we're not divorced or even talking about it right now but i feel it's inevitable. <P> he's not the person he was when we married and apparently he never was. he tried to be what he thought i wanted and now he doesn't want to do that anymore. i don't blame him. <P>the problem is that i can't see myself spending the rest of my life with the person he now wants to be. we have completely different goals. i'm vegetarian and now he doesn't want to be. i have concerns for the environment and he seems to resist anything remotely "natural" and/or environmentally safe. he doesn't really seem to have any concern for his health either.<P>it's like a super religious person marrying an atheist.<P>i can't give up my ideals for him and i can't expect him to change for me. we're miserable.<P>anyone with a similar experience?

Let me get this straight. You're claiming that you're coming apart over vegetarianism and the environment. You say it's like a super-religious person being involved with an atheist.<P>WHY HAVE YOU ALLOWED YOUR ENVIRONMENTAL VIEWS TO BECOME YOUR RELIGION?!?!?!<P>Someone has been tampering with your mind. I don't expect you to be wolfing down red meat at the Outback Steakhouse every night, nor flinging soda cans on the shoulder of the road, but it sounds like you both need to move toward an Aristotelian Mean (OK, that's too hifalutin'--think Goldilocks and the Three Bears). <P>You and he need to follow the Policy of Joint Agreement. <P>And you need to realize that about 69% of the differences in marriage are <I>unsolvable</I>--but do not <I>doom</I> the marriage if spouses can respect each other's differences.<P>This site, Harley's books, and the works of John Gottman will give you a lot of understanding. Don't give up, don't think less of your husband, but do learn about what you and he can do to make your marriage better.

Dinah<BR>I would have to agree with Sisyphus. What you have shared with us here does not lend itself to divorce. There must be other things...many of us have weathered differences like this...hell my H used to reject anything aside from denium and plaid shirts, now if it isn't Armani forget it...things like that do matter, but there is somthing deeper that is driving both (?) of your non willingness to accept the other for who you have become or are in the process of becoming. It isn't about meat or the environment...it is about the two of you. <BR>So what's really going on here? until you can really analyze that, it would be unfortunate for you to walk away from a marriage.<BR>Have you spoken to your H about how you feel? Is there dialogue?

okay, the first response was a little harsh i think. it IS like religion which is NOT a BAD thing. it is my belief system. i believe in taking care of my body and respecting the earth. my husband does not respect that (therein lies the problem). i don't want to use chemicals on the yard (one current example). that frightens me AND we have a young child. <P>i've discussed this numerous times. i don't feel able to move forward in life when he thinks all my beliefs are silly.<P>when we married he was vegetarian and respected my beliefs now he says he never wanted to be that way. he feels held back and so do i.<P>so, i know i need to re-read the book again. <P>please use kind words in response. i'm not angry with my husband i'm saddened that i feel such disrespect and i feel betrayed. he pretended to be something he wasn't. i never would have DATED him (let alone marry him) had i known he didn't want to be vegetarian or care about the environment.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dinah:<BR><B>okay, the first response was a little harsh i think. it IS like religion which is NOT a BAD thing.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Sorry to have been harsh. <P>Religion is about your immortal soul. Environmentalism and vegetarianism are not. Therefore, it is important to draw the distinction that environmentalism is of lesser importance than religion. That's not to dismiss it, but you simply need to recognize that if religion isn't worth breaking up a marriage over (and many agree that it isn't), then environmentalism <I>a fortiori</I> is not worth breaking up a marriage over. <P>The issue is respecting each others' beliefs. That's a matter for the Policy of Joint Agreement. A lack of respect <I>is</I> something that marriages break up over. If you're not getting respect, odds are you're also not giving it. You two need to reboot your dialogue. <P>If you have a problem with chemicals on the yard, you and he need to work on the Policy of Joint Agreement. Some chemicals are less benign than others. If you have solid research in your corner, you should lay out the facts. If your neighborhood has a uniform look to its lawns, you need to take into consideration that some pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers may be necessary to get that. If you want to do differently, you may need to move. <P>No life is going to be entirely free of exposure to these items. Your goal should never be to live in a world free of challenges to your immune system. It can't happen. There are molds and mildews, insect-borne diseases, and all sorts of nasties out there--most of which are kept at bay by technology (read: chemicals of one sort or another). <P>As to food ... I can't stand the sight or smell of tuna. My GF restricts it to her own lunch, not in my presence. She doesn't eat red meat due to her digestion, but it doesn't bother her at all to see me do it. I don't try to force it down her throat. You two need to make accomodations like this. <P>If your husband tried to change for you, then take it as a compliment. If he wasn't able to hold on to the changes, that's no reason to be harsh to him. You two chose one another for better or worse. If this is the biggest problem in your lives, you're doing pretty darn well. Learn to deal with one another on this, and some of the other biggies may never come up.

Hi Dinah,<P>Too harsh, aw come on. These are a great bunch of folks that are responding to you. Posts abound with differing views and opinions, but most of these people are pretty good at disagreeing without being disagreable.<P>I love it when someone puts out a post that clashes with my thinking. If I just wanted nicey - nicey that agreed with me, why I could write all that by myself. This world would be a pretty boring place if we all agreed with each other! We would never get anything done.<P>The differing views and even the different ways the members express themselves are a gift, not a threat. They are usually pretty supportive, and they show a bunch of different insights. Sooner or later, somebody is going to post the thing that is going to do the trick for you.<P>Regarding your first post, please, we already have enough broken marriages. Make that the last resort, not the first. Maybe if you try reading some of Dr. Harley's columns you'll pick up some tools that will be helpful. Your baby needs a mother and a father, even if they have flaws.<P>So here's a big hug, and keep coming back!<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{{Dinah}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P>Bumper

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dinah:<BR><B>it IS like religion which is NOT a BAD thing. it is my belief system.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Maybe I'm too limited by my own world view, but I have a hard time seeing vegetarianism and environmental consciousness as equivalent to religion. It's the difference between a <I>value</I> system and a <I>belief</I> system.<P>But perhaps this distinction is academic, since both are important.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>i believe in taking care of my body and respecting the earth. my husband does not respect that (therein lies the problem).</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I'm a little unclear on this. Is it that your husband does not respect <I>your</I> beliefs, or is it just that he does not share them. It is quite possible to respectfully disagree (and in fact if it weren't possible then no two people could ever respect each other).<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>i don't want to use chemicals on the yard (one current example). that frightens me AND we have a young child.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Every marriage requires compromise. I don't have any way of knowing who's being more recalcitrant here. For example, some chemicals are environmentally friendly, and some are not. If you refuse to allow the use of <I>any</I> chemicals, then I can see where your husband would think you are being unreasonably stubborn. If your husband insists on using any chemical he wants for any reason, then I can see where you would think your husband is being unreasonably stubborn. <P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>i've discussed this numerous times. i don't feel able to move forward in life when he thinks all my beliefs are silly.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Again we get to the point about respectful disagreement. If your husband is actually calling your beliefs "silly", that's a disrespectful judgement. If you just <I>feel</I> that your husband thinks your beliefs are silly because he doesn't agree with them, then that's another matter. Either way, you should probably try to have a talk with him about the difference between disagreement and disrespect.<P>Assuming that you are both willing to compromise in your behavior, I don't see how your husband's opinions about the validity of your beliefs can prevent you from "moving forward in life". It's <I>nice</I> to have our beliefs validated, but what's important is that you validate <I>one another</I>, not one another's beliefs.<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><B>i'm not angry with my husband i'm saddened that i feel such disrespect and i feel betrayed. he pretended to be something he wasn't. i never would have DATED him (let alone marry him) had i known he didn't want to be vegetarian or care about the environment.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Did he <I>pretend</I> to be something he wasn't, or did he <I>try</I> to be something he wasn't? And is it that he doesn't care about the environment, or that he doesn't care as much as <I>you</I> do?<P>The disrespect issue may cut both ways.<BR>

Dinah,<P>You wrote that your husband doesn't respect your views on vegitarianism or the environment. Ok, if that's true, then it's a shame.<P>But ask yourself: do you respect his views? If not, then why do you expect him to respect yours?<P>You may not agree with his views, but do you respect his right to hold his own views?<P>I used to be a vegitarian. Now I am not. I was not pretending to be anything I was not, nor did I betray anyone. I just changed my mind about what I would do with my own body.<BR> <BR>I don't think vegitarianism is a belief system in and of itself, but it might be part of a larger belief system or religion. The same would be true of environmentalism. What does the totality of your belief system tell you about respecting other people, as well as your body and the environment?<P>About the lawn: try asking what it is that concerns him about the lawn, and why he wants to use chemicals on it. Learn exactly which chemicals he wants to use; not all chemicals are dangerous. For example, H20, otherwise known as water, is a chemical. If he wants to use a fertilizer, there are natural sources which are excellent for lawns. If he wants to use a weed killer, there are good and bad ones. Some are based on plant enzymes which are completely non-toxic to animal life, including children. If he wants to use insecticides, well, to be honest, almost all of those are harmful, with the exception of diotomacious earth and insecticidal soap. Those two are non-toxic to people, but can be an irritant.<P>Finally, if you want to be "super-religious" about your beliefs, go ahead. You have a right. But don't be feel betrayed by people who don't share your views. They have a right, too. And don't be surprised if your too rigid views isolate you from more and more people.

Hi Dinah,<P>I have another question for you - if you decide that you absolutely have to have it all your way and won't find room to compromise, what's gonna happen?<P>A divorce. You have a child. That child is as much his as yours. You cannot keep that child from his/her dad. After you split up, he will most likely acquire his own home in the future and will probably use chemicals on that lawn and you can't stop him from having his child there. He will probably eat red meat at his home, and you cannot stop him from feeding it to his child. So you have all the same problems, only in two separate households.<P>It seems to me that working together in a respectful way in the same household is a much better solution than having a constant war between two different households, because on top of your differences, you can usually add a touch of hatred after a divorce happens, whether you like it or not it often happens that way.<P>There is much more to think about than just your issue that he doesn't agree with you. I don't happen to think WHAT the issues are matters. I believe you need to find a counselor who can help you work this out first before you jump. Disagreements can be worked out, and the outcome would be much better that way than getting a divorce.<P><BR>------------------<P>Kathy<P>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited February 16, 2001).]<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited February 16, 2001).]

Hi Dinah,<P>I have to say I pretty much agree with most of what's already been said.<P>However....I don't really think it's so much about the chemicals, the environment or being a vegan. You let slip something that gave me a clue....<P><B>...he thinks all my beliefs are silly.</B><P>So to me, it all boils down to that and how you feel about that. And of course, there could be more stuff that's going on. But that's a BIG one to me, because that's all about respect.<P>I would suggest counseling and addressing that specific issue. And you have to ask yourself the questions.....can you respect him for his beliefs/actions? Does he have to have your beliefs for you to respect him? <P>I know where you're coming from as my H did something similar....he came into our marriage with a somewhat different belief system than I, but didn't tell me he still held these beliefs. I dated him for more than a year and as far as I knew at the time, we basically believed and held the same moral values. <P>However, 12 years later, after being separated from him for over a year and him living with the OW, he just yesterday said, "I guess I was trying to believe and value the things you valued because I loved you and you seemed so stable and happy." (He has a not good childhood and mine was pretty good.) It kinda blew me away! It certainly helps explain what happened to him over the past years....he wasn't happy and kept stuffing those feelings. <P>The only regret I have is that the things we believe differently on COULD have been addressed in counseling, had he communicated them. But he didn't. And instead he let them boil inside until he reached a point of "desparation" and then it all blew up....drinking, the affair, moving out, etc. <P>Please at least TRY! If I was at the place you are now, I would try with all my heart to put the "Policy of Joint Agreement" into effect as well as the other principles I found on this site. I really do believe that they will work....but it takes two willing partners.<P>My thoughts are with you.<BR>Aloha,<BR>Mrs.O<P>

the last reply REALLY helped me. thank you. <P>yes, he thinks my beliefs are silly and that's the real issue. it doesn't matter what the beliefs/values are it's that he thinks i'm nuts (though my thoughts have not changed since we married). when i start to speak about something i'm concerned about he cringes and looks as if he'd like to stick his fingers in his ears and go "la la la la - i can't hear you ".<P>about the chemicals on the yard (by chemicals i mean non toxic stuff - not to get so technical about it) he is truely fine with non toxic things but it's that he resists anything that i might want to do simply because it's something that i want. his taker is really really rearing it's ugly head. i ask nicely "honey, do you think it would be okay if we try something not so harmful on the yard? it really concerns me to use ___ . i'd like to try something else that is more environmentally friendly." <P>he has repressed all the things that have bothered him over the last couple of years and now they are exploding in our face. i told him long before we married that if he had a problem with something i said or did to PLEASE say something because if he didn't i couldn't fix it and he would wind up resenting me. well, he kept his mouth shut and now he's grown to HATE all of the things that started out as just a slight annoyance.<P>the problems do go a lot deeper than the original one i mentioned it's just the one that causes the most stress for us (on a daily basis).<P>i was hoping to hear from someone like the last person who responded. someone to say "hey, been there done that and it's going to be okay if you really want it to work".<P>i have asked him also repeatedly to tell me what he needs in this marriage and all he can say is "i don't know". <P>at this point i'm afraid to ask him to please get me a glass of water (daughter is teething and has been falling asleep in my lap) because i know he's rolling his eyes at me in his head. i asked him to turn down the lights for her to fall asleep the other night and he slamed the light switch.<P>so as you can see things are not good.<P>he's becoming so rude i'm embarrased by him. he's not only like that to me but to my father and his co-workers too. i feel like it's my fault. that if i could make him happy he wouldn't be such an [censored] all the time.<P>neither of us want a divorce. we want to raise our child together and eventually have another.<P>can i fix this by myself????<P>um... i know this is choppy but i'm not the best writer. i'm more of a talker. when i'm writing my thoughts get all mixed up and out of order.<P>thank you - everyone - for your responses. <P>

Dinah, <P>Hubby's rude and demeaning behavior may be more than just dissatisfaction with the marriage. Or not. The "more than" I'm specifically thinking of is depression, which can manifest as angry outbursts and being generally crabby. Don't let him walk around with an undiagnosed killer like that if you have even a smidgen of a suspicion.<P>But you may also want to look into counseling with the Harleys (see the button at the top of the window, under the "S"), or pairs.com, retrouvaille.org, or a gottman.com workshop (you just missed one in Seattle--I was actually connecting in Denver <I>en route</I> from and to Miami in order to get there and back--almost didn't get out of Denver Airport last Thursday due to the combined effects of a snowstorm and mechanical problems with a P.O.S. 757).

he's not depressed. i'm sure of that. he's just so frustrated with me that it has overflowed into his relationships with other people. i guess i could blame some of it on his boss who is just about the biggest pain in the [censored] he's ever had to deal with. but mostly it's my fault.<P>i can truely identify the beginning of the problems. he started sitting in the rocking chair instead of with me on the sofa. then he quit a job without knowing he had another (turned out he didn't have the other so he was out of a job all together). then i slacked on meeting some of his needs (sex was probably the first). then he changed his style and i didn't change mine so i now don't fulfill his attracive spouce need (i feel completely uncomfortable dressing the way he wants me to - i've always been very picky about my style). and on and on. now everything drives us crazy. we don't fight a lot we just bicker about stupid stuff and he rolls his eyes at me (which i have told him a thousand times makes me feel like **** - he has gotten a little better about it now that i think about it). <BR>

Dinah, how do you know your husband's not depressed? He's quit his job, he's changed his "style", he's "frustrated" and irritable about little things for no apparent reason, and you're <I>sure</I> the root of his problem is frustration with <I>you</I>?<P>You say he kept his mouth shut instead of telling you if he had a problem with something you said or did, but I'd almost be willing to bet that in at least some cases he kept his mouth shut because <I>he didn't know</I>. It's looking to me like he doesn't know what he wants and he doesn't know what he needs, and so in growing frustration he keeps trying something different. <P>You say you can identify the beginning of the "problems" but I think all you've done is identify the beginning of the <I>symptoms</I>.<P>I strongly recommend that you try to get your husband into <I>some</I> sort of counseling, either with or without you.<BR>

i'm really really sure he's not depressed. the job thing was a while ago. he has a great job now (though his boss is a pain). he changed his style because of his job essentially (exhibit design). he went from "coo" to "preppy".

umm that's "cool" to "preppy". if it's not j.crew it's no good. living on one income that makes things hard. <P>the moving to the sofa thing was also a very long time ago and i think that really affected me. he said his back hurt but i didn't really believe it hurt enough to stop sitting next to me. he never complained of a back ache (he complains about those kinds of things) so i felt rejected. i told him that but "my back hurts" was all he cared about. that hurt me. <P>we used to gossip about the way his brother sat in the rocker while his preg. wife sat alone. we used to tell him how crummy that was. then when that became us - well i think you get it. i don't think it was a symptom of anything because we were doing GREAT at that point. his back hurt - that's all. he didn't fulfill my need for affection and then later it began to snowball - especially after having a child.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dinah:<BR><B>his back hurt</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>One of Howard Stern's two books has a good section about what back pains mean in men. It's a physical way of having a psychological breakdown, and a shrink cured him of it.<P>

I almost hate to post but so much of what you're writing is so familiar. My H did all those things, exactly the same. He was rude and ignorant to me, would even start fights outside in front of the neighbors, cursing me out. I even had a chair incident, except it was at church where my kids were sitting between us and when they left for children's church, he didn't scoot in to close the gap. I've come a long way since then, and found out what was happening while he was behaving this way towards me was that he was involved in affairs behind my back. I had the same thing, the same attitudes being displayed towards me, everything. I could pinpoint almost right when it started, and now I know because I "discovered" a lot more than just his recent affair.<P>I don't mean to scare you because my world isn't yours, but don't let it go and GET some help before it's too late. I think it is so much more than those two issues of yours, and I really hope you both can do something to work on this. Take care.<P>------------------<P>Kathy<p>[This message has been edited by weirded out (edited February 18, 2001).]

Hi Dinah,<P> I can relate, to a point. My bf is Agnostic. I am well I think I'm a Deist. Agnostic means someone who doesn't believe in God, but doesn't *not* believe either...at least, that's how my bf explained it to me. Personally, I call it sitting on the fence, but don't tell him I said that, lol.<P> I believe in God, and I feel that He put us on earth and said, "Goeth for it." I believe that He put the dinos on earth too...maybe He thought better of that particular tribe and figured we wouldn't stand a chance against old Rex.<P> So, here we are. One sitting on the fence and the other who believes in God. We had huge arguments about this. I was very unfair and demanded that he change his view. Uh-oh...mistake. <P> I have since learned to appreciate his views and not judge him by his beliefs, just because they are different from mine. I was very disrespectful to him about this. <P> One of the things we did was to print out the Emotional Needs and LoveBusters Questionarres from this site. Then we took a couple of days to fill them out. We set a date to take time to discuss them. And we did. We discovered a lot about ourselves and each other, thanks to those questions. I would recommend that you and your H do the same.<P> You must learn about the Policy of Joint Agreement. Marriage is about compromise, not changing each other.<P> I agree with what the others had to say. But, I wanted you to see that a couple can exist together, if they are willing to accept each others' differences, without being disrespectful. My bf and I are in a much better place, now that I have learned to respect his views and he , mine. It took a lot of *talking*, but we did it.<P> I don't think your husband was hiding his "true" self from you. Most likely he just rethought his outlook on those issues. It is not a crime. <P> BTW, you said you have a baby... believe me, feeling get very heated at this time in coupledom. Try to calm down about these issues. They are not life-threatening. He could do much worse, you know?<P> My thoughts are with you. Hang in there... don't blow your marriage over your husband's preferences. Learn to bend. <P>~~Mynabird

Hi Dinah,<P>I think your comments about your H's change of style are more revealing than you realize. It seems to me he is putting a lot of importance on a very, very superficial thing: clothing style. You wrote that he has a great job but that he is frustrated, unhappy and unsatisfied. And that he has outbursts of anger and resentment. <P>That sounds very familiar to me: he is depressed. Remember, depression isn't always caused by external events or situations. Usually, it's biochemical, or related the whole mid-life crisis thing. People who are stuck in depression often think it's the things in their life that are bothering them, and by changing them (whether it's his style, his job, or his wife) it will make him feel better. Well, it doesn't make them feel better. <P>In fact, the problems on the job, or at home, or his disatisfaction in himself are actually caused by his depression, and not the other way around.<P>You started by saying it was vegetarianism vs meat eating that was the problem. Then you dug deeper and saw that it was the lack of respect and kindness. I think your on the right track, but you need to dig a little deeper, and maybe step back a bit and take a wider view.<P>A final comment: you blamed yourself, that it was your fault he is mad at you because of something you said or did some time ago. It's time you dropped that guilt. It isn't your fault. We all make mistakes, but if you are truly sorry and asked him to forgive you, as I'm sure you have, then he ought to forgive and move on. Obviously, he is using this incident as an excuse to be harsh with you. It's his cop-out. <P>I lived with depressed angy wife for years. I believed it was my "job" to make her happy. I never could, because it just isn't possible to "make" someone happy if they are chronically depressed. But She came to believe it was my job, too. And when I "failed" to make her happy, she figured it was my fault she was depressed. Now we are divorced without ever really trying to work at the real issues. Please don't let that happen to your family. <P>Good luck.