I don't know if I belong here or even if I belong in Marriage Builders anymore.<P>For those that don't know any of my story and those who only know part of it let me give you a bit of a history:<P>Arik and I met in 1987, while we were both involved in a youth minisry ( I had decided to take some time off school to do this - I wanted to be a teacher), when he was 18 and I was 19 - the attraction was not instant but grew intense over a relatively short time. Dating was forbiden - we were supposed to foceussed on the ministry but we were young and wanted what we wanted.<P>We decdied to get married and did in 1989 - we were still so young. I gave up on school and Arik gave up the freedom of being a young man with no responsibility and dreams of persuing a writing career.<P>And so we embarked on our life together, with the full intention of being better than the people ( our parents ) who had gone before us.<BR>We both had (and still have) so many problems:<BR>He has huge anger management problems - he can be very cruel when he gets angry and has been. Because of his upbringing he doesn't know how to function in a normal relationship. He has been verbally, emotionally and mentally abusive to me. He also has depressive tendencies - he blames himself for my not completing school and many other things.<BR>I am a codependent. I have expended all that I am in trying to make him happy but have never quite succeeded. My lifelong motto seems to be "Things will be better when I can do "such and such" to make Arik happy" The problem with that is nothing ever does. He is unhappy on the inside and nothing external will fix that. I feel that all that I once was is slowing slipping away and soon there will be nothing left.<BR>Despite all these things we love each other deeply. I cannot imagine my life without him, but I don't know if that is because I really haven't had a life without him.<P>On with the history:<BR>After 10 years of marriage he had an affair with a coworker that lasted about 8 months. that was a huge wake up call to both of us. Even with the way he treated me I always trusted him and <B>knew</B> that he would never hurt me in that way. It hurt beyond belief and still does I must admit.<BR>We have been working through it and trying to rebuild our marriage but have come to a point where we don't see things getting better.<BR>Arik is still Arik and I am still me. He sees no use in going to counselling or anger management seminars - he apent his childhood and teen years doing that. He says he knows that it is wrong, he knows what he should do but even when he feels the anger welling inside him he cannot control it and the anger just takes over.<BR>I am so tired of trying to make him happy, of trying to make him feel better about the way our lives have turned out, of telling him it is not his fault that I didn't go back to school, of trying to keep the kids quite when I can see the anger welling in him ( he has never layed a hand on them ). <BR>I am worried about the kids - I don't want our son to become him or our daughters to marry him.<BR> <BR>And so it comes to the main topic of my post.<P>Recently we have been talking about separation and possibly divorce. The discussions have been calm and rational for the most part. Arik doesn't want to be away from me or the kids but at the same time knows that the way he acts when he gets angry is not condusive to a good home life for everybody and my trying everything I can to make sure he doesn't get angry is not only unfair, it doesn't work.<BR>In my heart I honestly agree with him - I am drained and feel like most of the essence of what was me no longer exists. And yet I feel guilt in this. I don't want to cause him pain. I don't want his kids to be away from him or have him be apart form the kids. (not even for a day).<BR>I am lost. <BR>I am tired.<BR>I am sad.<BR>I feel empty.<BR>I feel like a failure - I have failed him, I have failed my family, I have failed his family, I have failed my children, I have failed the life I had envisioned for myself.<P>I don't know what I want out of this post.<BR>Maybe just to write it down and get it out. Who knows. <BR>I don't really feel much better.<BR>I don't know what will bring me to the place where I will feel good about any decision that is made.<P>

HE FAILED not you HE FAILED. You did everything in your power to make him happy....he failed you...He was the depressed one...he has the temper...he had the affair...don't blame yourself.....it was his doing....you did all in your power and you deserve a break...take one and get him out of your house....he is bringing you down..down..down.Don't blame yourself for other people's mistakes.

Hi Nicole,<P>It's me, Sheryl (new_beginning)...<P>Well, I saw that Arik had posted, and assumed (wrongly, I gather) that things were getting better.<P>...sigh...<P>I am so sorry for your pain. It is VERY REAL. <P>I guess I'll go out on a limb here... I know how much you love, adore, worship Arik. His anger has ALWAYS concerned me. He is verbally abusive, at the least. I consider that ABUSE. He has treaded on the borderline of physical abuse with YOU, no not your kids, but YOU. That is not good. <P>I had the same types of problems with David. I made every excuse for him... he's tired, he works hard, he doesn't know what he's doing... oh, a million excuses.<P>One day, I literally woke up and realized that this was not NORMAL, nor was it GOOD. It was BAD. I was ABUSED, and HURT, and ALONE because nobody really understood. Here I had this beautiful husband who treated me like crap. In my case, yes, I made a HUGE mistake that you never did. I had an affair. That only added fuel to the already raging fire. <P>Nicole, please take care of yourself. I want to tell you to get out. It's been too long, too hard, too scary for you. I want you, dearheart, to be a happy and healthy mommy!!<P>Love, <P>Sheryl

Nicole,<P>If Arik is up to it, ask him to email me. I have dealt with a lot of the issues you say he is dealing with and I might be able to give him a little insight in how I have overcome these.<P>You two have have come too far and gone through too much to just walk away. I feel in my gut that you can get out this rut. <P>I know I have never communicated with him directly but we have posted to each other many times in the past. If he's willing and will open up I will be glad to share my experience.<P>Bill

Nicole,<P>I haven't posted to you much, if ever. But I can remember Arik in his early posts sounding so much my STBX H. In fact I may have stayed away because the similarities were so striking that I just couldn't be rational in responding!<P>My H had an affair and left our marriage. But all the issues leading up to that were much like your circumstances, his anger, his temper, my trying to make him happy, my trying to just stay out of his way and finally my withdrawal emotionally. But for us all this happened with us totally unconscious of it taking place. We had huge problems without ever really acknowledging them.<P>My H too said he wanted to leave because he couldn't stand the kids seeing him angry all the time (well, some of that was a rationalization because there was - and still is- an OW in the picture, but some was very real). I argued for a long time how much better it would be for the kids to see him actually change his behavior (his anger and the affair) - not just run from it. But this couldn't happen Nicole until he hit his own personal nadir.<P>You have a jump on this already - something that is usually so hard for us fixer types to grasp - that nothing you do can MAKE him happy. And the other side is also true, nothing you do can keep him from hitting bottom. In fact you may be enabling him to keep up the same old misbehavior.<P>Once my H and I separated, and I was no longer there to soak up the anger, things started to change. He was warned and reprimanded and work, he had to start therapy or lose his job, and all these responsibilities and consequences were solely his. He is still with OW (though they live apart), our marriage was not saved, but I do see him through his treatment of the kids becoming more aware and more able to control his responses to his emotions.<P>Some here may counsel that you should be able to work this out while married - but you haven't so far. And Arik is not willing/able to accept that his anger has such consequences or even if he sees this, he is still dodging responsibility for changing. And he may need to do this for some time yet. No one can really ever say what will be the event that causes someone to completely reevaluate themselves, and commit to changing. Meanwhile, stay on the same path and you will have nothing left to give and nothing left of yourself.<P>So in my view all you can really do right now is take care of yourself. This is not failure. Far from it. Focus on you and reclaiming those lost joys that you forsook while trying to cheer a man whose hurts are too deep to be soothed. Let go the responsibility for his feelings - this doesn't mean you lovebust uncontrollably or are deliberately cool, but that you focus first and formost on you. So you can be there for those precious children.<P>My H and I were unable to accomplish this while together. I was so entangled it took me much time and space and distance to really view myself as separate. And I do believe that as long as we stayed together he would have willingly loaded me with responsibility for his anger and unhappiness - and I would likely have accepted it.<P>But now each of us are truly changing I believe. It is hard and painful and does not change the fact that we are divorcing. But I really feel the change is positive, even if the circumstances are sad and tragic.<P>Big hugs to you both - be not afraid.<P>Starpony

Oh, Nicole....<P>{{{{{{{{{{{{{Nicole}}}}}}}}}}}}}<P><BR>I'm not sure what to say right now. Just saw this and wanted you to know I was here. Like Sheryl, I read Arik's post and was so proud of him....I had thought things were getting good. Heck, I've used HIM as an example to several on this board.<P>Tell my "adopted son" I'd like to hear from him, too, if he's ready.<P>And, Nicole, we do love you.<P>Love,<P>Lori

Nicole,<P>I just wanted you to know that living with a person with the kind of anger problems you have lived with does immense psychological damage on the other person.<P>My exH also had anger problems only he was a passive-aggressive so he would only occasionally become physically angry. He would never hit me or my daughter he would either hit or wall or worse yet he would slam his fist into his head.<P>We had been married for about 3 or 4 years when I remember telling a co-worker that I thought that he was going to chip away at me until I was all gone. By the end of the marriage he pretty much had succeeded (we were married 12 years. For awhile I would challenge him on his behavior and then I just gave up. However I still did everything I could to prevent him from being angry and it was exhausting.<P>He left home 1/00 for a job out-of-state and through a series of e-mails I found out about his affair with a co-worker. We divorced 12/00 and he married his OW 1/01.<P>I think in a way I was fortunate that he never wanted to work things out with me, never wanted to reconcile. He also never wanted to go to counseling so therefore he has not made any attempt to change himself. He says he will change for his new wife but time will tell.<P>I was so co-dependent on him that it has taken me about a year to finally not be afraid of him any longer. He was never a good husband to me and over time he ceased being a good person. <P>Your life can be better without these type of personalities in your life. They need to get help but they are the only ones that can do that for themselves. <P>I have realized that being single and alone (I do have 80% custody of my 12 yo D) is better than being with a verbally abusive critical angry person.<P>Pat

Hi Nicole,<P>I'm so very sorry. I wish there was more that I could say or do. Please know that you are in my thoughts and prayers, and all of us on this forum who "know" you and care about you want to be here for you. Post anywhere you please, anytime you want. WE WILL BE HERE.<P>Peppermint

Hello all,<P>Sorry it took me so long to respond, I am still in a place that I am not really sure of.<P>Do I want a divorce?<BR>No, not really, but I certainly can't go on like this. It is pretty much an endless cycle of anger, depression, and uptimes but lately the uptimes are getting to be shorter.<BR>I still love him so much and feel so bad about feeling this way. And yet know that I have to become me again and really take care of my kids. <P><BR>Thanks so much for all of your support.<P>God Bless you all<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole

I very rarely post on this forum (I'm usually on EN), but your post caught my eye.<P>You are absolutely right. You CAN'T and SHOULDN'T tolerate any more abuse of any kind. Your children are seeing it and they are watching you tolerate it. You must set this boundary for the sake of yourself and for your kids.<P>That doesn't mean you have to separate or divorce. You have stated that the way things are can no longer be tolerated. The ball is in his court. He can go get help for anger management. He might need some deeper psychotherapy than simple behavioral management. He needs to address the wounds from his childhood that made him this angry to begin with. If he decides to give up his marriage and his childrent out of a reluctance to seek the help he knows he needs, that is his decision and there is nothing you can do about it. <P>But, if he does seek the help, I beleive your family CAN remain intact.<P>But there is nothing more that you can do to make that happen. YOU have not failed at all. You have done everything you can do. The best and only thing you can do at this piint is to stand your ground. Stand firm in your decision not to tolerate his outbursts. It's up to him to do something about it. You can't "fix" him. Only he can. And he has to truly want to.

(((((((((((((((Nicole)))))))))))))))))))<P>let's talk....<P>so......how's it goin'?.....<P><BR>Dylan<P>------------------<BR>"The journey into darkness has been long and cruel, and you have gone deep into it."<BR>~ A Course in Miracles

Welcome to marriage builders!! Your H and you have been thru alot together. Have you both tried to work thru the Love Is A CHoice Series from Minirth Clinic? It helps with codependency relationships. The Emotional needs board and recovery board may giving you insight of what other couples in your situation have done or are doing. Of course we are all here to help you. Counseling is actually a guiding process that shines a light for you during difficult times. I don't know where I would be without it. My prayers are with you!!

PL - <P>Unlike a lot of others here, I don't know a lot about your situation. But you are aware of your codependency.<P>What have you done about it? <P>~Amy

hello again to you all,<P>Dylan<P>Thanks for the hugs...they are always appreciated...did you get my email? I sent it yesterday??<P>I sent one to you too Sheryl, to both email addies - not sure about one of them - the email will explain.<P>I am doing okay.<P>As I am becoming more aware of my own codependent actions and how they have perpetuated some of the cycle that is part of the pattern Arik and I have created I am able to stop before I allow myself to fall into it (trying to make him feel better about himself after he has an angry outburst and falls into to the "I'm so sad because I'm such an [censored]" mode).<BR>I hope to find a good book on codependcy that I can work through myself so I can stop the self destructive behaviors that I have.<BR>As far as Arik and I being together - for now I don't think that is going to be a possibility. I will need to see some real concrete changes in his behavior before we can be together. I left last year only to return after he promised to get help - he tried but we both feel into our old patterns and it didn't last very long. <BR>I can stop some parts of the destructiveness in our relationship ( the making him feel better , the always trying to please and take care of him in every aspect of our lives ) but there is little to nothing I can do to stop the angry outbursts, the name calling, the general meaness that takes over when he gets angry.<P>Anyway, that's where it sits right now. We are making plans for separation. It will be hard but I think we may end up better for it.<P>Thanks again to you all for your input, support and help.<P>------------------<BR>Love and Prayers<BR>Nicole <p>[This message has been edited by Patient Love (edited June 20, 2001).]