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FS,<P>Your story, "short and sweet" as you put it was actually in addition that, crystal clear to me. Having read your clear little bit of testimony I had to take my hat off. Your thoughtful reply warrants a more thoughtful one from me. In short - I see your point.<P>That's probably about all I'd really need to say, where after all apparently we can see one another's point. But, after seeing how kindly you worded your thoughts and I'd been a bit of a smart-aleck I believe I owe you a bit more than that. Beginning your post with "please, I'm sorry" inspires a "please, I'm sorry", from me to you. . .<P>I think that where things might fall into categories of degree I hate to use the word "offended". . . OK, you jangled a nerve of mine a bit. But that's fine. . gosh, I ought to be able to stand a little nerve-jangling if that's what it takes to listen properly to someone else's point of view.<P>Sorry. . .<P>It was very eloquently put - the way you defined questionable behavior with the comparison between laughing at the computer and a "pair" checking one-another into motel rooms and then lying about it. Gosh! I'll come to your side on THAT one - A whole lot less than THAT would have me raising my eye-brows and quite honestly very suspicious.<P>Certainly our experiences are a bit different, and that's going to make us see from different perspectives - ergo, have different points of view, and worth taking seriously.<P>I'm honest in that I'm not one to be in compromising situations (and I appreciate your faith, after all in that). And the fact is that I really do have a clue or two as to why I've had to put up with some of that. It doesn't really matter if it isn't "fair". . . if it's "reality".<P>My wife's Dad cheated on her Mom.<BR>. . . (everyone does it, right?)<BR>Her self-confidence sometimes suffers.<BR>. . . (Why wouldn't he cheat, when there are so many others who are blah-blah-blah?)<BR>She honestly has had a couple of friends in the past who convinced her to "look" for things. One of which (as far as I know) never got cheated on, herself - but just enjoyed the drama.<BR>Finally, a big negative. . . in my work, sporadically I am sent away on those "out of town" trips where men are so liable to take advantage of no one knowing them a thousand miles away.<P>On that last note. To be honest, I have seen men I NEVER would have suspected in a million years go out and find themselves a hot little number to keep company with for a couple of weeks. The 2nd time I had an issue like this "I" hadn't even been on such a trip in months, and the husband in a family we were friends with came home from such a trip and being guilt-ridden, confessed all to his wife. . .<BR>She called my wife, with whom I was eating supper at the time, and who went over to be a consoler, I suppose.<BR>She was gone for about two hours, and when she came back. . .<P>. . . she had started by playing 20 questions with me. . .<BR>"have you ever?"<BR>"nope"<BR>"If you did, would you tell me?"<BR>"huh??"<BR>And if I finish the pattern there. . . there's no way to win one like that.<P>And it took MONTHS to get over that. I can still remember to this day what I was eating that evening. . peas, mashed potatoes and gravy, and fried chicken. (It's been 10 or 11 years ago!) That was the worst of them, but I have had three episodes, now.<P>Now, as far as hiring PIs and things like that. . . I am absolutely opposed to anyone doing something like that, if they want to SAVE or REPAIR their marriage. If they are pretty sure it's over and want to collect evidence to hold up in court or something, or maybe if the only way to repair a marriage is to force the guilty party to 'fess up, I can see it. Or if someone wants to sabotage their marriage, for whatever reason. . .easy out, something like that. . . then it's a great way to crush trust and faith and set up a pattern of bad thinking.<P>After that one fellow came home from his trip with his confession, and I got worked over for it. . . I couldn't hug my wife and feel in love at all. Our marriage "works", and ours is a good home, but that "in love" feeling is as gone as if either of us ever actually did have an affair. Kinda hard to be in love with someone who makes clear you are not trusted. Lastly, on that note. . . after the beating up I got - I will be honest (I told her, too) that the very next time "I" went out of town I had a tough time not getting the "I already paid, so I might as well play" attitude. That's so wrong of me, and I am so glad I didn't act on it - but the simple fact that the incentive that comes with saying "my wife trusts me" is GONE makes a difference.<P>I don't believe I'll ever cheat on my wife. But that has nothing to do with her or what a great catch she is, anymore. Instead that's my own conviction. I want to be honorable and virtuous, and if I give that up just because another element that would be nice to have (trust) is missing, then I haven't gained a thing, I've only become even less than I already am. Something to think about for ANYone considering snooping, prying, spying, or hiring a PI. . .if I hadn't have had that conviction, then I would have quickly used the accusation as my rationale to cheat, the very next time I had a chance. But that is WRONG! even so.<P>Now, I've said a bunch. . . probably ought to have been a little more short and sweet like you, FS.<P>Not every situation is the same. Surely there are times when a PI (or any other measure) is very well warranted. Your point was clear and well made. Now, with all that said, I am hoping that anyone who's maybe about to be in a pinch will objectively consider all these things that everyone has said, and tailor them to fit their own circumstances.<P>I'm sorry that you have had a bad experience, and I wish that no one ever did.<P>FS. . . no reason for you to be "feelingstupid". . . Probably, even if my views differ, I'll take better care to consider yours objectively.<P>God bless you too

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ilmj,<BR>I just accidently deleted a full page of text in response to your last post. So your now going to get a condensed version.<BR>Thank you for the nice adjectives you used to discribe my communication skills. Words like kind, clear, serious, eloquent, thoughtful and inspire are ones I havn't heard said about me in a long time. Big confidence boost, thank you. My husband would argue that I have the communication skills of a baffoon. That's neither here nor there, seeing as he left us last night [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<BR>Anyway, you showed confidence in what I have to say and still question what I mean. And because of this I must share with you the little pearl of wisdom that dropped in my lap this evening as I contimplated how to furter explain my point of view on the P.I..<BR>If you TRUSTED your child was in a safe play enviroment, but you got this overwhelming FEELING that he was in danger, would you not immediatly go check to make sure? And if he was OK, you wouldn't intrude just to let him know that you had a feeling. You would hope he didn't notice you coming to check at all. You would still not question your need to make sure he was ok just because he was either. You run just as quick the next time you get that FEELING. They call it Mother's Intuition and trust it as such. <BR>Now had the child been in danger, let's say you rushed in to find them choking on a marble. Your instincts were right, yet you don't respond to the situation by criticizing and judging that child for doing something they shouldn't have now do you. No your first instinct would be to safe your childs life by removing the danger element, the marble, from his mouth. Now, after saving you would provide comfort knowing your child was scared and hurt from the trauma. After the child calmed down and you made sure they were ok, only then would you start to calmly explain the danger in what your child just did by being curious as to what a marble tasted like.<BR>You see I think that's why we have tempations and intuitions. It is our repsonsiblity to our spouse to be able to pick up on these vibes, so we can check on them when their enviroments present dangerous temptations. Just as a child needs it's mother to tell them when they did or are about to do something dangerous and to stop and/or save them, I feel is just how we are suppost to need our spouses. <BR>Just think about it, if every A or infidelity could be preceived from this point of view, how much easier it would be to get handle them appropiatly. I only wished I'd realized this before my H left.<BR>I am even more commited to my P.I. theory then I was before. I think it is quite alright to check on our spouses when we feel the need to, because they just may need us to come save them before the can hurt themselves with human nature. <BR>I hope this is all clear. I feel as though I've been rambling on or leaving things out because I've allready typed it all once. I wonder if this point of view could be helpful to others. Please give me your point of view, as well as your wifes.. I would much appreciate it.<BR>I choose not to check on my H, and WE choked to death on that marble.<BR>1. check, 2. save, 3. comfort, 4. reinforce <BR>These could possibly be the four steps needed for any marraige to successfully survive any affair.<BR>Let me know what you think.<BR>FS I guess that wasn't quite condensed <BR> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<p>[This message has been edited by FeelingStupid (edited October 08, 2000).]

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FS,<P>Is that "babboon" or "buffoon"? Or was that just a clever play on words that you decided to use? *smile* Just teasing.<P>If you found my assessment of your communication skills to be encouraging, then by all means, take it to heart - because I was entirely sincere. Your short/sweet post was all that, and so was your longer explaination this evening.<P>Neither of your posts were lost on me, because in both of them you made your point very well. I will admit that I have softened a bit to the notion of some of that business of checking up on a spouse (but I still cringe at the idea of a PI unless there is more than just a little doubt or suspicion).<P>Excellent analogy, with the "marble".<P>Sort of still and apples & oranges thing. . . at least a little, and if not. Well, imagine the indignation of the kid who's not able to have a marble because some kid down the street choked to death on one!!<P>Really I DO see your point, please believe that. It's clear to me that our circumstances are quite a bit different.<P>I think that if I had been "checked on" a time or two, then I'd have been a bit miffed at the time. But my wife has told me "I can never trust you". And I asked her why and her reply was, "because I know how you are". Apart from that, she wasn't able to provide anything about how I "am". I DID ask her what I could do to change, so that she would feel better and she said, "Nothing, I just can't ever trust you".<BR>(And I think it's because she has a lack of self-confidence that try as I might, I can't seem to help much - a husband's duty I have failed at)<P>You see, I have really been through the wringer about it a few times. And the deep-down "inside" hurt comes from promising someone "forever" who's assured me of a "never" (which is very negative). . . never and forever are exactly the same length of time.<P>My wife's point of view:<BR>If I ask her if she believes I have been faithful, then she will say, "I don't know". (That really hurts because I never even had another girlfriend before we were married, and haven't ever been unfaithful in 17 years - while I know others who've had affairs, gotten over them, and have better marriages than me. . .)<P>Her point of view really is a lot like yours. I HONESTLY can understand your point of view in the wake of what you've experienced, but she's not been through anything like that.<P>Really FS, focusing on this as a "representative slice" of what my life/marriage is like is kind of misleading. I imagine that goes without saying. Certainly it's not a central issue and it's not something that's like a daily struggle or anything like that with us. I'm grateful for that. And the distrust she has doesn't really manifest in ways that have any sweeping effect on our lives as a whole. But in and of itself, it's very negative.<P>I'm really probably saying more than I have to, or even should - at the risk of running us down tangent lanes in conversation.<P>Incidentally, at this point I'm more interested in convincing you that I DO see your point than I am in convincing you of mine, or anything about me. Agreeing and understanding are not quite the same. I don't quite agree, but I really do understand.<P>But if after all that I have borne, my wife ever hires a PI to trail me. . . <BR>. . . that could be a finalizing sort of insult<P>For what it's worth, I respect all that you have said, in spite of my own feelings and views. I think I've found a friend of sorts in you, and will give any thought you post on any topic due consideration.<P>Thanks for your patience with me.<P>And do be encouraged. You really are a very clear one, and express your self well.<P>(By the way, I have begun to wonder if the topic-starter, personal has ever come back any more)<P>God bless you, FS (and all)

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see next post<P>[This message has been edited by FeelingStupid (edited October 08, 2000).]<p>[This message has been edited by FeelingStupid (edited October 08, 2000).]

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by FeelingStupid:<BR>[B]ilmf,<BR>I wonder if we should start a new topic to continue our conversing? It's just convient here because I know you'll check here. My last post was more a new awareness for me about human nature and the rolls we play as couples, more than it was anything to do with either my situation or yours. I'm not obsessing on trying to change your point of view. <BR>I almost used the analogy of sticking a nail in an electrical socket, but the sexual overtones were way to strong with that. Maybe I should expand on that one now.<BR>I'm going to start a new thread under "Infedelity; General Question II" titled "Our spouse as our baby?" to see what other points of veiw I can attract, and will continue this posting to you there. So if you wouldn't mind, I would like you to join me there.<BR>thx<BR>fs<P>ps: I just had that FEELING.... and found my 7 mo old less then 10 feet from me (but out of view) quietly choking on a piece of fuzz from her blanket. I will ALWAYS trust my instincts!! It's my perception that I have to question... I realize I'm neglecting my children right now so I will have to wait a few hours to post the rest of my response. I will start that new thread w/o continuing my post just in case you wish to respond in the meantime. See you there.<P><BR>

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I used a PI. The only reason I resorted to that was because all attempts at discussing it with my W proved fruitless. Someone cheating will never admit it and I got tired of the stress attached to not knowing what was truly happening. I just found out over the weekend that her trip "to be alone" was actually to meet him. At least I was able to bring the affair out into the open and discussed it with her in a non-threatening manner.

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