We are working together right now and doing real good. Things have gone very smoothely for a week or so. <P>We have have stuck POJA and complete honesty. We have been able to discuss annoying behavior with hurt feelins and tempers flying.<P>I wish my post ended right there.<P>At the end of the month my H is supposed to go on a 5 day business trip. This happens every year. Last year I went with him and had a blast. This is a firefighting school and fighting fires is his passion. He looks forward to it all year. The OW also has to go so we made the decision that I would always go with him. The people are divided up into 5 trips so it was hit or miss whether she would end up going at the same time.<P>Now the OW has quit and moved away (Thank God!!), but we still want to go together because we still feel that is best for our marriage and it is so much fun. He takes great joy that I can share this interest with him and I think it makes him feel that I appreciate his talent and bravery, which I very much do.<P>His mother kept the kids last year, but this year she cannot due to some Probate matters and an aging mother.<P>My mother can't keep the children either, she is scheduled to have major surgery that does not need to be put off any longer.<P>My H has told me that he will just quit the Fire Brigade which would mean he didn't have to go on the trip rather than to go without me.<P>This was very touching, and I was greatly encouraged by his willingness to sacrifice for our marriage, but I don't think he is truly POJA on it.<P>I don't know if I should encourage him to go on by himself, or let him quit the fire team.<BR>

Just a personal opinion...<P>If you absoultely can't get anyone to watch the kids...<P>Let him go alone...<P>It would be an incredible show of trust on your part...<P>Of course... have calls between you each day... unscheduled ones too... many each day!<P>Jim

If OW is not going to be there and you do not believe your H is vunerable to an affair at this point in your marriage, I would encourage him to go.<P>1. He has a passion for this and you said you don't want to take it away.<P>2. It may be good for you to exercise your trust and good for your H to feel it.<P>Just my opinion. If you don't think you could control your emotions and you'd lovebust upon his return, then don't do it.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Hi EssyBoo!<BR>One thing that I am not clear on....now that OW is out of the picture, how do YOU feel about H going away without you? If it is simply a case of wanting to go away together (and not concern about the "what if's" of the trip were he to go without you), then you could postpone the together trip for a more convenient time. If however, you would be uncomfortable with his going on his own, how DO you meet POJA? I am new to all of this and while I understand the reasons behind all of the "how to's", I fail to understand how to get from A to Z sometimes. I will keep up on this post for my knowledge as much as for your closure. Right now I must venture off into -48 oC (with the wind chill) to pick up my D for some x-rays. Will follow up later.<BR>Cheers!

I don't feel he would be unfaithful to me while he was there. I do fear that the 5 days of him not being with me would set me back.<P>I tend to dwell on my resentment and anger when we are apart, even if it is during the work day, by the end of the day my optimism and focus is harder to achieve. He has learned this and takes special care to greet me with great tenderness. He calls me every day from work and calls me from his cell phone when he leaves the plant. After 5 days I may end up reverting back to hysterics even if he calls everyday.<P>I'm not sure what would be POJA on this. He would make arrangements to not go and would not hold it against me, but this is probably his last year to go due to an impending promotion so I know he really wants to. <P>I would be okay with him leaving, but honestly want him not to.<P>The separation from the extended family (3 hour drive) is an old wound, a past "Selfish Demand" by him or more closely, a situation I agreed to years back when I honestly didn't want to.<P>I have had a lot of resentment in the past that we live so far away and don't have the benefit of help with the children. My H is probably concerned about that being rekindled as well.<P>I'm not feeling resentment about where we live as much as resentment toward "fate". I have never had "good timing". During every major crisis in our life and everytime I ask my mom to help, it is never a good time. Many times it is a valid excuse like this time, but it still makes me feel alienated from my Mom as well. Of course neither she nor my MIL know about his affair and what we are going through. If they did they probably would do something, but we chose not to tell any family. (It was a good decision)<P>There is also the dissappointment I will feel at him "getting" to go and me "having" to stay behind and take care of the kids. I really want to go. I am fascinated with watching fires and even got to suit up and go into a fire last year.<P>

Hey EB - Maybe I am a little more selfish than some and those feelings will likely come out here. I also think that you and I share MANY common factors in our relationships (mothers/MIL's, esteem, H's desires.......and so on). If what I interpret from your post (and my interpretations are often warped so forgive me) is accurate, you would love for H to walk in the door and take the POJA negociation away from you and announce that he would rather stay home and hang out with you ......and come across sincerely.....(?)<P>Now, that isn't likely to happen so we are back to POJA.<P>"I do fear that the 5 days of him not being with me would set me back." - you are not convincing me that this meets your EA.<P>"I would be okay with him leaving, but honestly want him not to" - even less.....<P>"There is also the dissappointment I will feel at him "getting" to go and me "having" to stay behind and take care of the kids" -oh oh, the "D" word. This is absolutely does not meet POJA. <P>"This was very touching, and I was greatly encouraged by his willingness to sacrifice for our marriage, but I don't think he is truly POJA on it" - to what extent have you discussed how he would feel to not go?<P>OK then, how can Essyboo and H come up with something that falls within the guidelines of POJA?<P>Are you and H being so careful to not LB and be such good "GIVERS" that you are not willing to sit and fully discuss this? ..... and ask the questions, brainstorm, come up with happy alternatives?<P>I am uncertain of your financial situation. I understand that this particular trip is a blast however, it is a given that you cannot both go together, unless you take the kids (which also takes much of the blast factor out....). If it is time away together that you crave, can you set up a date verrrrry soon afterwards to go away together? This may help you unfocus from the negatives that would arise if he goes without you (?) <P>One thing is for certain, if he does go and you have not got your head nodding in enthusiastic agreement, you will feel resentment. While the deposit you make by giving him trust to go without you will seem like taking two steps forward, it may also be like taking 5 steps back.<P>Maybe I am talking in circles. What I mean to say is this - you have a hard time right now with separation from H during short periods of time and dwell on resentment and anger. If you and H proceed with him going, you are sacrificing some of the huge gains that you have made up until now - UNLESS, you can both come to a total understanding on your motivations and feelings about what may happen while he is away (re. your feelings/resentments) and what (if anything) he/you can do to overcome these negatives.<P>Not sure if the above makes any sense at all but I have been exactly where you are. You want what he wants for HIM without having to sacrifice YOU in the process. <P>Where does the security of having him with you and not away for 5 days fall on your EN's? (I suspect quite high, especially at this time of "rebuilding"). Where does the EN of his going fall with him? (Maybe not quite so high as usual at this time of "rebuilding") Something to think about.<BR>Cheers! Let me know how it goes, what conclusion you reach and how you reach it.<P>"To Thine Own Self Be True"<P>Cheers!<BR>Lisa

I have been doing a lot of brainstorming. This has been a terribly busy part of his revolving work rotation. He works 12 hour shift work. <P>There are a two more options that we have come up with. He could drive 1.5 hours back home every evening, or we could ask our Preacher and his wife to keep our older boys and then packing off our dog and preschool daughter to family in San Antonio. (Our preacher knows of our situation, the only person in our congregation that knows, it would probably mean telling his wife, but we are okay with that). This option came up recently, but brings up another POJA situation. I am very uncomfortable asking others to care for my children. I don't know why. I don't get upset when asked to babysit, especially for money, but feel bad asking someone else to babysit, even for money. My H is equally uncomfortable especially in light of the underlying reasons. He will go to the ends of the earth for anyone, but will never ask anyone for help. I have seen him move all of our belongings with nothing but a dolly rather than ask his friends to help. He has helped nearly all of his friends move in the past. He looks like he should be moving furniture, big and powerful.<P>If we chose to have our preacher keep the kids, then we have to go through the process all over again to see who does the asking.<P>I feel that the primary emotion I am feeling about him going alone is jealousy that I can't go too, not fear that he will misbehave. He, however, has expressed the frustration of being away from me for 5 days. (He is very needy, but I consider myself lucky becaus of that ).<P>POJA is a wonderful theory, but it isn't always the most feasible. Sometimes there is no choice but for someone to come up holding the short end of the stick.

Sometimes when we stretch and really give of ourselves, it may look like we are on the short end of the stick, but we may gain far more than we think. This may be in personal growth or even the warm feeling of seeing someone else happy through our efforts.<P>Although we should certainly seek a win/win solution, if we take every issue so we are equally happy, I think we will miss out on some good stuff in giving and recieving.<P>If you look at the overall pattern of your marriage in its entirety, and it is close to even, then we all can afford to come up a little short on the stick every so often.<P><P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

If I told my H to go without me he would know that I wasn't doing what I want to do. POJA would be out the window..<BR> <BR>I want to go. I really want to go. I'm sure this makes him feel good, but what else will it do for him when he is in motel room all by himself and hopefull wishing I were with him.<P>POJA is a fine line. I feel that many times there is no agreement. If you can't agree then you do nothing. Well nothing can just as easily be a lovebuster.

Hey Jessica (same name as my D's),<BR>Sounds like you and H are coming up with some viable options. While none of them are "easy", in the end, if they meet with both of your agreement, you will come out win-win. I understand your discomfort with not wanting to ask for anything of anyone. You are probably the first person friends and neighbors call on and the last to take advantage of any request to "return" these favours (I am on your side of the page on this one). <P>The important thing is that you and H are looking at your options and trying to make a decision that will keep everyone happy.<P>FHL is right. Sometimes a small sacrifice is as much a deposit into H's bank as into your own. Key is determining your fine line of comfort - where a sacrifice is just that, a deposit to you and not a w/d. <P>Let me know what you come up with and how it all turns out in the end.<P>Cheers!<BR>Lisa

I like Lisa M's clarification of what I wrote about a sacrifice. That's exactly what I meant...and sometimes is a fine line.<P>Essyboo, you are really thinking this out well and I know you have legitimate concerns. The next paragraph is understanding the intent of POJA...not a commentary on your situation.<P>If we determine it is our own negative emotions, like jealously or selfishness, that are keeping us from being enthusiastic about what we are trying to resolve, shouldn't we work on dispelling our negative emotions instead of working them into POJA?<P>Are we giving legitimacy to the negative rather than challenging ourselves to grow?<P>Something interesting to think about, anyway.<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Would it work to have him drive home one or two evenings of the 5 days?<P>------------------<BR>Faith, Hope, Love Remain,<BR>but the greatest of these is Love.<BR>1 Corinthians 13:13

Dear Essyboo,<BR>I'm praying for you I hope you find someone who can watch the kids without your having to worry. Hang in there!

Still no decisions. <P>I think my H is just hoping they release the next promotion list (if he is promoted he will no longer be on the Fire Team), it is supposed to be released in the next few weeks, but won't start until April. I think he is just hoping that he made the list and management will tell him he can't go to the Fire School because of the cost. That would be the easiest solution to all of this, letting someone else make the decision for us.<P>It is really kind of silly how we are basically hung up on who is going to "get" to sacrifice this time instead of who "has" to.<P>I just keep telling myself that this decision is not going to have any lasting implications.