Unconditional Love? Or should I say...<P>Should the love you have for your spouse be unconditional? <P>I know some would say that that everything in life has a condition, besides the love that you have for your child. However if that were the case, why do some disown their children or family members when they do something that "the family" considers a disgrace.<P>But really what I'm talking about is the love between husband and wife. I know for me, though I'm trying (<B>keyword:</B>trying) to accept that my divorce is inevitable, I really believe that I love my stbx unconditionally. I know that I was first the betrayer and NOW betrayed as well, but I can't believe after two years of this rollercoater, how I still love this man. I feel absolutely nuts for loving him so. <P>I know it comes a time that one must let go of the relationship, maybe because of a physically abusive spouse, drug/alcohol addiction, habitual cheater, or when a divorce is forced upon them. Yet this doesn't mean that the love is gone. Nor that it will ever will. <P>So how is it that one can move on with another when their heart will always be with their H or W? I guess that's why it's hard fo me to see myself dating? Or with anybody else for that matter? Is that close minded? I don't think it is, but I don't think I could ever love another man to the extent I do with mt stbx. So how is or would that be fair for another man? He'd always be second best? And I'd never truly be happy. Maybe content, but not happy or fulfilled. <P>This is what my MIL dealt with. Her heart broken by a man who she never stopped loving, but then marrying another (my stbx's father). She never truly loved him as she did, the man that hurt her, but married out of contentment and security. Later having children and staying for the kids. After the kids are all grown, she ends her 24 year marriage with suicide. I will never go to that extent, but partly for this reason, I just can't see myself with another when my love for my stbx will always remain.<P>I've said this before, but maybe, just maybe marriage would be seen more 'sacred' if divorce was never an option!<BR><P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com

jamie-lee,<BR>Well, I think you know what I'm going to say. In order for you to "move on", you will have to convince yourself of the exact same things your ex convinced himself when he decided to divorce you. Here's the list...<P>a) I married the wrong person<BR>b) Our marriage was probably doomed anyway<BR>c) We can never be really happy together<BR>d) We are completely uncompatible<BR>e) I deserve better<P>There are more, but that is good to start with. Those who have not chosen divorce are at a big disadvantage, because they haven't gone through all the steps a) through e) yet.<P>I don't know if I will. I'm trying, but I can't seem to totally buy into it. It seems that marriages are as happy as people want to make them. My ex didn't feel like trying any more. Neither did yours. It really is just that simple. The "mating" instinct ran out for them, and that is when their "love" died, IMO. <P>I don't think I'm "in love" with my ex anymore. What I am in love with was the idea that we could make our marriage something we could both be happy with. The idea that the answer is somehow "out there" with someone else is what I am opposed to. Swapping faces doesn't do a damn thing. Oh well, I guess it is fun in the beginning, but in the end it is all the same. People still have to figure out how to work out their problems, they still have to figure out how to communicate.

Jamie Lee,<P>I noticed that your copy of the serenity prayer doesn't say God. If this is because you left it off on purpose then forgive my reply. If you accept Gods word they read<BR>1 Corinthians 13:4-13.<P>I use to think it was all a bunch of bull and thought nothing of leaving my first husband. Of course,I was very young. I didn't believe love lasted forever. Then about three years ago I "thought" I didn't love my 2nd husband.A funny thing happened though, I cared that I felt that way. I didn't really trust God at the time but I prayed to love my H again. It took awhile but my love returned stronger than ever. The problem was that I didn't turn to God to restore our marriage. I thought that loving him with this new love would be enough.I was wrong, although I had not told him about how I had felt about losing my love for him, he knew. It had hurt him so bad that he convinced himself that he no longer loved me.<BR>It has been bad for about three years. He filed for divorce in May. I had already turned my life over to God, but it is hard to turn your marriage over to God to fix.I found it takes a great deal of faith. When I was broken enough, I finally found this faith. I now trust God to bring my husband back. Soon after I turned my marriage over to God,I decided not to show up for pre-trail<BR>hearing.I prayed about it and told God I trusted Him to stop the divorce. Two days later my lawyer called and said my husband didn't show up either so the judge past on the motion. I didn't ask my H why he didn't show up. It didn't matter what his reason was, I knew who stopped the hearing. I stopped asking my H to come home and started trusting God to fix things. I did forgot to show one leap of faith, I forgot to let my lawyer go. A month later she called and said <BR>her and my H lawyer were going to meet to set new date. I prayed and realized I had to let God know that I trusted Him to handle my marriage. I called my lawyer and had to leave her a voice mail. I told her I was not contesting the divorce and wanted to drop all motions I had started. I also said I no longer needed legal representation. I told my husband I trusted him to do what was best for me and our children. I have not heard from either lawyer and that was over a month ago.Since then my H has done several things he said he would never do. The main difference is that I keep my mouth shut. <P>So yes, I have learned through much heart break that unconditional love does exsist.<BR>I thank God for the love He gave me for my H<BR>because I didn't think it did exsist. I even thank him when it hurts so bad to be rejected because I know God is teaching me so much that I never knew before. <P>I don't know about your MIL maybe she didn't turn it over to God. Going to church doesn't mean you turn it over to God. It is not about what we do it is about what we hope in and for. Maybe she hoped in the wrong thing. Maybe she should have hoped for God to give her love for her husband your FIl.I don't know about her but I do know that prayer and faith is powerful but you have to trust God for everything. This usually means we are to stop trying to control and fix things ourselves.Love always protects,always trust,always hopes, always perseveres.<BR>I hope this helps you it has me.I know I will love my husband until the day I die. I also know no matter how hopeless it looks my husband will be home. <BR>gentle<P><BR>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 11, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 11, 2000).]

TS, <BR> <BR>As far as the steps..<P>A) I really believe that there was a purpose on why I married him, I don't think he was/is the wrong person. Is there a such thing as the "right" person?<P>b) Maybe it was doomed...I don't know for sure, but I guess that's why I feel that divorce shouldn't be an option in the beginnig.<P>c)This I do wonder...what if he did decide to try again, would it be possible for us to genuinely be happy, or did I just need the satisfaction of not being rejected? hmmm<P>d)We are alike in alot of ways, but also different in others. I thought that we balanced one another. I saw alot in him that I wished he could help me become. Also, there was a lot of things that he even admits, that I helped bring out in him.<P>e) But ofcourse, I do know that I do deserve better. But I mean as far as treatment. If I look past our differences, my stbx is a good man. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ORINGALLY POSTED BY TS,<BR>My ex didn't feel like trying any more. Neither did yours. It really is just that simple<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You are right, that is what it boils down to. I can't make him do anything he doesn't want to. And I'm not saying that I won't get past this, but I just feel that I will always truly love this man. Regardless!<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ORIGINALLY POSTED BY TS<BR>The idea that the answer is somehow "out there" with someone else is what I am opposed to.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This, I totally agree with. Because If i were to date now (not going to happen), if my situation with my stbx would somehow miraculously turn around, i would drop whomever that person in a minute. And how fair is that? Besides, I need to work on Jamie, before I could try dealing with somebody else. I thinK I need to be complete all by myself.<P>gentle,<BR>Actually, I wasn't aware of the serenity prayer until I met with this counselor who had this signature on her information pamphlets. That's actually where I got it from. I did recently see it, with "God" at the beginnig. nevertheless, I am christian and wholeheartedly believe in the bible.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>ORIGINALLY POSTED BY GENTLE<BR>I also know no matter how hopeless it looks my husband will be home.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I think your faith is at a level far beyond where I am located. You see, I constantly struggle with the idea of faith versus reality. My faith is that God is able to restore our marriage. The reality is that, God gives us all free will and that if he (my stbx) isn't willing, God won't go against that.<P>I do believe that this marriage had more purpose than just our kids coming forth if you know what I mean. I just don't think I was meant to just bare his children and that's it. I don't believe that the same marriage God blessed at the altar is something I have a right to abandon without fighting like hell to save it. I just don't think God changes his mind due to circumstances. So therefore, I believe if he does file he will have to answer to God, not me. I know these are some really bold statements and I'm so confused on what to do. I could have filed a long time ago, but so could he. i just don't have the courage nor the peace to file myself. But I know that I have done all I could. Yes, I have tried to fix and control the situation. And yes, it has gotten me nowhere. <P>But unconditional love is something I really believe in, but I don't think that just because I have it for him, that he will stay in this marriage. I just think that it will prevent me from ever remarrying years from now, if and when he does leave me.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I know I will love my husband until the day I die. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>ME TOO <P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com<p>[This message has been edited by jamie-lee (edited December 11, 2000).]

Jamie Lee,<P>The part about free will drove me crazy at first. Then God led me to a ministry that really change my view about free will. I believe when we don't turn things over to God and we try and control them then our will gets in the way of Gods will. This ministry pointed out that Gods will is mentioned over 90 times in the Bible but man's will or self will is not mentioned once.When we pray and trust god with all our worries God is in control. Faith is believeing in the unseen. No matter how things look, if we believe they will change according to Gods will they will change. God has to work in us first. He changes us into the person He created us to be. A broken spirit is what God needs to sow good seed.<BR>Please undestand I am not judging you I am trying to show you how I got my faith. I had no faith this time last year. One person can save a marriage by allowing God to do the work. I know this sounds crazy but it really works. All you have to do is believe, read Gods word, pray for His will, and allow God to work in you. God turns the heart which way he wants but not until we allow Him to work in and through us. Remember the war is not with your H but with Satan.It is a spiritual war which God will fight for you if you ask. It does take time and things could get worst as you put your faith in Him to fight for you because the evil side doesn't like your faith and will attack you and your family harder. God will win if you believe and don't give up.I NEVER understood this before and I would not believe it now if I had not been so heart broken. I pray you will give this consideration. Faith is believeing in what you cannot see reality is what you see. The choice is yours. It is a very narrow road and one I am thankful I found. I do see the changes in my circumstances but it takes time and prayer. <BR>Please consider these verses.<P>Eph6:12 For our struggle is not against flesh and blood, but against the rulers, against the powers, against the world forces of this darkness, against the spiritual forces of wickedness in the heavenly places.<P>Matt 19:26 With men this is impossible but with God all things are possible.<P>Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen.<P>Proverbs 21:1 The kings heart is like channels of water in the hand of the Lord;He<BR>turns it wherever He wishes.<P>Ps 37:4 Delight yourself in the Lord and He will give you the desires of your heart.<P>Ps 37:5 Commit your way to the Lord,trust also in Him and He will do it.<P>Prov 21:1 The Lord turns the heart wherever<BR>He wishes...<P><BR>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 12, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by gentle (edited December 12, 2000).]

Here's something for you Jamie-Lee...<P>I think you know I've been married twice. I talk alot about that "till death do you part" stuff alot. No matter what anyone says, we are bound to our ex-s till death and they are bound to us in some way shape or form. That is why divorce is such a tragedy. Divorce does not really remove them, or their influence, from our lives in the great big scheme of things. <P>Even people who go on to remarry are affected by their previous marriage(s). To think they can somehow erase that, and have a fresh start seems very naive.<P>In my first marriage, I did not promise till death do us part. I was prepared to, but he changed the vows at the last minute without my knowledge. I should have walked, but I didn't. I went to that altar with a different purpose than he did, and I remained true to MYSELF and what marriage meant to me. He cheated on me the day after our wedding and didn't stop the entire time. After he decided to divorce me, he had our "marriage" annulled and remarried within a year after our divorce. When he annulled our marriage and remarried, I felt like I had personally been released.<P>In my second marriage, I did make that vow. I broke my vow of faithfulness, as did he. I too had faith that our marriage could be restored in spite of that fact. I don't think I will feel like I've truly been released until he remarries. That is when I know that there is absolutely no chance of a reconciliation. I asked him for an annullment, and he refused. He told me he never trusted me before he married me, so as far as I was concerned, he did not enter our marriage in good faith. He entered it thinking "if it doesn't work out, I will just go get a divorce". He was never in it for life, from what I can tell, and he proved it.<P>From what you said about your ex's mother, my guess is that he had that option in the back of his mind too. The exit door was propped open from day one. That is no way to start a marriage.

Hi Jamie-Lee,<P>I don't believe you ever stop loving someone, but I do believe love evolves, and just as a passionate love will grow to the warm sustaining love that years together give you, or that kind of love you have for a spouse that you have children with, so can a love devolve. I loved a man I was engaged to once, but that engagement was broken, and the love was never allowed to evolve to something truly meaningful. I still think of him. I thought I would never like that again. But that was before I experienced the love that developed with my husband. I will always love my ex husband, but the passionate yearning I had during the worst of our times together has passed.<P>I view it as God's protection. And I am amazed at a human being's capacity for love. <P>But something Gentle said, really hit me - my relief was found, when I trusted God. I didn't pray for my husband back, I prayed for guidance to do the right thing. I prayed for relief from the pain. It worked. That is still the general thoughts behind my prayers, to let God handle it. It was a long time for me to be able to truly do it, and believe it. But it works. It gives you clarity, it gives you hope, it gives you back a future.<P>I honestly don't know what my future holds, life is so confusing at times, but I do trust that God will show me the way.<P>The serenity prayer is simple and powerful. <P><BR>

jamie-lee,<P>Do I believe in "unconditional love"? Most certainly "yes"! Is it something easily reached? By far - no. It is God-like and therefore is often very difficult for us as humans to achieve. Does that mean we stop trying? No way. For all God ever asks of us is to keep trying our best - that is all we can do.<P>But, should "unconditional love" hold you back from moving on with your life? Don't think so. You make a good point that God did in fact give us all free-will. And unfortunately, that free-will is a double-edged sword. It can be used both for good and for bad. It is up to the individual to decide. True He can't make your husband change his mind and return, but He can make it very difficult for your husband to ignore His (God's) will. Someone close to me told me months ago that asking God to "change my wife's mind" is not something He wants to do. BUT, asking God to open up her heart to Him and to my love, is something that He is more than willing to help with.<P>How would God open our spouse's hearts? Through songs on the radio, through smells that remind them of good times, through friends, through family, books, tv.... He has many vehicles to use. But what good is His help if we are so quick to close down "our" love for them and move on? Or to believe we need to get cold-hearted and mean to help us heal?<P>But what if our spouse's still refuse to see His will, then what? Well I don't think that "unconditional love" means that you can only love one person your whole life. If your spouse chooses to walk away, then so be it. That does not mean you need to chase their memory the rest of your life. In that case I strongly believe you need to listen to God's calling - You need to find out where He wants you to go in your life. For some, maybe that means being single, but for others God may have someone else in mind.<P>gentle,<P>I believe 100% in what you say about faith. I can refer to several incidents in my life where God came through for me and it is no coincidence that at those times I had "unwavering conviction and faith" that He would see me through my problems. Trouble is I feel I am so close to that faith and belief in His power, but I just can't seem to take the final step. I so want to give my marriage to Him, and even though I believe I have in done that in the past, I know deep down that I really have not submitted myself and marriage to Him totally.<P>It is the doubts - the realizations - friends - family - strangers - all giving me reasons why my marriage is doomed. But yet I still have faith (maybe not as much as I should have). My challenge is to get to the point where I can say "God here is my marriage - do as You see fit". I also know that no matter how hard we ask, God will not grant us something that will hurt us - He just won't. So I am not kidding myself by believing that if I place everything in His hands, things will work out like I want them to. But I do believe that if I do just that, things will work out just like He wants them to and that is what it is all about...<P>God Bless,<P>Mike<BR>

Mike you are so right about it being hard to turn your marriage over to God. I kept thinking I had then all the pain helped me realize I was wrong. I still try and fix it but I now realize it quicker than before and repent as soon as I do realize what I have done.Ask God for the faith you need.He will give it to you. He did me and there can't be a lot of bigger sinners than I have been.God doesn't want you to be in a marriage that will hurt you. That is why you are not together now. Please pray that Gods will been done in you and your spouse. I have the same problem with family and friends saying maybe God has something or someone better. It bothered me at first, but I would just get into His word and He would strengthen me. I have even stayed away from some family members for awhile. Since God has answered so many of my prayers, they know it doesn't do any good now to say anything. They have seen me go from being a hopeless mess to finding peace. So they don't try much.My family really thought I was crazy to let my lawyer go especially since my lawyer was paid for by the state. My mom said well what if he doesn't pay child support? I told her God loves thoose girls more than I do and he will provide(I use to hate people to say that to me). I also explain that anything on paper was temporary. It doesn't matter. She left me alone after that. Things are not all great. My H has let the bank start foreclosure on the house because I didn't want ot sell it. This was before I turned it over to God. We may have to loose our home but I do keep praaying we won't. If we lose it I know it is because God has a better plan. My marriage is more important than this house. It took me a ling time to realize this. I have many other problems also, I just don't worry about them much anymore. God has provided for us so far and He will continue as long as I give it to Him. Yes this is hard to do but it is getting easier. I know there are those who thing I am crazy. I am not perfect and I mess up a lot. God can fix mistakes. He fixes mine all the time now. I am very thankful I am were I am today in faith. I would rather be crazy than unhappy.Crazy is a narrow road. If you would like to know how I got to this place let me know and I will share what got me here. It took help.<BR>gentle

gentle,<P>Funny you should say that about God not wanting me to be in a bad marriage. A few weeks/months ago I came to the conclusion that as much as I want my wife back, I really did not think either one of us were ready. We both needed/need time to grow-up. It has only been over the past couple weeks that I truly feel I am almost strong enough for her to come back. BUT, I don't really know what is going on in her life since she left (she has totally closed me out). I do know that she has a few things in her past that she needs to deal with - things that should have been addressed BEFORE we got married. Serious events and issues.<P>All I can pray is that she is using this time to heal, not only the wounds of our relationship, but of her past as well. I know my wife - I know the hurt she has had inside since I have met her. While I tried to help, I finally realized that it is up to her to heal herself - no one else can do that for her. I also truly believe that if/when she is able to heal her wounds, we could have a fantastic marriage. But it is now up to her.<P>I believe that even though it is the most painful time in both of our lives, God let this happen for a reason. Now all I need to do is be patient and let Him finish His work with both of us. Then and only then may the possibility exist for us to be together again.<P>Anything you can write that pertains to strengthening my faith, please do! Stories, whatever....<P>Mike

Mike,<P>You could be my husband writing about me a fewe years ago. I had so many issues from my <BR>past to deal with I was not good at any relationship. Not with my husband, children, mother, sisters, co-workers no one could handle me for long. I am not surprised my husband left. I am not taking all the blame he has his stuff also. I can only confess mine his is his. He didn't have as many of the childhood things but he did have them. The problem was I tried to make hime see he had them and that only cause him to focus on mine more. We played the blame game for a long time. I know God didn't want us together treating each other as we were doing.You are right, God is working in you and just keep praying that He works in your wife also. He wants you to ask Him to show faith in His healing power.I have got to go for now. Please go to this web site and read the testimonies. That is were my faith really began. <A HREF="http://www.restorem.org" TARGET=_blank>www.restorem.org</A> <P>gentle

TS,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>. The exit door was propped open from day one. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And I aslo gave him the choice and opportunity to leave when I revealed my one night stand. Yet he chose to stay. Although I admit I didn't cope well with my own anger, guilt, and remorse, he habitually punished my 'sin' and then enventually got himself involved in his own EA's and PA's. If this divorce is inevitable, I just wish he'd left when I told him, not now and two children later. (I know my kids was meant to be and are here for purpose however)<P>gentle,<P>I know that you are not judging me. It's just that all the scriptures you gave me I tried to hold on to them. I'm gonna really be honest on how I feel right now. I know that I love God, but I am afraid that I through all this, somewhere along the line I have made my stbx and marriage above even GOD. This scares me to death. I have also become so upset with God, I barely want to pray. WHy? I guess its because I feel that I'm not asking for a miracle, just for my family to be restored--somehting I thought was his will. I go through the ritual of praying with my two year old (and also my newborn)every night still however, but I don't feel what I pray, but I'm hoping that this will past, because somewhere inside I know that God is still my first love but right now I just feel so forsaken, so alone.<BR>Your words has helped, but in essence I really need to move on at this point regardless if we ever reconcile.<P>honey west<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>The serenity prayer is simple and powerful. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><BR>For me accepting the things that I can't change is the worst. I'm trying though...and also praying that God's will be done. You know I always say that this marriage is God's will, but I hope I'm discerning the voice of God from what I want myself. I'm always wandering what signs are from God and if he's waiting for me to get the point.<P>Mike,<BR> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>But what if our spouse's still refuse to see His will, then what? Well I don't think that "unconditional love" means that you can only love one person your whole life. If your spouse chooses to walk away, then so be it. That does not mean you need to chase their memory the rest of your life. In that case I strongly believe you need to listen to God's calling - You need to find out where He wants you to go in your life. For some, maybe that means being single, but for others God may have someone else in mind.<BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>If he doesn't line up with God's will(whatever that is), then it's on his hands not mine. If he leaves, I'll have no choice nut to eventually accep it, but I just think I'll fall into the single category. Don;t get me wrong, I don't think there is just one Mr. or mrs. right, I just think, at this point, I'd only be content with anyone else and not truly happy. But like honey west say, who knows what the future holds. I just got to re-learn how to trust God.<P><P>------------------<BR><B>Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change...Courage to change the things I can...And the wisdom to know the difference.</B><P>lady_divine77@yahoo.com