XW teachers at a private boarding school.
S is in his first year there.

3 weekends ago, there were parent teacher conferences. XW asked me if I wanted to go together or separate. I said separate, although I did not give a reason. . . for two reasons: 1st, she has criticized my questions and comments to teachers in the past, and then she aplogizes afterwards. 2nd, although the reason is that some faculty members are not totally honest when their colleagues are in the same room discussing a child. Also, she is giving P/T conferences at the same time. . . . as well as she works with these people and is in all faculty meeting when they discuss the students. . . . so i wanted the full, unabridged discussion from the teacher to a typical parent, not a faculty member parent.

She agrees at the time. She asked the question, she agreed. On the Monday or Tuesday following the weekend, i tell her that I would like to meet with her and Son to discuss what i learned. . . Her reply was, "i dont know when I can meet." My response was, "I don't have the difficult schedule, you tell me when you can meet." I have not heard from her. I told her i would type up the notes, and send them to her. . . . there was some time sensitive material in there, so i told son about the time sensitive material. I have not heard from her for three weeks. . . .

I wrote up the notes, had meeting with son myself, as he needs some guidance badly, and sent her the notes this morning. . .

Her Response:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When you last spoke of the parent/teacher conferences, you stated that you
were going to write up your notes, send them to me, and then arrange for a
time for us to meet with Alex TOGETHER to discuss the conferences. It
appears that you have already had the meeting with Alex ... when we split
up you told me that you wanted to work as a team as far as education goes.
I have included you in everything regarding education and I am sorry to
see that it appears that you are going off on your own.

It is not that I disagree with your thoughts and conclusions ... but they
are from you, not from his parents.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">
1)Please tellme if i am off base!

2)Please critiaue my response!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> When I talked with you on the phone on the Monday or
Tuesday following Parent's weekend, I ASKED YOU when you wanted to
meet because you have the tight schedules whereas I don't.

Your RESPONSE was "I don't know when I can meet!"
My response was "Let me know when you can meet as I
don't have a scheduling problem." I said i would write up the notes
and send them to you. However, i asked for the meeting to discuss
the notes, which was the point of the question. I could hand
you the notes before the meeting, discuss them with you at the meeting,
there was no assumption that the notes were prior to the meeting.

I have not heard back from you, so obviously my conclusion
is that YOU could not find the time for the meeting within your
more important scheduling. . . This meeting was one that could
not wait. . . . .for Alex's best interest. . . .

If you misunderstand my words, then you need to speak up.
If the ball in your court because of your words, I expect you
to follow through if you are interested. When I say I am ready, and
you say you are not, it is not my responsibility to make you
find the time for the meeting. . . .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">i hate the manipulators who use any revisionist history to try to make you look bad. . .

wiftty

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

Hi wiftty,

I've been where you are on this particular topic. I'll tell you what worked for me. First though:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>1)Please tellme if i am off base!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't think you're off base. I think you're trying to do what you perceive is best for your son. However, it's working out about like the marriage did, in a way. You talk, she responds, she goes off in the weeds and does whatever she wants. That's how I see it from what you've posted, anyway.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by WhenIfindthetime:
<strong>2)Please critiaue my response!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'd say something along these lines:

"I asked you 3 weeks ago when we could meet and have not heard from you since then. I had time-critical information to share with <son> and couldn't wait any longer for you to get your schedule figured out."

It's short, sweet, and to the point.

Good luck.

I forgot that i was going to tell you what worked for me.

In my case, x was going off on wild tangents right and left. Couldn't have a conversation on a topic. You just can't reason with an unreasonable person. I finally told her that if she had news about the kids she could put it in email or leave me a voicemail. Other than that, I have nothing to do with her. It took a couple of weeks but she finally figured out that I meant business. I now operate as though she isn't there - which is true. I attend parent-teacher conferences on my own, and I expect her to make whatever arrangements she needs to make in order to get her questions answered.

Off base? Not according to your account. But your response seems unnecessarily antagonistic. Perhaps that is your intention, but if not...

In the second paragraph of your response, you said "there was no assumption that the notes were prior to the meeting." Well, apparently there was such an assumption on your wife's part, although it isn't clear whether that assumption was made retroactively or not. In fairness, all you can really say is that there was no shared assumption.

In the third paragraph of your response, you said "obviously my conclusion is that YOU could not find the time for the meeting within your more important scheduling." This claim oozes disrespect. Your more neutral prefatory explanation at the beginning of your post suggests a less inflammatory perspective: you are still waiting to have the joint meeting, and in the meantime you discussed some things with your son that could no longer wait.

The last paragraph of your response is both inflammatory and superfluous.

Agree with Gnome ------ I know it's REALLY HARD but,............ be nice....................

Remember your audience ...........child........referring to the mom .......... not the real child..........K

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: God is in Control ]</small>

Yes, i know that last paragraph had a bite to it. . . i am pissed at her Passive agressive nature. . . . she gives me a choice, i take it, she goes along with it. . . does not disagree. . .
I make a request, she ignores it. . . she gets left out, she wants to use anger with me. . . and believe me, i have been around, listening to her make social arrangements for nighttime partying, etc. . . i asked her point blank in an email. . if she is going to do it or not? no answer, then she says she is going to do it, and then she misses the deadline. . . hardly ever a response to a question from me, email, or direct. . . .

P/A people set themselves up to be angry to use that as a controlling method. . . but GIIC, i must remember that. . . she is a child. . . .

There are times when X and I arrange pickup schedule for son, and I tell her "I will pick him up in front of the school house right after study hall ends."

And she will say, "I will tell Alex that you will pick him up at 9:30 in front of the tunnel."

i have had to repeat myself three to four times before she will repeat my request/expectations correctly. . . . she either wants to be difficult, or wants to just be the person in control, which she does by insisting that i ask her about everything, and she makes no suggestions. I have said that she needs to ask, that i can't read her mind. . . and she has said that a real relationship means that i should know what she wants (when we were married.)

she just says no to everything that i suggest or until i say, what do you want then? then she decides what the plans are, even if its one of my suggestions. . . .

I sent off the short and sweet version. . .

thanks
wiftty

<small>[ November 07, 2002, 03:39 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

Hi Tom, long time no "see"!

"There are times when X and I arrange pickup schedule for son, and I tell her "I will pick him up in front of the school house right after study hall ends."

And she will say, "I will tell Alex that you will pick him up at 9:30 in front of the tunnel."

Huh???

If this is the kind of communication you and she have, it must be VERY frustrating for you! It's going to be a long haul but I'd keep all communication with her as simple as possible, I can imagine the triggers this sets off for you!

There are LB's flying through the written words to your ex. Don't set yourself up for the aggravation (you know it's going to happen), you don't need it!

I'm with GIIC, remember who the child really is!

Gayle

Now I'll go back into hibernation......

This is a person that has made arrangements for kids on my night, which pisses me off to no end, either to push my buttons or to use the situation to try to make herself look like the better parent. . . . because she gives the kids more of what they want. . . .

and who will tell me that she doesn't do x, y or z. . . but when pressed really hard in some situations, admits that she just did x,y, and z.

boy, am i glad that i am rid of her. . . now i only have 7 more years to go. . .

Sounds to me that you are more concerned about being right than being easy to get along with. If that is your goal, then you did just fine.

However, if you want to improve your relationship, then it looks like a different approach is the only way things are going to change.

Her Response:
quote: When you last spoke of the parent/teacher conferences, you stated that you
were going to write up your notes, send them to me, and then arrange for a
time for us to meet with Alex TOGETHER to discuss the conferences. It
appears that you have already had the meeting with Alex ... when we split
up you told me that you wanted to work as a team as far as education goes.
I have included you in everything regarding education and I am sorry to
see that it appears that you are going off on your own.It is not that I disagree with your thoughts and conclusions ... but they
are from you, not from his parents.

How about saying something like this to her response?

"You are right, I did tell you I wanted to work as a team as far as education goes and yes the thoughts and conclusions were mine alone and not from both of us as parents. I am sorry for the misunderstanding about the meeting. Yes, you have included me in everything regarding education, and I do still want to work as a team. Please tell me any ideas or suggestions you have so that we can work to solve his problems. Take care"

Keep moving forwad:

Because she is not right. Because she doesn't answer my questions in a direct, straight forward manner, because being nice only lets her walk all over me. . . because she uses anger as a control mechanism, meaning if you don't want me angry at you, you will do stuff for me. . . . like i can't remember, so you need to remember for me. . .

because she twists my words around. . . even as i am directly talking with her. . . nice is for people that try. . . . not people that use the excuse "I forgot" as soon as they are wrong. . . . or say they agree, but do something different. . . .

have you ever tried to repeat back what someone has just said to be sure you understand them? When i do that, she has responded with, "Don't tell me what to say!"

its called passive aggressive, and she has been getting worse and worse at it. . . . agree, do nothing, agre do nothing, and then attack!

i don't think so. . .

You haven't sent it yet, have you?

Well, no matter, because I like what you said. It made perfect sense to me.

To me, since you said you wanted to go seperately anyway, why can't she go NOW, and then share her notes with you, if applicable?

By the way, given the circumstances (she's faculty), I think you should continue to keep the meetings seperate.

If she could have a meeting without spending time berating you or putting you down (which isn't even close to the reason for the meeting) then yeah, reconsider doing the meetings together.

My two cents. They're worth about that much some days.

Nice to see ya!

Wiftty,

As you have said to me many times, don't let her push your buttons <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . She obviously is either so disorganised she doesn't remember what she heard, or she is just being catty. From all I have read about her here, I would bet on the latter.

Keep your cool and just do what you did already...KISS her (that stands for Keep It Simple Stupid <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ) cos that way you KNOW exactly what you said and there is no room for argument.

Also, I would consider trying to do the contact thing with her via email ONLY, so that when she says "But you said...." you can copy and paste what you wrote already and send it to her again.

This stuff just sucks, doesn't it?

Love and light,

Jacky

Ahhhhhh Wiftty,

My heart bleeds for you man. You have described my life in excruciating detail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

After extensive reading on passive aggressive behaviors and verbal abuse, I have finally managed to regain my power. And this is just what it is (sort of) a power struggle. If you would like my reading list, I'd be happy to share. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Ok, so how do you, in this situation, regain your power?? The divorce/custody papers must spell out explicitely the details of arrangements. Parenting times, pickup locations, scheduling conflict resolutions, etc. Then if she doesn't comply with this - you can file for contempt. If you'd like to discuss this further let me know...

Please do not expect rational behavior from an irrational person. Expect that she is going to mess you up each and every time there is an opportunity.

Maybe you are hoping that if you are reasonable and flexible, that she will be this way also the next time that you need to change a schedule. This is called "wishful thinking" hon. Think about your marital history. Did being nice to her ever get you anything?? I'm not saying not to be nice. You WILL get more flies with honey. I am saying that you should not be nice expecting the same from her.

Look out for numero uno (you) and the best interests of your children.

Don't ever doubt yourself because of one of HER issues. It is not your fault.

Stick to the parenting schedule and insist that she do the same.

I think you did right by not relying on her for co-parenting input. She is not going to be cooperative in any of this - she hates you too much.

I do think that you should not pass messages through your son - that puts him in the middle.

I think you understand already that she re-writes history and that she twists reality. Denial and projection. Stop being so hard on yourself - you already "know" all the answers - now it is time to internalize and practice. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Hey Tom,
Good to see you...but sorry you are still dealing with the same old, same old....

You are correct...we must make decisions etc on our own assumptions...and yours is probably correct in that she will not chnage the manipulative etc behaviour...so the question must be"how do I make it work for me, so that my kids get the best involvement possible from both parents and I do not get my buttons pushed and my life turned upside down each time there is interaction with X"

I hope I am reading this correctly.

My suggestion is to proactively prepare to arrange this in a manner that works for you and your children. Never leave anything to chance and compromise. Always think ahead of what you want and how to get this with the least amount of aggravation and frustration.

So, since a big need seems to be to be an involved father (and bravo for that) you have to find a way to make it work for the kids. Choose the battles in terms of what you will not walk from in terms of involvement in kids decisions as a parent...and in this case I see education...so sit down, define a plan of action and go about it, knowing that it probably will undermine X (who has issues anyway in that she teaches at the same school and son's performance somehow does reflect on her too as an educator!)

Do not ever write anything to her re your frustrations in dealings with her, just write facts as if it is a scheduling agenda. Impersonal and what you are deciding to do re the kids.

In your letter to her you might have suggested that "It was unfortunate that scheduling did not allow us, as Alex's parents, to meet together with our son to discuss certain issues which were raised when I met with his teachers. (no excuses or justification needed.)

You could then write : "In future I hope that we, sons parents, can work together more productively to provide son with guidance." or some very neutral letter.

In this way you keep it short, state your piece, do not blame, but recognize that there is a problem .

Please try to have a friend read anything you send to X so that you do not escalate the conflict which will simmer and overflow constantly through the children

Now for YOU.....next time..
1)set up meeting, and before you go to this set up meeting with son and mother to discuss what you learn. Son should be involved in most of this this I believe if he is in grade 7 or up.

I am still in limbo land and each time we get close to ending this stbx tries to initiate conflict through one or another kid. Fortunately d who lives with me no longer buys into his manipulation and lies and told him "It is not my issue so why are you making it mine...this over something truly trivial in my home that was never an issue between d and myself, but he felt it needed to be!

So he escalated his conflict with me through 2 adult sons. I have set my boundaries after 3 and a half years of abuse from my sons and they can buy into dad's manipulation and try to attack and discredit me, but I walk away from them and they are left with nothing to fight about, but I am not there for them as a mother either .

Unfortunately for these passive aggressive, controllong manipulators they are not happy with what they have chosen in their new lives, so have to keep conflict alive...and use the children to do so...which makes these affair/divorces messes so much worse.

Tom, try to distance yourself from her manipulation. Try not to defend your actions....vent to a very close friend, but do not let it get to your core being.

Take care...and hope this helps

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Harlequin99:
<strong>I do think that you should not pass messages through your son - that puts him in the middle.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">An excellent point. I would add that it probably does no good to have her pass messages to your son. It's an aggrevating exercise in futility to try to keep doing things this way for the next 7 years. Figure out a way to communicate directly with your son for this kind of stuff if you can.

It sounds like other things within your relationship...

You asked her to let you know a time..

you let her know you would type up the notes and discuss them..

So she 'assumed' that you would first send her the notes and then you could discuss it..

and you assumed she understood that she needed to call first..

miscommunication..

You could have responded, okay, so we had a miscommunication here, you assumed one thing..I assumed another..I'm sorry if I didn't express my expectations so that you understood what I needed from you..

I don't think she's trying to rewrite history here, I honestly believe she was under the assumption you would first send her the notes..
giving her time to look over them..as it really would show her respect for her role as their mother..and then discuss them..

Maybe next time say something like..To be clear we both understand whats expected..

I will type up the notes..

You will look over your schedule and let me know when it is convient for you..now realize, there are some things here that need to be addressed immediately..and so you need to let me know by such and such a date as to when we can get together and discuss this..If I don't hear from you by that day..then I will assume you don't have the time..and I will disuss it with son/daughter alone..

And then we will sit down and discuss the notes together..and then talk to son/daughter about these things..

It sounds like she just needs to hear one step at a time so she can process it all in her brain..
so it doesn't all get jumbled and she's not losing information..or getting it mixed up in the order you say it..

My daughter is like that..I can list off things that need to get done..and she only hears one or two things..and looses the rest in the processing
of information..so I have to be specific and take time to list them one by one for her..so she catches it all..and if anyone tells her more than 1 thing at a time she's confused..I can say yuo need to wash the dishes, and help fold clothes, and clean your room..the only she catches is fold clothes..and then gets angry that "I" didn't mention the other things...even though I did..
she's the same way at school..she does much better if there is list of things that need to be done..that she can look at..

I don't know that it's passive agressive..but just the way her brain hears things..

tr,

nice try. . . .

I have another example, AGAIN, all in writing.. . . via emails. . . .

nothing about hearing, all about ability to control the situation to make herself feel good. . . or by ignoring and hoping it goes away. . .

wiftty

Hi WIFTT:

Your x has a pattern of behaviour which upsets you. This will not change unless you react differently.

Whether you are right or wrong in assessing why the problem exists, it will do nothing to make things better........(and I HAVE and STILL DO walk in your shoes in terms of this craziness)
Now these are facts:
You will always do wrong in X's eyes.
You will always be conflictual in X's eyes.
You will always be the difficult parent in X's eyes.

Do not care about how you are perceived or how you may be insiduously undermined by X to kids. It is hurtful, it does make things even more difficult, but you have to accept the things you cannot change or control and move forward in a way that works better for you and your children.

Your children need you in their lives as their father, to love and be loved.

Do you always want interaction with X to be conflictual and a trigger point to which you will react?

What changes can YOU make for this to work for you and the children regardless of their mothers choice of behaviour, assumptions and miscommunication between the 2 of you?

How old are your children now?

Perhaps you can make arrangements with them after letting X know what you are doing, providing this is not an issue and is part of agreement that already exists..

e.g." I will be having dinner with son after school and return him to your home at X time."
Then contact son/ and or d and make the arragements where to meet for you to pick him up.
This also gives the kids some increased responsibility in their relationship with you. If the arrangements are screwed up, the issue is between you and kids, not X's at all....

hope this helps (but make sure you keep X in the loop and inform her of the arrangements...very very clearly...make no assumptions etc and let her know that it is for the kids to be more responsible about....)

Please do not send any more, IMHO "inflamatory" communications to X. At best, you will only become more upset when, in your opinion it seems to be turned around and misunderstood and kind of brings kids into the conflict.

Good luck and keep on trying

she doesn't back down from twisting and turning the words and concepts to suit her UNTIL in no uncertain terms why I don't agree with her. . .

in other words, there is the subtle trying to put me down whenever she doesn't get her way, and tries to upset the balance for favors. . .

so we do have been doing this arrangement for over two years, and she still finds new ways to undermine me on the legal agreement, like making arrangements for son on my nights. . . .

she just pisses me off to no end. .. . .. when she acts like a child. . . . and does not want to take adult responsiblities.