Peppermint,<P>Do these words sound familiar?<P>"One thing that really bothers me is that your bitterness and anger are so totally overwhelming that there is no doubt it affects your children. You aren't even just angry at your<BR>exhusband, but at everyone who doesn't handle infidelity just as you have. That is unfair."<P>In one sentence you said that her anger is inappropriate, and then followed up with telling her what to do with it. Unlike some people, I WILL NOT APOLOGIZE or feel ashamed of my thoughts about divorce. <P>You can join the crowd of "it just didn't work out" people. Be my guest. There are plenty of threads you can join in with people who feel ever so blessed by this event.<P>However, until you have six kids to support all on your own and have to deal with someone like her ex, then get the hell off of Nellie's back.

I do admire your moral standards, Nellie. And, I do believe in the truth.<P>But, at some point, you do have to accept that something terribly wrong has happened, that you cannot change it, and that you must learn to rebuild a happy life in spite of it. Not, be happy that you are divorced, but find joy in life despite the terrible loss you and your family have suffered. If not for your sake, for your children's sake. I've seen at close range what happens to children who's parents harbor such bitterness and anger, and it twists their souls. <P>I know you have a difficult row ahead of you, and I am so sorry--<P>

TS,<P>And until you have actually been a parent and/or a child who has actually been damaged by a parent who wanted to use "honesty" to their own advantage, get off of mine.<P>Also, no special need to use profanity as I can understand words with more than four letters.<P>Peppermint

I don't know if I am understanding everyone's point of view completely, but I wanted to reply anyway.<P>Nellie, I appreciate the discussions you bring up. The issues you are thinking about are definately where my thoughts are right now.<P>Seems we have similar H's, although I am at a different juncture in that I am the one initiating the D.<P>But on to the truth. I've struggled with that one, simply because I do not know WHAT it is. My oldest is a preteen D, and she and both of her younger sibs do NOT know what has transpired in our marraige or in thier dad's new life. But I don't think he has a clue either.<P>All I know is that there is an affair with a close also married, also parent coworker. She and my H have been pretty self righteous about the affair and even have a two month old son. They are not living to gether, and I think they would have lied until both were D...to make it look like it was all coincidental...until the preganancy made them fess up.<P>I've had many discussions with the kids counselor re: the truth. She has advised me to keep my H responsible for the details, but to say what I KNOW if asked...which is not much except for the above.<P>You know, at this point, what is the truth and who knows it???<P>All I know is that for me, the affair(and baby...if you can believe it) is not even close to the issues I feel the necessity to discuss with the kids as they get older.<P>For me...The affair is simply a cliche!!! It really comes down to how my H has treated me and the kids as human beings. I can't be truly objective, obviously, at this point...but I hope somehow I can instill some sense of boundaries in my children that will enable them to grow up with character...not perfect...but responsible...caring.. and not feeling entitled.<P>So far, all my H has said to them was "i'm sad and confused"...that was in the beginning. Now that they know we are getting D, all he says is "sometimes it just doesn't work out"... That's not really good enough of a reply as far as I'm concerned, but all I can really do is control myself and my actions and hopefully show my kids something different.<P>I feel I've found peace regarding the "relationship" with his coworker...but I want to distance myself and the kids from the total lack of regard he has for us as fellow human beings.<P>I don't want to open a political debate, but I sometimes wonder about the prevalence in our society to overlook "character" or "what they do in their personal lives as not being our business" and to allow the end to justify the means. I have a really difficult time doing that these days.... And I seem to get into a debate with so many people about the Clinton's...(everyone thinks they did so many wonderful things for our country) because I have such a hard time separating the two issues... WHat you do, and who you are.<P>Oh well.<P>And also, I am also a child of a parent (dad) who had an affair. He never left my mom, but continued to be unhappy and blame my mom the whole rest of his short life. My dad was very emotionally immature... and continued to have emotional relationships after the physical one, that kept him angry and blaming towards my mom...who took it.<P>I felt sorry for both of them, but I always wished my mom (who never bad mouthed my dad) would have respected herself enough to get up and live her life to the fullest...but she didn't...and she also died young...just 2 years after my dad.<P>Neither of my parents really got to know or enjoy me or my children.<P>I guess I don't want that for my kids. I wish my H happiness, but this life is our gift too!!!<P>I really wish our H's could SEE what they are doing Nellie...to me, it seems such a waste of a life.

I'm at the point where I think that WHATEVER people think, feel, want for their lives is their business... and I can say, "Hey, you do that"... and mean it! <P>There is one caveat: don't hurt others to do it.<P>So...<P><B>Nellie</B>, <P>If you want to love your husband until your dying day - Hey, you do that! I hope he comes out of his fog and falls in love with you again... I hope he becomes the husband and father you know he can be.<P>Remember Patty McCloud, Gavin's wife? Gavin, from the Love Boat... she prayed him home AFTER the divorce... they have a show on TBN and they are happily in love again. <P>Miracles can happen.<P>I hope one happens for you.<P>

Nellie -- <BR>I, too, read your posts with interest and great sympathy.<BR>I don't know what I would do, either, with six children to support, an out-of-work exhusband and the additional burdens that have come with the divorce.<P>It is truly maddening to think that this walk-away husband and father could so cavalierly dismiss all of you for the OW. I think most everyone here can feel your pain and that of your kids -- the fact that they have to practically make an appointment to see him is upsetting enough but to know that this, too, comes from the OW's mandate is truly terrible!<P>More to come later on this... I've been interrupted.

willbok,<P>I agree that there is so much more to this than the infidelity. One of the many other issues is that I can not call and talke to my H, unless he happens to be in the car, even about emergencies. The one time I called him, she hung up on me, not even letting me leave a message. He has told me that "they" might not answer the phone if my number comes up on caller id. He said in the event of a serious emergency, I should leave a message. <P>sing,<P>I wasn't really expecting that this thread would generate quite this much controversy. It seems pretty clear to me that lying is wrong, and lying is the ultimate disrespect.<P>TheStudent,<P>Thanks for the support. <P>No one has the right to tell someone else how they should feel.<P>Caitie,<P>Thank you for your support. I doubt that my soul is in any danger of become twisted. Personally, I think there is a greater risk in trying to suppress emotions. It is a tad difficult to find tons of joy in life when you are in danger of becoming homeless. <P>tootrusting,<P>I agree that who you are is a function of the sum total of what you do. Frank Pittman discusses that same concept in one of his books - I think it was in Grow Up. Yes, you can make mistakes and be remorseful. You can not separate your life into compartments. <P>nb,<P>I will love my H until my dying day - I am certain of that. Thank you for your wishes.<P>MovingOn,<P>It is impossible to co-parent if you are not allowed to ever have a discussion. He seems to be able to shut them out of his thoughts about 98% of the time. He has not asked about our older daughters in months. His kids have become strangers to him. He never was one to sit and have long, deep talks with his kids. Much of the connection between him and the older kids especially was through me - I would keep him in the loop re any issues, difficulties, achievements, etc. Now he has little interest. Months ago, I tried to speak to him about an problem one of the kids was having in school, and his response was, "What do you want me to do about it?" <p>[This message has been edited by Nellie1 (edited March 19, 2001).]

Hi Nellie:<P>You know the more I read about your exH, the more I totally dislike and disrespect him! Even though I am somewhat in the same mode of thinking as you (I'll never forgive my ex either for leaving me and now being with Mia) at least he is by all accounts a very loving and generous father. I guess I should be grateful for that.

Nellie--<P>To be clear, I did not say that it was likely you would find "tons" of joy anytime soon. I do acknowledge the horrible position you are in. What I was trying to say, maybe poorly, is that even people in very bad situations can find joy in some aspects of their lives. <P>Sometimes I get the feeling that a little bit of you feels that feels that to find any joy in your life would be to say that what has happened to you is OK. It is not, and never will be OK for your H to do what he has done. <P>I have done volunteer work in the past with homeless people, and one I admire most was a woman who did end up homeless due to her husband's brutality, alcoholism and finally, abandonment. She had little education, and struggled for everything, but was able to find joy in her children, in the bits of beauty around her, in the kindness of others. I truly fear I would have a hard time letting go of anger as she did. But how much better for her kids to see an example of gratitude and joy than one of bitterness. <P>I wish I thought I would be able to do as well if I were in that position. Anyway, I wish you well.

Nellie,<BR>It occurred to me today that you really haven't had a whole lot of time or personal space to mourn this tragedy. Not only that, the wounds get reopened on a very routine basis by your ex. You have had to focus so long on just providing for your basic survival needs. I'm sure it is hard enough just to have a roof over your head. You've been forced to be super-mom through all of this. My sister has been through something similar, and she only has one child.<P>This is why I feel so strongly about this. I see what my sister has gone through with her ex. I've listened to her cry her eyes out, why he won't stop being so mean to her.

Tired Lady,<P>When he first left, I was afraid that he would become withdrawn from the children, but I never envisioned that it would be as bad as it is. I will always love him, and I am quite sure I would be able to forgive him, were he to show remorse. Unfortunately, I have not seen any. <P>Caitie,<P>I do enjoy my children, but that is tempered by my constant concern about how much they have suffered and will continue to suffer from both their father's withdrawal and from poverty. There is little support for single parents in this area. I know no one exactly one single parent, and she is a widow. I have no adult family to depend upon , no back-up from my H in case of emergency. Any job I ever have will have to require no travel, no overtime, and great flexibility. Six years ago we moved here with both my H and I without a job, and had no trouble finding a place to rent. I have discovered that often landlords are not interested in renting to single parents, even employed ones. I have all the responsibility, but he is entitled to see the kids more or less whenever he should happen to feel like it, not that that has been very often.