I am new here to D/D, but not to marriage builders. I have been here at marriage builders for a year now. I have gotten a lot of good advice and followed a lot of advice given. We have worked hard but the truth is, at this point, there is no feelings of love, trust, respect nothing... <P>i called a lawyer and since H and I are able to be friends he has advised me not to move out until I see him in person about rights and all of that jazz.<P>The hardest thing is dragging five kids over the coals for a divorce.... how many of you have children and how are they affected? <P>mercy

Do your kids know about the OP yet? If not, they will figure it out sooner or later. How long has it been since contact with the OM?<P>My two oldest kids want nothing to do with their father. One of them, the one who immediately figured out that he was having an affair as soon as he left, has not spoken to him in 2 years. They got along quite well before he left.<P>Except for the one who is too young to understand, the other 4 kids are heartbroken. When I told them that the judge had granted him a divorce, each of them burst into tears. They love their father, but two of them, especially, are terribly angry at him.<P>Most of the kids are adamant about the fact that they will never marry. Only one of the older ones is not - and she is convinced that men are superfluous in child-rearing. My son said that he would never marry, because he did not want to risk doing to his wife what my H did to me. <P>You say your H and you are friends. I assume then that there is no physical abuse. Why are you willing to destroy your family because of the way you "feel?"

mercy,<P>I don't know <B>all</B> of your story...<BR>What has happened since <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum31/HTML/001924.html" TARGET=_blank>Humbleness...recovery</A>?<BR>You've been brought down very far from this post.<P> <P>Jim

I have to re-iterate what Nellie has said. Although my husband and I are NOT divorcing (I just check some of the different forums now and again) my kids knew what was going on (he had a PA and an EA) and were despondant over the fighting and my 10 year old would wake up with nightmares crying about how 'daddy and mommy' will not be together, where she will live, etc. Broke my heart, let me tell ya. The major reason I wanted reconciliation was for those kids, now I realize that there are no obstacles between H and myself that are so terrible that we both cannot work through them, I love him very much. I have read some of your story, but not all, and I think you have a great husband, I'm sorry you don't see that and can't understand how devastating divorce really is to ALL involved. <P>There are those who are divorcing that didn't choose this path, they were thrust into it. My heart goes out to them, but for some reason I do think that you have some say so in the reconciliation. What have you TRULY done to try and repair the marriage?

Nellie,<P>my children are very young, 10, 9, 7 , 5 , 4, they really have no clue as to what is going on. I can see in their behavior that it is obvious distress in their lives. bickering, fighting, being mean, hateful. Thesse are things that have happened in our past lives.<P>The last contact was in November. He phoned me, we talked, i swore i never would.<P>NO no physical abuse and quite frankly no abuse anymore. But there was.... and i am not sure how to get past that. Loving my H to the fullest means being vulnerable and no thanks. I can't trust him to be stable without falling apart.<P>yes ofcourse friends. Getting divorced does not mean you can't be friends. but i do not want anything physical from him. nothing. there was some sexual abuse in our past marraige from him and i quite frankly just wish he wouldn't touch me. <P>I have a good husband, but not one i can appreiate due to our awful hateful past. He pushed me out the door... he stomped the love i had for him in the dirt everytime he tore me down, adn now that he decides to change i should love him?? am I angry?? <P>Hi jim... how are you??<BR>I think that we go through "honeymoon" phases. Times where things come out into the open and everyone feels hunky dory. But then as reality sets in, we see how things really are.<P>Our marriage was an awful one. abuse, mental, verbal, sexual! My heart is so scarred i truley do not feel i can love him the way he needs to be loved. Yes he loves me, yes he is a good man, no i can't open up my heart to him. What have i truly done to save my marriage?? EVERY DAMN THING I CAN THINK OF! WE can think of!! There just comes a point and time when you have to realize things are done. Period. and for the first time in my life, no man is involved in the way i feel. I had to give up my schooling at 17 due to pregnancy and no support..he ran off to college and avoided the situation(HE is my husband) adn now, i still have no support and am forced to quit college......do you have any idea how close i am to graduating?? MAY 2001!!! Why am i the one always to sacrafice everything?? Why is it now that he decides to change I should welcome him into open arms?? Is anything i want important?? well it never has been so why should it be now??<P>sorry....i am venting. <P>We have tried everything, we got counseling, we ask family to help with children so we can get some alone time, we have tried everything to heal this sexual wall between us, we have gone to God, to church, to anything and everything you can think of. We have followed MB principals, there is just no love there from my side. does he love me?? yes. I would never doubt that.<P>I dont know if any of you have ever lived in prison?? I have not been to a correctional facility, but, i do live in prison. i am not allowed to go anywhere.....NO WHERE. and that was before the affair. And only after i tell him i am getting a divorce because i am tired of the prison he has built around me, he says i can do things?? WHO THE HELL IS HE TO DETERMINE WHO AND HOW AND WHERE I CAN GO?? not my father last i looked.<P>see, it is not what I have done to my marriage, it is what WE have done to it. <P>mercy

Mercy,<P> I'm sorry but I'm going to have to jump in here, just glad I'm a good 1,000 miles away. <P> First let me remind you of what we talked about the other day. I asked you how you feel about your husband if you got rid of the anger and you replied that you thought you might be able to love him.<P> Next, let me point out that like my shrink keeps BEATING into my head -- a person that is depressed filters out the good and focuses on the negative. My shrink has really been pushing me to waiting until my wife is not depressed before making up my mind on the future of our marriage. Mercy, you have started to take steps to improve your state of mind. You have<P>1) Started taking Meds<BR>2) Taken a trip reguardless of what he said<BR>3) Gone out because you wanted to<P> Mercy, Give the meds some time to kick in. Right now I see the same thing in you I see in my wife. You both filter what you see and focus more on the negative. Also, stick up for yourself. You have expressed to me many times your need to "be freed" from your prison. In the past month you have been taking what you need. Continue to take what you need and your husband will adjust if he truely loves you. Do not bend or compromise yourself. As far as meeting your husbands needs, he'll get over it if he does love you. He will just have to wait for you to come back around. DON'T BEAT YOURSELF UP FOR HOW YOU CURRENTLY FEEL!!!!!! It took a long time to create this problem it will take a long time to fix it. Take care of yourself, Treat yourself as the most important person in your life. Above all be patience and be careful of jumping into something you may later regret. I keep getting many stories about how after a relationship breaks up and the depression lifts people regret their actions. <P> You know what you need in your life so take control of it and go for what is important to you. STOP BENDING OVER to meet the needs of your husband it is only tearing you and your feelings apart. Remember if your husband does love you and I truely believe he does he'll adjust to meet you needs BUT you most stick up for yourself in order to push him in the direction. <P>Take Care<BR>Joe

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mercy:<BR><B>Loving my H to the fullest means being vulnerable and no thanks. I can't trust him to be stable without falling apart.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Even if you start afresh with someone new, the trust issues are going to be there. As you say, loving "to the fullest means being vulnerable". Loving is a risky business. Pain is virtually guaranteed, one way or another. But is the alternative of a fearful, hardened, lonely existence preferable?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Our marriage was an awful one. abuse, mental, verbal, sexual! My heart is so scarred i truley do not feel i can love him the way he needs to be loved. Yes he loves me, yes he is a good man, no i can't open up my heart to him.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I don't mean to trivialize the scarring of your heart, which is no doubt very real, but there is a big difference between accidental injury and malicious injury. I don't know your story, but if your husband "is a good man" and was able to <I>stop</I> being abusive, I have to wonder how much of the "abuse" in your marriage was the result of confusion, misunderstanding, and thoughtlessness as opposed to a "hateful" exercise of power. If that was the case, then over time it should be possible to recast your memory of your past in a more empathetic light.<P>You should not be concerned with whether you are able to love your husband "the way he needs to be loved." That is <I>his</I> concern, and you have no right to make that judgement on his behalf.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>There just comes a point and time when you have to realize things are done. Period.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>No, there does <I>not</I> come a point when you have to "realize" that "things" are done. You make <I>choices</I>, and you are <I>responsible</I> for the choices you make.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I had to give up my schooling at 17 due to pregnancy and no support..he ran off to college and avoided the situation(HE is my husband) adn now, i still have no support and am forced to quit college......do you have any idea how close i am to graduating?? MAY 2001!!! Why am i the one always to sacrafice everything?? Why is it now that he decides to change I should welcome him into open arms?? Is anything i want important?? well it never has been so why should it be now??</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm really confused about all this. Again, I don't know your story, but let me see if I can puzzle this out...<P>Your husband "avoided" the situation of your pregnancy by "running off" to college. And then he <I>came back</I> and married you, where he then took on the responsibility for the support of you and your child? Presumably at a higher financial level due to his college education? And more recently he has been helping to support you through college yourself? But though you are close to graduating you are going to have to drop out because you have decided it is more important to divorce your husband? And this is his fault?<P>I'm sure I'm missing some important facts here, and I apologize if I've badly misinterpreted matters, but I really don't know what else to make of this. If what you wanted never mattered, how is it that you were able to go back to school at all?<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>Getting divorced does not mean you can't be friends. but i do not want anything physical from him. nothing. there was some sexual abuse in our past marraige from him and i quite frankly just wish he wouldn't touch me.<P>We have tried everything, we got counseling, we ask family to help with children so we can get some alone time, we have tried everything to heal this sexual wall between us, we have gone to God, to church, to anything and everything you can think of. We have followed MB principals, there is just no love there from my side. does he love me?? yes. I would never doubt that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again, I don't know your story, but it sounds to me like things are <I>way</I> too early for renewing sexual relations. You need to concentrating on getting your love back first. If you've been trying to put the cart before the horse, it's no wonder you haven't been able to make progress.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>I dont know if any of you have ever lived in prison?? I have not been to a correctional facility, but, i do live in prison. i am not allowed to go anywhere.....NO WHERE. and that was before the affair. And only after i tell him i am getting a divorce because i am tired of the prison he has built around me, he says i can do things?? WHO THE HELL IS HE TO DETERMINE WHO AND HOW AND WHERE I CAN GO?? not my father last i looked.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm still confused. <I>Why</I> weren't you allowed to go anywhere? And how did you manage to get in most of a college degree program if you couldn't go anywhere?<P>Your husband may have been excessively controlling (I'm just guessing here), but as I understand it, <I>you</I> were the one who had the affair. To restore trust, it is not unreasonable to have your freedom somewhat circumscribed. Who is your husband? A betrayed spouse, I believe. If he is now softening enough to "allow" you more freedom in spite of his mistrust, I think you should take that as a positive sign, not as a reason for further resentment.<P>I'm sorry if I'm coming off a bit harsh. I really shouldn't pipe up without knowing more, especially since I'm probably overly sensitive to accusations of controlling behavior and abuse, and thus perhaps prone to indulging in a bit of transference...<BR>

nope you dont know my story, and you do not know me. Yes i had the affair and assuming from your tone, you didn't???<P>i can see if you are the betrayer, there is no help what so ever and sorry to have taked up your time.<P>

Mercy,<P>I DO know your story or at least as much as you have posted here. If I am not mistaken I was one of the first to post to you when you came to MB.<P>While "D'plume" may be a little off base, he has asked some very important questions of you. Answers to which you and people here need to know before any real help can be offered.<P>While you may not admit it now, I suspect that you are here for help. So I have a question for you. <P>How may we help you Mercy?<P>You are obviously very hurt and very angry. I suspect you are also very sorry for your affair and its renewal. <P>So the question remains: How can we help you? Do you want us to help remove some of the pain, by letting your vent and talking with you? No problem. <P>So think about it. What would help you right now?<P>God Bless,<P>JL

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mercy:<BR><B>We have tried everything, we got counseling, we ask family to help with children so we can get some alone time, we have tried everything to heal this sexual wall between us, we have gone to God, to church, to anything and everything you can think of. We have followed MB principals, there is just no love there from my side. does he love me?? yes. I would never doubt that.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Let your habits lead your feelings. Act as if you love him, and ask of him only that he hold off on making physical advances until you tell him you're ready. <P>You need to learn to shake off your past some, he needs to learn how to remember it and not repeat it.<P>Before you decide that he's holding you back from going someplace, ask yourself why you want to go and whether that's an appropriate place to be, given your status as a married and supposedly loving wife and mother. I have the <I>right</I> to go a lot of places you won't find me ... because I'm in a committed relationship with my GF, not because she forbids it (although the places I'm thinking of now would, I'm sure, be hurtful to her if I went there--especially without her). <P>

Mercy.....Please slow down a bit. I won't attack you. I too was the betrayer. I went through a divorce, I lived as a single parent raising my two kids and I re-married so now I'm a second wife and a step mom. So, I've taken the steps that you have already taken and I've taken the steps you will and might take if you divorce. I do want to tell you that I have seen people on these boards that beg for a marriage that I think they need to give up on and I've seen people attack those that don't agree with their opinion. But, the majority have been giving you very good advice. Even if you are the one that wants a divorce the pain is very real and so is the fear. Very often while your in that situation you make wrong choices because of your emotions. You can also be very quick to jump down the thoats of those that don't tell you what you want to hear. I know, I've been there. Each parent and child going through divorce handles it differently and how they come out of it largely depends on some of the circumstances. I don't know yours. I have my opinions but I too back off sometimes from posting them on these boards. Regardless, if you go through with this divorce you will feel a tremendous amount of pain and guilt and in the end it all comes down to one word...."money", and that my friend, is the word that causes a "friendly" divorce to turn bitter. Just because your husband is a good father now does not mean he will be in the future. This board is filled with remarks about parents that use to be involved and loving abandoning their children once they move on in their life. So you must also understand that there is a possibility that you'll be raising your kids 100% of the time alone. With divorce, you can't take one step at a time. You need to look at the entire picture. Do you want to devote yourself to your child only and save the dating for when they grow up? Or, do you plan to date and maybe marry again someday? Step families, blended families etc...are tough and the more kids you have the tougher they can be. All them little personalities trying to blend together. Anyhow, I think you need to really ask yourself if your marriage is bad enough to take the risk of what your future may hold for you and your children.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by mercy:<BR><B>i.... how many of you have children and how are they affected? <P>mercy</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I answered this question, wasn't this the original question on this post? Also, I've read much on this board, although I don't post responses often, because much of what I believe and has worked for my own marriage does not 'fall in line' with MB principles. I completely agree with the Plan A and Plan B principles, when two people are committed to making the marriage work.<P>I have seen betrayers here that are working for their marriages and respect them very much. Every single one of us have made mistakes, betrayed or betrayers, I don't see this board as attacking anyone. But you have come across in every post I have seen you write as angry, and feeling as if your husband put too many reigns on you, I would think this is because he is insecure because of your betrayal. I don't know your whole situation, but I remember reading awhile ago about it, and you never mentioned where he was abusive (I may have missed this). I have to say that anger comes across very loudly in your posts that you write, and all we know is what you write. I feel strongly about the children that are indirectly involved in all of this, and feel very sorry that your children will have to be thrust into this situation.<BR>

Hi mercy--<P>I am not divorced or divorcing, but stopped bcs I saw your name & wanted to respond since I remembered some of your old posts. I am sorry that you are to the point of considering divorce...I do hope that you will be careful here & be sure you have exhausted all avenues, done whatever you can to avoid it, esp. with 5 kids involved.<P>I do not know many kids involved in divorce. As a cub scout leader, I had 1 boy in my den of 8 who's folks had divorced and as a Girl Scout leader now I have 1 girl of 12 who's folks are divorced. It may or may not be a coincidence, but in both cases, that is the child who acts out & tries to test limits and grab attention continually. OTOH, my older brother divorced when his son was 1, and that son has done beautifully (now in law school, so many years have passed). <P>I think a lot of how the kids do is based upon the degree of security the adults provide--emotional security primarily, but also in the sense of financial and physical support. My brother was always there and always co-parented his son (altho I think his commitment to his son did cost him a couple of relationships with girlfriends).<P>Anyway, I hope you are able to work things out withing the marriage, but whatever you decide, I wish you luck. <BR>Kathi

mercy, I'm very sorry if I appear to have attacked you, and even more so if I was all harm and no help. Re-reading my post, even <I>I</I> can see that I didn't word it very sensitively. I came across as judgmental, and I sincerely apologize for that.<P>I <I>do</I> consider myself to be a "betrayed" spouse, although I do not believe me wife had an affair. She "simply" left me, without explanation, and since then she has filed court documents that appear designed to cast me in the role of an abuser. In particular, my wife repeatedly claimed that I was excessively controlling. Since I <I>know</I> that there is no way anyone could have been more supportive of my wife's desires and goals than I was, and everyone who knows her knows that she had complete freedom to do whatever she wanted to do, I am very sensitive to the damage caused by allowing one's feelings to "refute" the facts. In my struggle to understand what may have led my wife to feel the way she did, I have also become acutely aware of the power one's perspective has on one's feelings.<P>I don't know what happened in your life, mercy, and I am not accusing you of anything. In particular, I am not accusing you of getting the facts wrong. I am merely trying to suggest that the sketchy facts as you presented them <I>might</I> support a very different perspective than the one you have.<P>Since one's perspective is under one's conscious control, you can <I>choose</I> to change it. And changing it can make an <I>enormous</I> difference.<BR>

All,<P> Let me start by saying I do know Mercy and her husband thru email and phone calls. Both Mercy and my wife did not choose to have an affair but found themselves in something they really didn't want. They had been driven to this point by her husband and me. True, they may have choosen which door to open but neither me nor Mercy's husband was doing anything to stop them. <P> I failed my wife and Mercy's husband failed her. Both wife's want to sincerely rebuild there marriage but have to deal with the problems which brought about the affair in the first place. Both are suffering for guilty, anxiety, depression because of there actions. How can anyone on this web site forget the fact that women would much rather have there marriages work then to have gotten to the point of looking elsewhere. <P> I think if we are to help Mercy we need to help her get over the past and to help her rebuild a new relationship which she TRUELY wants. I can tell you this and that is Mercy has done a hell of a lot of bending in an effort to rebuild her marriage. Not to say her husband hasn't but the problems of the past are in the way of building a new future.<P> Let's help her instead of blasting her and others who have betrayed!<P>For one who has been betrayed<BR>Joe

Mercy,<P>I have a 6 year old daughter, and our separation has been very painful for her. Children often blame themselves, or feel frightened because of the threat to their sense of security. They also fear they will be abandoned. Frequently, children feel the need to side with one parent against the other, which is a very harmful thing for the child. <P>The best thing you can do is explain to them simly what is happening (your divorce) in age appropriate language. Don't put any blame on your H, (even if it is his fault). Blaming doesn't help you and it harms the kids. You may have to bight your tongue real hard, but it's for the best.<P>I enrolled my daughter in a workshop for children run by a family services agency in my town to help kids adjust to divorce. It's been great! She really likes it and I can see the improvement. Find out if there is such a program in your area, and if possible put your kids in it.<P>Good luck and God bless.