Sue,<BR>Why is it an ego stroke to have some man consider you desirable? I'm guessing physically desirable, right? This is what I mean. Me personally, if I only feel good about the way I look or act when some man is admiring me, then -by definition-the way I feel about myself is tied to the opposite sex. Now, I don't want to be nit-picky. None of us are created in a vacuum. I just hate to see people knocking themselves out to get approval that is usually very superficial (i.e. ego strokes and physical attraction). If someone gets ego strokes from dating, how easy would it be for just any 'ol person to come along and say/do just anything that makes you feel good? <P>If some guy thinks I'm desirable, I don't consider it a compliment because I'm not trying to gain their favor. I simply exist. Their satisfaction with my looks, or whatever, could change tomorrow and have nothing to do with me.

Keridwen,<BR>I read somewhere that the reason the betrayer jumps into a new relationship so soon is because they have written off the marriage some time previous so they are months/years ahead of us emotionally IN THEIR MINDS. <P>Then when reality hits it will be that much tougher for them. Thats the reason the affairs usually don't last for ever.<P><P>------------------<BR>"You can't always get what you want! But if you try real hard,you might just find, you get what you need!"<BR>Mick Jagger

TheStudent,<P>I agree with you about the heart. It is a ROMANTIC that follows the heart, and then when the fire burns out due to stress, everyday life, kids, soccer, career changes, work, the lows become exaggerated and anything that stirs the ROMANTIC feelings can put people right back where they want to be. That is why falling in love with a ROMANTIC is dangerous, as they are always looking for the high of romance. Once life becomes comfortable, the romance is lost and another person can easily bring it back.<P>But what is missing from a ROMANTIC is that people still love you without constant romance. IN fact as a reply to PeskyWabbit, (love the name) if one cares for S so exclusively rather than kids, then the kids can feel left out, abandoned, but she says if the S is put first, all else will follow. However, I have the opposite effects.<P>Life is a BALANCE, a balance of work, of fun, of conversation, of feelings, of shared goals, of intimacy. Sometimes people get OUT of BALANCE, and this is what causes divorce, and what Harley tries to counsel to protect.<BR>I got OUT of BALANCE balancing wife's needs and my needs. W did not appreciate the imbalance, and fought with me about it. I didn't know it was so important to her because of her inability to express them clearly and with the goal of keeping the marriage intact.<P>Some people have different egos, I work with some very, very large ones, and it does rub off, as hard as I try. The big ones don't like talking to me though, as I stand my ground in intellectual debate, and don't need to add to a large ego.<P>But interpersonal balance which sue talks about is a differnet emotional need than yours. That's what makes life so hard, is that the emotional needs change over time and there is no SIGN saying EN#1 no longer applies, see EN#3. I agree with you, but I also understand how Sue feels in feeling attractive.<P>I have a need for deep conversation to stimulate ideas, and new directions to life. From new ideas I get new activities, new choices, new stimulation, new paths to take. It is about life, and everyone's view is different.<P>hang in there, if you find somebody that makes you feel attractive, feel good about it. It will lift the depression. don't get mired in theoretical attitudes. Academia has a tendency to do that to people.<P>thl<P>

My feelings on the subject are pretty much the same as Sue's. The only comment I have is that the difference between what I do and what my spouse did, was that he betrayed the family, our marriage and my trust. Oh and he doesn't have a heart, his brain is in his pants. He is not romantic and he did what he did because it felt good to him at the time. I don't feel guilty that I am happy. I don't think I should be denied happiness. <P>As far as the romantic part, I'll admit, I am a romantic , however, I have a lot in life to make me happy and I don't rely on a relationship to give me the sole happiness. My kids, my family, my friends and my job all give me happiness. Adding someone new into that mix, can add to it, but it certainly is not a SOLE reason for happiness.<P>I know that at 27, I am not going to crawl in a hole and hide for 5 years, 2 years or even 1 year, because, hey I could die tomorrow and I'm not going to die miserable and regretting "what could have been". <P>I wonder if you can't follow your heart, than how did anyone fall in love the first time around? Just because we were betrayed, does that mean we should fear a new person to the extent of staying single forever? <P>Some people do well being single. Some people aren't able to give after they've been betrayed.<P>The truth is, had our spouses followed their marriage vows, none of us would be in this situation. But they didn't. Now we get to choose what we want out of our lives. Some of us don't care to take a spouse back. We'll all take different paths, but as long as we are happy that is all I'd wish for anyone. To be able to find happiness after dealing with an affair.<P>There's no right or wrong answer here because its a matter of opinion, strentgth, growth and courage, and no two situations are really truly alike.<P>Prayers to all<p>[This message has been edited by lonelymom (edited June 02, 2000).]

RWD...<P>I think you are right about the betrayer being ahead of the betrayed. My H has said many times that he has been unhappy for 4-5 years. He put on a good show, though. He never talked to me about it. I wish I could go back and realize what was going on so I could do something about it before it got too late. I think deep down I knew something was wrong but I was in denial or ignored it. When I look back I can see when it all started and I could just kick myself. It seems so apparent now. I guess it's true that hindsight's 20-20. It's such a shame. What's really the most interesting about the timeframe though, is that was about the time I started back to work and started getting interested in doing things for myself. I became a much happier person. I wonder why my being happier made my H unhappy? I think he likes being the one in the "spotlight" and when I started taking control of my life he couldn't handle it. Just a theory. I'm glad you said that though, because it really made me think.<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

This thread is getting so long, part of it being filled with the pretend cyber-date of two posters... I find this really interesting. I'm torn between thinking hey, whatever floats your boat, and hey what's going on here... we say to wait six months after the divorce is final and we're egging on two posters, one of whom I remember is in the middle of her divorce (I can't remember about the other)... all in fun, I realize, but this is the stuff that causes infidelity in the first place, isn't it?<P>And before I get flamed for being a spoiled sport, let me tell you that my divorce is not final yet, but has been filed, and I am seeing someone. So it's not that I'm being judgemental about that! I believe that it's a personal decision when to begin dating, if ever <waves to student>. <P>I also agree about the betrayer having found someone before the marriage ends, and someone else who said that the marriage has been over long before the divorce is final... that's the way I feel, which is why I am seeing this person with a 'somewhat' free conscience. I can't say I don't think that maybe I should have waited a while, but life hands you situations and you do with them what you will... I was through working on the marriage, was seperated for the third time in 8 months, and was getting the money together to file for divorce... then I met someone... <P>So, that's my story... and I sincerely hope I didn't offend anyone... just some musings on a Friday morning.

NB,<P>You sure didn't offend me. Yes, it's me, and I am in the middle of my divorce. But it is all in fun. I can also see your point about this being how affairs can get started. But trust me, I am not looking for real date (sorry, no offense, Murph ) It was just something that came up and kinda lightened the mood. It just gets so depressing here sometimes. <P>Should I apologize to everyone here who is working on their marriage and was offended? If you guys think so, then please accept my apology. It was all in Cyber-fun.<P>Mitzi

Student, <BR>Yes, it does make me feel good to know that others find me atractive, but again that is not where I get my self esteem. It is just another little pick me up, especially at a point in my life where I was kinda down on myself. <P>But I do enjoy the company of men. I like the conversation, the companionship, the affection that can be shared, and I enjoy the sexual aspect of a relationship as well. Could I live the rest of my life without it?? Could I be happy without it? Yes, but these things also add to the quality of my life. And I want them in my life. I don't believe it is demeaning to me to want this.<BR> <BR>The fact is I want to share my life with someone. I want that love, that caring, that comfortable person to wake up next to. I want someone to grow old with, after my kids are gone and we are alone. <P>------------------<BR>Susan

Sue, <P>You rock!!! I love your attitude and feel that your feelings mirror my own.<P>711, <P>Look how long this topic got!! good one!

Thanks Mitzi!! <P>I also agree with you Sue and Limerick!! <P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited June 02, 2000).]

Everyone,<BR>I wanted the same things as Sue mentioned. I've been married twice now. What I want more than the things you mentioned is stability, and, given statistics, the odds are not good. I want to spend time with people who will be there when I'm old, and if statistics are correct, it is not likely to be any one man. I've had two girlfriends for over 20 years each. My niece is seven. These are the people who will be there for me, and I for them, not guy-of-the-year, or even guy-of-the-decade.<P>What I don't want is to waste another 10 years of my life just to have to start over from scratch. I took a big risk when I married a second time, that is why I can't do it again. <P>Whatever happiness I had during those 10 years is not worth what I went through the past two. I'm not saying what you or anyone else is doing is wrong. Maybe I envy your optimism(?) I'm sorry. I just can't afford that. My investment is completely bankrupt, and seeing some of my friend's relationships and what people here have gone through, the end goal seems pretty elusive for someone like me.

Mitzi,<BR> I guess I'm going to have to cancel our date tonight.I tried to make it,but....<P> My hamster got sick,and I had to rush him to the hospital.<BR> My car had a flat tire.<BR> My plane ran out of gas.<BR> I came down with a bad case of the cooties.<BR> I don't have a thing to wear.<BR> I ran out of my medication.<BR> My dog is,.....is having kittens.<P> Don't be mad at me,I really am reliable.That's what my therapist told me even though I was late for my appointment.<BR>Maybe we can meet over at one of Deb's parties.I'll be the one wearing the lampshade.I'll see you later!<P> Hey Sheryl,<BR> It's OK.We're just having some fun.My sense of humor is the only thing that keeps me sane!I meant no offense to anyone here.I doubt that I'll date for a long time after the big D.<BR> <BR> Everyone else,<BR> I didn't want to make a big deal out of it in a separate post,but I sent the divorce papers to W to sign.We'll see just how fast they come back.It's been so long,I'm ready for this.Everyone a great weekend,I intend to.<P> --Murph

Murph,<BR>I'm the same as you. My sense of humor helps keep me going everyday.<P>Geez, what excuses! That's ok. I'm over at Deb's party, havin' a ball!!!<P>Mitzi

Well it's the thread that just keeps going.<P>Sue - I'm with you. You couldn't have mirrored my thoughts any closer.<P>I'm going to take a risk. I want to date, so I'm going to date. Really, we don't know how long we have and we need to live life to the fullest each day. Why pass something up because of the possibility of hurt? I'm only wanting to go out to have some much needed fun, if it leads to more, and then ends for whatever reason, sure I may be disappointed and hurt for some time, but I will just pick myself up and start again. And, they say that we only get the best after we have suffered the most. So each time we fall, we should be getting something better. Hopefully that theory will stand the test of time.<P>As to time, will 6 months to a year, really protect us from getting hurt when we start dating again?<P>I do wonder why some posts seem to say that if you start a relationship right after the divorce it is the same as an affair. Why? If you aren't married anymore and the divorce is final, you are not breaking any vows. I never was unfaithful in my marriage. I never even thought about it. I was really shocked that my x had one. I know I was naive but so be it.<P>RWD: I was only kidding about you being a sports addict. Just a sensitive subject for me. My husband played tennis whenever he could and was gone every Saturday from 8 in the morning till 3 in the afternoon and then would put on football games or whatever sport was on TV when he got home. We couldn't even take vacations during tennis season and he played all seasons. I see now that he used sports to get away from everything else. That doesn't mean that you are the same way. <P>Lonelymom:<P>Go for the counseling job. You would be great.<P>

I do hope I may not need any of the most excellent advice and opinions from all these posts. <P>However, I am glad this came up. Nothing has been filed yet, may change soon. I am one who will wait and hope. <P>In order to "get out of the EMPTY house", I met with a group who sponsor day hikes in the summer, X-country skiing in the winter, and was a lot better for it. Being introverted for the most part, this was a leap for me.<P>If this cannot be salvaged, this may be a way to meet a friend but I do not think it would be fair to anyone else, as has been mentioned, if said friend wants more than friendship. <P>I have been told by a couple of women aquaintances that at my age (what ever that may be) the field is wide open for me. One is my W's grade school teacher. She keeps looking for potential dates for me. <P>The problem is that I'm with those who are not willing to be trusting just yet.<P>Glad you folks kept this thread going.<P>RRunRR<BR>

711,<P>Sports is a sensitive subject for me too. My x accused me of always watching sports, especially when she got home late at night and I would be watching/sleeping during ESPN.<P>Also the fact that my x hates them and is only limitedly interesting watching our kids play them. I made such a big deal out of her missing them that I think I guilted her into going to most of them. <P>I know a lot of other guys that watch tons more than I do!!!<P>rrunrrr<P>I was told the same thing about having the numbers on our side. <P>To make a short story long, at a restaurant I eat at regularly works a married woman, Angela, I know a little bit,( she is my neighbors SIL and she has a d my d's age)and as I was leaving the other day, a friend of hers, that I have seen at school functions but don't know, said I better say goodbye to Angela. Well Angela was busy, and said she would talk to me later. So Angela's friend said they wanted to know if I was seeing anyone because they had a friend that had been divorced for 3 years and wanted to fix me up with her! <P>I really don't know any of these woman, other than to say hi at school functions and in the restaurant, and they don't know me at all, but yet they want to fix me up with someone.<BR>How crazy is that !<P>Someone asked what the difference was between 6 months or a year (before Medic replies its 6 months) and I think that it again it depends upon the person. <P>How soon can you heal from the hurt that you have gone through. Are you healed enough to start a new relationship fresh, without any of the emotional baggage remaining ? <P>I think the key is that it takes a lot longer to heal than we all think. Then when we get in a relationship, we find out we have some of the same problems and the old hurts return and this can't be good for a relationship.<P>In my case, I think subconciuosly I knew my marriage was over long before the affair happened. My counselor even asked me when I felt I had separated emotionally from my then w.<P>She asked this because I wasn't devastated when my then w left me. Part of it is I don't show my pain and the other part of it was that we were living as married singles. <P>She had her evening work and I had my daytime work and the kids. Sometimes now it doesn't seem much different than when we were married. <P>I've been taking care of the kids for a majortity of the time our whole marriage anyhow. Now I jus don't have any of the support she did give me.<P>Part of me is not sure if I want some one back in my life full time. But I do like woman and enjoy their company and will seek it out when possible, after my kids have taken care of.<P><BR>This was supposed to be a short reply, but I'm having a crappy weekend with the kids and the x, so I'm kinda venting.<P>

Deep down, I guess I believe that people get divorced for a reason. Either they can't maintain a relationship or they can't pick someone who can. I'm not exactly sure which category I fall into, but it is pretty irrelevent. In any case, I'm fairly certain that the kind of person who COULD maintain a life-time commitment is not going to take a risk on a two-time loser. I know I wouldn't, so I don't blame them.<P>The men who are my age and still unmarried are generally looking for someone who also has not been married and probably want a family. I don't blame them for that either. The other "good ones" (male or female) are most likely already married and will stay married until their partner dies. I can't imagine that 20 years from now that my poor marital history will be of concern anymore. Plus, when I'm 55 or so, the available men of my age are much more likely to be looking for a companion, which I am very good at. <P>I suppose I get all the male companionship and conversation I need from my co-workers. That is good enough for me. <P>Anyway, I'm just rambling on. Best wishes to everyone here. I sincerely hope you all find what you are looking for.

I'm glad some have found this thread to he helpful. I can't believe it is still going.<BR>What is the record? I haven't been on this site that long. I'm sure there have been others that prompted so many opinions.<P>RWD: Sounds like you just like sports. But, I must have sounded so much like your x when I wrote my comments, no wonder you didn't like it. SORRY!! I certainly don't want to do that to anyone. I hope your weekend gets better.<P>Student: It sounds like you really know what you want and I wish that you find that too. Thanks!<P>All for now.<P>

Hey Student,<BR> Don't be so hard on yourself.Like I told you before,you're not a loser.Like me,maybe you just got into relationships that were doomed to fail.<BR> Don't you think you're overgeneralizing a little on the available men thing?Everybody doesn't fit into tight,little categories.<BR> You know what helps me?Above my computer,I have a large map of the U.S. When ever I think of my situation;how maybe nobody would want a miserable has-been like myself,I look at that map.<BR> I look at my one little town,in a large city,in one state.Then I look at all the thousands of cities,in numerous states,in our large country,with millions of people,and realize my STBX isn't the only woman for me.<BR> That's not to say I'm going to travel the country looking for the Perfect Woman,but it really puts things into perspective.There are probably thousands of men out there who'd love to be in a relationship with you.<BR> And since Mitzi turned me down flat on our dinner date,if you ever make it to Seattle,I'll take you out for a Mocha!<BR>(Sheryl,don't take that the wrong way,again!)<P> --Murph

Oh Murph,<P> <P>Good grief, I hope you weren't really upset with me... I have too many people mad at me these days...<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited June 03, 2000).]