Dear Bramble Rose,<P>I would just like to make a small correction if I may. All the Church leaders quoted here are considered the early authoritative leaders of all 7 major branches growing from New Testament Christianity. The seven branches being:<P>1. The Roman Catholic Church, and its various descended divisions<BR>2. The Eastern Orthodox Church movement and its descended denominations<BR>3. The Moravian Church movement and its descended denominations<BR>4. The Lutheran Protestant Church movement and its descended denominations<BR>5. The Reformed Protestant Church movement and it descended denominations<BR>6. The Anabaptists Protestant Church movement and its descended denominations<BR>7. The Church of England movement and it descended denominations<P>The first author quoted is Ignatius, who was thought to have been both a personal disciple of two of the original apostles, as well as a, if not the major leader of the Church at the turn of the first century.<P>The last author quoted is Augustine who is undisputedly the greatest theologian the Church has produced up until the reformation period and perhaps to this day.<P>None of these people are considered more Catholic than any other quoted persuasion, except by the Catholics. (who also claim that Peter was Catholic)<P>These branches represent all of the denominations and divisions of present day Christianity, except for some very small regional entities that split off as a result of early doctrinal controversies.<P>Several major cults of today that deny certain doctrines like the Trinity, would cut themselves off much earlier in order to avoid the debates.<P>Please understand. The doctrines that these people put forward IS the doctrine of the Church up until relatively recently. If their words sound strange it is because of mutation began at a very late date.<P>If you compare their statements with New Testament Scripture you will find a free flow harmony, in my opinion.<BR>For all practicle purposes, this was our grandparent's opinions as well.

Dear Truth Seeker,<P>(Nice name, me too) What I mean is as laid out in God's laws. The man and woman being unmarried, not close relatives and of age and understanding. (Thats the short version, Leviticus gives the longer version)

<BR>And everyone has their own interpretation of the scriptures. These demoninations mentioned vary so widely in their view of scripture that you shouldn't even put them in the same "essay" ... and they all think their version of intrepretation is the "only" intrepretation.<P>This is alittle to legalistic for my tastes. As Christians, we are no longer under "The Law", but under Grace ... and we all make mistakes .... willfully and not .... <P>Yes, God hates divorce ... God hates sin, period. Thankfully he's provided a Savior .... is that alicense to sin? No, duh. Paul said that. <P>Divorced people in heaven? Sorry to burst your bubble, Spirit o' Hope, but yeah they'll be up there. Christians aren't perfect, just forgiven.<P>

You say you are here to post the truth. The truth according to whom? In reality it is only your interpretation. Every religion and denomination has it's own version of the truth-so how is your truth any truer than anyone else's? <P>Aren't you Christians supposed to love your fellow man? Coming here and posting this perhaps causing pain to those already suffering is hardly a loving thing to do.

Spirit of Hope - I have a question concerning what the Church calls the Pauline Priviledge - concerning a spouse leaving who is an unbeliever. Paul says that if the "unbeliever" departs, the spouse is no longer bound. Is the word unbeliever translated correctly to mean non-Christian? Or can a non-believer also be a lapsed Christian, one that does not honor the marriage vows or commits adultery? Does disregarding God's word and refusing to live by it make one an unbeliever? I cannot remember the source in the Bible precisely, but I seem to remember instructions to those who have been sinned against - that the victim is to go to the family members/friends of the sinner and ask that they intervene of their behalf. If the sinner does not repent, the victim is to go to Church leaders and ask for them to intervene. If the sinner still refuses to repent of his sin and stop the offending behavior, the victim is no longer bound to the sinner, and may sever the relationship, and that the sinner was to be considered an "unbeliever." If this is so, then following this line of reasoning, spouses who are abandoned and have spouses that commit adultery are no longer bound.<p>[This message has been edited by Lady M (edited May 11, 2001).]

Dear Lady M,<P>In reference to your question regarding the late doctrine termed the "Pauline Privledge" and the subsequent questions derived from the presupposition of it, please let me quote the 1 Cor. scriptural analysis used to formulate it:<P>1 Corinthians 7: 10 - 11<P>"Now for those who are married I have a command that comes not from me, but from the Lord. A wife must not leave her husband. But if she does leave him, let her remain single or else go back to him. And the husband must not leave his wife." (NLT)<P>Paul's' teaching:<P>1. This command has the full authority of the Creator and is the fundamental principle and interpretive device to understanding all that God has instructed us on Marriage, divorce and remarriage. It binds Paul, the early Church and we today to its overriding command, and it is not negotiable, conditional or non applicable in all matters pertaining to it. This is not simply a statement of what God considers to be an ideal, but a direct command.<P>2. A wife must not leave her husband.<P>3. A provision is made for those who have had to be separated from their spouse for any reason whatsoever - Singleness.<P>4. Remarriage for divorced or separated spouses is strictly forbidden.<P>5. Upon separation or divorce the spouses can (and should) be reconciled.<P>It is difficult to imagine how Paul could state any clearer what the Christian doctrine, as defined by the Lord Jesus himself, is and forever will be. He goes into greater detail in the rest of the chapter to illustrate how it is put into practice and how to apply the principle in the situations faced by real people in the real world who are called by His name.<P>In every single application described in the rest of this chapter, Paul uses this command of the Lord Jesus Christ as the only plumb line of truth. We can do no less.<P><BR>H.<BR>1 Corinthians 7:12 - 17<P>"Now I speak to the rest of you, though I do not have a direct command of the Lord. If a Christian man has a wife who is an unbeliever, and she is willing to continue living with him, he must not leave her. And if a Christian Woman has a husband who is an unbeliever, and he is willing to continue living with her, she must not leave him.” <P>“For the Christian wife brings Holiness to her marriage, and the Christian husband brings Holiness to his marriage. Otherwise, your children would not have a Godly influence, but now they are set apart for him. (But if the husband or wife who isn't a Christian insists on leaving, let them go. In such cases the Christian husband or wife is not required to stay with them, for God wants his children to live in peace.)” <P>“You wives must remember that your husband might be converted because of you. And you husbands must remember that your wives might be converted because of you. You must accept whatever situation the Lord has put you in and continue on, as you were when God first called you. This is my rule for all the Churches. " (NLT)<P>Paul's Teaching: <P>1. This doctrine and practice is given not only to the Corinthian Church, but to us as well.<P>2. A Christian husband is to treat his unchristian wife the same way he would if she was a Christian. A Christian wife is to treat her unbelieving husband the same way she would if he was a Christian.<P>3. God compensates for the ungodly influence of the unbelieving spouse by the direct influence of the Holy Spirit through the Christian spouse, setting apart the children for himself.<P>4. As long as the unbelieving spouse wants to live together, the Christian must not leave.<P>5. If the unchristian spouse wants to leave or divorce, let them go in peace, don’t try to force them to stay.<P>6. The Christian husband or wife must bear in mind that they may be able to lead their unchristian spouse to the Lord because of the way they handle these matters.<P>7. Christians in unfavorable marital circumstances are commanded to accept the situation they are in and specifically instructed not to try to change it by separation or divorce.<P>Paul's instructions are in conformity and obedience to the direct command of the Lord expressed in verses 10 and 11. He instructs the Christians to act like Christians regardless of the actions of their spouses. We must bear in mind everything we do is a testimony to our children and our unbelieving or wayward spouses. Nowhere in this passage is there the slightest allowance for divorce and remarriage.<P>The message, not a word for word translation, but a paraphrase designed to say things the way we would say them today, renders verses 15 to 17 as follows:<P> "On the other hand if the unbelieving spouse walks out, you've got to let him or her go. You don't have to hold on desperately. God has called us to make the best of it, as peacefully as we can.” <P>“You never know wife; the way you handle this might bring your husband not only back to you, but also to God. You never know husband: The way you handle this might bring your wife not only back to you, but also to God" (THE MESSAGE)<P>I.<BR>1 Corinthians 7: 25 - 30<P>"Now about the young women who are not yet married. I do not have a command from the Lord about them. But the Lord in his kindness has given me wisdom that can be trusted, and I will share it with you. Because of the present crisis, I think that it is best to remain just as you are.”<P>“If you have a wife, do not end the marriage. If you do not have a wife, do not get married. But if you do get married, it is not a sin. And if a young woman gets married it is not a sin. However I am trying to spare you the extra problems that come with marriage.” <P>“Now let me say this, the time that remains is very short, so husbands should not let marriage be their major concern. Happiness or sadness or wealth should not keep anyone from doing God's work." (NLT)<P>Paul's' teaching:<P>1. Paul is giving his best advice on how to handle particular applications of the previously stated principles.<P>2. During a time of trouble it is easier not to be married.<P>3. If a man has a wife, do not end the marriage. If a man does not have a wife, don't get married.<P>4. If an unmarried woman wants to get married, let her.<P>5. If a man does not have a wife it is not a sin to marry.<P>6. Don't let marriage be your major concern, it's not first in importance, God is.<P>7. Christians must do God's work and obey him, no matter what the marital circumstances. Personal happiness or sadness must not alter our obedience in decisions and activities.<P>Paul does not have a direct command from the Lord regarding the unmarried, so again he applies the Lord's command given in verse 10. Although he advises that being single is easier, as stated throughout the letter, he declares that if there is an unmarried man or woman, it is not a sin if they get married. <P>The word for young woman implies a maiden or virgin, and applies to the masculine gender equally. If a man or woman is virginally unmarried, they may marry. If on the other hand anyone is already married, stay married as per the Lord's command.<P>The King James Version, the historic mainstay of the English speaking Church, stands out as a variant in modern understanding of two words in this passage, something the original English translators would never have intended in 1611. <P>The use of the words "bound and loosed" as the appropriate present day English words for “married and unmarried” has provided considerable comfort for those seeking loopholes to run divorce and remarriage camels through. They ignore the reference to the virginal unmarried precondition and stretch "loosed" to refer to those that had previously been married, but subsequently divorced.<P>With a blind eye to the Lord's command that if separated or divorced they are to remain single, many rationalize away the rest of the restraining teachings and proceed to do what seems right in their own eyes. Even a cursory look at the subject matter disallows such liberties. But in case any misunderstood him, Paul again explains what he meant in the verses to follow.<BR> <P>J.<BR>1 Corinthians 7:35 - 40<P>" But if a man thinks he should marry his fiancée because he has trouble controlling his passions, and time is passing, it is all-right, it is not a sin. Let them marry. But if he has decided firmly not to marry, and there is no urgency and he can control his passion, he does well not to marry. So the person who marries does well, and the person who doesn't marry, does even better.” <P>“A wife is married to her husband as long as he lives. If her husband dies, she is free to marry whomever she wishes, but this must be in a marriage acceptable to the Lord. But in my opinion it will be better for her if she doesn't marry again, and I think I am giving you counsel from God's Spirit when I say this." (NLT)<P>Paul's' teaching:<P>1. Christians who have never been married are free to marry if they wish. <P>2. Christians who have never been married are free not to marry if they wish.<P>3. A Christian is married to their spouse as long as they both live and the covenant bond is unbreakable while both live.<P>4. A Christian is released upon death of a spouse to remarry.<P>5. The marriage has to be acceptable to the Lord.<P>6. Some second marriages after the death of a spouse are not acceptable to the Lord.<P> <BR>As Paul prepares to turn to other matters he ties up loose ends by summing up his instructions on marriage, divorce and remarriage. Again all his advice conforms to the command of Christ given in verses 10 and 11:<P>"Now for those who are married I have a command that comes not from me, but from the Lord. A wife must not leave her husband. But if she does leave him, let her remain single, or else go back to him. And the husband must not leave his wife." (NLT)<P> <BR>With this teaching Paul closes off the subject, no doubt satisfied that his teaching is plain enough to settle all the questions the Church may have on the subject. He addressed every question he considered important enough to deal with, and he was right, He did. The problem is that many disagree with his statements and have tried to subvert them or redirect their obvious applications. <P>Over and over again Paul states and restates the same themes, without variation, in obedience to the Lord's instructions given him. It matches up perfectly with what Jesus commanded us in the Gospels: <P>"Since they are no longer two but one, let no one separate them, for God has joined them together." (Matthew 19:<P>I hope this illuminates the appropriate passages for your understanding. <P>

SpiritofHope<P>I'm sorry, I guess you didn't understand my point of view. You also didn't answer my questions...<P>From a Catholic perspective, you are quoting early Catholic teaching. "The Church" that you refer to is the Catholic church. All the other "demnominations" as you would put it, branched out because of some disagreement at one point or another on faith and morals (Except for the Eastern Orthodox). <P>I don't want this to turn into a religious debate - BUT, I do feel it is necessary to respond when you use early Catholic teaching to promote a belief that Catholics teaching today does not really support.<P>I don't disagree with the quotes you posted at all. I just interpret them differently.<P>From a modern Catholic point of view, there is NO such thing as divorce when it comes to the sacrament of matrimony. So we are in agreement with the early Fathers.<P>Divorce on a civil level has no bearing on the sacrament. If I divorce my husband - there is no "sin" involved.<P>Again, in agreement with your posts however, if I remarry or take up another relationship, I will be committing adultery.<P>HOWEVER. I do disagree, and object to the idea that somehow when we marry that we are absolutely with the person God willed us to be with.<P>Our job as humans, is to seek out God's will and follow it to the best of our ability. I don't think that God is a puppetmaster, running our lives. We have free will to do as we choose. We make decisions all the time that are mistakes....why can't we make a mistake with regards to a spouse???<P>The Catholic church recognizes that certain conditions must exist for a marriage (in terms of a covenant with God) and that if those conditions aren't present, the sacrament can not take place.<P>And as such, annulments, are given. No divorce occurs within the Church. <P>I find your article slightly misleading, and your interpretations probably more than a little hurtful to those of us here not of our own wishes.<P>I also believe that I have an obligation to protect my children. Should I continue to stay with my husband when his actions are destructive to them? Legal divorce gives me that protection....but according to you...I would be committing a spiritual wrong???<P>

Spirit of Hope - Thank you for your reply. The part about it being easier to not be married brought a smile! I must say it is easier being unmarried now than it was being married to my ex-H!!<P>I, like Bramble Rose, am Catholic, and really want to do the right thing and honor God's will for me. I, too, was divorced against my will by a H who had an affair and left me to marry the OW. I am perfectly happy being single and really have no desire to date, because in my heart, I still feel as if I am married. I have come to terms with the fact that I probably will not remarry, and cannot even comtemplate it unless my marriage is annulled by the Church, something I am planning to initiate soon.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR><BR>though I do not have a direct command of the Lord. <BR><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Need I say more?

I am Episcopalian, by label, and Christian, in my heart. <P>I believe that God breathed life into the Bible, but I do not believe that every story, every proverb, every parable is literal.<P>I also respect people's beliefs that differ from mine, whether it be paganism, atheism, Buddism, or another Christian church with a different *label*...<P>That said, it is between God and each person to determine the right course of action -- or inaction.<P>I, and I alone, will have to answer to God for my choices. I will not answer for anyone else on this planet... and I refuse to pass judgement here.<P>Divorce is a civil law, it is true... and if you still feel "married in your heart" then you have my blessing (although you don't need it) to stand for your marriage until your dying day. But...<P>... if you decide to move on...<P>I will love you and support you just the same.<P>...and I would **hope** that you would allow me the same courtesy.

Sheryl,<P>Yes, I do agree. As sad_n-lonely said, we each have to discern for ourselves, through our own personal connectino with God, what God's will for us is. A book written 2000 years ago may or may not apply to our lives today. I can't help but think that God just might be stiing there saying "Put the book down and LISTEN TO ME!". We get so caught up in what the Bible ahs to say about it. Well the Bible was written 2000 years ago! It has been interpreted and re-interpreted several times over. Some versions of the Bible contain chapters and books that are not included in others. Which one is right? We will never know. <P>all,<P>Does anyone really believe that God has had nothing more to say in 2000 years? I don't believe that. God has been trying to speak to us and so many times, we refuse to listen. So in making any decisions about whether and when to move on, ask God. Ask Him for a personal answer. He will give you one. Our job is to listen to it.<P>Jesus himself was considered a rebel against what was considered "God's Law" of the day. He gave us a new interpretation of it. The thing he most wanted us to do was to love God with all our heart, all our souls, and all our mights. And after that we are to love one another, without judgment. Leave the judgment to God. If we did those two things, the 10 commandments would come naturally to us. No other law would be needed.<P>So ask yourself, do you love or do you judge? I must admit, I am guilty of being judgmental way too many times. It's something I'm working on. But I'm not "there" yet. I pray that God will continue to guide me in this endeavor. And since I asked that He would, I am sure, He will guide me.<P>

Thank you, Truth-Seeker. This is the same way I feel.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

Oh just great! Why the heck did I have to read this stinking post! I guess I just love to hurt myself.<P>I am divorcing my husband, tho he was the unfaithful one. I know that some of you would have me remain married to him, despite the havoc he will wreak on the lives of my children as he spends every cent.<P>Oh, and you will couch it in words to make me believe that it is not man's requirement but God's, and who can argue with that?<P>I too doubt the motives of some of you, who would quote Scripture without regard to the feelings of others. <P>There are additional Scriptures, if I may,<P>"Then we will no longer be infants, tossed back and forth by the waves, and blown here and there by every wind of teaching and by the cunning and craftiness of men in their deceitful scheming. Instead, speaking the truth in love, we will in all things, grow up into Him who is the Head, that is Christ. From Him the whole body, joined and held together by every supporting ligament grows and builds itself up in love, as each part does its work." Ephesians 4:14-16.<P>I am sorry but I do not hear love here. I do not hear the Word of God being used to build up, but to tear down. Although you are willing to condemn us to suffering, you offer no relief through love in God's word. Where do you tell us how God will become our husband, and the provider of all our needs? Where do you remind us that He works all things for our good -- even those things that are the most painful and tragic of all -- which are out of our control? Instead, you are laying forth law which kills. Instead of the true grace which comes from God.<P>You say you have lived this yourself, and yet you do not here share the triumphs of the grace of God in your life to supply what you need through your obedience in faith.<P>I have enough guilt, thank you very much. If you are ready to share the love of God, and how your faith in His way of life for you ( and for all Christians according to you) has been fulfilling and complete then bring it on. I am not claiming that the Christian life is meant to be rosy and gay at all times -- but I know that God does not mean me to be consumed by my sacrifice to live his way. He means for me to live in joy, forgiveness, and grace. How have these played out in your life, through even your study of Scripture? How has God shown you His love despite the willing sacrifice of obedience which you lay before His feet? Instead you give us law which kills. Tell us of His GRACE!!!! Please. Even His grace through the single life you encourage us to choose.<P>You have NOT been a SpiritofHope to me, but another to condemn and tear down. You have torn at the fabric of Christian unity -- of which the marriage bond is only a symbol -- by speaking the truth yet disregarding God's compassion and love for each of us. I am not one to say it is a greater sin -- and yet, it is sin the same as if you remarried when you knew remarriage to be wrong.

Nora, this was my point when I first questioned SpiritOfHope's true motives for being here. I haven't seen this person posting on the Infidelity forums - nothing on GQII or the Pregnancy/Child forum... or any of the others.<P>As I said - this is NOT the place to be preaching this. Go to the legal system - the hungry divorce lawyers - the home-wreckers that are out there feeding on our misfortune. Go preach God's Word at the GloryB "Other Woman" forum - or on the Keybridge forums that are provided for those having affairs. IMNSHO, preaching on the Divorce forum is tantamount to telling us all that we are going to be condemned to eternal damnation for seeking the love of another when the love of the person we chose for our lifemate has been ripped from our lives. <P>Our God is a kind and loving God, a Just God. The men who wrote the words of the scripture were just that: MEN... human beings, imperfect and capable of error, just like all of us. And after they wrote their words, other men have translated them from their original languages into languages which frequently do not even share the same concepts... therefore making them immediately different from the original human words that were written. And from those translations, hand copying over and over again, errors have crept in, and mistranslations and possibly even the POLITICS of the day have affected what has been passed down... and again, what is written is different from the original human words.<P>Unless you claim to be able to personally read all of the ORIGINAL languages in which the scriptures were written (Aramaic, Hebrew, Greek...), then you cannot possibly know the true thoughts of those men you quote. And you cannot claim that *they* knew the thoughts of God.<P>SpiritOfHope - regardless of your initial intent for posting here, which you have yet to actually share with us, you must realize that your words are like salt in our open and bleeding wounds. And unless you wish your intent to be interpreted as deliberately hurtful, my suggestion is that you seek to bring the truth to the true sinners on the internet and leave we who have not chosen these lots in our lives ALONE.<P>It's bad enough that we have had to make the choices or accept the decisions that our spouses have forced us into, but to have our supportive environment and foundation here torn away by your words ... well it just plain smells to high heaven. And I for one, will not allow this to happen here.<P>------------------<BR>terri<BR><B>Courage</B><P>Whatever course you decide upon,<BR>there is always someone to tell you<BR>that you are wrong.<P>There are always difficulties arising<BR>which tempt you to believe that your <BR>critics are right.<P>To map out a course of action <BR>and follow it to an end <BR>requires courage.<P><I>Ralph Waldo Emerson</I>

<P>The Bible is the Word of God, given by the Living Word of God for our benefit. Without it we walk in darkness, with it we walk in light. I am afraid that it will judge us, our judgements against it will not prevail.<P>These words were not written to condemn, for they can not. Only God himself can do that. They were written to those who have ears to hear and to those whom will receive them. Throughout history their are those who have heeded the Word of God and those who have not. Everyone has the right and leeway to make choices, with lasting consequences.<P>Let me go back a step or two and make a declaration. "Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth and the Life, and no man comes to the Father except through Him." What that means is that there is only one single solitary exclusive way to be saved and that is through the Son of God, Jesus Christ. He has by His own Person opened a door for us to be translated from the creatures we now are to the Children of the Most High God. <P>It also means that everything He said is pure Truth, in His life, in His deeds and in His words. This universe will disintegrate before His words pass away, for they will be proved to be true for all eternity, and everyone who claims otherwise will be a liar. <P>It also means that there is no other way to either know any measure of truth, to experience any other revelation, to benefit from the Love of God, or to avoid what waits for those who do not believe and live for Jesus Christ. Only those who know Him personally and follow Him will be saved, no others - ever.<P>To disagree with the traditional and historic Church and Biblical teachings on divorce and remarriage is one thing, and a sobering thing indeed. But to deny the truthfullness of the men moved by the Holy Spirit, the inspiration of the Scriptures by the Holy Spirit Himself and the reliability of the Bible for us today is quite another.<P>Blaise Pascal wrote "There is sufficient light for those who wish to see, and sufficient darkness for those who do not. Enough clarity to illuminate the elect, and enough darkness to keep them humble. Sufficient darkness to blind the reprobate, and sufficient clarity to condemn them and make them inexcusable."<P>What I mean to say is if you disagree with these teachings, please do not deny the basic and fundamental truths of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and the Church to do so. There is no need. As I said before, everyone is free to make their own choices. That is why we are here. Thats why you are here. We are making choices right now.<P>I do hope that these teachings will cause all of us who are divorced, as I am, or heading that way, to soberly reflect on our decisions and what Jesus and His Apostles told us about divorce and remarriage. If you have an arguement with the thesis, then refute it from history and the Word of God, or else ignore it if is by your decision irrelevant to you.<P>As far as it being here in this posting I can not understand why that would be improper. Since when should God's Word on all points in our life not be welcome with open arms. Why would Christians not want to hear another viewpoint on God's teaching on the subject when they need so desparately the counsel of the Lord in midst of the greatest crisis of their lives?<P>Does anyone here not care what the Church has taught or what the Bible says about divorce and remarriage. I hope not. For out of the Word of God will come the will of God for our lives, the healing of our broken hearts, and the directions He tells us to take. We can trust Him and His Word. He will not let us fall down if we keep our eyes on Him. It's the difference between walking with Him or not. Again - choices.<P>As He spoke to His people through Jeremiah, "So now the Lord says, 'STOP RIGHT WHERE YOU ARE! Look for the old, Godly way, and walk in it. Travel its path, and you will find rest for your souls... Jeremiah 6:16<BR>

Hello again,<P>There is another site that tries to intercept those caught in the immediate early onslaught of the world of hurt and pain of divorce and give them Godly council and help. It's at: <A HREF="http://members.truepath.com/covenantkeeper/help.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://members.truepath.com/covenantkeeper/help.htm</A> <P>SpiritofHope

Hey Spirit,<P>Why don't you post your story here and start conversing with the rest of us instead of preaching at us from on high?<P>No one here is rejecting God and His Word, we are rejecting your interpretation of it.<P><P>------------------<BR><I>Pain is a given, misery is optional.</I>

Hello?<P>Did you get my point SpiritofHope(lessness)? You respond to those who deny your interpretations of God's word. You did not respond to me.<P>Explain for me, if you will, how you are speaking in love to us. Yes, man condemns! How do you relate to the law killing if man cannot condemn? Because as you said yourself, the law of God, that is, the true law of God, SETS US FREE.<P>So if this is the Word of God you are sharing with us, if this is God's true intention -- then please please again I beg you, to give us hope as your name implies!!!! Hope that God has not decreed a verdict and left us alone to wallow in despair. NO. God does NOT do that! And I invite and implore you, that if you know God himself and not just the words of law which you bring to us here, then please tell us of His love, of His care, of how He has brought you to the place of acceptance of this place in your life.<P>I do not deny the inerrant accuracy of the word of God. I do not believe there are many errors in it -- not many!! Even the translating and copying are watched with great care by people who love God and His Word and intend to translate/copy it with His original intent. If any of you have studied the process of canonization you will know that people trust God for the result and do not purpose to deceive or put forth their own word and feelings.<P>But, that does not excuse you SpiritofHope(lessness). You are using the Word -- God's inerrant TRUTH -- to hurt, and possibly maim people's emotions. How do you react to that? Where is the love, hope, encouragement to godliness? You remind me of the Pharisees, who knew the law well. Remember who Christ condemned. It was not the prostitutes and other sinners. It was those who knew the law and applied it without grace and mercy. Beware of becoming a whitewashed sepulcre yourself.<P>But SpiritofHope. Please share with us, your story. Because if you read postings here, you will find many people who love God and who desire to serve him with their whole hearts. We also agree to disagree many times over. But overall, we are here to help each other in the recovery process from the divorce -- regardless of whether we decide to remarry or not.<P>This forum is not about remarriage, per se, but about the divorce recovery process. So Mr. Hope, share your story with us. Maybe it is new to you, maybe you have come through the valley and can offer the "light" of God at the end of the tunnel for someone else. (Excuse me for mixing metaphors) But law and judgement are not that light.

Spirit....If you could, I would appreciate you responding to the questions/points I made in an earlier post. I do agree with your latest post, my issue is not with the Bible itself, nor should any Christian do so. If one does not believe the Bible is the inspired word of God, and that Jesus is the path to salvation, then it is hard to understand how one can describe their religious beliefs as Christian. My concern is that the absolutism doctrines of marriage/divorce/remarriage that you propose are flawed. You readily admit the interpretations are just that, interpretations, and not the direct word of God. But your refutations of others points are simply to repeat your thesis. I have raised some issues (and won't repeat here), and you only replied a bit. It may be we they are of the just agree to disagree variety, and that's ok. I have no real problem in general with your scriptural references, and general interpretations. My issues are when does marriage occur, does freewill insure marital errors can and will be made, and does simply mouthing a vow gaurantee the individuals (one or both) have requisite intent for Biblical marriage. I suspect many marriages are not marriages at all (scripturally speaking) because proper intent was not in place. You cannot find salvation by simply saying I believe in Jesus, no matter how sincere and hopeful you may be. God knows if we have made the leap of faith required in our hearts, no matter how we may decieve ourselves. Likewise I believe simply saying "I do" does not make one scripturally married. No matter our intent, or desire, we are not married if we have not come to this place without unconditional love. In addition, it takes intent on both parties. I am uncertain whether one can have the intent, and the other not, I suspect not, that it is still some sort of denial or blindness on the part of the one thinking they have the right intent, but in any case the marriage cannot exist without proper intent on both parts. If the marriage was not Biblical, then a civil divorce is all that is needed, and people are free to remarry (hopefully rightly now). IMO you (and others of similar persuasion) put the cart before the horse. You assume a civil ceremony, and subsequent living together constitutes scriptural marriage, you are mistaken. But I do agree, that if 2 people with proper intent do marry, oneflesh will occur, they will know it, and the scriptural admonitions will apply, not as coercion, but because they will not seek divorce.

Oops! And I forgot one thing to say -- and that is, that in Biblical times, adultery was an offense punishable by DEATH. So in the normal course of events, your spouse WOULD die if they committed adultery.<P>So then why would they say you were not free to remarry? Why was this an issue at all if adulterers were condemned to death? Exactly because man's law is imperfect and many adulterers remained unpunished. In which case, a man (not a woman mind you) could still divorce his wife, even if they were not punished through lack of evidence or lack of justice.<P>These words were written precisely BECAUSE it was unfair, and people wanted a reason to remarry!!!! Unfortunately, life is not fair and fairness is not the rule of our action. But when God gives a command, He is the one who gives the grace to follow it. He is the true convictor of hearts, while Satan's way is condemnation.<P>I have not come down on this issue. I am uncertain of God's requirements/man's requirements. And as I am not a Bible scolar/theologian as SpiritofHope is, I cannot quote Scripture and church history to support my view.<P>This I know, that God's Spirit is within me. And I trust Him to guide me. I know He does not lead me against His Word -- and I also know that there are many true believing Christians who remarry and do so with the knowlege that God has blessed that union. One thing you have done for me SpiritofHope, you have made me want to talk to these people and find out why they feel free to remarry -- one man held your view for over 25 years! And why did he change his mind? I know it was a faith-struggle for him. I know he counseled long and hard on this issue as I also know that he did not have a prospect in mind when God freed him to remarry. So you have made me curious!!!!! For that I thank you.<P>Also, if you will forgive me for judging you on so little information, I feel you are in a lot of pain over the divorce you face (if I got that part right at least). You are in my prayers and when you are ready to share with us, we are here as imperfect parts of Christ's body, to help you throught the guilt, the depression, the denial, the greif, the acceptance of this situation which you face. As members of Christ's body we are all in this together, and your pain is our pain.