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Joined: Feb 1999
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Did he cheat? Was it more than emotional? Why would he lie about it?<P>I took this section and copied it from another post of mine. I am re-posting it here because this is what I really need advice about (That's a candy-coated way of admitting that I am obsessing on this issue at the moment). Please, if you don’t know my entire story, please know it is FAR more complicated than this post shows. Nevertheless, I need help looking objectively at this situation. I need to know how much this possible affair (and at the very least emotional affair) needs my attention and energy. I don’t know if I can trust my H is telling me the truth. I don’t know how to weigh all of this. <P>Do I think he had an affair with OW2? <BR>Yes, I do. I really want to believe that he didn’t, though. I want to believe he is telling me the truth and that it was just emotional. I don’t want to deal with ANOTHER affair in our marriage. I’m just sick of this issue. I want to trust him. I want to have faith in him. I hope he didn’t have a physical affair. Yet, I think he did. <P>Looking objectively at this situation, I see nothing but red, hot, flaming arrows pointing to an affair. Here are what I see as the signs (this is all stuff he has admitted to, BTW):<BR>H’s co-worker informed me (through her sister) that H and LadyD were known (or at the very least highly suspect), by the rest of the office, to be having an affair.<BR>A previous affair with OW1<BR>A close friendship with LadyD, the OW2 (a very attractive woman who is also disgruntled in her own marriage)<BR>A lot of time (10hrs a day) spent alone together at work and after hours<BR>A discussion in which H and OW2 said, “ I bet everyone in the office thinks we are having an affair.”<BR>H stated he was not surprised that his co-workers suspected an affair.<BR>Conscious effort on their part to talk, hug, and spend time together when ever they were in the office together.<BR>Just the two of them working in an off-site office (for a year, but they’ve both since been promoted in different areas of the company)<BR>After hours drinks<BR>Mutually expressed attraction and desire<BR>3 conferences which they both attended, had hotel rooms, dirty danced, and got very drunk<BR>And H’s claim that he took a job relocation to be away from a situation that was likely to explode with OW2. <BR>I’ve long since suspected their friendship was more than platonic, and have even asked H about it in the past.<P>Couple all of that with:<BR>For about 2 years I didn’t love H and therefore didn’t meet his needs very well. <BR>I was away having an affair, (which began 1 year after OW2 entered the picture)<BR>I had a child and was very occupied with him.<BR>The unspeakable pain and devastation when I told H of my affair and the baby. <BR>In my mind that adds up to a very high probability of infidelity. <P>What really bothers me is that this is the SECOND time that I have “found out” about another woman. In both cases, I suspected and confronted. The first time I basically caught him. The second time someone made information known to me that clearly pined him as doing something “wrong” with LadyD. Neither time involved a “confession” on his part. Both times he got caught. That fact does little to paint him as a person who feels the need to confess or tell the truth unless really pushed.<BR>H claims nothing physical ever happened.<P>I guess you could say (and some have) that he has no reason to lie. After all I have done (affair of my own and baby by OM), nothing could make H look THAT bad. After I’ve been honest, after H decided to stay with me despite my own affair and baby, he must love me, right. Well, for some reason, I’m just not convinced. Maybe I’m being pessimistic. Maybe I’m just afraid to trust. I’m not sure, but I do know this, the way I see it, the real question is . . . .why would he tell the truth? He has absolutely nothing to gain by telling the truth.<P>So, why would he lie? What reason does he have to NOT tell me the truth?<BR>Well, I think he would lie because (I’m speculating on his thinking here)<BR>1) I believe that H fears I’d leave him if he admitted to an affair. Better to lie than to have me leave him. I don’t believe that all affairs are entered into with the intention of leaving the spouse. I also don’t believe that they are necessarily maintained or that they evolve with that desire. I believe, if H had an affair with LadyD, that it was not an exit affair. I do NOT think he wants a divorce. I don’t think he wants to leave me. I don’t think he wants me to leave him. I DO think he needed someone and something. I felt that way about his first affair. I DO NOT think he wants out of the marriage; I DO think he wants to have something more, and in this case, that was an affair. <BR>2) I also believe he still wants to have OW2 in his life. If he admitted to a physical affair, he knows I’d demand that he never sees or speak to her again. If there was nothing physical, I believe he thinks it is seen as “no big deal.” <BR>3) Telling the truth (if he did have the physical affair) would only make matters worse! Our marriage is hanging from such a thin thread right now, and if he admits to the affair then that is going to make matters for us WAY worse! He is totally nonconfrontational! He will do anything to avoid causing problems, and that includes lie. I think he might want to get through my affair first and then admit to his own. <BR>4) If he admits to a physical affair, then he is as “guilty” as I am. He might feel as if he’d have to give up being angry at me because he did the same thing! (I don’t agree, BTW) <BR>5) If he admitted a physical affair, and I left him, he would loose too much! (his marriage, his child, his wife, his pride). From the outside, he would be as much the “bad guy” as I am. <BR>6) Bottom line is this . . .I think it is worth it to him to lie (and keep the illusion of a good life), than it is to tell the truth and risk loosing it all. <P>Can someone please help me navigate this thinking? Am I nuts (okay, I know I am, but am I off the edge here with my train of though? Should I be fearing the worst or having faith and trust in H? Aside from all of that, how do I know if he cheated on me if he does not admit it?<BR> <BR>Thanks for being there for me!<BR>Love to you all!<BR>FC <P>

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fc:<P>Focus on the future. Focus on the future. Focus on the future.<P>Work on making your marriage better---following the 4 Rules and "affair-proofing" your marriage. Have your husband work along with you---even though he's been dragging his feet, you got him to counseling. Keep moving forward. Work with him. If you're successful, he won't have a reason or the time to have an affair. You're also very well aware of HOW he behaves when he is having an affair---that will be enough of a tip for you in the future. <P>You're obsessing in the past---that's not going to help you or your marriage very much at this point. If your counselor is also helping you to "dig" in the past, I'd suggest a new one. In fact, I know this guy who does counseling over the phone... [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>And to RMA: I AM NOT Steve Harley. He'll vouch for that.

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FC,<P>I posted to you on your other thread. Again K gives you good advice. I will repeat part of what I said to you on the other post.<P>Use what you know to help your marriage not add fuel. For example, you listed a variety of reasons that your H would have benefited from not telling you the truth after your counseling session. They are all valid as far as it goes. However, if your H wanted revenge for your affair this would be great opportunity for it. If your H was "in love" with this OW he would/could have left upon disclosure of your affair and that the baby was OM's. If it was an affair would your H have changed offices. It goes on.<P>More importantly why are you obsessing about it when by your own admission you are still in withdrawl from OM? Is this a defense mechanism? Please reevaluate. But more importantly please consider it as valuable information that can help you build a better marriage. You have stated that you are only in the marriage because of your religious beliefs. That my be true but I also think you love your H. However, if it is only the first reason, then why not have a good marriage because of your religious beliefs [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]. You can. Learn about yourself and learn why your H has done what he has done. It is to late to assess blame here. This story is far too complex for a simple assignment of blame.<P>Don't obsess about this new information from counseling but learn from it. If you make it a large issue, then other things that need to be addressed in counseling will not be addressed. You want your H talking with you, not about you to someone else. If you can take this information process it in a non threatening way, your H will open up and you will get the communciations that you have always wanted with him. <P>You don't always have to be right you know [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]. You don't even have to be right or wrong, you can simply take the information as the beginnings of your communications and the passing of useful information between the two of you. It does not have to be judged: just accepted. If you learn to do that your H will communicate with you.<P>Hope this helps.<P>God Bless You and Your Family<P>JL<P>

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FC, <P>If he did have an affair with LadyD, would you leave him?<P>You gave several reasons as to why he shouldn't tell you - all of which seem to focus on you leaving him. Perhaps if he KNEW you wouldn't leave him, then the truth would come out (you may already have the truth - who knows). <P>FC, sure the flaming arrows point in the direction of an affair. Sure he has reason to as you stated. But, the fact is he is with you and you are with him. Neither of you have left the other. Both of you have had every reason to. yet here you are. You and your H have been through so much crap together I can't help but think that there has to be love for one another buried beneath the rubble.<P>Knowing what you know now, take your past (all the hurt and pain from both sides of your marriage), grab a shovel, hike deep into the forest bury it in the deepest hole you can dig. And when you're done, bury the shovel too. <P>I think when the past gets buried, you can start to rediscover what it is you two love about one another. It's in there FC, you just have to start looking for it. <P>SHA<P>------------------<BR>There is only one happiness in life, to love and be loved.

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FC,<BR>Based on your current feelings, one might think you CARED that he may have been with someone else. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>From a different angle: How lucky you are.<P>Your new knowledge just may have stirred some juices within you that YOU WERE CONVINCED WERE DEAD FOR A LONG TIME. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>Take this as the "gift horse" it was.<P>If there was something....who cares at this point because he clearly has chosen you. You know what you could do right now....to get yourself on track. (and him and YOUR FAMILY)<P>If there wasn't anything....well good.<P>My feeling, based on your posts, says he probably had an emotional affair. That also may explain his actions, which up till now, you described as "less than passionate".<P>FC, I see no other option, than for you to focus yourself right into Plan A. <P>Do you really want to spend your entire life thinking about this? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] Said only in the spirit of helping you OFF the fence. <P>-Tina <P><BR>

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So, I guess it's no big deal and I ought to just forget about OW2 and move on. After all, the playing ground is level now. His 2 affairs = my one and the baby?<P>It just feels a bit like denial. It also feels like I ought to just "suck it up." I mean, I guess I deserved it, right? I guess I should feel lucky that H, a two-time cheater, wants me - a pathetic cheater who made the ultimate mistake (baby by OM). Maybe we deserve each other. Maybe H is right when he says I have no right to be upset over his OW2 because I had an affair too. <BR>I think I'm mad.<BR>I think I'm confused.<BR>I think I feel like I'm being told I am unentitled to be upset over this.<BR>I think I'm supposed to be Pollyannaish and simply "look on the bright side." <BR>The truth is, dear friends (and I mean that), that I'm really sad and having a terribly difficult time seeing said "bright side". <BR>Right now, all I can feel is betrayal and INFIDELITY AGAIN!<BR>

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FC: People handle affairs differently. You said the field is level...maybe, maybe not. When my W had her first affair, I was angry but not ready to quit, when I had an affair, she was hurt, but not ready to quit, when she had her second affair I was devestated because she was ready to quit.<P>I guess it's really up to you how you handle your part in this. You can't do anything about his part, unless you count making changes to one's self that inspires or causes others to change. Then I guess you can. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] As far as your part goes, ask yourself (K) what do you want for the future? If whatever it is includes your H, then you've got to 'let go' and work on what is not what was.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.<P><BR><p>[This message has been edited by Paul Moyers (edited January 18, 2000).]

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FC<BR>I still want an answer to my question because that drives what you do? Why does it bother you that he may have emotionally connected to someone else ? <P>You absolutely can be mad, angry, upset and everything else....so go on and feel those things....then, figure out whether you want to be with this person and start ACTING! <P>If you won't let him connect to you...then you shouldn't be with him. That frees both of you up to pursue future solid relationships.<P>and FC, forgive yourself and forgive him ! Reading your posts makes me think you don't think highly enough of yourself. <P> You continue to say bad things about yourself when that is probably the farthest thing from the truth. I remember the huge steps and major accountability you accepted on behalf of your actions. <P>As my husband says to me now, "you're a keeper".<P>Good luck - Tina<p>[This message has been edited by TFloyd (edited January 18, 2000).]

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fc:<P>I don't think that anyone here wants you to be in denial.<P>I think that you have every right to be upset. Mad. Confused. I know that I was when I dealt with my wife's affair. BUT---even through all those emotions, you should be able to deal with it honestly and productively, and do what YOU can to bring the two of you closer together.<P>As for looking on the "bright side"---what the heck is wrong with that??? It's just one of those effective coping mechanisms that people use. If you're blessed with it---use it. If not, try to incorporate it into your way of thinking about this mess. When you realize the good that comes out of this, you will be better off. You will have healed. You will have forgiven (both yourself and your husband).<P>One other thing:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Maybe H is right when he says I have no right to be upset over his OW2 because I had an affair too. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>My best answer for that comment is that you have the right to any feelings that you have. And that the only feelings you WANT to have for your husband are love and respect (fill in your favorite)---and that his action (or behavior) isn't helping you feel that way.

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Tina,<BR>I do not hold the affair he had with OW2 over him DURING the time that I was also being unfaithful. How could I?<P>I do resent that he was involved with her before I met OM. I loved H then. I resent him for that because we were supposed to be in recovery from OW1. I resent him because I was doing all I could to hold on to my love for him, and when I finally gave up I met OM. The thing is, I feel tricked. I feel like I was fighting for something while he was F*(&)ng something else! I was doing all the right things, loving him, suggesting ways to improve our marriage, believing and trusting him, making love to him, "being there" or at least trying to, and I thought all was okay. He never let me know there were problems from his end. He just said he didn't love me, but he didn't offer any more. I asked what I could do and he said, "nothing." <P>It was about a month later (and about 6 months into his OW2 thing) that I met OM.<P>Then, after I left OM and confessed all to H, I thought we were going to work things out. He "said" he loved me and wanted to stay married. If that was true, why was he still involved with OW2? why did he refuse counseling? Why did he ignore me? Why, if he was so committed to "taking me back and loving" me, was he running around with OW2?<P>That is what makes me so angry. I thought I was doing the right things. He led me to believe he wanted me and S, but really he was out with OW2. Yes, we are still together, after all this, but it is a pretty crappy quality of "together." <P>Maybe he does love me. Maybe I do love him, and that is why we both care about the other's affair. But in a real marriage, there has to be more than love. There must also be trust and fidelity. His OW2 relationship (which for all I know is still happening) really just drove a truck through the last year worth of work I've been doing on myself and my marriage.<P>I’ve got to leave for work now, so the rest of the replies will have to wait till tomorrow.<P>This sucks!<BR>

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As for finding the bright side . . .Lets be real here. I just found out 5 days ago that my H had a 3-year emotional affair (at the very least). His second infidelity at that! I'm trying to cope with the blow! I need some time before I can get to that bright side!

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fc:<P>I hear you---but I'm still going to point out the path for you. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>God bless.<BR>

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FC,<BR>I don't mean to anger you with my questions but it seems that there has been a fire ignited in your spirit. <P>You are right about Love, alone, not being enough...but I really do sense that YES, you want to be the person he is choosing to spend his life with and not simply a wife by default. (He can't connect to me....but he can connect to someone else...when I'm trying...) Really FC, I understand and hear you, but just agreeing with how you feel does a disservice to you. <P>Let's be realistic, many success stories here smeak of buried feelings and lots of mis-trust . You can overcome those obstacles with a plan that you stick to. Yeah, eventually, he will need to be a part of it...but it's not time to worry about that now. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>and FC, this is old news....new awareness. I still feel like it helps you understand rather than giving you a renewed sense of hopelessness. As someone said, you know the feelings of being connected to someone else.<P>So he felt it, so he felt it twice....and I know you are angry...but still an opportunity for you to turn the three of you into the family you desire.<P><BR>-Tina [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>


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