I agree with RWD, it is hard for someone not to get hurt; even just a little when dating. Someone usually always wants a little more. I think when your wounds are still fresh from a divorce...relationship pain becomes twice as painful. I quess this is why you should wait, but like 711 mentioned, so many of us are amazed that someone finds us attractive so we rush on in into it.<P>I don't know why I got so involved so soon. It just seemed natural. I know now that I hadn't healed from the events of the past and neither had he. There are many things that came up that stung, but I won't go into them. What truly bothered me is he never talked to me about them on the phone or in person. I thought I was worthy of a real life goodbye rather than a cold email, but hey, that's life. <P>In any case, my sense of who I can trust and who is genuine has been knocked completely out of focus. I am not bitter, but tired and truly confused. I have a trial to prepare for...my divorce. I imagine someday I'll feel like a normal woman again.

I guess I look at all of this differently. I have friends to do stuff with. I get emotional support from plenty of people around me. Sure there are some things I miss, but there is alot that I do not.<P>In the two years since my divorce, I have said goodbye to two friends, and put some distance between myself and two others. Some are male, some are female. These "breakups" parallel dating, in a sense that I spent time getting to know them, invested some of my thoughts and emotions (albeit not romantic ones), and I'm sad at some level that I'm not friends with them anymore. I don't regret the time I spent with them, though. <P>I'm not putting my health at risk. Noone goes into a friendship thinking--I hope this is the ONE! There is so much less at risk. I've had a few guys express an interest in me. One or two have been obviously interested for a couple of years now. The feelings I get when I am around them is that they want something from me. They've got this fantasy set up in their head and they think I will complete the picture, or they find me physically attractive and have nothing else going on with someone else and I just happen to be around. Either way, I don't feel like they really know me or are attracted to me, or really give a cr*p about me outside of how they think I will complete their life. This is especially true of guys who become immediately infatuated after just having met me. Oh yea. THAT's real.<P>

T-L-C<P>My prior bf and I went into our relationship with our eyes wide open too. We knew the risks but decided to go for it anyway. We didn't play games. We did get much closer than we ever expected and that is why it hurt so much when it ended. <P>RWD: I agree with you. I don't think you can expect to not get hurt when a relationship ends. In that first relationship, I was hoping that it wouldn't end although I thought it probably would. I also think it is hard to casually date. As you know, I have tried that and it didn't work. Too much confusion as to what each person wants, etc. I prefer dating just one person at a time. <P>Lonelysoul: I'm sorry again about how badly your relationship ended. To send emails vs. talking to you in person or at least on the phone is really sad and cowardly. I hope that your time with your friends helps you rebuild your faith in relationships. <P>I just started reading a book last night regarding fear in relationships. It is called "Mastery of Love". I had read a prior book by the same author called "The Four Agreements". Both have been very enlightening. I hope that I can approach life and love differently in the future. <P>TS: It's nice to hear from you. I agree it is important to have friends to provide us with the emotional support we need. And, you don't have to deal with a lot of other issues if you only have friends to deal with. But, I know I want more than just friends in my life one day. So, I'm going to continue to try and figure out what it is I need and want in my life and continue to be honest with anyone I meet regarding where I am in life, and hopefully, I will find someone that loves me just the way that I am and vice versa.

711,<BR>The problem with "dating" is that people are approaching each other with mating in mind. The guy is trying to "get some" usually and the woman is wondering if she should let him and all the crap that goes along with that.<P><BR>What about just getting to know someone? What about approaching it as a possible good friend first? Really, isn't that the absolute first step? Wouldn't you like to just ask yourself if this is someone you want to associate with as a friend? It seems that way too many people go out on "dates" with some kind of magic list in their hands. <P>Yea, I understand that you want "more" someday, but I still think you are going about it backwards. This is why I encourage people to do as much stuff as possible in a group setting. You can see what they are like informally, then decide if you want to get to know them better. I can't imagine ever going on a blind date, for instance. Even then, if all you've got is eyes on the prize, on that bucket of gold at the end of the rainbow, you're gonna trip over the stones on the way there because you weren't looking around you. You're also gonna miss all the beautiful wildflowers growing up around the stones you just tripped on too!<P>My advice is not designed to make you celibate for life!! Just to find some peace between now and Mr.Right!! I can't stand all these books on dating, and all the do's and don'ts like it is some kind of strategy or a game.

Dating is one of those terms that each of us interepts differently. I certainly don't approach the other person with mating in mind. Perhaps men do, I'm not a man and can't speak for them, but I know for sure I don't.<P>I had no intention of dating or getting involved at all. My intent certainly wasn't mating. I trusted this individual to be a friend. My intution is usually right on the mark. The truama of divorce, obviously colored my perceptions. No one held a gun to my head...I entered into the unknown with both eyes open...though slightly clouded over with the excitement of a new relationship with someone who appeared to care. Perhaps he had different motives than what I thought...it's hard to say. I just know that I didn't deserve what I got. I know I was just what I said...a friend. You can't be a friend to someone who won't let you. <P>I have no magic list. I don't even have a list. I do know one thing, I am not ready for a relationship of any intensity right now. Perhaps, you have to stumble a bit before you get it right. Sometimes you fall hard and there is healing, but the experience left scars. My marriage and the ending of it has left many emotional wounds that need time to heal...my need to feel loved backfired, creating more emotional wounds. <P>I realize now that I can't honestly give of myself until my domestic issues are behind me. It isn't fair. I wouldn't want to do what was done to me. <P>

I wasn't gonna reply here because Lord knows I have had such a difficult time of things myself.<P>I am in another relationship -- and if you want to know about it feel free to look on my last thread <A HREF="http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002352.html" TARGET=_blank>http://www.marriagebuilders.com/forum/Forum34/HTML/002352.html</A> -- However, I cannot come on here and yell out, "Hey, this is wonderful, you try it" because it isn't how I feel. As my sig line says, Life <B>IS</B> Difficult... and this issue is part of what makes it that way.<P>All I can say, without reservation, is this: Make sure you have gone through the grieving process BEFORE you get involved with someone else. My BIGGEST MISTAKE was not taking the time to do that. <P>And to answer your question 711... you won't know for sure... you use judgement, faith, intuition, your gut... and you still take a chance. I got lucky, in that this man is who he said he was. But I have hurt him... by having not gone through the grieving process...BEFORE I got here...<P>------------------<BR>~Sheryl<BR>(a bit worse for the wear, but hanging in there)<P><B>Life <I>is</I> difficult</B>.<BR><I>The Road Less Traveled</I><BR>~M. Scott Peck<P><p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 21, 2001).]

When I say that people approach dating with mating in mind I'm not just talking about sex. I'm also talking about the (supposedly) more honorable ambition of finding a life-partner.<P>I use that word "ambition" on purpose. When I meet a new person (man or woman) I don't have any ambition in mind except to get to know them. I have been approached by men with honorable intentions of finding someone to settle down with, yet still that turns me off. As long as they have an end goal in mind, I keep thinking that alot is going to slip by them. <P>I'm starting to figure this out about some of these friends that are no longer friends now. One or two of them had different values from me. One of them told me that she sought me out because I appeared to be successful, etc. Funny. When I first met her I just thought she seemed nice and was about my age and nothing more. <P>We aren't friends anymore because it seemed like she was willing to say/do just about anything to get ahead. Again, our values were not in line. I'm convinced that if I had gone into it with some kind of agenda of my own, I wouldn't have seen this part of her personality, or I would have rationalized what she was doing in order to get what *I* want. Sorry for the long drawn out example. I think this story applies to dating as well. If we go into it with mainly our needs in mind, we won't be as observant about the other person. For the good stuff and the not-so-good stuff as well.

Hey Girls,<P>Just me lurking,<P>TS,<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>I have been approached by men with honorable intentions of finding someone to settle down with, yet still that turns me off.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <P>Can you explain to me why you feel this way??<BR>[curious to know your thoughts.]<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>As long as they have an end goal in mind, I keep thinking that alot is going to slip by them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Like?????<P>A good friend has told me many a times that EVERYONE has an AGENDA.[I'm not sure I really believe that.]<P>Gina <P><P>------------------<BR>"If we deny love that is given to us,if we refuse to give love because we fear pain or loss,then our lives will be empty,our loss greater!"-----Anonymous----

<BR>A good friend has told me many a times that EVERYONE has an AGENDA.[I'm not sure I really believe that.]<P>I beleive most people have them...agendas that is; however not all of them are sinister or selfish. There are some people that are selfish and take what ever it is they can get from someone. Having an agenda in a relationship will not work. Approaching a relationship with the idea that there has to be a hidden agenda isn't all too healthy...well, I don't think it is, but who am I to give out tips on relationships this month. I do beleive that there are some honest people out there who may want to share your company for no other reason than they enjoy your company. <P><BR>

How will we know "next time" that it is safe to trust? We can't and won't know. In fact, we didn't know the <I>first</I> time. It's something we took on faith.<P>What we've lost is our innocence, the child-like non-rational belief that the evil in the world will not reach out to hurt <I>us</I>.<P>I do not believe that my judgment was faulty when I committed myself to my wife. It is true that, having been raised by loving supportive parents in a stable environment, I comprehended little of how my wife might have been affected by being raised by an alcoholic narcissist and an abused co-dependent. But should I have treated that as a red flag? Should I have instead sought out one of the few women who had never known betrayal? Does someone who has never been tested by the vicissitudes of life merit greater confidence?<P>I think not.<P>I also think that innocence, once lost, can never be regained.<P>What we <I>can</I> do, <I>if</I> we so choose, is to step out again in faith, this time <I>knowing</I> what can happen.<P>The choice is up to us.<BR>

Perhaps everyone does have an agenda. But that doesn't mean everything they do is focused on meeting that agenda.<P>I knew a guy in college who was always lamenting about not having a girlfriend. I think the reason he didn't have one was because he couldn't just develop a healthy friendship with anyone of the opposite sex. He was too fixated on whether <I>she</I> was going to be the <I>one</I>.<BR>

Gina,<P>Hmmm. Why does it turn me off? First, because half the time I don't buy it. Just because they say they are looking for a commitment doesn't mean they aren't sifting through women. This is a moot point to me anyway. I don't think most people are capable of maintaining a life-time commitment anyway. Maybe that is another reason it bugs me. I think, yea sure, Buddy, till it gets old and you find someone you like better.<P><BR>

Ok - Lots more comments to respond to.<P>TS: Would you please clarify why you think I am going about dating backwards. I thought what I was doing now was what you had suggested. Getting to know someone before making any serious commitments again. Is it the one on one dating that you object to? I agree that going out in groups is probably the best approach although I think one on one dating is still ok. Although you don't like the dating books on the market now, there are quite a few out now that talk about just that. They call it courtship dating. One book is titled "Boy Meets Girl". I haven't read it yet but a friend loaned it to me. <P>Woops, got to come back later. The children are dragging me away from the computer. First things first!

711,<P>I'm sorry if this seems so confusing. Getting to know someone first before making any serious commitments---I suppose there are alot of ways to do that.<P>I don't think I like the idea of "dating" at all. One-on-one, in groups, all the same to me. If your agenda is to do these things with the express purpose in mind of finding someone to be romantically involved with either long-term or short-term...well it just seems you are focusing on the wrong things. That is what I mean about getting it backwards. When someone is trying to impress you (or you them)--which is usually the case in most dating situations--neither of you are really presenting *who you are*. <P>I don't know if I'm really helping you much. You seem very intent on getting involved again, and here I am going "oh whatever". I'm having a hard time taking this subject very seriously. I've already decided I'm screwed no matter which way I go, so it doesn't much matter to me. I'm just "doing my time" here in this life and trying to make it as bearable as possible in the meantime. <P><BR>

TS:<P>I am intrigued by people in general...and it is obvious to me that something happened to you along life's journey that shaped your opinion of the dating...mating game...whatever you want to call it. I know why I feel the way I do....16 years in a marriage where I did 98% of everything...a sick spouse, an abusive spouse, kids, etc. When I finally had the courage to say no more...he turned physically abusive and still is playing head games...<P>In the beginning I loved him...parts of me always will, but I respect myself and know I can't be someone else's doormat. He has hurt me...all those years and now he wants me out on the street.<P>I think a lot of your points are sound and good ones...but some are harsh. I believe that I have a problem with picking the wrong men. I do. It seems that for most of my adult life I have given and given and given. In return, I don't have much to show. My husband wants to throw me out in the street and keep 16 years worth of marrital asssets and the man I was involved with...never gave me the respect of even a phone call to break it off completely. My fear is to keep making the same mistake...until I can figure it out...I am not venturing out in the jungle again. <P>I don't know. I honestly thought that this nonsense was reserved for teenagers. Haven't we men and women learned anything in all these years?<P><p>[This message has been edited by Lonelysoul (edited March 22, 2001).]

TS,<BR>It sounds to me like you are trying to take emotion out of the "equation." Your engineering background looks to be showing through, IMO. <P>Your situation is quite different than mine and a lot of others. You are surrounded by classmates that lend you what ever emotional support you seem to need. You indicate that you go places with groups of people.<P>I work from home and only see 3-5 other people, majority being men, most days. I meet with 2 male married friends on Mon nites at my home, play basketball on Wed nite for an hour and go to local watering hole afterwards for an hour were it is all men and some wives, and also play basketball ywo hrs on Fri nites, again with all men, and then I go home to my kids.<P>I don't and I venture most other out here, don't have the resources/time you do to meet/go out with/associate with groups of people, especially with kids in the picture.<P>None of these activities meet my EN for affection. WHile my kids meet a great bit of this EN, something is still missing. I also thought the purpose of dating was for finding a mate. You still have to spend time with the person. I don't know how well you can get to know someone in a group setting, I know I am different in groups than one on one. So how else do you get to know someone, with out taking the risk of getting hurt???<P>You can not go down a checklist and say the person meets all this criteria so he must be the one, to me, this is almost what it sounds like you are saying since you don't beleive in dating. <P>I know that is what some people do after the divorce, and end up marrying the first person that is nice to them and don;t really get to know someone, but I believe dating is the only way to go.<P>Bob

Hi everyone,<P>Not to be trite, but people are people... some are nice, some are mean, some are loving, some are hateful. You try to find the best people to surround yourself with... but sometimes you make mistakes, and the people you surround yourself with hurt you. That's life. It hurts, it brings joy... all in the same lifetime...<P>As far as dating goes: some of us will date right away, some of us will never date again, some of us will date too soon, some of us will work it out with our spouses in the end. Who knows what will happen? Life is everchanging and what you believe at this moment may not be what you believe tomorrow -- and no, I'm not talking about moral choices (like fidelity) --<P>...and yes, I think that dating leads to mating-- and not just sexual. <P>I used to use the tag line from a John Lennon song: Life is what happens while you are busy making other plans.<P>That's about it, doncha think?<p>[This message has been edited by new_beginning (edited March 21, 2001).]

NB,<P>"It hurts, it brings joy... all in the same lifetime..."<P>I think I'm really just tired of all this. Would that apocalypse everyone keeps talking about just hurry up and happen already? Watching it kind of go down slowly is not my idea of fun. <P>lonelysoul,<BR>Comes from years of observation of the relationships of my friends and family and realizing I wouldn't want any of them. Most of the women get the short of the stick. Who was it, Copernicus (?) who "discovered" that the earth revolved around the sun and not the other way around. I just looked it up. Yes, it was him. <P>"Copernicus died in 1543 and was never to know what a stir his work had caused. It went against the philosophical and religious beliefs that had been held during the medieval times. Man, it was believed (and still believed by some--ESPECIALLY MEN (emphasis mine)) was made by God in His image, man was the next thing to God, and, as such, superior, especially in his best part, his soul, to all creatures (ESPECIALLY WOMEN!!), indeed this part was not even part of the natural world (a philosophy which has proved disastrous to the earth's environment as any casual observer of the 20th century might confirm by simply looking about). (DUH!!!) Copernicus' theories might well lead men to think that they are simply part of nature and not superior to it and that ran counter to the theories of the political powerful churchmen of the time." <BR> <A HREF="http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Science/Copernicus.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.blupete.com/Literature/Biographies/Science/Copernicus.htm</A> <P>OH DARN!! Didn't that Copernicus guy just spoil the party?!<P>---hey, they didn't ask the church WOMEN now did they? <P>Anyway, NOW we need someone to inform MEN that the earth doesn't revolve around them...<P>Here's a joke...How does a man change a lightbulb?<BR>Hold it and wait for the earth to revolve around him. <P><BR>Hey guys...don't get too bent. I'm a little slap happy this week. My back is killing me, I'm writing my PhD proposal(which is due next week) AND it is "that time" of the month. Bet you guys don't miss that from your ex. LOL.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by TheStudent (edited March 21, 2001).]

TS: We are definitely on the opposite side of the coin when it comes to dating. You are right, I am dating again so that I might meet someone who I can live the rest of my life with one day. And, you have decided that dating isn't worth your time. Different people, different choices. I still have hope that there is someone out there for me. Do I have my doubts? You bet. That's why I asked the original question "How will I know next time?". Why do I still have hope? Because I have seen second marriages work. My parents have succeeded the second time around (at least so far). They just celebrated their 40th wedding anniversary.<P>GDP: I think you answered my question best -I won't know next time around. I just have to have faith.<P>Thanks everyone for all your replies. I'm confident that what I have learned on this website and about myself through a lot of soul searching over the last few years, will help me be happy or content wherever I end up. Be it alone or married again one day. <p>[This message has been edited by 711 (edited March 21, 2001).]

711,<P>I need to clarify something...<P>I don't think that dating is necessarily a waste of time. It is just a different way to get to know people. I tend to believe that it is usually FAKE and tends to encourage people to put forth an unrealistic image of themselves. In that sense, it IS a waste of time only because it generally takes quite a long time to get the WHOLE picture. But hey, as RWD pointed out, there don't seem to be a whole lot of other alternatives. <P>It occurred to me that we (as a society) have come up with alot of elaborate mechanisms to replace the communities we used to have a long time ago. A 100 yrs ago, people more-or-less were born and grew up in the same communities. You knew someone's family and background. Odds are you went to school with them, worked alongside them, etc. while growing up. The things leading up to a successful marriage (ie. similar backgrounds, values, and so on) were readily apparent. Now, we have to go through this dating crap and spend God knows how long finding out about all of this. Then, 2 yrs, 5 yrs, sometimes 10, 15, 20 yrs down the road people realize something is fundamentally wrong in there somewhere. To top it off, our generation has never faced any REAL hardship, so even if incompatibilities did surface, people are too weak or lazy to work it out. <P>Now, living in that environment also had it's downside too. Still, it seems like dating is a very poor substitute for the type of community life that supports getting to know people WITHOUT the pressure of "mating".