My stbx and I have been talking civilly for the past month or so. We agreed that we would file in December after the baby was born in November, since I was still under his insurance.<P>Well tonight we were being totally honest with one another and he told me the truth, finally. He said that he could just not get pass my one night stand over three years ago and that he's sorry for all that he did, but that I never gave him the space he needed. He said that though we are not legally divorced, that he feels as if he divorce me two years ago.<P>He said that he started a relationship sometime in March with a married woman and that he slept with her a couple of times in April. My God this is when I found out about my pregnancy. He said that, that relationship ended shortly after I told him about the baby.<P>He started another relationship in June with a significantly younger woman, and that it just ended about three weeks ago. Now he's seeing someone else, but he says he doesn't see it going anywhere, but he likes the company.<P>He said that he just couldn't be with me. He said that no one has ever made him feel like I use to, but he has lost that feeling for me. That I hurt him like no one else had. He said that he would not live in unhappiness for the mere sake of the kids. That he has lost the will to save this marriage. (That apart of this decision was because he didn't want our marriage to end up like his parents. His mother never really loved his father and stayed because of him and his sister. She committed suicide shortly after there 23rd nniversay in 1996). ANd since he lost his in-love/romantic feelings for me along time ago, that it was necessary that he left. He never meant to lead me on, that he wants to continue to be a father to our daughter and soon to be son. He asked me to please move on. He says that I deserve to be treated right. ANd that he just wants to be happy!<P>God knows if he told me this a few months ago, I would have been a wreck. Things has gotten easier for me to deal with, NOT EASY, but easier. The weird thing is, is that though I was preparing for my divorce, I still had a little hope somewhere deep down that there would be this divine intervention, and things would be okay! <P>This hurts really bad. God knows I asked for him to take the love away from me that I had for my stbx. Maybe this will help me face the reality of it all. I can't believe I stayed calm on the phone. Even while he tried to justify what he is doing now, with what I did 3 years ago. I can never justify what I did, but God knows I never did anything to intentionally hurt him. I loved him. ANd ever since, I have given it my all. But instead I got punished endlessly. I thought I deserved it.<P>I never thought I'd be in the place where I am now. But you know I'm young, I have my career and, & above all I have my children. I don't regret marrying him. I dont! I just need to get rid of a lot of bitterness that I feel. I need to really learn to let GO! <P>Please keep me in your prayers, I feel like a death has happened. I really believed in my marriage, I did! OH WELL <P><BR><P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Hey Jamie-lee,<P>I'm so sorry for all the pain you are feeling right now. I think we have spoken over the last year or so, are you the policewoman?? I'm sure I was following your story a while back.<P>I have no idea what to say to you, to make you feel a little better, however, please know that someone is thinking of you, and saying a prayer for you.<P>I'm not in quite the same situation as you, however, I have a husband (at least for the next few weeks or so....) who walked away from our marriage without a backward glance. He will not even contemplate trying to work it out. I will never understand that.<P>Has your husband ever considered counselling for himself, to try and deal with his anger about what happened 3 years ago.? I know how hard it is to try and get men to see someone about relationship problems, ie, a counsellor, but maybe it will help him. I guess I know the answer to that though, if he doesn't want to do it, he won't. Plain and simple.<P>Please take care of you and your babies. They are the ones that deserve the best, and you will be the one to give them the best. By that, I mean the best mother ever. These men become what I call 'sometimes Dad's', sometimes they are there, and sometimes they are not!!!!. Their choice. My 2 girls are far too young to understand that, but when they are older, they will understand. Please don't get me wrong, I encourage and nuture their relationship with their father, as he does love them, but when they are older, they will see for themselves.<P>I'm thinking of you, and keeping you in my prayers.<P>hugs to you<P>Jo

{{{jamie-lee}}}...<P>I'm so sorry for you...<BR>...and your child.<P>Your H just doesn't know how to forgive you <B>or himself</B>!<P>I'll be praying for you.<P> <P>Jim

Hi Jamie-Lee!<P>Well, you kinda suspected all along that he'd never gotten over that, didn't you? It is a shame, bcs he could have grown through the experience & ended up a bigger & better person. But, some folks cannot face hurt, and run instead...sounds like what he's been doing.<P>You, on the other hand, chose to face things honestly & courageously, with love in your heart. You have a lot to be proud of, you know?<P>I'm sorry he couldn't handle things, but it is his loss.<P>You take care of yourself & kids...<P>Hugs & prayers--<P>Kathi

jamie-lee,<BR>Yours and my experiences are so similar. My ex too said he could not forgive me for my short affair. He too used that as an excuse to go run off with another woman (that he knew before my affair) less than a month after my confession. Dated pretty much non-stop during our so-called reconciliation.<P>I've been divorced for about a year and a half now. I had punished myself mercilessly for the year we tried to reconcile (and let him punish me), and also during the time after our divorce. I too had this idea that we had a good/great marriage before my affair and that my infidelity was the cause of my divorce. However, after much time and counseling, I see that this is not really true and I'll tell you why...<P>Although I did not cope with the problems in a constructive way, there were problems!! Significant problems, alot of which had to do with my ex's inability to take responsibility for his part in our marriage. LONG, LONG before my affair. As I see it, my ex used my affair as an excuse to do what he wanted to do anyway. I see your H as doing the same. Our affairs did not end our marriages. Our H's, for whatever reason, simply cannot take responsibility for their part in the problems. Their lack of will existed BEFORE our affairs. <P>Like I said, no excuse, and God knows there are better ways of getting someone's attention. However, I'm very certain my ex does not have what it takes to make a life-time commitment. A life-time commitment involves having the WILL to be loving, even when you don't feel like it. Both of us lost faith when we cheated, but knew what we had committed to when things got tough. Our ex's don't "feel like it" anymore, they have our affairs as an excuse, and just move on to the next person. IMO, my ex would have done this eventually with or without my affair as an excuse, because he simply doesn't have the will to work at a relationship. Didn't before my affair, and didn't after. <P>Heck, my ex couldn't even "forgive" me for not replacing the blade in his razor when I first met him, much less infidelity. He is not a forgiving person. That is too bad. He can stand on his pillar of self-righteousness forever, but someday, he will want and need forgiveness and he won't get it. Then he can think about what he did to me. However, I very much doubt he will ever have that much power of introspection.<P>My only suggestion to you right now, is don't let your H put all the blame on you for the failure of your marriage. Don't let him punish you anymore. If he can't forgive you, then let him go his own way. He'll have to learn the hard way that commitment to anything means the ability to forgive. Odds are, he's not saint either, and you've forgiven him for quite a bit. Sad, that for some reason they think they are so perfect and not in need of forgiveness themselves. The sin of pride is just as bad in God's eyes as the sin of unfaithfulness.

It all sounds so familiar You made a mistake you deeply regret, he can't get past it (and *thinks* he's lost the love for you, and as time goes on believes it more and more) and then makes a few himself, can't forgive himself and it's over.<P>I'm sorry, and yet, strangly relieved for you... you do know the truth now... and can move forward, if not just a little bit.<P>I continue to pray for you and your baby, and your daughter. You are by far one of the loveliest women I have ever met on these boards, and God will bless you!!<P>Sheryl

Jo,<BR>Yes, that's me. We have spoken before and it's a pleasure hearing from you once again! Thank you so much for your thoughts & prayers. It means alot. My stbx didn't think we needed counselling. Like you said, he was too stubborn to go. All he thought was that he needed space. His type of space was coming home at all hours of the night and expecting me to 'deal' with it. I couldn't tell him how to deal with what I had done, but I just thought that we needed to work on the marriage together and not apart. But the more space he took, the less he loved me, and the more it drew him to the past women he has been with!! <P>Jim,<BR>I agree with you whole heartedly. He proclaims that he forgave me, but I know he never has. He also claims he has no guilt for his physical/emotional relationships due to him 'spiritually' divorcing me two years ago. I think it's bull, but I must go on. There is nothing I can do about it anymore. Thank you Jim so much for being here. You really don't realize the impact you have on the people here. Or maybe you do <P>Kathi,<BR>I also agree that he didn't know how to face hurt. As I take full responsibilty for my actions, I just wish he would too. I just pray that he continues to be there for our daughter and soon to be son. Thanks for the hugs and prayers. You have been a constant support for me and I do appreciate it!!<P>TS,<BR>I always wanted to believe that he never went out and dated/slept with other women. I wanted to hold on to that small glimmer of hope. But I knew something was going on. The intuition was so deep. Like you, I punished myself and allowed him to punish me endlessly. It was so weird, because even as he told me about these affairs, if I would in the least bit sigh or sound like I wanted to say something, he would get so defensive and start to say things like: "you did it", "you ripped my heart out", or "I told you I wanted a divorce, before I ever slept with anybody, it's not the same." Whatever!! If all I have said and done in these past two years, have not sufficiently proved to him what my true feelings are toward him, I have no other proof to offer. I'm done. Thank you for your support. I think that you are a strong and wise women. I don't always reply, but when I am on the boards I read everything you post. I have learned alot just from hearing your experiences. I truly believe that there is nothing in this life that we go through that is just for ourselves, but it is also used as a testimony for someone else. Thank you TS!!!<P>Sheryl,<BR>Besides TS, I know that you too are familiar with the 'revenge & punishment game.' I never thought it would come to this, but reality has struck me and I am prepared to move on. It's amazing to me that my love for him is still so strong. He has not been a H to me for the past two years. I think my love for him was really unconditional. But wisdom tells me that I must let this go, or I will continue to set myself up for disappointment and hurt to no end. I am relieved as well. Now I can go on and remove myself from this "sordid, colorless existence" state that I was in. I actually feel okay today. My bitterness is fading and I think that I will be able to be civil with him. You know I hope that all is well with you. You know your opinion means alot to me. You have been with me since I came to the boards and I love you for that. Thankyou for all your support and ever so sweet words of encouragment! I pray that all is well with you. <P>To Bill,<BR>Thank you for the chat last night. It's nice to have friends like you here. It means alot!! <P>Mitzi, <BR>Thank you for the hugs you sent, by way of Bill, last night. Believe me, I needed them! <P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

jamie-lee,<BR>I swear, I could "cut & paste" what my ex said into your post. You know, hon, I'm sure this wasn't the first time your ex punished you for something. It has taken me a long time to see how I have been punished over the years for many,many things. Stupid, silly things that slowly erode your soul. Oh, like putting the coffee spoon on the counter. I mentioned forgetting to replace his razor. pick,pick,pick. Like Chinese water torture. In a post to WilliamJ one time, I called it "blood-letting". All the time, I'm thinking, "if I just do this (and this, and this) then things will be better". Nothing was ever good enough though. <P>On the verbal abuse thread, someone mentioned a book about verbal abuse (I can't look at the thread right now, or else I'd give you the name of the book). I checked it out on Amazon.com and it got good reviews, so I bought it today. <P>I'm glad something good came out of all this (your baby). I hope he can be a good father. Ah, this just makes me so sad. Another family split apart. <P>It sounds like your H has some unresolved stuff about your mother's suicide. People commit suicide even in "good" marriages. I wonder if, deep down, he blames his father. <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 13, 2000).]

Hi Jamie,<P>I am so sorry to hear about what is happening to you. No one deserves to feel the pain of infidelity, no matter what you have done. Another affair doesn't help the pain of infidelity, it just doubles the number of people hurting. To me it has been an insidious pain, because only those who have experienced it realize what it is, the panic, pain and anxiety. Dr. Harley is one of the first to recognize that affairs hurt. <P>That is what attracted me to MB. Let me quote from one of Dr. Harley's articles on infidelity:<P>"After having counseled thousands of couples with hundreds of marital conflicts, I am completely convinced that a spouse's unfaithfulness is the most painful experience that can be inflicted in marriage. It is worse than physical or verbal abuse, worse than sexual abuse of children and worse than all sorts of other forms of criminal misconduct. To be convinced of my rather radical conclusion, you only need to go through it once. It is absolutely devastating to most people."<P>Jamie, I could have been your stbx. (Thirty odd years on the force, (or divorce department if you prefer.) I didn't find out about the affair until six years after it allegely ended. But that didn't stop the knot in the stomach, it didn't stop the fear, and it didn't stop me bouncing off the walls for the next three or four weeks. Two points, I couldn't control the panic and anxiety, and couldn't convince either my ex or the therapist that I was a mess. Both were convinced that I was up walking the floors at night and that I lost forty pounds in the next six months trying to punish her.<P>I had a difficult time with her indifference to the hurt inside me. Our love life died when the affair happened, not when I found out. She would tell her friends that I was a good provider, but she needed the thrill of feeling the wind in her hair. (OM was a motorcyclist) He was such a complete lover to her, she felt exquisite passion in his arms. She called me a life support system for a paycheck. Jamie, I know you don't want to hear this, but that was a real vulnerable time. When another woman hugged me, darn it, I needed to hug back. And when my ex found out I was in a affair with her "best friend", she felt the pain too. It was the first time that she acknowledged that affairs hurt. I can't justify what I did, but just as she couldn't feel remorse for her actions, I didn't feel much remorse either. Just as she sought to escape responsibilities for her actions, I sought to escape the responsibility for my actions too.<P>I spoke to myh ex recently and asked her about it, and why she stayed with me and the kids. She could only explain that even though she never really wanted me after the affair, she didn't want any other woman to have me either. <P>Jamie, I'm so sorry you had to find out the things you did, no one should have to face that pain. Others have pointed out that your ex could have grown from the experience and become a bigger and better person. No one here can control that, but the opportunity for you to grow and become a bigger and better person seems to be as open to you as it was to your ex. Praying that you stay strong for the kids, <P>Bumper <P><BR>

TS,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>All the time, I'm thinking, "if I just do this (and this, and this) then things will be better". Nothing was ever good enough though. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I felt that way exactly. And I do feel as if he has unresolved feelings about his mother's suicide. He admitted theat he compares our marriage to theirs and did not want ours to end like theirs. I think he will be a good father. He calls our two years old two or three times a week just to talk. He also said that he wants to be here for the baby's birth. You know I think that us staying together for the kids sake is a bad idea. Because the best gift parents can give to their children is to love one another. And if he can't sincerely love me, than it's best for us to move on. Hey I saw that you weren't going to Nashville, but sometime next year I was coming to Atl to see a friend, maybe we can have a girls night out!!<P>Bumper,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Jamie, I know you don't want to hear this...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Actually I do want to hear this. This forum has helped me to understand myself as well as what my H was, and maybe still is going through. <P>However Bumper, from day one I accepted responsibility of my actions. Not trying to justify my actions or anything of the sort. I felt that he had the right to know so that he could make the decision of whether to stay or go. He chose to stay. And since I could not tell him how to deal with his pain. I let him treat me like the pure trash I felt I was. <P>I guess by reading your post I can understand a little better on why he feels no remorse or guilt, however that was never the case with myself. I had a hard time dealing with it my own guilt and not feeling worthy of his love. It still hard for me to feel as if any man would want me with my history and all. Plus the thought of being with someone else is just far beyond my thoughts.<BR>When I think of him with those other women or with anybody else for that matter, it does hurt. It hurts like hell. But I' moving on and trying to salvage the good feelings that I have left for him since he was my bestfriend befoe we ever started to date, plus for the kids sake.<P>I don't know how long you've been divorced, but how are you getting along? Once again THANKYOU. <P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Bumper,<P>I don't know what your wife did or didn't do, but I too felt extreme remorse. My ex felt very little remorse for his part in our marriage. After being divorced for over a year and a half now, I can honestly say that there was little remorse he ever felt for pain he caused me. I recently read something that makes alot of sense to me...He and I were operating under two completely different paradigms. You see, I was under the (mistaken) impression that our marriage was a partnership, that both of our feelings and needs were equal. Therefore, during our arguments, I naturally made every effort to fully consider his viewpoint, often overridiing my own in the spirit of team work. I (mistakenly) believed he was doing the same. In time, though, it became clear that his viewpoints were never tempered by my input. If I didn't agree with him, I was pummeled into submission, one way or the other. His paradigm was dominance and control. His goal in our marital discussions was not one of understanding, it was to manipulate, dominate, and control. Any action on my part that thwarted his efforts to dominate me (physically or emotionally) were met with both subtle and overt aggression. <P>So, it is natural that he did not feel any remorse for hurting me. Since, to him, I was merely a possession. Once I was "tainted" in his eyes as a prize worthy of his trophy shelf, I became a non-person. As a matter of fact, I never really was considered a human being apart from him to begin with. In the final analysis, we really had no marriage. I was his "pet" that he couldn't control, who "bit him" and he decided to send to the pound...End of story.<P>That man remorselessly killed my spirit over the years, and messed with my head, and for some reason, I let him. He could have slept with a zillion women, and it would not have hurt half as bad as the things he said to me...<P>Jamie-Lee,<BR>I just got done reading "The Verbally Abusive Relationship". I swear, every page could have been a documentary of my own marriage. You might want to check it out. I also found some destructive patterns that I was doing as well. In the book, they talk about "abuser" and "partner". I don't think that the person being abused is necessarily always the victim. I think that, after awhile, the person being abused can take on abusive characteristics in an effort to counteract the treatment of the person doing the worst of the abuse. A vicious cycle. This book was very enlightening. The most interesting part of it was the idea of two separate realities between people: One in which the person assumes mutuality, the other in which the person assumes dominance/submission. As you may guess, our culture tends to support a dominance/submission interaction instead of mutuality/equality, which I think is EXTREMELY destructive to both people. Harley supports POJA, which requires mutuality to be effective. <P>I'd like to meet you when you come to Atlanta. My e-mail at school is gte807f@prism.gatech.edu<p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 18, 2000).]

Jamie Lee<P>Don't know if this is going to be helpful or not, but there is an important point not addressed in the thread yet. I realize that you said you wanted your husband to know so that he could decide if he wanted to stay with you. Now, when you decided to reveal the incident of infidelity to your husband,<BR>what did you want out of the admission for yourself? <P>WIFM, The what's in in for me question! Just something you might like to think about. If I've learned nothing else in thirty years on the job, it is that deception and self deception are two hands that will fit into the same glove. You will have to get brutally honest with yourself to answer that question or it won't do any good. <P>It ain't over till it's over. From what you say, your STBX still has a big interest in the unborn baby boy. I don't have the words to tell you what it meant to me to have sons, it a guy thing. It's a [b] BIG [b] guy thing. <P>Praying for you, Bumper<P>TS<P>>>Our H's, for whatever reason, simply cannot take responsibility for their part in the problems. <<<P>There is an old Irish proverb that goes something like: "If you would know yourself, listen to your criticism of others"<P>You caught me off guard with the use of the word paradigm in the context of a marriage relationship. Been out of school for a while, but isn't a paradigm a model used in the intellectual community to simplify the explanation of scientifically accepted phenomena? <P>>> "Therefore, during our arguments..."<< <BR>What you describe is pretty common. Arguing with a woman is like trying to blow out a light bulb. No man ever won an argument with a woman, all he ever did was pummel her into submission. Any man who thinks he won an argument with his wife is just too stupid to realize that it ain't over yet. I don't think Harley would ever be as cynical as I am, but he gets around this problem with POJA and with his ideas about negotiating rather than arguing.<P>It's awfully difficult to read a person through the written word,one reads about all the forgiviness you have done, but one senses subtle anger. Am I missing something? <P>I've read several of your posts. You are a very talented person, real gift with words, and you put forth some powerful ideas.<P>Bumper<P><BR>[This message has been edited by Bumperii (edited October 18, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by Bumperii (edited October 18, 2000).]

bumper,<BR>I've taken responsibility for my part--adnauseum. Jamie-lee is an old-timer who knows my story quite well. Both she and I have been posting here (on and off) for about two years, I'm guessing. Sorry you haven't been privy to all of the background information. <P>Yes, you might detect a bit of anger. It doesn't matter what I did to the marriage, he had no "right" to abuse me. Just as, no matter what he did, did I have a "right" to cheat on him. Abuse me he did, and unremorsefully for over a year. There IS a reason why the only betrayers here are female, and why the vast majority of betrayed on this board are female as well. <P>The book I mentioned does consider most victims of abuse to be female, and I do too. Our culture conditions men and women to take either a dominant (mostly men) or a submissive role (mostly women). I don't think that is healthy. Even worse, men don't feel like "men" unless they are in "control". So, by definition, who are they controlling? Or, should I say, who do they think they are controlling? You could argue that women have their own methods of control (i.e. through withdrawing sex for instance?). The whole issue of who dominates or submits sets up a dynamic that is in opposition to a truly loving, sharing environment. I agree that Harley's concept of POJA addresses this, thank goodness.<P>The answer to the "what is in it for me" question. My ex and I did not communicate well, for reasons I mentioned earlier. For some reason, my ideas, feelings, and needs were not considered as important as his. If I did not agree with him, then I was wrong, crazy, misguided, whatever. There is no way to have a constructive discussion in that kind of environment. After awhile, a person says, what the h#ll. So, what was in it for me was the HOPE that he would finally understand how much he was hurting me with his anger and criticism. Nothing I said before sunk in. I'd tell him straight out that I was hurting, that I was afraid of him, and so on. His response was that it was all in my head. There is NO marriage where one person shoulders all the responsibility for the problems. I had done that for 8 yrs. <P><BR>Main Entry: par·a·digm<BR>Pronunciation: 'par-&-"dIm also -"dim<BR>Function: noun<BR>Etymology: Late Latin paradigma, from Greek paradeigma, from paradeiknynai to show side by side, from para- + deiknynai to show<BR> -- more at DICTION<BR>Date: 15th century<BR>1 : EXAMPLE, PATTERN; especially : an outstandingly clear or typical example or archetype<BR>2 : an example of a conjugation or declension showing a word in all its inflectional forms<BR>3 : a philosophical and theoretical framework of a scientific school or discipline within which theories, laws, and generalizations and the experiments performed in support of them are formulated<P>I'm using definition #1, but also maybe #3 as well. The paradigm (and scientific/theoretical construct) is the dominance/submission vs. mutuality/equality "schools" of thought and ways of relating. It has been said in many different places and many different ways, that women seek relationship and ways to find things that are in common. One reason why the traditional competitive, one-up, way of doing business is very foreign to women (in general). Since I have to function in both worlds (personally and in a male-dominated profession of engineering) I have to be "fluent" in both styles, if you will. I happen to believe that both styles do have their place, especially in business. It is only recently, perhaps in the last 5-10 yrs that companies have realized that teamwork actually ENHANCES the competitive advantage of a company. Go figure! The idea of the trail-blazing pioneer who dominates all of the competition has it's place (i.e. Bill Gates), but he didn't build Microsoft all on his own. Now that he is married, I'll bet he's getting a few lessons in teamwork <p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 18, 2000).]

TS<P>WOW, what a response! All the "correct" answers, straight out of the text book.<P>Once when we were attending a couples therapy session, a guy was complaining about his wife. She was well liked in the group. One of the guys spoke up and said, "Ken, all the defects of character you attribute to your wife must be true. That's probably the reason she didn't pick out a better husband than you!<P>"As scarce as the truth is, the supply has always been in excess of the demand." ....Josh Billings.

{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{JAMIE LEE}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>I am SO sorry to hear this. I haven't replied a lot to your posts because I couldn't at many times due to what I was going thru but I know what you've been thru.<P>I am sorry that you have to go thru this, especially while pregnant. I went thru a death in the family while pregnant, stress at this time is not easy. Your emotions are already a wreck .<P>You are a good person. We all make mistakes, and I wish your H could get past something that we are all capable, and now he himself, is capable of doing. <P>It sounds like a lot of his past is coming out now that might show you why he feels the way he does about your situation.<P>I hope and pray that you will find some peace. I can't read all the replies so if I am repeating something someone else said, I appologize.<P>A marriage should never be "just" for the kids. But its a darn good place to start and at least try. <P>You will be in my prayers,<BR>Dana<P>

bumperii,<BR>I think I understand your point. What it really boils down to is that both my ex and I had faults, were guilty of bad judgement, and certainly we both have areas we need to work on. The difference is, I wanted for us to work together to solve our problems and help each other with our individual shortcomings. My ex didn't. He wanted a divorce instead. That is what I mean about his inability to take responsibility for his part in the marriage. If he could have done that, he would have realized that his problems are not going to go away when he finds someone new. I learned that, and Jamie-Lee learned that. Our H's haven't learned that yet.<P>Forgiving someone does not mean they don't have to be accountable for their actions. Telling people here that my ex could not find the courage to take responsibility for his part in the marrige does not relinquish my own (in case you are confused about my intentions for bringing it up). Doesn't change the fact that he didn't and couldn't, though. Maybe I'm just stating the obvious. You are preaching to the choir here. <P>I think what both me and Jamie-lee are bothered about (and Jamie can correct me if I'm wrong) is that both of our husbands turned around and did exactly what we did, had little or no remorse, punished us in other ways, THEN they want to claim the moral high ground and haul b*tt. My impression of your first response to Jamie was similar. Noone is saying you or our ex's didn't have a right to be hurt. Both Jamie and I have expressed sincere remorse for hurting our H's. The double standard is what gets me. Seems to me, our ex's need to turn to another woman in their time of crisis should have given them just A LITTLE insight into how jamie and I were feeling at the time we cheated. Should have made them a little more humble, IMO. Instead, they were focused more on revenge. That is my opinion of what you did as well. <P>My ex said "I needed a friend". Well, duh. So did I. Wish it could have been my ex, but he decided that kicking me in the face made him feel better than looking at himself.<P><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited October 19, 2000).]

I was having problems getting logged onto the site yesterday. Sorry I'm late you guys!<P>First to Dana:<BR>Thank you for your support. No need to apologize about the 'repetitive'thing. In fact, you weren't repetitive at all. Besides, if you were, its you support that means alot. I am slowly finding some peace in it all, but it will take time. I hope that you are feeling better. I know that this is a hard time for you with the divorce and your SIL's death,but you are in my prayers as always.<P>Bumper,<BR>As far as why I made the admisison, not only was it because I wanted to give him a choice, but also because the guilt was killing me inside. I would cry and he wouldn't know why and I just felt so damn trashy and guilty. The admission helped me alot. It made me know that I was not living a lie.<P>TS<BR>you can speak for me anytime. You articulate very well the exact feelings that I do feel oh so very much.<P>But I'm at work and I gotta go. I'll check back tonight!!<P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

Jamie Lee,<P>Regards the WIFM post, I didn't expect you to post a response. It is one of those questions to stimulate introspective thinking. People rarely do anything that important for a single reason. If you think about it from time to time, there is a good chance you will come up with some more stuff that might help you understand. <P>TS,<P>Very very well said. Once again your points are well taken. Lots of insight there.<BR> <BR>There has never been a problem convincing anyone that I had a right to hurt. It never got that far. The problem was in communicating to either my ex or the therapist that I was hurt at all. Didn't have the words to say it in a way she could hear it. After all, it was six years old, it was only etc., and it was only etc., etc.<P>My case had one thing in common with you, she insisted on the divorce and she divorced me.<P>I wish I could tell you that I am so pure and virtuous that I didn't have a need to punish. But then who the heck would believe that anyway? Only a fool would discount the revenge motive in what I did. I could write a laundry list that would include revenge and selfishness. Whatever it was, it didn't work. It was like setting off an atomic bomb to light a cigarette. Things are so clear in hindsight.<P>You're both great. I just had a mild heart attack Monday morning. Got the roto rooter treatment and they put me off work for a month. You two are keeping me company. Thanks for the come backs. I'm hooked on marriage builders and the wonderful people I'm meeting here.<P>