Chris - I like you, we think alike. I couldn't agree more. It's a matter of priorities, and some people have #1 as the priority. I do commend PF for at least going back home, but not for not putting his heart and soul back into his family and still pining after something wrong.<P>My H left for his "happiness". Now a year later we are divorced, and his mother tells me how he is miserable all the time. What? He got the OW didn't he? Wasn't that his soul mate, what he wanted more than anything in life, more than his wife and children? Why is he so miserable? I guess when you lie and do underhanded things to someone who loved you heart and soul, there's just not much feel proud about. He self-proclaimed himself the greatest dad in the world, yet he only bothered to see his kids twice all winter, so far only once this year. He self-destructed and has to look at the object of it every day now (the OW) and I believe somewhere in there he resents her. He will never have the same relationship with his children ever again, it's lost and he doesn't even try. The last time I saw him, I caught him in a moment of regret when I walked away holding my youngest son's hand - I saw him get choked up and have to turn his head. Oh well, as they say, he made his bed.<P>I on the other hand am happy with my life (I have my children every day; I still have the support of my family and friends as well as his - most of which he's lost). I did the right thing trying to save my marriage and my family from destruction. I'm content with my effort and now what I have and look forward to whatever God has in store for me and am thankful He revealed my H's double life to me. I don't come without scars, he ruined my health with his affairs, but life is good again and I'm definitely happy, and getting happier.<P>I just think, PainForever, that you need to hear about the aftermath from other people. Nobody goes their merry way after a divorce, and most likely it is your wife that will do well after you abandon her, not you.<P><P>------------------<BR>Kathy

PF, <P>I think Kathy put it quite well. This 'feeling' you have for the GF is special because she ignited something that was missing. By your choice or not, it was still missing. <P>The point here is that, what have you done now to bring back value to your family? You are with your family for 'the children's sake', but not because you love your wife. Hm...... Why should they be the only ones who show love and care for you? <P>Of course you are resenting your wife vs GF. You don't have to bring value to the Gf, she takes you as you are. Whereas your family needs for all it's members to be contributing value to the family arrangement (even the children). In other words, you have to work for your family's love, the other one is a freebie. Yet nothing in life is free. So is this 'freebie' going to always be a freebie? No..... eventually you will have to start 'owing' a value of sorts to the GF also. You see these Gf's will eventually start demanding the W status from you, sometimes even more than your current wife and family require. Then what????<P>Back to square 1. Nope, -2. No family and maybe no GF. Hm..... call that happiness? Well, if you do, go for it. But you will start the vicious cycle because there are many 'special' friends out there more than happy to start this game all over again. <P>L.

I left before I met the other person, I moved out of the marital home. Once my 2 years are up I could apply for a divorce stating irreconcilable difference. She was aware of that- she didn't stop me. Asking her for divorce wasn't easy, but I honestly thought it was something she wanted as well. <P>How can you put your heart into something when it's not there? I love my children more than the OW, myself or W, and that's why I am here. But my children comes in a package with W. Most of you replying have probably been in the my W's shoes, so you are telling me you would prefer ur spouse to stay in the marriage with you even if they feel this way so strongly? Its been almost 4 months now, W is trying to change her ways and it feels weird. With her it's always been cold and empty and that was what I was comfortable with. There are different types of affairs that occur for different reasons I think. And as a WS<BR>Depending on how and why it occurred will affect them in different ways. <P>Kathy of course I am sad, sad for the failure of my marriage , of what she and I became. We got married young, it was more like the right thing to do at the time. I never felt the way I feel for my GF with her even 10 years back, when we got married. But we had something of course - now it's just dead. If we eventually get a divorce I wish her well. For the well being of my kids it's the only way. Right now I just think that I'll be eternally unhappy.<P>Orchid, I can't explain this but I have an intense desire to make my GF happy. She never really got 100% of my feelings my thoughts, she doesn't even know just how much I love her. There are so many things I want to give her, I want to make her proud of me, I enjoy making her happy. So I do wish I could give 'Value' as u put it to her but I can't. To my kids yes also but between me and W I don't have that feeling. <P>I am sorry if I am upsetting anyone. These are just some of my feelings. I don't think every WS feels this way. Thank you once again for ur responses.<P>

Hi PF,<P>I am not upset at you just disappointed. Let me explain. You see in my situation, I am the BS and H is the WS. H also had and has these intense feelings for OW and wants soooo much to please her. Hm.....<P>Now my feeling is that those 'intense feelings' were stolen from my family, from me and even our son and given to OW. Did H have that right? Not by my standards nor by God's. All your focus and desires to share with OW have been stolen from your family. What would you think if someone broke into your family's home, stole all your furniture and gave it to their mother or GF? Our next door neighbor broke into my dad's van, stole his custom stereo system and installed it in his mother's car that was parked in front of his house right next to ours!!!! I saw it!! <P>Now that was just a stereo, yet I felt like our home was raped...... This stealing of something so personal is even closer to rape, it is a raping of one's family and done by one of it's main members. The one everyone trusted. Hmmph.... Should they be offended??!?!?! What do you think?<P>L.<BR>

Hi Painforever,<P> Noone discounts how you feel towards your GF....what you have to realize is that those feelings WILL NOT last and then you are back to a relationship filled with ups and downs and times you won't even like her.<P>Please get a copy of Private LIes by Frank Pittman....it lays it on the line about the chances of a relationship succeeding from an affair....it's not good. Although you feel you are the exception we have all heard this story a million times.<P>You can restore loving feelings for your W (or build them) if you follow the Harley principles....your W is willing and your children most certainly want an intact family. You don't have to be in "painforever"....honest. It's been done alot around here...but if you stay on the fence with contact etc. your W will give up and then you won't have much of a chance.....LU

Hi there, painforever:<P>Just thought I'd throw in a little encouragement. You are, in many ways where my H was in late 1999. Tho we had never separated, we'd been pretty much "emotionally divorced" for some time. He had fallen deeply in love with a co-worker. He did not tell me about her at first, only that he was unhappy living with me, did not love me, wanted to leave. My first thought was that I was sure as heck not in-love with him either, so go. But, given that we have 2 kids, and that I did love him (while not at all in-love), I asked him to stay and work on things with me.<P>He did, and he tried very hard. He had already cut-off contact with the coworker (tho working at the same company made it very hard not to occasionally see a glimpse of her, or hear her name from someone else, etc). He was being torn in two, and was in incredible pain. We went to one marriage counselor a few times, but it did not help. While he was trying, he was still inlove with her, and kept thinking that one day things might work out with her if they did not work out with us.<P>We started using the MB plan to restore love in your <BR>marriage, and it did help a bit, in that the changes we made made our relationship start to recover a bit. He still had not told me about her, but in his heart, he was trying to let go of her. But, he was still in great pain, and obviously having a lot of difficulty coping. I tried to get him to go to an individual counselor. Finally, he had to tell me about her, and it all came out...how he felt she was the right person for him, how he had never felt a bond like this with anyone else, how he felt she understood him at an almost pyschic level, etc. He was, truly, grieving her loss.<P>He did end up going to an individual counselor a few months later, who did help him work through all this. And, we kept working together, using MB principles. Eventually, we fell back in-love, and it is truly very much the kind that makes you feel like you are walking on air. <P>Of course, it has taken me a while to trust that he truly loved me, after all I'd heard about this OW, and the fact that his hurt over losing her had been so deep. The way the counselor explained it was that he had shut down his feelings for such a long time before he fell for her, that when he did allow her to "reach" him emotionally a little bit, his emotional reaction was dramatic. Sort of like a plant that has been half-starved for water getting a drink, I suppose. <P>Besides all that, there were some issues we had to resolve...not much point in falling back in love if you are going to return to the same ways of relating that lead you to fall out to begin with. But, it IS very possible to recover the love that you and your wife once had, and to make it much stronger and deeper than before. It is a lot of work, but so are most worthwhile things.<P>So, to tie up this long narrative, at this point, we are happy & in-love, and truly do have a deeper, more soul-touching relationship than ever before. We did not return to the same marriage we'd had, but a much better one than even in our most in-love early days. He no longer feels that she was the "right" person for him, and he often tells me how glad he is that we are still together, and so much in love w/each other. <P>Personally, I think she WAS a good match for him in many ways. If he had not been married & with kids, I think they could have been happy together. Not necessarily happier or less happy than we are, just different. Just as I have met a few guys I could have been happy with also. I guess what I am saying is that I do not believe that there is only 1 person you can love madly and truly, and be happy with. I think that there are many people one could build a deep, true love with...part of the equation is marrying someone you can be in-love with, and the other part is building, re-building and nurturing that love. If you loved your wife enough to marry her, chances are good that you two do have the basic ingredients to have a deep, true love between you. And, if you are both willing to work at it, I think you have a great shot.<P>Good luck--<P>Kathi<BR>

Wow, Kathi!<P>PF I think you should also remember that even if you choose to leave your family (which I call the path of least resistance because I love that Leann Rhymes?? song), you and the OW won't have a beautiful existence. You will have an X who may have a very bitter reaction. You will have a fight on your hands in court. Your children will suffer, and it won't be by anything anyone does on purpose to them, they will just suffer by osmosis. They will be caught in the middle. Divorces rarely end up friendly unless it is desired by both people. You will both be financially wiped out, but more likely your wife will and that is devastating when you have little ones to feed. I have a lawyer bill here that I will be paying until I'm 80. I mean, at first, my H was willing to give me anything I wanted and "take care" of us, he just wanted out. Well, by the time the OW got her two cents in (because after all, him being nice was going to take away from her lot in life) he tried to leave me with the clothes on our back. Thankfully, we got a great judge that saw thru most of his games.<P>So he's miserable now, with his soul-mate. They fight about money all the time. If you ask me, their soul-mate relationship was a little more shallow than he thought, but it cost him everything and his family to have it because his "feelings" were so strong. Guess what, he's even cheating on her too now. He basically is using her now for a place to live.<P>Feelings change. I still believe if you can put all the hard work and effort into your marriage first, the rewards far exceed leaving. You have much more to gain (and keep) and your children will not suffer (provided you try to keep their lives normal in the meantime because fixing your marriage is trying and takes TIME. T.I.M.E. Four months is a drop in the bucket, really.<P>Take care.<P>------------------<BR>Kathy

Excellent post friends... Kathy, what an inspiring story. I'm so glad you told it! I didn't know you were on the path of reconciliation. Who helped you with your PLAN once you both decided to work it out? That's about where I'm at and my H is in the same boat as PF - in fact, could be PF for all I know... no, not exactly but the overseas gf rings a little too close to home. And the analogy of a plant getting water is another one that hits... so, my H is in this marriage for the kids. As you can see by my other post, we ended up buying a house together that has an "in-law" arrangement so that he could live upstairs and the kids will have free access to both of us. I'm NOT for the separation/divorce but like you Kathi... I want to give it a try. I love my H but lack the "in love" feelings but feel we have a commitment to work on and don't believe it is hopeless.<P>So, PF, from someone who's in a similar boat as your W, look at these principles on this board... commit to trying to work through your differences and trying to at the very least be a co-parenting team. Once you've identified your and your W's emotional needs you can slowly rebuild a relationship that is friendly. No promises of reconciliation - that my be too much for you right now. But, the bible says, "If at all possible and is up to you, live at peace with one another."<P>Just take it one day at a time... give your kids and their mother your 100% for now... if you exercise the principles on this site, you will naturally fall "out of love" totally with your spouse, as will she towards you. But, for the kids' sake, please think not only of yourself and your needs... they didn't ask to come into this world and you have an obligation to be a good steward to the Gifts that God has given to you. <P>Read about taker/giver on the MB principles also... <P>Keep posting and bare your soul here. It's an anonymous board and so it's really safe to lay it all out there... not for permission but for honesty - to see things maybe from a different perspective.<P>Cheers!<P>------------------<BR>We cannot do everything at once... but we can do something at once

<B> so you are telling me you would prefer ur spouse to stay in the marriage with you even if they feel this way so strongly?</B><BR>No. We are telling you to do EVERYTHING you can to make it work. You don’t make yourself love someone & get the feelings back. You do the things you used to when you fell in love the first place. If you do pleasurable activities with someone, eventually you will associate that person with pleasure/happy time.<P>If you had met the ow & had nothing but arguments & pain, you never would have liked her at all.<P>Why would anyone stay in a marriage just “for the children” & NOT want to make it better for themselves.<P>------------------<BR>Prayers & God Bless!<BR>Chris<BR>For relationship info check out <A HREF="http://www.pcisys.net/~chriscal1/resources.html" TARGET=_blank>Marriage & Relationship Resources</A>

Sorry to pick on you again PF,<P>It seems to me you REFUSE to be happy at home. My only comment is that the source of your happiness cannot be your wife or your GF. People who rely on other people for their happiness end up miserable. YOU are responsible for you being happy. That's why counseling might help, to learn to be happy and content with what you have and happiness should come from inside (and in my case it's from God, not counseling). When you find that kind of happiness, being happy with you, doing the right thing comes naturally and you'd do just as well with whatever your circumstances were, rich or poor, sick or healthy (remember those vows?). Don't make yourself dependent on another person for happiness because no other person is that perfect and he/she will eventually fall short, and there you'll be miserable again.<P>I am going on to much less, from a big ole brand new 4 bedroom house to probably a little starter home (if that). No money. No job. Actually nowhere to go at this point and two kids/two dogs to take there. But I feel fine and my kids aren't worried either. I guess this is where I've come to because in my situation, I just may never get married again and it sure feels better to be happy anyway with me who I am - and that DEPENDS on NO ONE (but trusts in God emphatically).<P>Take care. <P>------------------<BR>Kathy

Your situation is helping me discover my own feelings in my marriage. Please see my new post "What I want to say to my Husband"<p>[This message has been edited by cantletgo (edited June 04, 2001).]

Ya' all are being to hard on PF. His wife had an affair (if I read your original post correctl). He moved out (separated) after a period of time trying work things out. His wife did nothing to invite or encourage him home until he met someone new. Suddenly his wife is now interested in making the marriage work. It is possible that she just can't stand to lose and doesn't actually love PF. I would proceed very carefully with wife and make no commitments. A person's past behavior speaks loudly on future expectations.

Well, engineer_bob, I just went and read through this thread again, and I can't find where anyone is being hard on painforever at all. If anyone has condemned him or criticized him for his actions, I missed it. All we've done is explain the psychology of his feelings and the nature of happiness. We are trying to help him see how best to proceed, not rip into him for what he has (or has not) done.<P>What did I miss?<BR>

Just ignore "engineer bob", he pops up from time to time, insists the wife is having an affair (whether that has anything to do with the original post or not), and that the man should leave (whether he's indicated he wants to or not). Sort of an odd way to "help" new posters to a marriagebuilding site.

You say should you suffer the day you die because you have to stay with her?<P>You promised to love and cherish her till the day you died. And won't she feel a big loss and suffer because you want your happiness? Think about it. And you most likely won't be happy if you choose your girlfriend. As you read the posts, you can see marriages from affairs seldom last. You will have nothing. Your wife will not want you back because you inflicted much pain on you. But yet you and she will hurt for the rest of your life because you were concerned with your "happiness" at the moment.<P>I too am dealing with lots of pain so that "he can be happy now."

No it’s all right none of you guys are being too hard on me. I believe my W is honest and determined when she says she wants to try again. Whether she really loves me in the way she says I don’t think she’s even clear of that herself but that’s almost irrelevant to my decision in staying or the way I am feeling.<P>I mentioned in a reply to CLG’s new thread that writing in here is probably not best for me. The more I write the more I am convinced that my marriage is really dead. As I exercise my feelings I know that it can’t change since I don’t want it to. <P>I read postings in here and I see couples trying to reconcile after being cheated not once, twice but even three times, people reconciling for years with almost no progress or even worse like me where one party reluctantly stays almost on auto remote and the other party goes on pretending everything is normal when in actual fact the marriage is a farce. I hardly talk of my day to day experience because there’s nothing to it. <P>Martha yes I do remember my wedding vows. I am not religious at all, I do not believe in god, I think the ceremony of marriage is only of a symbolic gesture. Will she feel a big loss? After 5 years of coldness and emptiness with 2 years of me being physically not there, she probably won’t feel that much difference. Perhaps she’ll miss the superficial chats we have. I honestly feel that in the long run she’ll be happier without me. Being like this is not good for me or her. The only think that held me back is my children, I feel that they deserve me giving it a last shot. <P>Whether I’ll end up with my GF I don’t know. After the pain I have inflicted on her and now that she’s getting used to me not being around, I am not sure she’ll take me back even if she <BR>

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by painforever:<BR><B>I mentioned in a reply to CLG’s new thread that writing in here is probably not best for me. The more I write the more I am convinced that my marriage is really dead. As I exercise my feelings I know that it can’t change since I don’t want it to.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Ah, yes. The old self-fulfilling prophecy...<P>There's no question about it. It's awfully hard (though not always impossible) to succeed at something when you are trying to fail.<P>I tend to agree with you that participating in this forum is not likely to help you sabotage yourself.<BR><p>[This message has been edited by GnomeDePlume (edited June 04, 2001).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by painforever:<BR><B>Martha yes I do remember my wedding vows. I am not religious at all, I do not believe in god, I think the ceremony of marriage is only of a symbolic gesture. Will she feel a big loss? After 5 years of coldness and emptiness with 2 years of me being physically not there, she probably won’t feel that much difference. Perhaps she’ll miss the superficial chats we have. I honestly feel that in the long run she’ll be happier without me. Being like this is not good for me or her. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>There it is - "what I am doing is best for EVERYONE". Human nature really fascinates me. As long as I have been coming to this site, it never ceases to amaze me how this theory comes out of the mouths of those who are leaving or who are contemplating leaving.<P>At least PF you can see that the people posting here are in fact not out to attack you. Rather they are just hoping that you may stop for one minute and think that maybe, just maybe what you are thinking "is" wrong. Reading through this thread you have gotten advice and stories from those on both sides of the fence. From new members and old members alike. No one is going to convince you one way or the other. But, do listen to what they BS say, because that will be your wife if you decide to leave. While the spouses that are betrayed and "left" usually can't get into the minds of the spouses such as yourself, they can tell you EXACTLY how they feel/felt when they are going (went) through all this themselves.<P>I am now divorce - not by my choice. I am happy. But you know what, I was happy before I met my wife, while we were married, even while we were getting divorced. My happiness is not dependent on her, or anyone else for that matter. With that said I told my xwife one thing and that was "Don't ever, ever say that what you are doing is the best for us both and for "my" happiness, not just yours". That is the biggest rationalization of all rationalizations. Don't dishonor your wife by ever telling her that - even if you don't love her anymore, have some simple courtesy to her as a person. If you decide to leave, it is for NO OTHER person than for yourself. It is no plainer than that.<P>If that is how you live your life, I am not going to condemn you - from what you say, you don't have a really high outlook or respect for marriage in the first place.<P>My wife spent the past 2 years re-writing our whole relationship of 10 years. Now that I look back with an almost "healed" heart, I truly see just how ridiculous what she did was. While we were getting divorced I listened to her say much of what you are saying and almost began to believe some of it myself - "we weren't meant to be" "there is someone better out there for each of us" "we never were REALLY happy" "maybe we were never in love". Now, I can look back without the emotion using just logic and my memory - The bottom line was we were so in-love when we met, when we married. Day in and day out while there were problems, we were happy and we did love each other, UNTIL the day came when she <P>CHOSE NOT TO LOVE ME ANYMORE.<P>From that day forward, her mind was centered around "how can I rationalize my decision to give up on our marriage and leave". One thing you can't argue at all and that is that our brains are extremely powerful things! We can think through and solve all kinds of problems - we can use them to create and destroy. So when you make a choice (YOU MAKE A CHOICE) that it is easier to NOT love someone than it is to love someone, your mind will assist you in building that reality. That is what we call "the fog".<P>If you choose to leave and follow-up with the other woman, things may in fact work out for the both of you, but the odds and history says they probably won't. When the butterflies of the new relationship "wear off" and life takes on its usual form, only then maybe "the fog" will lift - or you may be able to simply rationalize the new situation to fit in with your thinking once again.<P>But just as your mind will give you the opportunity to leave and make it seem like the best thing for everybody, so can it give you the power to fix and save your marriage - IF, you ask it to. For without your "wanting to fix it" NOTHING, ABSOLUTETLY NOTHING you do will fix it.<P>To fix your marriage I think requires faith and since you say you have no faith in your marriage, I fear it may already be too late for your wife. For it sounds like you don't even hold marriage to any level higher than a handshake. That makes me a little sad for both you and your wife, and actually even your new girlfriend if you choose to go after her. Without honoring marriage, what sense of security can you offer anyone who falls in love with you.<P>I would never tell you to stop feeling what you feel - because you can't. But like someone wrote previously, feelings are tied to behaviors and your behaviors are tied to your thoughts. If you are able to begin to think about wanting, truly wanting, to save your marriage, I promise you that ideas and solutions will begin to appear in your thoughts about what you can do to do just that.<P>Finally remember that your past does not dictate what will happen in your future. My aunt and uncle have been married close to fifty years and early on they had a lot of trouble in their relationship. She ended up leaving him for a short while. Now her favorite saying is "everyone wife should leave their husband once in a marriage!". Of course she says it jokingly, but what she and he both knew that just because they had problems in their marriage AT THAT TIME, it did not mean that their marriage would continue to be bad, especially once they recognized their problems and BOTH chose to try and fix them. That all happened several decades ago and I am so happy to say that since that point they have been one of the happiest couples I have known.<P>Please don't take what I say here as an attack. And don't think that anyone else is doing that either. We all just care so much about marriage - our own as well as that of others. Only with knowledge can you make wise decisions. And a good decision is not always the one that is going to make you instantly happy.<P>Give it all some thought.<P>Mike<P>------------------<BR>God always waits for the right time to do the right thing in the right way.

This is the first time I've ever posted anything or even talked about this with anyone. But I am so confused and your question really hit home. I don't love my H anymore. We have been together about 9 years. We were kind of pushed to get married and now have a wonderful daughter who is almost 6. I was so lonely I contacted and old boyfriend and started an affair about 2 months ago. I know my H will be devastated when he learns of the affair and that I want to leave him. He really has done nothing wrong. I fell out of love with him. I know how you feel about your GF, on one hand it's crazy to think that it can work out. But on the othr hand why can't it. I know my BF and I could be very happy. We both are married and he has no small children. He would love my daughter and be a good husband. We have much more in common than my husband and I do and I am just so confused as you must be. ANy words of advice or comments are ewlcome.

So Tired... very VERY good post/advice. What you said was truely amazing and insightful. It really helped me see somethings in my own marriage...<P>Dreambaby... PLEASE..PLEASE... break off your affair and find out what your true feelings are. Right now all you have is tunnel vision. Go back and re-read SoTired2000's post above yours. It was your responsibilty to tell your husband that you were lonely. You need to tell your husband your feelings and the truth about your affair.