I would love to open up a discussion about our comments on the thread about telling the children. Obviously we are at totally opposite ends of the spectrum on our beliefs in this situation and I&#8217;d like the opportunity to learn more about yours while sharing mine with you.<p>So if you&#8217;re game: LET&#8217;S GET IT ON<p>[ March 19, 2002: Message edited by: LostHusband ]</p>

What would you say to your kids if instead of committing the crime of adultery your wife had left to avoid a charge of grand theft auto?

Well first off that is totally different circumstances and had she left to avoid charges then the relationship with the kids wouldn't be in question here.<p>I chose to not tell my children about a lot of things in the divorce. Heck, still today, I don't tell them about what their mom is doing. I am not defending her action nor will I lie to my children if they ask. I have taught my girls that affairs are wrong and that divorce is bad. They know that much. <p>I huge factor in my decision was the relationship that I want my children to have with their mom. We have joint custody and each have the girls about half the time. So if what you suggest is true then if I tell them, their relationship with their mom will be just the same. Right now the only thing my girls know at all is that their mom wanted the divorce and that in of itself has hurt her relationship with them. Granted things were basically backwards in our house and my X had more of the typical dad relationship with the girls, so the relationship wasn't ideal to begin with.<p>I suggest that all types of love are conditional to some extreme. The conditions and the extreme are the variables. <p>So based upon my girls current relationship with their mom, their ages, and the devastation that had already been done I chose not to tell. If they approach me sometime in the future with questions I will not lie, but by the same token I may say "It's none of your business".

Have you sought counseling for your girls, or as a family? Maybe it's time. Talk to the counselor (a professional) about what is appropriate for their ages.

Newly,<p>I do have my girls in individual counseling as well as family counseling with me. Their mom will not do counseling with them but that to me that really isn&#8217;t the purpose of this thread.<p>My curiosity lies in knowing what possible positive can come from me telling them about their mom&#8217;s infidelity?

In my case it wasn't really an issue of telling the kids about their father's infidelity, since he introduced them to the OW a little over a month after he left.<p>What are your kids going to think when they are older and figure out that their mother committed adultery? If there parents have made excuses like "we just didn't get along" or whatever, they are going to feel betrayed all over again, by the BS as well as the WS. <p>I wish someone had filled me in on the fact divorces almost never happen except in cases of infidelity, especially in long term marriages, and I wish I had had a clue that adultery was so common in long term marriages. I wish I had known that sudden, inexplicable anger and a desire to have time to themselves on the part of a spouse or boyfriend meant only one thing. I wish I had known that it was possible for a person to undergo a complete personality transformation. It would have saved me a lot of misery, not to mention it might have saved me from financial devastation. <p>My kids know that I believe that their father is suffering from depression. Depression has a strong genetic component, and I want them to recognize the signs - if when they are adults they suffer from depression I would much rather see them get help than desert their families. I don't want history to repeat itself - and the best way to prevent that is openness. <p>And how is the crime of adultery different from auto theft? Both are wrong, both are crimes against society, and adultery directly hurts far more people, in general. <p>It makes me very sad to think that anyone would consider all forms of love conditional. It is bad enough that some people think love between two adults is conditional, but it would be absolutely horrible if the love of a parent for his or her child were conditional. There is nothing my kids could do that would cause me to stop loving them. I am sure that the mothers of serial killers still love them - they may not feel safe anywhere near them, but that doesn't mean they don't love their children.

LH,<p>Well, I'm not Nellie, but I wanted to write about why I chose to tell my children.<p>Let me first say that I am now divorced, after a 21 year marriage. I was betrayed by my husband twice, he is still with #2, a woman he had worked with for 20+ years...a woman my children have known all of their lives.<p>I'm not saying that telling the kids everything is good...and I don't know how old your kids are. Mine are all teens.<p>My ex will never forgive me for telling them...I had no wish for reconcilliation when I did so. I did not do this to hurt my children's father I did it because someone had to start telling these kids the D*%@ truth, and I was all they had.<p>I thought hard about the months prior to discovery. The hardest time in my life...when I knew something was terribly wrong, I asked constantly for honesty, I snooped, I followed, I went to damn phycics. I would have done ANYTHING if someone would have just told me the truth. I was looked straight in the face dozens of times and lied to. I was made to feel like I was crazy, he laughed at me when I tried to find out where he had been, why he had turned off his cell phone...why his stories just didn't add up.<p>I was NOT going to put my children through that. They would NOT be lied to by me. Sure, I sugar-coated the rough stuff. I was purposly fuzzy on some questions they asked me. <p>They still love their father, but he has some work to do with them...and I am helping him as much as I can with learning how to be a parent - he has them just a few days a month, and it there is usually some sort of catastrophe when he has them.<p>So, it's your call as you know. Seems like you know your kids and know how much they can handle, but someday...when they are older...they will need honesty, just like we betrayed do.<p>Ask any BS...the lies hurt worse than the betrayal. I didn't want my kids to hurt that bad.<p>allison

I told my d, who was 11 at the time that her mother was committing adultery. It does not seem to have any affect on her relationship with her mother although I think she is starting to understand her mother puts herself first.<p>I have not told my son anything. I think he is learning fast that his mother puts herself first. He is now 11.<p>Everything I've read says don't tellthat it is usually an attempt to get the kids on your side.

Nellie1 & Others &#8211;<p>FYI &#8211; My girls are 12, 9, & 7<p>First off, I have already mentioned that I won&#8217;t lie to my children. They know that I was not the one who wanted the divorce but they don&#8217;t know the reason for the divorce. I would never try to feed them crap like &#8220;We&#8217;re not in Love&#8221; or &#8220;We&#8217;ve grown apart&#8221;. I also won&#8217;t make excuses for my X. However, I will choose to withhold information. My girls know that I am perfectly honest with them, they also know that at some point if they are interested that I will share all my files and information about the divorce with them.<p>Yes my girls are smart and maybe they have already put 1 & 1 together. They can plainly see that their mom puts OM in front of spending time with them. <p>I can&#8217;t help but to think that if I were to come forward with the information that I have now that it would hurt the already weakened relationship that my girls have with their mom and it would cause more friction between my X and I interfering with our ability to co-parent. I want my girls to have the best relationship with their mom possible. Afterall, shouldn&#8217;t we encourage that. They may never know of their mom&#8217;s actions or they may already know, I just don&#8217;t believe it my place to bring that subject up. The good book tells us that only God should judge adulterers.<p>As a adult child who was told everything about my dad&#8217;s affairs, I can tell you first hand that the news was devastating. I lost respect for a man I idealized and I will never respect him in the same way again. I didn&#8217;t speak to him for over 3 years. I felt like I was forced to choose sides in the matter and the decision was pretty simple. That is something that I never want my children to have to do and I&#8217;ve went to great lengths to ensure that they don&#8217;t have to &#8220;choose&#8221; sides in any matters. They have the right to love each of us without influence from the other.<p>Maybe saying that &#8220;All&#8221; love is conditional was a bit strong. But I think that we would be blinded if we didn&#8217;t acknowledge that most forms of love could be heavily influenced by outside forces. Yes I do believe that a childs love for a parent can be torn apart by the other parent, as it was by my mother. My father and I have made amends but our relationship is forever changed. Don&#8217;t get me wrong I am not blaming my mother for anything, but the fact is that with the knowledge she chose to share with me, I made the decision to cut my dad out of my life. Of course, you are 100% correct when you say that a parent&#8217;s love for a child is unconditional.<p>So I guess my bottom line is that I want to continue having an awesome relationship with my girls and I want them to have a great relationship with their mother. I look at telling them many sorted details as something that will hamper all relationships involved.<p>So I ask, what &#8220;positive&#8221; result can come by me telling them?

What positive result can come from you telling them?<p>They will always know, for the rest of their lives that they had one parent that told them the truth. Maybe then, when it comes time for them to choose whether to lie or tell the truth, they will have learned a lesson from you, their dad, that there are people in the world they can trust. <p>I say this from experience.

I completely and utterly believe in telling them the truth.<p>In our situation...<p>My ex and I told the truth - me more than him. Me and my big mouth told my kids about everything. Now, they were older, teenagers at the time, and I had *always* been honest to a fault, so why would I stop now?<p>I think that's the key. If you never told them the truth before, it would feel foreign, I guess.<p>When my kids were little, I told them in words they could understand: "Mommy is crying because Daddy wants another wife"... yeah, I know... shouldn't have, right? But the point is, they KNEW ANYWAY. They had eyes to see, and my stupid ex had them with him a bunch of times while he frolicked (sp?) with the OW's.

LostHusband,<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>However, I will choose to withhold information. My girls know that I am perfectly honest with them,<hr></blockquote><p>These two statements seem to conflict with each other. Lies of omission are just as harmful as lies of commission.<p>I do not believe that your relationship with your father was harmed by what your mother told you - it was harmed by what your father did. Had you never found out, the relationship you had with your father would not have been founded in reality. Had you found out only after he died, for instance, your history together would have been destroyed, and could never have been repaired. At least now, whatever relationship you have with your father is REAL - whatever you feel for him, you feel in spite of his faults. It is far better, not only for you, but for him as well, not to have a barrier between you, a barrier built of secrets and of his fear that you will someday find out.<p>[ March 18, 2002: Message edited by: Nellie1 ]</p>

LostHusband,
I rarely post anymore, but this post hit a nerve.<p>Nellie took the words and used them before I could. "Lies of omission are just as harmful as lies of commission."<p>While it depends on the age of the children as to what and how much they should be told in terms of parental affairs etc, I clearly believe that they should not be able to believe that any behaviour is OK and justifiable.<p>In this respect, if you keep silent, how are you then able to teach them about the choices they will need to learn to make in their lives....such as drugs, alcohol, commitment, relationships, honesty responsibility to family?<p>This has been a struggle for my children....they see the parental responsibility as onerous and not always fun....so why not run from it, why not choose a hedonistic life, why not use lies to justify your choices, why not use all sorts of stuff to make you feel good, why not lie so that there are no consequences and why not blame the whole world for the choices you yourslf make?<p>This is what my children now learn from one parent, and I cannot keep quiet, not even at the risk of "losing " out on a relationship with a child....because then have I not abdicated my parental responsibilities?<p>I believe that children should be told that their parents both love them, both parents want the best for them, but that they should not believe the lies, the justification of aberrant and irresponsible behaviour towards the children themselves, but they should not have to choose which parent to love.<p>Affairs create havoc for children, but the type of affairs and behaviour of the WS parent after discovery towards the children is a huge factor in all this, IMHO.And the BS should not have to white wash any of this as palatable for the kids.....however, depending on the children's ages, is what they should be told....or protected from<p>Just my 2 cents worth

I am currently dealing with this myself. The problem that I have is that no matter what I say, my WH lies to the children. Therefore, the children are forced into a position to try and decipher who is telling the truth and who isn't. Because they have never had their father in their life before, and feling insecurity because he left our home, they are afraid of him leaving them once again, so they desparately want to believe anything he says. <p>I'm in a lose lose situation. The only thing on my side is time. Time for them to have other people who are not family to point out the reality of the situation and the lies their father has told them. Then they will finally see how he betrayed them and how he hurt the family.<p>It's not something that I look forward to, and to this day my WH doesn't think that the kids will know when we got divorced, so that they won't know that daddy had a girlfriend while he was married and mommy was giving birth to his child.<p>Their minds are warped. My suggestion is not to tell unless the kids have questions. Then at that point don't lie. I don't believe that withholding information that children don't need to know is lying. Otherwise why don't we just let them watch R rated movies - we keep them from some things because they are children and their minds can't process things in the same way.<p>I'm not saying not to help them develop a healthy sense of right and wrong, but the explicit details they don't need to know. <p>I've been counseled that it's ok to let the children see you cry, to let them know that you are affected by the situation, that you are not happy by the series of events. Now that doesn't mean let them see you totally depressed, but it's ok to talk about how the new situation makes everyone feel. I have also been counseled not to lie. But that's when the question and the situation and the age of the children come into play.<p>My WH wants me to lie about everything so that he can get away with what he is doing free and clear. He can't even handle the kids knowing about the reality of the situation. So I get in trouble with him for anything that I say or the kids say - even if I don't tell them anything. <p>Just be a stable loving parent, and things will work out fine. K

<p>[ March 20, 2002: Message edited by: newstartj ]</p>

You know I&#8217;m actually surprised by the responses here. Maybe it I who has been blind. I have went to great lengths to protect my children from physical and mental harm. I have strived to create a relationship with their mother for the purpose of continuing to raise our children together since we have shared custody. <p>So let&#8217;s work with this for a little bit. I tell my children of their mother&#8217;s other love half-way through our marriage. I tell them all I know about her current relationship that effectively destructed their family. I tell them that their mom isn&#8217;t there to take them to school because she&#8217; with him. I tell them that a lot of the extra time they are getting with me is because she&#8217;s with him. I tell them of the dirty underhanded games she played during the divorce.<p>What benefit is that to them? They know affairs are wrong just like they know cheating, stealing, and lying are wrong. So now, they have an internal struggle with their mom&#8217;s behavior, likely damaging their relationship with her. Furthermore, if they confront her they will be met with lie&#8217;s and then what are they to do? Add the fact that this will cause tons of friction between her and I, then how do we effectively parent together?<p>NEWSTARTJ,<p>There are no boundaries or ground rules here. I opened this topic to respectfully listen to other&#8217;s point of views as well as respectfully present mine. I am always interested in talking about children. There is no wrong point of view or a right point of view. Truly this is a topic without an answer. We base our decisions on our lifestyles, morals, beliefs, circumstances, and many other factors. <p>Now if you have some scientific study, books, or religious beliefs that add light to the subject them lay them on the table for all to see.<p>I only speak for myself when I say that you may challenge me as vigorously as you like. We are all adults here trying to do what is best for our children.

I am coming from the recovery board--it has been a long time since I took a peek over here.<p>Now that the whole thing is "over," I regret telling my kids anything. My daughters, from my first marriage and who live with their biological father needed to know because they are old enough to ask questions. They needed to know why "Papa" and I didn't live together. My 12-year-old daughter was very pleased when I decided to "give Papa a second chance." They continue to have a good relationship with their stepdad and don't ever mention his mistep.<p>But my son--he was three years old when my husband, his father, found his "soulmate." We were living apart then. It turned my son's life upsidedown. His pain was manifested in severe ways. His behavior was incredible. He refused to toilet train, was destructive, anti-social and was actually tested for autism. Those were terrible times for both of us.<p>When I confirmed the affair, it's like a huge light had been lit--it explained everything: why dad was so mean to mom, why he left us, why he had become a different dad. It was selfish on my part, out of my grief, I confided in my 5-year-old that daddy had a girlfriend. It seemed to make things logical to him as well. <p>Right after we separated, my husband called to talk to our son. My son innocently asked "When am I going to meet the new mommy that you found for me?" My husband demanded to speak to me right then and then spent the next 20 minutes or so screaming at me because I had told our son that my husband had a girlfriend. I guess the relationship was perfectly fine and valid as long as it was a secret, huh?<p>My boy became a cold tough kid then. My husband and I separated for "good" then, and my kid acted like he didn't care about his dad. He accepted what was going on and complacently lived with me without even mentioning his dad. Yet, it hurt me because I saw what a huge hole was left in my little boy's life. He really needed his father.<p>Now that we are in recovery, things are going back to the way they should be> my son has a good relationship with his dad> They have fun together< and my husband is proving to be an excellent father<p>But there is still that underlying knowledge that my husband once turned his back on his family, and I know that this has ruined the closeness that should be between my husband and my son> When my son is hurt or sick, or has a secret, he comes to me and avoids his dad. My son confides in me--he hides from his dad when theres conflict. I guess only time will heal this. I just wish that I had never said anything to my kid.

This one is near and dear to me too. To date, I have answered questions honestly to my 9 year-old son, but I haven't spilled all the beans. I think he is approaching the time where he'll be able to deal with the full story in a balanced way, understanding what infidelity means and learning the lessons, dealing with his anger and confusion productively, and figuring out how to accept and love his father, even with full knowledge. Additionally, 3 1/2 years since separation and 3 months since the divorce, I can communicate the truth in a non-hostile manner. In my opinion, that is just as critical.<p>Like most communication, it is often not the facts that are stated that cause bad reactions, but rather the way in which they are communicated. A message like this has to be delivered in a truthful but non-vindictive manner. And unless the wayward is an abusive parent, it should be done in a way that separates the marital destruction from the love for the child, and the importance of keeping the parent-child relationship while learning from what had happened. The betrayed should take responsibility for their part in the marital breakdown, but also state that the infidelity wasn't the right way to handle the problem. The child should be encouraged to discuss what happened with the wayward as well, told that there are always multiple sides to all stories and this version is just yours.<p>I think the extremes don't work. To not share what happened will eventually backfire, as the child will eventually figure it out and be hurt by the deception (which is disrespectful to the child). To blab out the entire situation early-on, when anger and bitterness are fresh, and when you'd like to see the wayward hurt in some way, will cause a natural desire of the child to defend the wayward. The wayward is also likely to counter with a long, emotional list of all the bad things about the betrayed. This puts the child in the middle and is a losing strategy.<p>Ultimately, I am convinced that it needs to be done and it needs to be done right. The help of a good counselor would be invaluable.

Here is another idea that I'll throw out there. <p>Some other advice that I've heard from counselors is when the kids ask questions - refer the child to the erring parent. So if my son asks why WH has a girlfriend, I say, that's a good quesiton, why don't you ask your dad?<p>Ok, so my initial response to that was - well, what if WH doesn't want to answer the quesiton or lies to son. <p>The answer was, that's ok, the kids will eventually figure that out because of what they learn from school, church and others. And then it's between them and their dad.<p>It takes you out of the middle and the erring parent has to live with what he tells the child.<p>Just another slant. Although it's hard not to say anything when my 6 year old talks about how he spent two days with the OW and they went swimming and she bought them gifts ............<p>K

Children do not know that affairs are wrong, if their parents pretend that they are ok. They do not know that stealing or lying is wrong, if they see their parents model that behavior. At least with stealing or lying, the fact that it is wrong is reinforced in school. <p>Why would you want their relationship with their mother to be based on lies? That is a relationship with a figment of their imagination, not a relationship with a real person.