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I said it before and I'll say it again...For my sake, I'm glad my H has no contact with me or the boys. I would not react well to his idea of parenting. <BR>Yes, it's sad for the kids, but in my situation, it's better that he isn't around them. At least for now. <P>I was asking my sons the other day how they would feel about me dating. My 8 year old is all for it as long as the man likes to do things with kids. LOL My 10 year old has mixed feelings about it. He thinks that if I would start dating, I would have less time for them. But he also would like the idea of male companionship. I think they would be a little confused about it, but they are starving for male attention, that they would accept it.<P>As for the resentment, I do have some, but only because my H has decided that his children don't exist. I could really care less about his drunken existence and his barfly. I actually saw her yesterday and laughed. One of these days, she'll figure out that he's not the great person she seems to think he is. About the time he beats her face in, she'll change her mind.<P>Mitzi [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Well Bill, now you really will have a flamer... I'm #21... but the more I read this thread the more I realize that it's d@mn near impossible to remain friends with the stbx. Mine did something very hurtful today, and I swear, I could've punched him... I was ranting and raving all over the house. I'm trying so hard to be good, to be kind, to not ask for more than I need, even though I've been told by nearly everyone, including the paralegal, to get more money from David. I just want peace, not his money, and he doesn't have that much to begin with anyway! But I can see, after today, how things can deteriorate really quickly once they go downhill - friendship-wise, that is. <P>Stupid fantasy-filled brain of mine thought we could do this... I'm beginning to doubt it now. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>

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Hi Sheryl,<P>You and David will be friends again once all of this is sorted out. Right now I am sure it is hard.<P>God Bless,<P>JL

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Hi back at ya, JL,<P>We'll see about the friendship thingy. Not sure anymore if it's possible. Once the resentment begins to build it grows wings, you know? And it's not *my* resentment I'm talking about, it's his. Every time he talks to me it gets worse and worse. It's like he gets mad because I'm NOT giving into his games. <P>Thanks for the howdy, and hope all is well with you, my friend.

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I just checked the replies and want to thank everyone for the input. <P>I am really having a hard time...but I don't believe that it is anger that is driving me...I am truly heartbroken, as are my kids.<P>We still have gotton NO reasons.....NO direction. My H comes and goes....he sometimes will be here a lot....he will be nice to the kids...but he is not nearly the connected dad he used to be. In fact...he just doesn't GET it. <P>He talks about teaching our S responsibility and I want to remind him that he shouldn't be the one to discuss responsibility.<P>He mentions that our s should speak up when he wants something and not wait till the last minute.....well DUH!<P>If they are playing outside when he comes and they don't rush in....he says "see..they just want to play with their friends."<P>I want to tell him many things, but I can look in his eyes and see that it is not him!!!! I realize that this once sensitive, caring person is now...self-absorbed....narcissitic...<P>It is heartwrenching to me... I have loved him so..and accepted him....Even now, six months later it feels like a bad dream. <P>Last night at S's BD party he was there, I would look up and feel the warm feeling I have felt when I looked at him all these years. I thought we'd go home and put the kids to bed and talk and then snuggle...which is what we did.<P>I don't think I will ever be able to put my mind around the idea that he didn't see our life this way. I don't know if I can ever get over the fact that I thought he was who he was and he wasnt' and that I thought our life was what it was and it wasn't<P>You know, I accepted and respected my H's insecurities.....I always spoke with respect about him to others...commmenting on what a great H and dad he was....in fact, he was very shy and people usually thought he didn't like them when they first met him.....He could come accross distant. I bridged the distance for him in our marraige and I guess defended him because of his shyness. <P>But you know, that seems to be a pattern in my life....my defending people and thier turning on me!!!!!<P>I can still love him....I can still accept him....I just don't know if I can be a friend to someone who could hurt me and his children in such a way....no matter what.<P>Early in this "possession" when I told him he needed to stop the OP ea he said " put a knife through me then"... I was astounded by that remark.... In fact, it is what made me realize how fantastical this thing really was....<P><BR>I thought to myself. That's how you are supposed to feel about your children......and not your coworker. My H seems to feel more connected to his coworkers and stranger's at work than he does to his own wife, children and family of origin.<P>Thanks for the replies....

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The wife took a few days off with her 2nd OP (the ex-ex lover from 20 years ago) for a few days. This OP doesn't even live here but in NYC; right after a fund rising event she organized she went to the airport and from there they went away and the W came back on the 24th- my birthday.<P>The first thing I saw in the morning was an e-greeting card wishing me "to reach peace of mind and heart"... %$#@- I thought and answered just "thank you". I had planned a big lunch with my daughter and 2 of her little friends and then take them to the movies... this was my party. Then the W showed up and wanted to participate and did. She gave me a watch to replace the one that was stolen a couple of months ago (also her gift 11 years ago); I am glad she didn't replace the wedding band, since it was stolen too.<P>Somehow I was uneasy... not glad to have her there... I almost cried when she gave me the watch, she thinks that I was very happy about it, but I almost cried because once again I remembered the old times and realized that every time that I look at this watch it will remind me of her.<P>Friends? What kind of friends can we be if I can't stand being around her anymore?<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR><B>Live fully and always learn</B>

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I lurk in this forum from time to time although I'm only separated at this point in time.<P>Two thoughts:<P>1) A Friend is defined in Webster's as: "a person attached to another by affection or regard." It doesn't sound to me like anyone here really has affection or regard for their stbx. You know what? That's okay and it's normal! Respecting them as the father and/or mother of your children is YOUR gift to your child, not a gift to them, and it's how you would/should treat anyone on this earth. Just respect them as a fellow human being.<P>2) I sure am glad I didn't have kids with my H. Sometimes I wish there was something to help keep my Plan A hopes alive (like interaction with kids), but if we do divorce, I'll be glad that there isn't ANYTHING that will keep me "bound" to him.<P>Just some thoughts....<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O

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I thought me and my ex could be friends too, especially because I'm celibate. There wouldn't be any of me hoping for something more, and he'd know that too. However, the last time he called me, I asked him why he called and he said he had mail for me or some B.S. like that (which he didn't).<P>Ya know? I just got kinda tired of the head games. If ya want to talk to me, just say so. Wanna see how I'm doing? Maybe miss me a little? Or maybe he felt sorry for me and wanted to make himself feel like a nice guy or something for checking on me. Don't need it. So, when he asked me for my forwarding address, I told him I couldn't give it to him. He said he didn't want me to drop off the face of the earth. Oh really? Like divorcing me didn't just tell me exactly the opposite message? Jeez. Grow up and figure it out, man.<P>Thisalex,<BR>don't cha hate that? That wishing you happiness cr*p? My ex said a couple of months after the divorce "I know you will find somebody who will love you for you". Duh, idiot, that was supposed to him. Guess that made him feel all new-age groovy, though.<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited May 30, 2000).]

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Hi all my friends, <BR>I can honestly say I probably have more regard and respect for those of you I have gotten to know online at this forum, than I have for my wive at this moment....But you all know the emotions (love, passion) don't just turn themselves off.<P>I wanted to chime in with a small update. It's good to hear some of you doing and surviving this divorce thing in a decent fashion. No one said it wouldn't suc*. And I'm not even there. I am still in limbo, mostly in a plan B mode, still in contact because of daughter, but wife is trying not to stay connected in any way. But still.. she has not filed for divorce (if she only knew? maybe she does? that financially it would be better for her) nor have I since I have no incentive (according to lawyer; pay more child support legally, lose some custody time with daughter, and probably lose the house). I am holding on for that glimmer of hope that may eventually grow.. of course only after her affair crashes.<P>Maybe it is time for me to move on..but Bill and others, I have gone thru the anger and resentment and friends (not likely after divorce, no thanks) scenario's and it all comes back to just wanting an opportunity to resolve our marriage/relationship. The lack of closure is what has driven me to this point. I still cling to the SAA statement of the betrayed spouse eventually giving the marriage one more look. Thanks for all the positive tones on this thread, even though I don't always have the strength to add, it is encouraging to read from my online "friends".

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Almost all of my ex boyfriends and husbands have wanted to stay friends afterwards. I really don't understand why. I do understand why some level of friendship is important for those who have children. But then again, are you really "friends". Ok, civil and nice, but friends? There are very few people I consider to be truly my friend. Those are people I know will stand by me in hard times, the people I turn to when life gets hard. Obviously, ex-s are not one of those people, or else we'd still be together. <P>With the exception of my second husband, my breakups have been relatively amicable and not all that destructive. Still, I would not want any of them as friends.

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I partied with the wife last night and the night before. No... not trying anything, just being "friends" (<B>ugh!!</B>); some of the other parties have been business engagements- good excuse, no? [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>Obviously I am calmer now, specially after the most extenuating session with my counselor last Thursday (great woman, really amicable, impartial —a female friend who is also going through divorce had advised me to avoid a female counselor— and compassionate).<P>I could be around her and we basically had a good time while we were with other people, but alone we were rather speechless (what can we talk about without mentioning our situation?)<P>I'll survive this (no, TheStudent, I haven't found "peace of mind").<P>Thank you, Bill, for starting this thread... you were venting but you hit home with several of us.<P>Alex<P>------------------<BR><B>Live fully and always learn</B><p>[This message has been edited by ThisAlex (edited June 03, 2000).]

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Bill,<P>YOU FLAME STARTER!!<P>I hadn't even realized this thread was still going, although it seems to take a turn on the topic. So I decided I had to get in on it [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>My STBXLRB wants to remain friends WHENEVER he and I are alone. What I think this equates to, is that either he and OW are having problems at the moment, or he puts on an act for either myself or OW. <P>In front of OW, he'd have her believe he doesn't want me as a friend when she is around. He loves to rub her in my face and be nasty in front of her. She loves it too.<P>I like the definition that someone put in about a friend. Guess what, according to that dictionary, I'm no friend of his.<P>I like to think of it the way my lawyer refers to it. We will be intertwined (YUK) for the rest of our lives. At this point in time, its like a business relationship in a way. I really am only going to deal with him if I absolutely have to. And when we do, I dread it.<P>No one says we HAVE to do anything. Once we SAID we were going to love, honor and cherish, til death do us part, so long as we both shall live. Well, as far as I'm concerned, the divorce will take all that back. <P>I try hard to be civil in front of my kids. I NEVER argue with him while my kids are there, I just say "ok", and wait it out, so he doesn't bad mouth me and confuse the kids. I let him know that, he is no friend of mine, and although I wish him no real physical harm, I don't think I'd help him out with anything if he needed it. <P>I would think that its the being friends part that sparks on those "what could have been" feelings, because you have that one day when things go well, then a week later, the ex is pissed off for some reason and they treat you like garbage. THen your emotions are back to, I don't know why I bother trying.<P>So for me, I would say, Yes I am DAMN ANGRY these days. I resent him and his happy little life and he's NO friend of mine. <P>Prayers and hugs, Dana<BR>

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Hi Medic,<BR>Ok, back to the discussion from the "piece of paper" thread...<P>This is something that has kind of bugged me for awhile. It didn't use to bother me much before my second divorce, because most of my boyfriends, and even my first husband lasted less than 2 yrs or so. Not much was lost. However, I was with my second H for 8 years. I really hated the idea of losing all that history, so I tried pretty hard to stay friends. However, I just can't do it. Can't stand the thought of him meeting someone new, getting married again, etc. If we stayed friends, then that would be in my face at some point and I don't want to go there. <P>Same thing with my guy-friend. We only dated for a couple of months, but the fact that it followed my divorce only seemed to reinforce my feelings in this area. I was forced to interact with him (in a way) because he lived so close to me and it was awful. Fortunately for me, he either didn't have a girlfriend or didn't bring her over so I was never forced to deal with that. I tried (again) to overcome this thing of mine, and finally came to the conclusion that it is just no use. This is just how I am. Any guy I go out with will just have to deal with the fact that, should he decide to "date" me, and it doesn't work out, that he will most likely be out of my life for good. Another reason I'm not dating...<P>I know alot of it is because of insecurity, which is why I've struggled with it so much. If I ever did have to meet the new girlfriend or wife, then I'd have to deal with all the reasons my ex(s) found me inadequate. I don't want those reminders, so I just cut them loose. <P>After I finish my PHD, I plan to settle down and maybe adopt a child on my own. I think part of the reason I didn't want children with my ex is because, if things didn't work out, again I'd be tied to him forever. Forced to deal with step-mom, step-relatives. Ick. What a pain. Half of the threads here deal with problems with separate households.<P>The supreme court just ruled that a parent has more say than any other person (grandparents included) about who should see whom. That means, that even if some guy is in my life for 10 years, that he won't have a "right" to continue seeing my kids if he decides to leave the relationship. If I adopt on my own, then any man who comes into my life stays there on my (and my children's) terms and noone else's. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 06, 2000).]

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Hey TS,<P>Sure make me run around the board to find you. Hey, I'm gonna be 40 next month. I don't look good running and besides I smoke like a fish. Wait, that's not right. I drink like a chimney. Yeah, that's it.<P>For some reason I am drawn to your posts and responses. I feel we are very much alike. Awhile back I responded nastily to one of your replies. I am still sorry for that. I meant no disrespect. It brought the pain I was feeling to the surface.<P>I could see myself in your writings. I don't know if you are insecure or have a low self esteem. You should not feel either way. You are a beautiful woman [no, I haven't seen a picture, I'm talking the inner self] Hey, for all I know you have three eyes like I do. <P>I make up for my feeling of inadequacy by being very outgoing [obnoxious] and overtly friendly. My son always tells me I should not be allowed in public. I guess I must embarrass him or something. <P>The affair really kicked me in the jimmy. Nothing ever bothered me before that. That's gonna leave a mark. I don't know if you noticed but some folks believe that I have a warped sense of humor. First, I was left outside during a rain storm and second I fell down the cellar steps at age three. That's got to do something to the mellon.<P>Poop, where was I going with this? Oh, yeah. I feel so bad that you carry the pain of what you believe to be YOUR inadaquacies around. It seems you have destined yourself to be, shall we say, partnerless for the rest of your existance. <P>You DESERVE so much more. Leave your baggage at the front desk. That's what red caps are for.<P>Wishing us all the Best.<P>Zippy the Pinhead.

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Medic,<P>My ex used to call himself Zippy the Pinhead. sniff,sniff. [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>He used to say that he was Pinky and I was The Brain. snarf,snarf (that is the sound that Pinky makes). [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>He also used to do a great Kermit the Frog impression. He claimed he sounded like Kermit on his office phone-mail (and he kinda did). <P>Anyway, the self-imposed partnerless existence. I'd rather be partnerless forever than hop from man-to-man the rest of my life. My friend who wants me to date has all these guy friends she wants to line me up with. Men hit on me all the time and it bugs me. Total strangers have followed me into stores to ask me out. A telephone repairman followed me into a shoe store to ask me out. Oh, I won't even tell you some of the things that friends of friends have said to me (like BBOL, best butt on the lake, among others). I think he thought that was a compliment, but it made me kinda mad that he thought he had the right to comment on my *ss. <P>I have a HUGE insecurity when it comes to feeling like a man could actually love me for ME, and love me for life. Being around ex-s just makes me feel stupid for trying to love again and stupid for believing that love can last a lifetime. That is why I'm not dating. I don't like feeling stupid. Hey, guess that is why I'm getting a PhD. A pattern there perhaps?<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited June 06, 2000).]

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OK TS,<P>Now we are making progress. Sorry about the Zippy thing. I used to call every one else "Zippy" and somehow it stuck to me. My employees call me Zip/Zippy. I don't think they really know my first name. I'll try to drop that moniker for you.<P>Ah, Pinky and the Brain. "What are we going to do tonight, Brain?" You know the rest.<P>Next up, <P>GIVEN: TS is intelligent and physically attractive. [I'll take you word on that. No one ever followed me into a store. I HATE YOU!]<P>PROVE: She is worthy of another persons love.<P><BR>I met my W at the ambulance station. Big surprise, right? She was attractive. Blonde, blue eyed. We chatted. Nothing too deep. "Boy, it's hot out". "Yeah, it is." Her best friend had the biggest crush on me. They both came down to the house to visit on numerous occasions. Her friend didn't have a car. I have to thank a coworker who directed them to my front door. <P>The crush with her friend was fading and I made an off the cuff remark to Val that if she ever wanted a beer and a "boff" to stop by. Yeah, I have been warped for a long time. <P>I will never forget that night. It was when MTV was giving away Jon Bon Jovi's house in Sayerville. I was speed dialing like crazy. Well, the door bell rings and she [Val] is standing there. I look around the corner to see her friend. No one else is there. <P>Long story, short [very few living individuals know this story] we made the most incredible love all night long. Yeah, she declined the beer, but took me up on the "boff" Great first date, huh?<P>I'm not really sure why I am sharing this, other than to say that my life would have been so empty for the last 12 years if we wouldn't have taken the chance. We had an undeniable attraction/connection and I don't believe it's over yet. We are both still alive.<P>I married her hoping that love would last a lifetime. [My second, her first] Hoping didn't do it. If only I would have had the Marriage Builders knowledge that I [and you] do now.<P>Yeah, maybe someone else may have come along to make me happy. I don't know and don't live for the maybe's. I would not trade in a minute of my life with Val. That includes the good and the bad.<P>I'm not sure if I made my point to you or just reinforced the idea that I am a complete and total idiot. You decide.<P>I wish you happiness in the future.<P>Zxxxxx. Tim Don't say anything about the beer and a boff thing, ok?

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Your secret is safe with me [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>I don't mind you calling yourself Zippy. Just reminded me of my ex, which isn't always a bad thing. His silly side is what I loved most about him. See, there ya go. Making me remember the good times too. <P>Me and my ex were like love at first sight. Met on a Thursday, he came to visit me a week later. We were inseparable ever since, at least until I decided to go back to school. Our biggest mistake was spending so many nights apart after being attached at the hip for so many years. I really think we both went insane. I know I did.

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You know what Student? That's EXACTLY the reason David and I failed too... we were attached at the hip and then never saw each other! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P>I think I wrote a thread about that once, because my freinds would say it wasn't "healthy" to be so close to my stbx, and dammit if I didn't believe them!<P>How incredibly stupid of me!!!<P>Next time, attached at the hip it is!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Hi NB,<BR>Yep. We did everything together, just like Harley suggests. Even the "yucky" stuff was fun. Grocery shopping, cooking, cleaning. We did it all together. Couldn't even go to the Walmart by ourselves. We saw each other on weekends while we dated, but after we were married, I think we spent one week apart when I went on a business trip one time. That was it. <P>Our marriage was the best during those years. For at least 5 of them, we didn't even have a television. I think the old boob-tube probably ruins alot of relationships too. When we didn't have a TV, we'd read to each other, go running or biking (something active), work around the house, whatever. After we got a TV, it was so much easier to just plop in front of it instead of talking. <P>Another one of my rules. Absolutely never have a TV in the bedroom. If you are not sleeping in the bedroom, you'd better be boffing [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]

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Wow! You guys are hitting it right on the head (being attached at the hip). My husband and I are like that and I have been given grief by a friend or two about it. Other then work, we are together all of the time. In my first marriage it wasn't that way. In fact, if I was around him too much he drove me nuts, so I made a point of getting out with friends. TV is another big thing. My ex was attached to it. Every night he'd plant himself in front of it. Now, my husband and I watch the news at 10:00 (if we are still awake) and I can't miss ER on Thursday evenings! He was never interested in ER but when he saw I was he sat down with me and watched it, now we are both hooked. At night once the kids are in bed we call it "our time". We sit on the deck, have a beer and talk. He was even asked if he wanted to attend a 4 day trip in another state (regarding work) and he turned them down! He told me he couldn't do it because he'd miss his sweetie! I like being attached at the hip!

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