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Totally irrelevant to the thread but just wanted to say how wonderful is was to read the CORRECT use of a term for once, ie. 'I COULDN'T care less', instead of 'I COULD care less.' This is one of those intensely irritating Americanisms based on ignorance which have crept in of late - the other REALLY annoying one being the use of 'alternate' for 'alternative', ie, 'I had no alternate but to get divorced.'

How can people think, 'I could care less' is right? This would be like saying, 'I could give a damn', and is utterly wrong. But then we live in a world where knowledge of punctuation, spelling, grammar and the meaning of words is becoming increasingly rare.

needsfixing,

The syntax does suggests that these expressions should be opposites, but the older form, is still rather colloquial, is it not? In other words, both expressions are quite 'slangy' so what difference does it make?

Personally, I think it is actually a very interesting linguistic development.

In my neck of the woods (New England) the change in the term seemed to take place some time in the 1960's--in spoken language and as a change in 'stress pattern'

...like when you say, "I should be so lucky" or "Tell me about it"

It may be true that 'I could care less' has some social class stigma attached when it is put into writing but only because it is hard to be sarcastic in writing, it loses its force when put on paper and just ends up looking stupid.

But in a forum, people tend want to come across like they are 'speaking' rather than writing in a formal way. Their intent is to communicate meaning—at least to those who really could care less. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />


Me: 56
H: 61
DD: 13 and hormonal
DS: 20

Oldest son died 1994 @ age 8

Happily married 30+ years
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If your guy watching porn really bugs you, then control what you can control, YOU and make sure you wear him out from all the good sex you are giving him.

You can make sure he is so satisfied and tired from being with you that he won't have the time or energy for porn.

Why does a guy look at porn?

Because he has free time and wants a sexual release.

Hmmm, why isn't his wife taking care of that?

Is she too busy with the kids?

Is one of the kids sleeping in the bed with mom and dad?

Ultimately men make the choice, so you cannot blame the woman for the choice to look at porn. But much like affairs, you can place the blame on them for creating the conditions that cause a man to look elsewhere for his sexual satisfaction.

T

I'm sorry, I don't agree with that. I've been in situations where I've seen my woman trying to wear me out to make sure that I wouldn't be interested in porn and it was very transparent what she was trying to do. It felt manipulative and not as much fun. It felt like she had an alterior motive for sex and it made me feel that much more caged.

Porn is more like an on and off switch. When you've decided and suceeded that it needs to stay off, lack of sex has little to do with porn. Getting off, that's a whole nother story. But porn, I think is more of a choice than a natural alternative resulting from lack of sex.

I say this because I think women will be disappointed if they try to wear their guys out and they still find out he's viewing porn.

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I agree, I get that answer about porn-all men do it, and that's a lousy justification of hurting someone's feelings. It's rude to screw up a relationship to justify porn.

Porn is not morally right. But many men do view it and many men have repeatedly attempted to explain their mind-set and motivation for viewing it. Yet, the answer from women like you is always the same-- one of unwillingness to believe what guys are saying-- chalking it up as a justification. I wish women would say "that may be how guys are wired but they need to overcome it" or "I believe they think that way but as a woman it's just too hard to understand that difference and so I still feel insecure". That would at least acknowlege that you believe the guys are telling the truth but this is how you feel in return. Rather many times, the standard answer is "*huff* excuses excuses". And that is not a very understanding stance to take.

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Why does a guy need to look at porn....when he has a loving wife/lover/constant companion, and who both fulfill each overs needs. Thats not say we don't have differences as individuals. We put some time and hard work into our marriage and we both communicate openly with each other,
which only strengthens our spiritual, mental, emotionl
and physical needs. God also big part to play in it..
Porn no...Marriage yessssssss.........

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Why does a guy need to look at porn....

Are you trying to understand? Or is this a rhetorical question, and you've already made up your mind that a guy should not look at porn?


Me: 50. W: 50. Happily married since 1993. 3 kids.
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some of the answers I saw on this thread really sounded like a pile of sh..!!! If men bothered to put more effort into connecting to their wives in an emotional way and help them feel close and cared for I expect they would get a lot more of what they wanted in the first place. Chances are they wouldn't need a book to look at their wives would help them out there. But demanding sex every day and being a bast..d about it is certainly no way to get what their after! If they want it to be good in bed (or the living room, or the kitchen, or utility room) then they have to learn enough about their wives to give them what it takes to make them feel good enough about the relationship that they actually WANT to do those things. It doesn't come without a price. Hey porn buyers were willing to pay for their books or whatever 'tool' they used. Try investing a little more into the relationship and give the woman time to see that it's not just something that you're gonna do when you want to "get it on"! Make the relationship real and it WILL happen!! I've been there. As long as things were going well - well things went good all the way around. But when things started slacking off, guess what - the rest of it started slacking off too. You men can't expect to get anymore than you are willing to give. TAKE THAT TO THE BANK!!!!!!!

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I do too, many of the generalizations about men not being willing to give are a steaming pile of BS.

Today is my YD's birthday. I spent yesterday with her and took her shopping. She is 8 today.

We are at a store and some woman I don't know tells my daughter that she is a lucky man, that her dad is willing and able to spend the day with her shopping at the mall, and making a big deal of her birthday.

I wonder, how could a stranger notice this, when my now ex-wife, who lived with me for years couldn't see that I was willing to give her my all.

I suspect there are many more men who ARE willing to give it all, but have been beaten down by women who continually tell them that they are not doing it correctly.

What drove it home yesterday is that ex-wife and I are still sorting out some of the financial disconnects, getting her share of the retirement funds earned in her name soley, and I thought to myself.

She settled for half the money and none of me, when she could have had it all. She chose a man who cheated on his wife and ended a 30 some year marriage to be with her.

I know he was at the apartment last night when I dropped off YD. He was hiding somewhere in there, afraid to show his face. XW was hiding behind the door, in her nightgown at 9pm.

So RMW, I did invest, heavily into my marriage, and I'm divorced. I offered my now ex-wife everything, my time, my money, my attention. It was all thrown away, or invalidated because it was not as her unarticulated picture of what she wanted was.

I told her before we married that I would move heaven and earth to be the best husband I could be, she simply had to paint a coherent picture that I understood, because I was horrible at reading minds.

I still am.

When I asked the question, what is your picture of an ideal marriage well into the marriage, there was no answer.

When I asked for an hour a day where the two of us could connect, emotionaly, physically, spiritually, and mentalally, there was no answer. This request was years before her affair.

When she asked that I be more available, I was. I quit a travelling job to be home more. What was her action? When I'd come home and sit on the couch with her, she would almost immediately get up and move to the bedroom and turn on the TV there, or some other action to shut me out.

I took what you said to the bank, and the check bounced.

So do you blame me for using porn after years of being ignored by my wife? By having my attempts at marriage building, long before I knew of Marriage Builders rejected?

I'm not saying what I did was right, in fact, it wasn't. I'm not blaming her either. I'm simply explaining how I saw things, how my efforts, very real efforts, were rejected. How expectations that I read her mind, or be able to make her happy when she herself couldn't articulate what that meant, were unfruitful and eventually lead to me losing any desire to keep hitting my celebate head against that wall.

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BTW, I haven't used porn since the day she said she wanted to move out, lest anyone think that I believe it's ok. That's over three years now.

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Well obviously there wan't enough communication, even if it was on her part. I had no problem telling David exactly what I needed. And after we'd spend a few days apart, he'd come running back. I told him what my values were, I told him what I needed in a relationship, and for a few days he'd to exactly that, but then once he started getting the sex again, he started his same old routine. I told him how it made me feel to have pictures of naked women on his walls even if it was in the garage, he said he would take them down, guess what, he never did. He called me up at 10pm last night supposedly to talk. When he couldn't get me to agree to his version of sex he started abusing me over the phone again. That's all I get if I can't follow through on his wild, and sometimes sickening version of sex. I don't want his fluids all over my face and where ever else he might want to put them. He refuses to accept that he changes his behavior in any way after he's been with me for a while. Well, that is a flat out lie. He turns from the guy that is kind and considerate to a total ah. I've already explained to him repeatedly what I enjoy about sex and that if I feel no connection emotionally I have no drive for sex. He just said last night well you spread your legs and do it anyway. He even said, "you can work 30 min a day on your back or 8 hrs a day on your feet". I told him I'd take the 8 hrs a day. He said he'd kill somebody if that would make me happy, he said he'd rob a bank to get the money to come see me if he didn't have it. I've taken Dr. Harley's books and plans to him from the beginning and he just gets mad and starts yelling and screaming. Last night I listened to enough of his abuse and cursing that I finally told him if he wanted to continue to talk to me he could do it in a respectable manner or the conversation was over. So a couple of words came through in a lowered tone and then he started raising his voice again and started using curse words again. I told him if he used one more curse word at me that I would hang up the phone. He said he didn't give a s..., go ahead and hang up, so I did.
And by the way his girls are grown and he has 5 grandchildren. His girls hate his guts. The only time they will even talk to him is if they want money from him.
Maybe your wife tried at some point to tell you and it didn't come through and then she was lost and didn't know what to say anymore. Chances are it wasn't just a sit on the couch that she was hoping you would do. She probably wanted you to talk to her about something and felt hurt but didn't know how to express it without getting in a fight. Once the barriers are up it takes a while for then to come down. And things that happen just remind of the pain that hasn't gone away yet so leaving the room and finding something else to do is the easy way out.
David even admitted he was a sex addict. I said I can't deal with that. If he wanted to have a relationship with me then he needed to get help with his problem. I've started seeing a counselor on my own just to help me get through what has been going on and to find out if there is anything that I need to work on. I even had them do one of their 2hr tests on me to find out if there was anything wrong with me. They said no. That my test results came back normal. I have no problem talking to people who want to listen, but even Dr H. said he wasn't listening because he didn't want to hear what I had to say. He told me I was better off without him because from the behaviors we've discussed over the phone as well as online, it was a relationship headed for abuse and control. And I believe him even more now than ever before.
My apologies to you if you think you've done everything necesary and she's all at fault, but I know from past experience (not just my own, but others too) that it takes two to make a problem when communicating is a problem.
Porn used by a so just lowers a woman's view of herself in the man's eyes. And that in itself is enough to turn her off to sex immediately. And it isn't forgotten overnight. So all of that being said, you can either be mad at me or you can take the fact that there are more men out there that are guilty than not. The choice is yours. I wasn't put here to make you happy. That was to be between you and your wife. I stated a case point and you were offended.
But somewhere along the line, not all the fault falls on your x, some of it fell in your lap too.
My biggest problem was I let myself get attached to the man before I found out enough about him to let me know what I would be having to deal with. And with most of the men I've run in to, the way I stated is the way it works - like it or leave it.

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I don't think I ever said I did everything necessary.

I did do everything Steve Harley said to do.

I don't blame my ex-wife solely for the failed marriage. In fact, most here tell me I own too much.

But I don't own her choice to have an affair and choose divorce over seeking profession, pro-marriage counselling to see if the issues could really be resolved.

Let's be clear, we BOTH stated our points, and you called mine BS.

You may not agree with me, but to call something BS and then write and complain because David used the same offensive term seems inconsistent to me.

To say something is a pile of sh... and then cut David off because he uses that word.

Odd, very odd, like a double standard.

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RMW, I think you were wonderful for hanging up on him--he sounds like a total heel, and Enlightened, I also believe that sometimes the "weight of the matter" can lean more to one side than the other. Some people are so handicapped within themselves that it wouldn't matter if their spouse moved Mt. Everest for them/for the sake of the relationship. I believe some relationships are simply (and inevitably) bound for failure due to the inability/unwillingness of one of the partners to make the necessary adjustments/compromises/sacrifices, etc. that the situation requires. Certainly not a one-zize-fits-all, but I do believe such a scenario exists.

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thanks KAT, it was hard to hang up. I know that right now I'm wearing bloody hands because because sometimes I don't know when to just hang up like I did that time. My right hand is swelled up from abuse that I've let go on way too long. At least I did clean it up with peroxide and then betadine. I know he wants the relationship to work, but so far there have been no counselors who wanted to work with Dr. H's program. I've hunted as far as 90miles away and everyone wants to do their own thing - and their own thing never works, but they are closed minded. One day I will be strong enough to cut loose all the way or find a counselor that see's that Dr. H's stuff comes from the Bible. I wish that Brian Wilber was still in the area because he's the one that introduced me to the whole program, but I'd never deny him the happiness that he's found back in MI. Just keep praying for me because God understands things even when I don't.

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RMW,

You are looking for counselors that follow Dr. H's methods. Are there reasons you aren't going directly to the source and try counseling with the Harley's?


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M: 31 years
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Sometimes people need a person to peson counselor. Not everyone that reads Dr. Harley's stuff understands it all the way. I know that I was seeing a pesonal counselor when I found out about his stuff and then went to the seminar. If I had a question about anything before I went and could get online with Dr. Harley, I could always ask my counselor Brian Wilber. Unfortunately, the man I was married to at the time refused to read Dr. H's books (did't like to read) and wouldn't get online to ask him questions. Don't know if it was some kind of "male" thing or if he just didn't know what to ask. But the one I've been seeing has read the two books HN,HN & Love Busters but still doesn't understand a lot of it. He even admitted that he needed someone he could sit and talk to and ask questions.
I did finally get up with my old counselor. I had to track him down on the internet (actually got his cousin and they told me how to get up with him) and he finally called me back last night. He gave me his new phone # so I could get back up with him if I needed to for any reason. But he did tell me who he used (counselors have to have counselors to unload from their counseling of others) and he told me of a counselor in Dothan who knows at least about HN,HN and he figured she would be willing to work with us. An accountability with her will also help motivate when problems pop up and resistance is experienced. Plus Brian will be able to release my old records to her which will help her in the whole process.
Plus there have been times I have asked Dr.H questions and for one reason or another he didn't answer them. When a question is asked, an answer is needed even if the question is one that doesn't seem credible. It could just be that the counselor has to pull information out of the individual to know for sure if they are asking the question properly to receive an answer that will help them. Dr.Harley doesn't have time for that. He already has an overload on what he is doing and doesn't have the time to give all that would be needed in all cases. If I lived close enough to where his practice is (if he still does in office counseling) then I could go to him. But that's not the case.
Anyway, I'm about to get offline now and see if I can contact the counselor that my old counselor referred me to. Got my fingers crossed.

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