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#52724 01/18/00 01:52 AM
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Marriage is no small thing and neither is ending one. But it's grow or die and both are hard. And it's sometimes more lonely <BR>than you ever bargain for it being. And yet, through that, you get a chance to learn to truly love yourself - a seldom <BR>encouraged ambition and maybe the hardest task Life puts in your in-basket. After all, isn't that what our spouse promised <BR>to do for us? Somebody should rewrite those vows! <P>But she is having the same problem learning to love herself as am I. But do we see this in each other? Not often. You see, we're too busy being hurt that we aren't being loved by one another. What an empty shell we both turned out to be!

#52725 01/18/00 01:59 AM
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Contemplative words... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Sorry if you're feeling down...<P>I'll be thinking of you and your words today. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Jim

#52726 01/17/00 02:04 PM
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I know after my discovery, when my H and I discussed our marriage problems, we both had the same misconceptions of each other.<P>I didn't think you loved me<BR>I didn't feel you were attracted to me<BR>I didn't think you enjoyed sex<P>Pretty much down the list. We were both seraching for the things we weren't giving to each other.

#52727 01/17/00 02:10 PM
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Dear Essyboo,<P>Thanks for your reply! I thought my post was about the necessity of learning to love yourself but I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder.

#52728 01/17/00 02:18 PM
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Murray,<P>thanks for your post. I've been feeling down the past couple days, and I keep losing sight of the one thing that is good out of all this...I love myself! I am so glad I'm dealing with our problems instead of thinking the usual "it's just me overreacting"<BR>Through counseling, reading this board and a lot of soul searching, I realize that I love myself enough to try and make my marriage the best possible relationship for myself and for my spouse. How much did I love myself before when I kept avoiding rather than facing the issues?<BR>Thank you for reminding me that while I love my H, I love me too, and if I'm not happy, I need to fix that before anyone else can be happy!<BR>

#52729 01/17/00 02:35 PM
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Dear Mschif,<P>I love what you said. It's amazing how much of a difference it makes when I remember that my wife is not responsible for my happiness; I am. But, it's even more amazing how much happier she makes me feel when she doesn't feel pressured to make me happy!

#52730 01/17/00 02:50 PM
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Dear Murray:<P>It is about loving yourself. We were both being selfish looking to the other to make us feel worthwhile. Since we were both taking neither was giving.<P>We were actually saying<P>I must not be worth loving because he/she doesn't love me, therefore I don't love him/her.<P>I must not be attractive since he/she isn't attracted to me so I don't feel attracted to him/her.<P>Something must be wrong because he/she doesn't enjoy sex, I'm worry about that so much that I don't enjoy it either and don't work to make sure he/she enjoys it.<P>It is so strange how turning solely to your spouse for your needs allows you to turn to yourself for your needs.

#52731 01/17/00 03:48 PM
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Dear Essyboo,<P>We are either talking past each other or saying the same thing in very different ways. I choose to see it as the latter as opposed to the former. Language can really get in the way sometimes. Perhaps the following says it best.<P>"If I don't take care of myself, who will? If I don't take care of others, who am I?"<P>I would give the author credit if I knew who it was. Nevertheless, there's a lot of truth in there.

#52732 01/17/00 04:09 PM
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You definitely must care for yourself. This is where Harley's "Complete Honesty" kicks in. If your spouses isn't giving you something you need you must let them know. If your spouse is degrading you you must not tolerate it, but must handle it in a loving way. You must also protect your spouse from these same hurts through your actions toward her.<P>It is not up to your spouse to be your self esteem, but they can help build it, they can also destroy it and that is much easier to do.<P>Confidence comes with contentment and personal acceptance and confidence is attractive. Feeling attractive builds confidence and provides personal acceptence and provides contentment. These concepts don't just apply to physical attraction. The same concept could apply toward confidence in your abilities.<P>Being accepted by your spouse for who and what you are is probably the most wonderful feeling there is. If you can truly accept your spouse and help her build confidence in herself and she does this in return you will find happiness in each other.<P>I found this very confusing when people started telling me I need to take care of myself, yet Harley's books were saying that all emotional needs must be met by your spouse. My H's main lovebuster was disrespectful judgement and "verbal abuse", not out of anger, just out of a superiority comlex.<P>I was able to ask him to stop and he has stopped, but first I had to convince myself that I wasn't inferior just because he said I was. Before I came to that realization I thought I deserved this belittling and he didn't even realize he was doing it because I didn't stand up for myself.<P>I always felt ugly, because I based it solely on what I perceived my H's opinion was. I had to turn to others reassurance in order to build my confidence in that area. My H was not very complimentary in the past, but he said he didn't feel I found him attractive. I didn't compliment him because I felt bad about myself. Now we compliment each other and I truly believe I am an attractive woman. <P>The looking for outside assurances is only necessary if you aren't getting those assurances from your spouse. If you provide the assurances they need they will be more willing to provide them for you.<P>Since your marriage has had a severe blow, it may be necessary to concentrate on your needs for a while, but also concentrate on getting to the point where you share this duty with your spouse and then eventually they provide what you need to continue to accept yourself.<P>Self confidence is not an emotional need, but rather it is the outcome of feeling comfortable with who you are and that can be accomplished by having your emotional needs satisfied by a loving spouse.

#52733 01/17/00 04:21 PM
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You equate caring for yourself with Harley's principle of complete honesty, do you? What if you were not married? How would you care for yourself then? What I am talking about is learning to love yourself no matter what kind of a response you get from your spouse or even if have no spouse at all. It is this that gives us the strength to love. Our spouses also need to find this for themselves; we can not give it to them other than by modeling it. IMO, any view of marriage that has within it an expectation of a quid pro quo is unhealthy. <p>[This message has been edited by Murray (edited January 17, 2000).]

#52734 01/17/00 04:48 PM
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I think the Lord designed us in a way that we need the help of others to love ourselves.<P>I feel the inability to love ourselves develops through not getting what we need from others, our family, friends and spouse.<P>We can ask the Lord to help us and we can work on our own personal attitude (I feel there is a lot to be said in that area). <P>Counselling has helped me a lot in determining why I have always been so hard on myself. Some people expect self perfection and have a lot of trouble getting over past hurts and that was a major problem I had. I felt I didn't get the approval of my parents, I didn't live up to the precedents set by my older sister, I was betrayed by some friends when I was young. I have had to learn that those things do not make me who I am. I make me who I am.<P>We all make a choice with each experience in our life to either be positively or negatively affected by it. As many people are ruined by success as benefit from failure. Some of it is nature and some of it is learned response.<P>When my H degraded me, I could have told myself that he had a problem, instead I told myself I did.<P>There are so many factors involved here.<P>I agree that I cannot rely on my H to be my self-esteem. I relied upon my H to determine who I became and that was a big mistake on my part, but I should be able to rely upon my H to help me feel good about myself. That is a healthy marriage. In an unhealthy marriage you must rely more on youself, but quite often we turn to someone else, but so often that is what causes an affair in he first place.<P>I am in no way saying that you don't need to work on yourself, but there is so much you can do to help your spouse too which will benefit both of you, especially if your spouse is helping you in return.

#52735 01/17/00 06:36 PM
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Dear Essyboo,<P>At first I thought you were agreeing with me and now I am not sure. In any case, it seems both you and your marriage are becoming healthier and that is all to the good!<p>[This message has been edited by Murray (edited January 17, 2000).]

#52736 01/17/00 10:00 PM
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My H and I discussed this at dinner.<P>One difference is we are comparing a healthy marriage, or a theoretically perfect marriage to one that is not.<P>I'm not saying my marriage is perfect, far from, but we are striving for that.<P>Another point is that we are obligated to satisfy our spouses primary needs. My H pointed out that doesn't mean we must rely on our spouse to satisfy all of our needs, just our primary ones.<P>The point I was trying to make was that in a strong healthy marriage where two people truly care for each other more than themselves they will strive to make that person feel good about themselves. When you feel passionate love for someone doesn't that person make you feel good about yourself. That can continue on into marriage instead of your spouse destroying your self esteem like happened to me in my marriage.<P>Counselling has helped me a lot with my self esteem. She has taught me that no one determines my self esteem or self worth. I had relied on my husband to do that for me and he didn't, instead he tore it down.<P>I had to learn to not let his belittling and lack of consideration make me feel unworthy, but to realize I just wasn't getting what I deserved. She also stressed the importance of telling him this so that he could change. The first change had to come from inside me, but I would not have succeeded in becoming more confident as easily or quickly if my H hadn't stopped tearing me down.<P>The strenght must come from within yourself, but a spouse can do so much determine how strong you have to be.

#52737 01/18/00 03:16 PM
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Hey Murray,<P>I'm curious if we are anywhere close now.<P>This topic has me fascinated. I have had a lot of confusion in the past how to take care of myself and not feel selfish. I've also had a lot of trouble with codependency and have a great longing for someone to completely take care of me.<P>

#52738 01/18/00 11:48 PM
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Dear Essyboo,<P>The best answer I can give you is this. Successful couples care for each other without keeping score as to who does what for whom. <P>I'm not sure whether this helps you. We are using a different book to try to straighten our marriage out. It is "Seven Principles For Making Marriage Work" by Dr. John Gottman. I could not recommend it more highly.<P>The bottom line premise is that succesful couples have a deep and abiding friendship and an intimate and up to date knowledge of each other's thoughts and feelings, likes and dislikes, hopes and dreams. They deeply honor and respect each other. They make 4 to 5 times more statements of admiration than they do of complaint. They can disagree and yet not lose any of the positive sentiment.<P>Again, the thing that stands out in my mind and also that applies to your question is the idea that both care for and about each other without keeping score. That is where we are trying to go and I honestly believe this is the best prescription for marital happiness and success.<P>Hope this helps!


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