I have read a number of times that you should detach, not worry about what the betrayer is doing, - but that has proved to be terribly destructive. It makes things worse. He tried his best to prevent me from being involved in a medical evaluation he had arranged for our child - when I went to the lawyer about it my H accused me of being controlling. For a long time I suspected that the OW was telling him what to say - it was confirmed when she actually did so while he was on the phone with me and I could hear her in the background telling him to tell me things. Yet, I am the one who is controlling? He accuses me of delaying the divorce, although his lawyer spent months drawing up the paperwork, and after over a year my H still hadn't completed financial disclousure. <P>I don't believe this is really a matter of him wanting control. He has abdicated control to the OW, and is projecting his anger about it on me. It makes no difference what the betrayed does or doesn't do. Absolutely none. Everything is the betrayed's fault - no matter if the betrayed had nothing to do with it - everything is projected on the betrayed. Well, except for the things that are supposedly the kids' fault - like not calling him, in spite of the fact that he has called them perhaps 3 or 4 times in over a year. <P>I will spend the rest of my life never knowing what he is going to do next. I can't possibly prepare for all possible eventualities. I expect to spend my life in court or spending large chunks of money on lawyers, because everytime he feels like it he will come up with another excuse to deduct something or other from the child support, or make some major unilateral decision regarding the kids. <P>I have come to the conclusion that you have to be crazy ever to have children except through anonymous AI. You have to be crazy to get married, crazy to trust anyone. It matters not how well you know them, how many years. At any point, everything they ever believed in can fly out the window, and they can become a completely different person.

Nellie: I am so glad you posted. I was ready to call out the dogs. Where have you been?<P>I cannot believe what you continue to go through, like some surrealistic nightmare. And I cannot beleive the obvious mind control the OW has over your husband, like he's a robot in some weird cult.<P>Is there anything your attorney can do to prevent the OW from interfering? Can you record her blatherings in the background showing that she's running the show and your husband is parroting her venom and poison. Ugh. I'd hate to have her karma.<P>Nellie, you are so skeptical and jaded. I don't blame you after all you have and are going through, but, your husband is extreme. My husband was like that for a couple months, not a year or more like yours. I know that what he is doing is insane, but then, so is he right now.<P>I don't know why God allows these horrible things to be visited upon our families and children and on us. I will never be able to comprehend the whys. However, I am finite and what He has in store for us in the future will be borne out of the heartache we experience now. There are lessons, bitter painful lessons to be learned and it is so hard to see what they are when we are so angry and hurt.<P>I am so relieved you are back here posting because you are documenting what is happening to you and the kids and providing yourself some relief by getting it out here in journal format. <P>You're in my prayers, Nellie. Don't let the poison overtake you. They aren't worth it.<P>Catnip =^^=

catnip,<P>Thank you for your concern. Yes, it does remind me of a cult member. So much of what he says and does makes no sense. One of the kids tried to talk to him about feelings, and in response was chastised for something he supposedly did months ago. <P>The OW seems to be becoming more and more blatant about her control. Every time she told him to tell me something, he sounded more and more irritated. I have received a couple of rather peculiar emails from strangers that I expect were really from her.<P>I know my H misses the kids, but apparently takes no responsibility for the fact that he sees so little of them. It is always someone else's job to maintain the relationship. Sometimes I think he is temporarily insane, but often I think that the insanity is permanent.<BR>

Nellie,<P>Glad to see you posting. I just wanted to pop in and say hi. <P>To answer your question, (which I'm sure you will start some flames on this one too), take some time (a few hours) LOL, to read 711's post on dating and take a look at the different perspectives on the whole thing.<P>I asked that question a few months ago, WHY would anyone want a relationship ever again? What would I have to be crazy? To open myself up for more hurt, pain and confusion?<P>Well, one day, you will heal , not completely, but to a point where you are ready to take a different road in life. Being single, being lonely, you can only do it for so long. I'm not saying that is why people get in a relationship, which I'm sure it will be misinterpreted.<P>However, get used to being with someone for 11 years, and spend some holidays alone, or listen to all your friends talk about their husbands, their boyfriends, their plans for the weekend. Pretty soon, you start to miss it. <P>A relationship, when not married, can be a lot of things. Conversation, companionship, it doesn't have to be anything too serious. <P>I know your not asking this because you are looking for one at this point, but you do always have good posts.<P>Just wanted to say that I am reading your posts, even though I don't always reply, and to let you know that I have been where you are and believe it or not, you can get strength and courage where you never knew you had it.<P>Someday, I do believe, most, if not all of us , here on the MB board, will actually go on to a new life. It happens. <P>Sending you prayers and strength , <BR>Dana<BR>

Dana,<P>My H and I were together for my entire adult life. I miss our relationship terribly. I miss everything about it, and perhaps especially I miss my best friend. I would give a lot to have that relationship again - but if I have learned nothing else, I have learned that it is foolish to trust anyone. You can never count on someone being who you thought they were. It is not just a matter of not being able to count on their continued love. You can not count on their values, what is important to them, anything staying the same. It matters not that you have known them all your adult life, and that they have behaved fairly consistently in many ways for a quarter of a century. All that can change virtually overnight. Someone who, whatever faults they may have had, has seemed to have been basically a good person, who treated others with compassion and fairness for many many years can throw away his conscience virtually overnight and become cruel and heartless. Someone who has been a fairly independent person his entire life can suddenly attach himself so firmly to the OW that he no longer seems to have a personality of his own. Someone who has always been a devoted father can suddenly put his children's needs way down his priority list. <P>Why would I ever want to have another relationship, when I know that I could wake up one morning and not only would it be gone, but the person would be filled with hate and would go out of his way to hurt me, even if it hurts his kids in the process.<P>One of my kids once asked me, after hearing about a man who murdered his family, how you can know that your husband will not murder you. I tried to reassure her that such a thing was very rare. Unfortunately leaving your spouse for someone else with no warning and without ever mentioning that anything was wrong, and then feeling (or at least expressing) absolutely no remorse or regrets is sufficiently common that it seems foolish to me to risk it. Even if I could have been ecstatically happy 24 hours a day for the last quarter of a century, it would not have been worth the pain that I have gone through the last 15 months.<P>

Nellie1,<P>You mirror my own thoughts exactly. When people tell me I'll find someone new, it makes me angry. <P>I went through the worst time coming to my current decision, to stay single/celibate. I had to let go of so many of the dreams for my life. Giving up the dream of spending my life with one person (or any person) was probably the hardest thing I've ever done.<P>Someone said you can only live alone for so long. However, you are not alone. Even though I don't have a "man" in my life, I am not alone. No, I don't have the pleasure of waking up next to someone every day. On the other hand, I also do not have the fear of that being taken away suddenly after devoting however many years of my life to them. I don't have the fear of being talked down to or disrespected. I don't have to deal with them watching sports all the time, hanging out with their friends all the time, staring at other women, going to strip joints (even occasionally), or feeling guilty for having goals in life. What do I miss? So many things. But I don't miss all the BS that goes with it. <P>I have caring friends and family to give my love to. So do you. You are not alone, and you can give and receive love from them without having to worry about any other man doing what your H did. You may feel confident enough to have another relationship again someday. However, don't let people tell you that is the only way to feel whole or loved though. If you feel like it, you will. If you don't, you won't. It is your choice.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Nellie1:<BR><B>I have come to the conclusion that you have to be crazy ever to have children except through anonymous AI. You have to be crazy to get married, crazy to trust anyone. It matters not how well you know them, how many years. At any point, everything they ever believed in can fly out the window, and they can become a completely different person.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I hope these words are temporary thoughts that come from your current pain. I hope that these thoughts are replaced some day with a more open heart.<P>Yes, I know that divorce and a destruction of all you held to be true is incredibly painful, but only by trusting can you experience a connection with the rest of the world. Partial commitment = partial joy. Why limit yourself to only a small bit? Only by risking big can you gain big.<P>My first divorce was incredibly bitter. my exH was a stalker. He threatened to kill me. He had investigators following me. He stole my garbage. Loosened the lug nuts on every single tire on my car. Called at all hours of the day and night. Just looney stuff. This was a man whom I thought loved me more dearly than anything living on earth. I never wanted to be close to anyone again. <P>But, I did, and for a few years, it was bliss. yes, it is true that we are now facing divorce, but some of my experiences with my H are the most wonderful memories of my life. So many worthwhile things would have been missed had I crawled up and died. Even though the pain, I have experienced growth and maturity, so the trade for me was worth it.<P>All of life is a gamble. You never know what is going to end up being a pot of gold or a pile of SH**, but you can't win anything if you are not in the game. <P>I hope you ante up again when you are ready.

TheStudent,<P>Thanks for the support. I would rather never have another relationship that risk going through this again.<P>popeye,<P>Sorry, but your story just reinforces my decision, as do the stories of other people on this board. <P>All my positive memories are tainted. ABSOLUTELY NOTHING GOOD HAS COME OUT OF THIS INFIDELITY. It would be a complete and total lie to pretend that anything good did. I used to be a reasonably optimistic and trusting person. And I know now that that was incredibly stupid. Life may be a gamble, but it is foolish to risk your life savings on such a long shot. <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited June 05, 2000).]

Nellie1,<P>When I made my decision to stay single, I was really, really angry at first. There are days that I still am. I feel just like you, that there is absolutely nothing that could convince me to "risk my life savings" ever again. Don't care if Jesus Christ himself came down to marry me....<P>There is something I want to ask you though... If you choose not to invest your life with another relationship, please take the time to invest in other human beings. It has done wonders for me. I know you have your children, and I'm sure they must give you a whole lot of joy. I started doing alot of volunteer work. Something I'd always wanted to do, but never had the time to do when I was married. It is soo nice. It has somewhat restored my faith in people, which I needed a great deal. Even saying that, I know I will never go back to investing my entire emotional health on one person. No way, no how.

I remarried again because I want a life with a committed male companion and I am as well committed to him. I want to be exclusive sexually and in all ways with one man. I find Harley's ideas on a successful marriage workable and I agree with his positions on living together before marriage.<P>When H#2 found his internet group and started joining the real-life parties it was inevitable that a female would come along. I have not been interested in the bar scene for years and let him do his thing. He did all the typical, nasty cruel infidel stuff. That is when I found MB. That is when I read all there is to be found here and decided he wasn't worth Plan Anything and 'K' said something to me that cleared my mind. I also decided that because H#1 was an infidel too I was NOT, NOT, NOT going to live the recovery war again. <P>I married at 25 and by age 29 my H#1 was in an affair. I was all tied up in my career and getting my masters and yes, I let the marriage slip. However, it damn near destroyed me. I was totally out of "it" for 3 years. No life, no dating, didn't like men or people, no trusting anyone and a walking mass of emotional pain.<BR> <BR>This last time I was screaming at my shrink, "please, tell me what's wrong with me, what am I doing wrong ??!!!" The thought of living in an emotional hell for 3 years again scared the heck out of me.<P>It's hard Nellie, it really is. People who have not been through marital infidelity just don't understand the excruciating pain. My current H doesn't "get" it. But what is he or myself to do with the fact that I previously married people who did one of the lowest most scummy things they possibly could to a spouse?<P>So, all I am saying is that I did go for that second marriage and got burned again. What was different is the way I reacted. All I could change was how I would deal with it.<P>I think you are totally correct in that all men would/could do this to your marriage at any time and it is totally out of your control. But, you are so changed after a previous infidelity marriage. <P>I want this marriage with my current H but if he takes the infidelity route, or beats me, or emotionally abuses me I CAN handle it and I will move on once again. <P>So, I am told this is maybe not the best attitude to have in a relationship. Any husband who doesn't like it is as free as me to move on.<P>He'll be annoyed that I posted to what he terms The Pain and Hurt forum and that I read here once again. But he must accept the fact that I still deal with this some days.<P>Whatever your road is through this mess and wherever you go I hope you find peace Nellie.

TheStudent,<P>I do volunteer, although I don't have much time now.<P>It doesn't matter. Her beautiful curls are gone, most likely because the OW wanted them to be. I know he misses the kids, but he seems to blame me and/or them for the OW and her kids not wanting them around. <P>One piece of advice I would give anyone before having kids is that they should have a written parenting plan signed by both parents, to use especially in the case of divorce, so one parent can not decide that the children should be raised completely differently than has been the case for their entire lives.

For those of you who don't feel you can ever be vulnerable with another person again, I urge you to take some time to heal, forgive and rethink this choice. I know that infidelity and torn families are horrible things. I am living it too, but do you want this to rob you of the rest of your life? You're giving your betrayer way too much power over your life and future! How long do you want this to affect you? As long as you hold onto it, you remain a victim. Reclaim your power and forgive. The forgiving is not for the other person, but for you.

popeye,<P>This has nothing to do with forgiving. How can you "heal" when the betrayer keeps wounding you over and over? I would have to be an idiot to risk letting anyone else hurt me and my kids like this. Knowing that you can not trust anyone not to change into a monster virtually overnight, it would be insane to leave yourself vulnerable again. You may want to believe it won't happen again, but it probably will. Realizing that is not being a victim. It is only being realistic.

Nellie, <BR>First I want to say that I have read many of your posts, and the pain you are going through is real, the hurt you are experiencing is probably the worst you have ever felt, and you are validated in your feelings. <BR>These experiences can create huge barriers in our lives. Why would we ever trust again when it hurt so bad? Why would we ever try to love again when the pain seems unbearable?<P>I believe it somes down to the basic thing is that we are human. There is a part of us that enjoys and may actually crave the human experience with others. This does not necessarily mean marriage, though it seems that society somewhat dictates that. <BR>If the pain you are going through permeates your being, if at one point you can't let it go, (and that may take a while) it will turn you into a bitter and lonely person. The holding of this anger and pain will make you a person you don't want to be. There will be a point where you will heal some and the pain will diminish. <BR>Hopefully it will diminish to a point where you will be open to some of lifes' experiences that you are closed to now. For all of us, it takes a different time frame. <BR>You know you are a good person, you just got dealt a bad lot in this marriage.<P>------------------<BR>Susan

Some people just don't get it. There is a difference between being hopeful and being stupid. Being hopeful would be walking around in my bathing suit on the beach and not worrying about getting raped, because lots of other people are there and I, and many other women, have not gotten raped there. So, there is no guarantee that I will be safe, but the odds are pretty darn good. Stupid is walking around in a bathing suit at midnight in a bad part of town, "hoping" I will be safe. REALISTICALLY, trusting your emotional health, and that of your children to one person, has consequences that are much,much higher than the HOPED for outcome!! <P>That is not being bitter or being a victim. I have a life. I have good, loving, caring friendships and family. What I'm getting sick of is people telling me I'm "sick" for not wanting to pair up. I'm sick of people judging my emotional health upon whether or not I'm sleeping with some guy (exclusive or not). I'm sick of people counteracting my very real experiences of emotional hell in my relationships by telling me "you'll find someone better next time". What the heck for? Usually, so THEY can pretend that it will be better for them because they can't stand the idea of sleeping alone the rest of their life, and will risk their emotional health, and that of their children to get that. NO THANKS!

Hi Nellie -<P>BIG HUGS to you!!<P>Although I don't post all that much to you....I do read it all. It makes me sad to see that you are still stuck in this same way of thinking.<P>You are in a situation where you have a controlling, manipulative witch for an OW.....this is the most frustratingly hurtful position to be in. <P>Your H's brain is mush, just like most in his situation only the effects for you and the kids are worse cuz SHE is operating the remote control to his brain!!!!!<P>This "man" that interacts with you and the kids IS NOT your husband....you know that!!!!! It is the witch!!!!<P>ONLY TIME will aid in breaking your husband free of this "dead brain" syndrome enough to realize what he has allowed to happen.....<P>In the meantime, there is much that you have to deal with and handle to protect the children.....let alone your own sanity. I am sorry that you have to but you do.....else, she will mess up those kids even more.<P>When it is said to detach yourself, etc. It is meant for YOU personally...for you to come to a place with your emotions where you can handle what has to be done without the pain and hurt to your own spirit.....<P>It doesn't mean "physically" detach like in not talking or seeing him.....YOU HAVE to with the children....<P>Understanding what is really going on with him, is the key to this detachment. He has lost himself and she took hold of his brain and is leading him...<P>There is good to be had out of this....It is the good that YOU CREATE for yourself and your kids....<P>You can decide to have a positive or negative perspective...<P>You can decide that he is in brain coma and this is life until he recovers and you have to be the strong steady person in all this....<P>You can decide to counteract all the negative effects on the children with teaching them some positive loving, understanding and compassionate life lessons through your own example.<P>You can reinforce the memory of what life was like with H and that things sometime happen in a person's life that cause them to lose their way....but that they can always find their way back to the good person they were.....<P>So, Nellie....it's up to you, babe!! I know your feelings and they are all true and real......but the dwelling on them is not productive to you or the kids.<P>The children need input from you....they need to learn that although this is an awful situation, there can be understanding from people when you love someone......<P>They love their dad, whether you or they want to or not....he will always be their dad. You will always be their Mom.....<P>Don't we need to teach that through love and compassion comes understanding? Isn't it true that understanding does not mean agreeing with a person's behavior, but allowing to love them despite it?<P>I wish I could lift this cloud for you Nel, I really do!!! I know that you need to reason things out.....but you have done it over and over and it all comes down to the manipulative witch and the vacant head of H.....<P>BIG HUGS,<P>Sheba

Hi <B>Nellie</B>, and also a big hug for you! As always, I'm sorry for your pain.<P>Also, hey <B>Student</B>! Love ya, hon!!!<P>Bottom line: personal choice! You both have it, you both have every right to do as you choose...<P>Best wishes and many blessings to you both!

I thought I was going to die when my x left. He had been in a cerebral affair for quite some time and left me for another woman. <P>I have come to realize that God made us. He gave us the ability to make choices. Sometimes we make good choices and sometimes we don't. When we make bad choices, other people often get hurt. When we make bad choices, even God does not get His way.<P>I used to think that God would fix things if I prayed hard enough and believed sinceely enough. But He doesn't. He is there for strength and comfort. But we have to do our own homework. He puts the answers out there but we have to find them. And we won't always be given the answers. (Dueteronomy 29:29)<P>A friend pointed out to me that my husband's sexual behaviour (shall we say that he was sexually anorexic?) sounded like that of a sexaholic. She recommended that I visit SAnon - a 12-step group for persons who have close relationships with sexual addictions. They recommend that you attend at least 6 meeting before you decide whether or not this group is appropriate for you. In that room, I found so much healing. I knew that I was not alone. That other people had dealt with even more betrayal than me.<P>The meetings are similar, I gather, to AA and AlAnon meetings. There was never a lot of addict bashing. We worked on the general theme sharing our experience, hope, and courage. I came to realize that his behaviour was not my problem. My response to it was my problem. <P>I would encourage people who have been sexually betrayed to seek out the closest SAon group immediately. 615-833-3152 is the phone number for the SAnon International Family Group. 615-331-6230 is the phone number for SA central office.<P>Please, if you have been wounded by the sexual behaviour of your partner, child, or other close individual, call SAnon!!!!!!! <P>And if you are the addict in this relationship (whether it manifests itself in <BR>illicit sexual intercourse, obsession with pornographic visual or audio media, self abuse, whatever), call SA!!!!!!<P>

Ok, time to put in my 2 cents worth. I agree with Nellie & TheStudent. I do not ever want a relationship with a man...no relationship, no marriage, no nothing. And I also get the "oh, don't miss out on your life just because you've been hurt" stuff. What's to miss out on? I gave 15 years of my life to this man. Followed him all over the country while he was in the military. Gave up my college degree and a career so he could be in the Navy. Left my home and friends, endured years of homesickness, loneliness while he was at sea, being a single parent during all that. And for what? So when he goes thru a MLC he can just tuck tail and run off with a new model? I don't think so. I will never give myself away like that again. I will never turn over my personal life and power to anyone ever again. If that makes me less of a person then so be it. I don't need another human being to make me whole. In fact, I had LESS of a personal life in my marriage, but I didn't mind because I loved him, my kids, my home, my life. But you can bet your bottom dollar I won't set myself up for this again. Burn me once, shame on you...burn me twice, shame on me. I'd rather be alone, thank you very much!<BR><P>------------------<BR>Blessed be.<BR>****************<BR>Keridwen<P>Keridwen_7@yahoo.com

Keridwen,<P>You said:<BR>"I will never turn over my personal life and power to anyone ever again. If that makes me less of a person then so be it. I don't need another human being to make me whole. In fact, I had LESS of a personal life in my marriage, but I didn't mind because I<BR>loved him, my kids, my home, my life."<P>You know, I feel exactly the same way. Some people call it bitterness. In a way it is. Bitterness, regret, and longing for the things I COULD have been doing instead of wasting my time on a relationship. I guess it all comes down to our goals. You, me, Nellie, don't see the end result, which involves potentially sacrificing our life goals for one person in some emotional lottery game, as being worth what we have gone through. <P>The big question is "If you knew then what you knew now, would you still make the same decision to marry?" For people who are still hopeful and want another relationship, I'm guessing that the time spent with this other person was considered worthwhile. Me, you, and Nellie feel differently. <P>Personally, I feel that women are set up to sacrifice more than they get in return, as well. We're told from a young age that the man's goals are supposed to come first, and we put ours second. Religious teachings also tell us women that we are supposed to "submit", but that men are supposed to "love your wife as God loves the church". Boy, now that is just real vague. It is a whole lot easier to remember that "submit" stuff. <BR>