. Hopefully you will get a chance to learn <B>together.</B><P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR> It really makes me feel so good that you are where you are. Understanding what you did & what you almost gave up. You're Wife is a very lucky lady. Does she know it?<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] Thanks for the vote of confidence. She says she knows it. In fact, we spoke about how lucky we <B>BOTH</B> are just recently. One of the many things I have learned from implementing the MB principles is to talk very openly and frankly. Our fear was the greatest stumbling blocks... fear of what the other person might think or say. But honesty is <B>MY</B> watchword, and the replies we feared have always been worse than the actual ones. <P>I think I am lucky that she had enough faith in me to stick things out, while I worked on myself and us (using many of the MB principles) to get us to the point we are now. We’re working <B>together,</B> and our reward has been a better marriage than we ever had, even though there is still quite a ways to go. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><BR>------------------<BR>Resentment is like taking poison and waiting for the other person to die<p>[This message has been edited by WhoDat (edited December 13, 1999).]


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