I have been lurking for a few months now since my d-day in November. WW shows no signs of remorse and during recent conversation of her ongoing A told me 'I don't involve you in that.' How would one even respond to this? I will give more details of my situation in future posts but this line really has me flabbergasted.

Ongoing affair?

My short response is that an affair is a deal killer. Period. End of story. --- Next?

My only consideration otherwise is if there are minor children.

Then I think a pro needs to counsel you and your spouse. And I think the children come first, but that does not mean at any cost whatsoever. There still must be standards of spousal behavior that are not damaging to you.

You have to do the best you can in a bad situation, and I have learned that sometimes there are no good answers, only bad ones to choose from.

And frankly, if my spouse were to have sex with someone else, even once, never mind an ongoing sexual relationship, I would be disgusted at being sexual with them. Yech.

In my situation I do believe there was no sex and simply one night of chatting over old times. I am not happy with what happened, and I stand my ground on forgiving but not forgetting, but if I beleived there had been sex, it would all be over.

There are men and women who will have relationships that are faithful, loving, sexy, fun, flirtatious and valuable exclusively with their spouses. Why waste one's life with someone less?

"I dont involve you in that" = Shes doesnt think of you in regards to her A.

Probaly like most cookoo's who have A's, they see themselves as 2 people. One whos a wife and the other who is single. I havent figured out why they split into 2 different people, maybe they always were 2 people and carefuly hid it from us or maybe they split during the marriage.

We have a 6 year old son who loves us both dearly and I am trying to do what is best for him. WW seems to think what I don't know won't hurt me. I tried to explain that every second of her time wasted on OM was stolen from our family but like everything I say it fell on deaf ears. I found some cards and gift certificates for her birthday and Christmas expressing OM's love for her and she was not happy. Like all other WS's I was accused of invading her privacy and being nosey. Her and the OM are still in contact and he even calls my home, 4 times yesterday while I was at work. Should I contact him and tell him to stop calling my home?

vern I agree with you on the sex thing. It is not really a problem right now though because I got the 'I love you but I'm not in love with you' speech last May about six weeks after there was any intimacy between WW and I.

BL,
My H told me that he just separted the two womenin his life. He talked to her about me, but didn't think too much of it. It was more like when you tell one friend what another friend did. I asked him how he could have kissed her two minutes before he called me everyday at lunch...he didn't involve me! I was completely separate! It sucks, I know!
Keep strong!!!
True

It's strange to hear that about a woman (I don't involve you in that). It's called compartmentalizing. It's when you put different aspects of your life in "boxes." Men usually do this. At least they are accused of it. By compartmentalizing, people can justify an affair by thinking it had nothing to do with their spouse. It often comes in the verbal form of: "She meant nothing to me, I don't love her. I love you." That always makes me wonder "Then why did you do it?!" But it makes the person having an affair feel better.

OK BL

I've ben here now for a while so the first thing I noticed from you is that you seem to have no plan to end the affair. HAve you read the basics here???
Do you know about Plan A and PLan B?

All plans here are to first END the A and then begin recovery of the M if thats what you want. I say this because sometimes not all BS want their M any more.

I guess I do and It sounds like you do at this time. DONT WORRY YOU CAN FLUX BEYWEEN THE TWO EXTREMES ..... part of the process I think.

Please read this info below by clicking on the shortcut and then ask lots of questions and set up a plan. Frankly from the sounds of it you need some darn good advice from Harley if you can afford it. He does counselling over the phone but its not cheap - but is about the best you can get too from all I've seen.

The Path to Recovery: Johnh39's complement to WAT's quick-start guidelines

and this may give you some help as well ...

Exposure Thread

both helped me start off and got me to look at MC & IC for us both ...though I've not been the best about going as I feel W did it she can do most of the fixing.... dumb resentment <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> I know right now .. we guys get stubborn I guess at times.

anyway good luck and find a PLAN <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I've read Plan A and Plan B I am currently in IC and the WW and I were in MC for 6 months during which she started the affair. As far as exposure goes I am in a bad spot since my brother is currently going through a divorce caused by adultery and he exposed and there is a lot of animosity in our family. My parents are currently experiencing health problems and I don't want to burden them with this right now. Also my brother-in-law is going through a messy divorce and my mother-in-law is having a tough time with that.

My WW says one day that the OM's wife has moved out and knows about the affair and then the next day says she knows but doesn't know who. She tells me I'm the only one who knows she's seeing him like that is supposed to make a difference. I was in Plan A up until d-day and even after at which time my WW said she would stop seeing him to stay together as a family, of course this has not happened and she now informs me that she is going to keep seeing him. I have tried to contact the OM's wife but the phone is out of service. Should I expose to mutual friends?

At this point I am not sure I even want her back. She informed me that we would still be having these problems even if she hadn't had the affair which she only started because she was through with us. She ays she made this point clear in counseling but the MC who is now my IC says she doesn't remember that happening.

BL,

Your WW is deep in the fog right now. You are not dealing with the woman you married… you are dealing with an alien who has taken over your wife’s body.

This particular type of alien is a lot like a vampire – light kills them. It is critical that you expose the affair in a planned, systematic way. I understand that your family is dealing with other problems, but your problem has to be dealt with too. If left in the dark the thing controlling your wife will just get stronger.

In my case I exposed to WW’s father. He is the one person in the world who she simply could not stand to let down – talk about your vampires with sunburn – it crushed her. It was one of the hardest things I’ve ever had to do, but it was one of the two things that broke the devils grasp.

My WW also thought her affairs were about her – not me. When I caught her outright last November I forced her to get tested for STD’s and guess what – she contracted trichomoniasis from the last guy. When I exposed to her father I told him about that part too.

If I hadn’t caught her and forced her to get tested I would have been infected. So much for “I don’t involve you in that”.

Both of these things FORCED my wife to face reality, and the fog has started to lift. Our lives are still a mess, but for the first time in years I have hope.

Vern –
Before all this happened I said the same thing… if my wife ever cheated on me I would drop her like a hot potato. Well – along with all the pain, despair, anguish, anger… even thoughts not so long ago of suicide – I came to a realization: I Love her. I Love her with all my heart and soul, and to me that’s worth fighting for.

To paraphrase a quote I heard one time, and I don’t know who said it but it goes something like…

“True Love is hard to kill… even with a chainsaw."

Cruz

Chainsaw?

One word: LAWYER

Tell the OM's wife. Period.

None of your business? That's a first that I have read since posting here for almost two years.

Well, you know it is. She is trying to "protect" herself from her own guilt. Yes, I am sure she feels guilty. A lot of the time, the guilty runs and hide or in other words, puts up a front.

I am so sorry you are going through this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Before all this happened I said the same thing… if my wife ever cheated on me I would drop her like a hot potato. Well – along with all the pain, despair, anguish, anger… even thoughts not so long ago of suicide – I came to a realization: I Love her. I Love her with all my heart and soul, and to me that’s worth fighting for. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think we all said this. Because it is so different when the shoe is on the other foot. My friends all said the same thing. But when you still feel love in your heart and still see the person as your life time partner, you don't want to give up that easily. Some couples have a stronger marriage from an Affair. So listen to your own heart. I know the anger, the hurt, the humiliation all to well. The roller coaster of emotions are going to be really hard to deal with. Take your time and deal with your feelings head on as they come. If you don't, it will only be trouble for you ahead! TRUST ME!

Good luck to you and keep us posted please

Ali~ <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

<small>[ March 12, 2005, 09:58 PM: Message edited by: Ali88 ]</small>

BL if you have been doing the Plan A thing and the affair is still ongoing its time to up the ante.
Ask your wife to move out and go into Plan B - total non contact with her.
Seek custody of your child and document those times hse is seeing the OM - eg leving abanding the home to see the OM.

I know this is not easy but what do you do what can you do if is ongoing and plan A has not worked?

Alternatively if she will not leave, may need to consider taking your son and leaving yourself & go into Plan B - no support no contact UNTIL she wants to discuss MC with NC with OM as a starting point.

However how long have you been doing plan A?

Have you attempted to meet her EN's? Do you know them even?

it would help if we knew exactly what you have attempted BL as maybe Plan A was not done right or you missed the EN's whatever.
Its a big jump to Plan B and something of a last attempt IMHO so i think its better to go review Plan A first just to be sure.

If you plan to leave do not tell her just go and leave a plan B letter.
YOU do need to protect your child and your WW is not thinking clearly and may be exposing your child to who knows what???

You must remember this WW is NOT your wife, not the mother of your children. She will lie and manipulate. spend YOUR money on the affair, and do things that are totally out of character in the normal scheme of things.

I think you must expose to HIS wife asap even if it means a visit in person while you know hes at work. Take copies of your evidence with you to let her see it. Just be very polite and gentle just like you would like to be told such horrible news.

In the circumstances why not leave your parents out of it right now and concentrate on HER work, HER friends, HER family and HIS(OM) family, work, and friends.

DONT expect friends to take your side, a lot wont and some will support her anyway. This is more about making her uncomfortable and destablise the affair.

If you are still having SF I'd go get checked like right away!!! and cease it until she has NC and has been cleared by testing.

This all sucks doesnt it.

well off you go and start reviewing the Plan A things & see where you are in that right now.

all the best

First I would like to thank all of you for taking the time to reply to my post.

I'll give you a little history of my situation. I would like to say in advance, sorry for the lengthy post.

My WW lost her Dad in Dec. 2003 after a brief illness and seemed to handle it fairly well. A couple of months later she started telling me something needed to be done about our son's behavior, a concern she had voiced before but that I had dismissed as the normal behavior of a young boy. I dismissed it again for a short time and then finally did something about it. When we went to counseling the counselor gave us some suggestions about our son and also told us we needed to work on our marriage. In between our sessions I tried to engage the wife but she wouldn't have anything to do with me and in the next session announced that it was no longer in her heart to be with me.

This occurred in the Spring of 2004 and at the time she also said she wanted to stay together as a family for our son and there was no one else involved. It was also during this time frame that she started spending time with another man who was in the same line of work. MY WW and the OM both work from home and had all day to spend together and I voiced my concerns over and over and they were dismissed with 'It's just businesss' and 'I would never do anything like that'. WW insisted she didn't discuss our problems with the other man and then at other times she would tell me she did. I found out from other's that the OM's marriage was in trouble also and when I mentioned this to the WW she told me all about the OM's wife being crazy and that he was only staying with her to protect the chidren(they have 3 teenagers).

All through this time I was reading about these type of problems, trying to engage her in conversation, taking care of most of the household chores, taking care of all of our pets while she did nothing. If I asked what she di during the day she got defensive and would accuse me of pouting if I got upset about her spending time with the OM.

Like I said earlier this went on for months and we were going to counseling together and individually. After her last session with the counselor WW said the counselor said it was up to WW now and she didn't need to see us any more (I would find out after d-day when I went back that this was not quite the whole truth).

I know this may be a little hard to follow but I am in the fall now and WW has to go away for business reasons. I find some things that make me think she may not be going alone so I ask her if I could find a sitter for our son and go with her. She tells me it's no reflection on me but she would like to go alone. I gave her some stuff to read about relationships and forgiveness and she assures me she will read them. The morning she's leaving she tells me she knows I don't want her to go but remember it's just for business. She leaves and calls me that night and tells me she is at the motel and settling in to read the articles I gave her.

The next morning when I went to work I checked my voice mail and there were 2 message from the WW's cell. The first was just part of a song we both like and I thought maybe she was playing it for me. The second was engine noise followed by the voice of the OM telling the wife a story. I was frantic all day and waited for the WW to return like she was supposed to that evening. WW called that evening to say she was beat and going to crash and return in the morning. I confronted her with the phone calls and her response was 'Oh well, I guess that mean's you know I'm with him'. I told this story to a friend and he said he would not have believed it if it was a movie of the week.

To make along story short (I know too late) she assured me that she would not continue the affair to stay together as a family for our son. Needless to say this has not happened. I will post later to tell you guys some of the other mistakes I have made since d-day. I know the biggest is not exposing it but I guess you all know how hard it can be to take that step.

This is the worst thing I have ever been through and I am just sick and tired of dealing with it. Sometimes it seems like it would be so much easier to just throw in the towel and move on but then I look at my son and wonder what that would do to his life. Why do the people having the affair have no idea what they are doing to so many live???

Wow. So sorry to hear that. Your first big clue was when she said the OM's wife was "crazy and that he was only staying with her to protect the chidren." Sounds like someone who's more caught up than just a friend would be.

What a way to find out, esp. after all her reassurances that nothing was going on. And what a way to get caught! By a voicemail, which I figure she left by mistake or didn't realize you could hear the OM on the other end.

Very admirable to care about the effect on your son. You know and I know that's what parents are for. But SO many people don't know or care about the effects of their behavior on their kids, e.g., the OM doesn't seem to care and I'm not sure what your W is thinking.

I guess my Q is: isn't the effect of your W's behavior just as detrimental on your son? If he's too young to know, good. But if he's over, say, 8 or so, he's old enough to pick up on things. It's one thing to stay and try to work it out because you're committed. That would a GREAT (and very rare) lesson for your son about what marriage and forever mean. He could look back and say one day (again, if he's old enough) my parents had problems, but they worked it out and stayed together. How far gone is she? Does she want to just keep on having her A and staying married? Is the OM leaving his W? Does your W know what she wants?

So, have you told the OM's wife yet? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> WW shows no signs of remorse and during recent conversation of her ongoing A told me 'I don't involve you in that.' How would one even respond to this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If you don't know, then you have not understood Plan A. Read: Plan A, Doormats and Love Busters by Zorweb and Cerri on Plan A. They address this question directly. The short answer is, you tell her how you feel about her actions, whenever they make you feel good,a nd whenever they make you feel bad. But there is more detail in the posts.

Can some of you veterans tell me if these quotes are fog speak?

"I don't respect you anymore."
"The damage has been done."
"I have always treated you decently."

My wife said these things to me after complaining that I wasn't treating her nicely enough. I have been pretty quiet around her lately, trying to do my 180 stuff and she doesn't like it. I only talk about things pertaining to finances or our son and she doesn't like it. I tried for months while we were going to counseling to discuss our problems with her and the only response I ever got was I don't want to talk about it.

I have only exposed the affair to a couple of friends and my wife is not aware of this. I know this does nothing to stop the affair but I am still having a hard time deciding whether to expose or not. I have read all of the threads on whether to expose or not to expose and still can't seem to do it. I have discussed this with my counselor and she doesn't see the point of the scorched earth policy of exposure. She also mentioned that the reason affairs usually burn out is the energy involved in trying to hide them and that since I know it is alot easier for my wife because hiding it from everyone else is a lot easier.

I know I am rambling but I am just getting so sick of dealing with this bull*&%$. I went to see a lawyer yesterday and he gave me an idea, based on his experience, about how much a D would cost and that didn't make me too happy either.

Hi BL,

Re Fog Speak:
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
""Can some of you veterans tell me if these quotes are fog speak?

"I don't respect you anymore."
"The damage has been done."
"I have always treated you decently.""
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Yep. How about some others:

" I never really wanted to M you."
" I love you only as the mother (father) of my children."
" She (He) does something for me that you do not."

And, of course, the classic:

"I love you, but I am not in love with you."

Yes, this is FogSpeak. She does not mean it. She is not herself. She is in the throes of an addiction to the A. She needs help.

Re Exposure:

Why are you not doing this? Telling your friends is OK if it makes you feel better, but it's not going to get the desired result, especially if your W does not even know. Really, it's kind of vengeful. You are essentially gossiping about her, behind her back, with people who are NOT helping end the A. How is that helpful? I know, I know, the isolation, the loneliness. Believe me, all of us BS feel isolated, alone, bereft. It totally sucks. But, you are here now. You now have a host of caring, concerned folks to whom you can vent, folks who've BTDT, and, even tho` they are amateurs, have actually read the books, and can give some semblance of reasonable advice.

So, do something useful with your need to tell. Tell the OM's W. Don't you think she deserves to know?

I am in no way suggesting a D. Your child deserves an intact family. You both (BH & WW) deserve a recovered M. It will take work, lots of it. You will get support here.

Good luck and blessings
------------------------------------------------
me-50-FBS FWH-44 M- 20 yrs 3 great kids
A-2/03-5/04 DDay-5/8/04 WD/Fog-5/04-9/04 NCltr-9/3/04
In Recovery with God's help

<small>[ March 22, 2005, 12:35 PM: Message edited by: afterall ]</small>