Hi Cerri,
I usually post in the EN forum and a couple people told me I should post my question in a thread here to get some feedback from you, but I cannot find the thread that they were talking about.

I'm curious about porn addictions.

How do you know if someone is actually addicted to porn?

My guy likes looking at porn as I suspect most guys do. I think that women who tell their husbands they cannot look at porn are setting themselves up to be lied to...they all do it, and if they don't then they either hold a great deal of resentment or do something else to fill the void. I just don't think that telling a guy he cannot look at porn is a realistic request or demand.

We sometimes watch downloaded videos together to get in the mood. Last night I asked him to tell me a secret...a sexual secret. He played along and told me that last week after we had sex and I fell asleep, he got out of bed and masturbated to online porn. He says this is the only time he's done that right after sex, but admitted that he has watched porn on his
computer while I have been asleep (about 2 feet from his monitor) on several occasions (which include but are not limited to while I'm on my period).
I'm greatly appreciative of his lack of a refractory period...lots of times he'll be ready to go a second round within minutes of his first orgasm.

So, here's my problem with porn. It makes me feel that I am not fulfilling him to satisfaction. He claims I do. Second, I wonder if he desires other women and is using porn as a substitute for infidelity (of course this is better than actually cheating on me).

It's not the actual act of watching porn that bothers me (I do it with him sometimes) but the underlying message that it sends.

We have sex about 5-6 times a week and he has agreed with me that it is really great. I don't think that him looking at porn has in any way detracted from our love making.
After he told me about this last night, I told him that I feel a little uncomfortable for the reasons listed above, but don't want to ask him to change anything. I asked if I ever feel like the porn viewing is detrimental to our sex life or our relationship that he will be willing to re-evaluate his decision to view it. He responded absolutely.

I'm pretty sure that if he wanted to he could stop looking at it all together. Sure, he'd probably miss that bit of enjoyment, but I'm not so sure that this is an addiction. I can't think of anything else in either of our lives that constitutes a true addiction. I don't want to take something that he enjoys away from him without good reason. As long as the sex is great and he's not cheating on me, I don't think that me feeling a little self-conscious is good enough reason to ask him to stop something he enjoys.

So, is it possible this is an addiction? How would I know? If I'm okay with the act and it's not hurting our sex life, is there any reason to worry?

Thanks for any feedback.

Smile

At first i wanted to sugercoat my wrds, then felt that being honest is best. It seems like it bothers you, but it also seems like it inot a problem in your relationship. If you are okay with it, and it has not effected your relationship, then that is good. But i do caution you to not be nieve about this, as i once was, and i have learnd the hard way that what sometime seems one is only that way becuase i did not dig deeper. Now, i am not saying to question him because t seems already from my post in the other forum about my site, youhave already begun to wonder, and brought your emotions to the front. However, i do want to say this....

He may Masturbate to porn, and fantasize about these women, girls, teens, fetishes, whatever his thing is,..... it is all a fantasy right? but know this. His cum is real.

I pray from the deepest part n me that he is not addicted, because i would not wish this on another human being for the life of me, It is a hard struggle to keep the faith when this has entered your home full blast. May you find the peace in your heart your needing....

Laura - http://www.secretaddictions.com/forum/

Hi.... Out most of today... making our regular trip to the dentist for the week. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Possibly here tomorrow. Back full time with (what seems to be) a fully functioning internet connection <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> on Tuesday. If I get a chance to pop in before then, I will.

Good questions by the way. If you can, pick up or order the book... In the Shadows of the Net by Carnes et al... about cybersex addiction. Excellent.

C

Hi SmileADay,

BOTH the suggestions you received so far are good ones and I would recommend that you take both to heart......Patrick Carnes is a pioneer and expert on sexual addictions....I have read many of his books...except his new one that Cerri suggests to you...I'm sure it is really worth your money and your time. If it is like any of his other books, it will certainly have guidelines for determining whether or not one has this type of addiction. That will answer some of your questions. You will have to really open your eyes in order to determine this!!

Secondly, IF he is addicted, be prepared for the fact that he will MINIMIZE the amount of time he is utilizing this avenue. Reading what you have written does set off alarms for me. But it will be you, who knows the situation best, who can discover the extent of this.

When I discovered my H's phone sex addiction, he not only had logical reasons for why he was doing it, but also told me it only happened twice. Only by my own investigations did I find in our short M that it was more like a hundred times, and that the behavior dated back to 1995.

I would suggest that you not use his words as your only way of judging what the truth is in this. The fact that you posted here leads me to feel that deep down, you are really wondering and sorting this all out....despite what he has said.

Roberta

Thank you all for the thoughtful responses.

Laura, I appreciate your honesty. The main purpose for posting my questions about this topic is to dispel my own ignorance. Of course, it's a touchy subject, not because I don't think he'll be honest, but because I don't think I've experienced problems as the result of his habit...and don't want to cause any problems. Fortunately, he is open to talk about this. Hopefully, I will find some ideas here on how far I should push the subject at this point and what approach to use. I think the book Cerri mentioned will be a good start. OTOH, I don't know how much of my energy/emotions I want to put into this --in the sense that I don't want to make it a bigger deal than it really is, thus creating problems. That's why I want feedback to see if it might be that big of a deal.

Roberta, thanks for your response. I'm not concerned about lying...that has never been an issue for us. Neither of us lie to each other (I'm pretty confident about this because I've learned to cope with the truth on a regularly basis), but he does tend to not introduce things that he's not comfortable talking about...like this one. I'd never asked before, and even this time I didn't ask directly about porn, but I think he knew what I was asking and chose to answer honestly...thankfully. My goal is to not attack in any way (I don't want him to feel like he's being punished for his honesty) and also not to take something away from him that he enjoys unless I think it is a real problem.

Cerri, thanks for poking your head in. I look forward to reading your response. Sorry to hear about the weekly dentist visits <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

All feedback is appreciated. Please don't feel the need to sugarcoat your responses.

Smile

Hmmm....don't mean to sound harsh here, but I hope you aren't setting yourself up for a rude awakening.

He does have an addiction sweetie and it probably is MUCH WORSE than you realize. Know that anytime he is giving his attention to another woman via internet or not, he is unfaithful to you. You may think this is harmless, but if you are considering marrying this man, you better get clear on your boundaries now.

Whew! Don't mean to be on a soap box, but I recognize that naievity from a mile away. Maybe because I had some of it myself when I first met my H. Let me tell you that our first year together ended up being the year from hell and I will never be the same person again. I thought he harmlessly was on singles websites and chatting that would immediately end once he moved in with me and especially once we were married. And I thought I could deal with the porn since the women weren't "real".

Do yourself a favor and don't sell your soul to please him! The devil does his best work through the internet.

Hang on and good luck!

onlyUcan,

Really good advice for her and a wake up call that is needed here! The truth is the truth and disentangling from the lies is step one in the process.......We ought to know.....been there, done that!

Roberta

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 11:49 AM: Message edited by: Roberta61 ]</small>

Thanks for your honesty, OnlyUCan. My BF has been open about this topic. He doesn't know at this point if he has a problem, but he is going to read this thread and AbsentmindedProfessor's thread on addictions today. He has been very open to reading threads that I think might shed light on various issues in our relationship and future marriage. I'm thankful for that and that he doesn't take my suggestions as disrespectful judgments.

I think one of the things that makes me think that what he does isn't such a big deal is that his actions don't seem different from that of many of his peers and of course the media makes him look pretty normal, as well. For instance, we both like watching The Man Show (comedy central) together. It's extremely crude and derogatory toward women...but funny when it is separated from reality (I guess this brings up the question, is he separating it from reality the way I am or does he find humor for different reasons than I do?). That show is packed full with men that seem very normal, if not stereotypical of 20-35 year old men, and they probably watch far more porn than my BF. If I was wounded by my BF's actions, then what other people do would not matter...our relationship is what is important. But, right now (because there doesn't seem to be any negative effects from his habits) our relationship is not hurt. I'm not trying to be defensive, but rather really see if he has a problem if his friends and the media portray him as "normal". If he does have a problem, I agree that now is the time to address it. Hopefully, absentmindedprofessor's thread will start some questions rolling in my BF's mind.

Thanks...your thoughts on these ideas are appreciated. I really want you to know that I'm not trying to be defensive. I don't want to make a problem where there is none.

Smile

<small>[ September 01, 2003, 03:36 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

First let me say that for myself, I don't like porn. I have a feeling that most of the people involved in the making of porn are people who wouldn't be in that situation if they had a choice...low-selfesteem, past abuse, whatever the reason, I just feel sorry for these women and men. Who would degrade themselves on purpose? But that's another issue...
What I really wanted to share was about your question of if your BF has an addiction. My husband is a recovering alcoholic. One of the first things I heard from AA/Al-Anon was that something is an addiction IF you can't quit (may want to, but can't) doing "it" even though "it" causes pain to people you love. I think this can be true for ANY type of addiction.

I hope this helps!

Faith

My H used to watch porn. He told me it was only once in a while, which did not bother me... until I found his movie rental card (for adult place), and he had used up all his rentals. Turns out that after I went to work (we worked different shifts), he would go out and rent a couple movies almost every day!!! He finally admitted it to me, and I suggested therapt. H said "no way, I don't need help." Well, a couple of months later he had an A.

I'm NOT saying that every man that watched porn is going to run out and cheat, but I really wonder why a man in a relationship would need that extra "stimulation".

MAC, sweetheart!
Hello!
Where have you been?

Remember me?
I used to be 2NDFIDDLE!
hugs hugs hugs

xo
Hypatia

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm NOT saying that every man that watched porn is going to run out and cheat, but I really wonder why a man in a relationship would need that extra "stimulation".
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Aside from already knowing that men generally have a much greater sex drive than women (and I can't decide if I'm jealous of testosterone-laden people or not), I couldn't help but to ask my BF this question. He claims that masturbation is just different. Even if we had more sex together, he would still want this different type of stimulation. He also feels that using porn satisfies what he claims is a man's natural desire for other women (instinctively/evolutionarily speaking). IOW, something that would prevent him from cheating on me. [background: he had 2 ONS with women during the 1st and 2nd year of our relationship while living long distance.]

Do others think this is a logical response, or a defensive/protective one?

He realizes that my mind is not satisfied on this issue and he has yet to read the thread (which is growing amazingly fast) by Absentmindedprofessor.

So in sum, my BF claims that using porn and masturbating is a thrill separate from sex with me and does not reflect his dissatisfaction in our sexual relationship. He doesn't think he would (could?) stop if I did have a problem with it. Yet, he says he feels guilty about it which is what made him keep it a secret. At least this is how I've interpreted our conversations. 5X, please pipe in if I've gotten any of this wrong.

Please remember that we are trying very hard to stick to radical honesty. I don't think him telling me he wouldn't stop if I didn't approve is something disasterous because I think most guys feel this way, but wouldn't/couldn't admit it without being torn a new one. At least, this is what I keep telling myself. More naivety?

Thanks for the comments. We're both reading them and taking them into consideration. Any thoughts on his responses above?

Smile

I started a poll for men in the EN forum on the topic of porn use.

Poll for MEN ONLY!

Smile

<small>[ September 02, 2003, 12:12 PM: Message edited by: SmileADay ]</small>

Smile,
You and your BF are correct that men have higher sex drives than women, and that biologically speaking, a man's drive is to have sex with as many women as possible. This is an evolutionary adaptation to give his sperm the best possible chance of finding a fertile mate who will rear his offspring. The female's urge, on the other hand, is to find one male to not only impregnate her, but to stay with her and help her rear the offspring, as she knows it will be a big job and at the very least she will need someone to provide for her while she is nursing.
Sounds sort of like an animal study, doesn't it? That's because it is. We are all animals, only a tiny fraction removed from the great apes (which, by the way, are not monogamous).
So what makes us different from the great apes or any other animal for that matter? It's this marvelous brain we have which is large and folded many times and capable of amazing feats of intellect and reason.
I BELIEVE that as human beings we can override our animal urges using our excellently big brains. Of course, I am not a man and do not have such strong sexual urges. However, I too have been sexually drawn to other men besides my H. I have also had such animal urges like to run around screaming whenever I see blood, or to stay in bed all winter eating chips. But I overcome those urges by thinking rationally through it and deciding it's a bad idea. In the case of my H, what I want him to do from this point forward (D-Day: 8/12/03) is to think "Hmm...it would sure be tempting to give in to this particular animal urge. But it would really hurt my wife if I were to do that. So, I'm not going to do it." This applies to affairs, pornography, flirting, what have you. Would I agree enthusiastically to what he is doing? If not, I don't think he should do it. And the reverse is true too. Is this a "natural" or "evolutionary" way to be? Hell no. But we are humans, with elevated powers of reason, and we can decide _not_ to hurt our loved ones.
Sorry to go on and on. You can tell I'm a little bitter about this subject. But the upshot I'm getting at is, if it's hurting you or if you're not in enthusiastic agreement, I don't think there' s a place for it in a committed relationship (although granted you're not married yet). Porn can be a gateway to a lot of nasty things and if he justifies it by saying it's his evolutionary destiny to be attracted to multiple women, well, he's basically saying he has no more self control than an ape.
Is he addicted? If it bothers you, ask him to stop. If he can't stop, he's addicted.
-SIAS

When I first met my H, I was very open-minded. And I am a sexual person, according to him the most sexual person he has met other than himself. We have a great sex life. It didn't stop him from his addiction and sometimes in order to get the OW on the internet to participate in cyber-sex, he had to put in some emotional time. You know how we women are, more emotional than physical. Anyway, long story short....my H admitted that he was always in it just for the sex and that he would say whatever he needed to in order to get his fix. Well, when that was happening in our M, it affected and hurt me. I knew he was looking at the porn and I would always try to explain it away and continue to be open minded and occasionally watched a movie with him. In the end, I realized that it was a part of me that I was giving up and I wasn't willing to do that anymore. Sex in marriage can be sacred. God intended it to be that way. As a woman, you deserve to be honored and as long as his mind is filled with other types of sexual pleasure, you will never have him completely. My H was willing to read posts or books or talk about change, but he was not willing to ACT when it came right down to it. He got real good at telling me what I wanted to hear and later got real good at making me feel like it was my fault that he couldn't be "honest" with me.

Be careful! Be true to yourself.

I just want to say.....based on my own experience with the higher drive between me and my H, and on all the reading I've done here at MBers.....it is a generalization that men have higher sex drives than women.

Secondly.....Smile-a-day.....Please take the three statements you made as red flags at the very least!

1. He doesn't think he could (would?) quit if you had a problem with it. WOW! That means that although you are TRYING to have an honesty policy....this issue will hinder that, should you not like his use of pornography.....he will hid it.

2. He had two ons??? Problem alert! Caution ahead....don't think a M will change that one.

3. He NEEDS variety.

I'm nervous for you on this!

Roberta

<small>[ September 02, 2003, 12:24 PM: Message edited by: Roberta61 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Secondly.....Smile-a-day.....Please take the three statements you made as red flags at the very least!
1. He doesn't think he could (would?) quit if you had a problem with it. WOW! That means that although you are TRYING to have an honesty policy....this issue will hinder that, should you not like his use of pornography.....he will hid it.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, this is quite disconcerting, but it is honest. He doesn't think he would/could stop if I asked him to. Given that this is a problem, I don't see it as the root of a problem. If this problem needs to be addressed, I foresee it as being a problem of self-control, self-worth, committment, respect, etc. OTOH, what I'm learning here is that perhaps it is the root of the problem because it is an addiction and needs to be addressed as one. Either way, me requesting that he stops using porn will not eliminate the problem. He'll either keep doing it (being dishonest if I cannot accept that), he'll stop and likely resent me, or he'll realize it as an addiction and go from there.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
2. He had two ons??? Problem alert! Caution ahead....don't think a M will change that one.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't expect marriage to change the likelihood for infidelity or any other problems in our relationship. I appreciate his honesty and want to use that to avoid future problems. I do not think he will cheat on me, again. I do trust him. I have forgiven him for what happened early on in our relationship (please keep in mind our ages, the fact that we lived far apart so he could have time to himself, there was a very high level of temptation, and he was drunk). I know that he will have temptations in the future and his actions will depend on his commitment to me and our family and on his will power and self-control. I do not think they will depend on his use of porn (this might actually reduce the chances of infidelity) or ability to convince himself he has no desire for any other women.
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
3. He NEEDS variety.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NEEDS or WANTS? Big question. One that he needs to answer...I cannot try to answer this for him.

I have not ruled out the suggestion that I am being naive. Please don't take my continued discussion of your questions and suggestions as being defensive or unwilling to listen. I appreciate your time and openness.

Thank you.

Smile

You sound like a very intelligent woman. What saddens me is what you will become if this behavior crosses what you decide is "the line". That looks different for each and every person. For me, it definitely was infidelity in M that put me over the edge. Infidelity to me was EA's. My FWH did not do anything "in person" with these OW, but the fact that he was giving a part of himself that solely belonged in our M was cause enough for the pain and anguish that I have suffered.

I'm saddened that the strong resolve that you carry will be torn and broken when and if he crosses that line. I feel for you to have to be in such pain and torment.

Dig deep in yourself and find out if this is truly the man that you want to spend the rest of your life with. In that, maybe you will find the true answer.

According to Dobson, pornography is more addictive than cocaine.

Affairs are addictions, and in a sense, addictions are affairs. In an affair, someone else become more important than you to your spouse. In effect, they put someone else in your place. If your spouse puts anything or anyone other than God above you in importance in their life, they are having an affair with that person or thing. You bf has said explicitly that porn is more important to him than you are, hasn't he?

I recall an earlier post where you said you and he sort of intuitively used the POJA. If you stand by that claim, I think you better re-read it. Maybe YOU use it with HIM. But he is not even close to using it with you on this issue.

<small>[ September 02, 2003, 04:05 PM: Message edited by: johnh39 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You bf has said explicitly that porn is more important to him than you are, hasn't he? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No, I don't think he has said this, ever. Saying that he wouldn't stop if it bothered me is not the same as saying it is more important than me. His desire for that enjoyment may be more important than me being bothered, but I do not interpret that as porn being more important than me. If his use of porn made me miserable, I am confident he would work with me to find an alternative that kept me happy. I make an effort to not let it get to me so that he doesn't have to give up something he enjoys. It's like an annoying habit. I can live with this one if it doesn't pass my boundaries...same as all other annoying habits. If this is an addiction that is likely to progress past my boundaries and we can forecast that now, well...that's what I'm trying to get at.

Smile