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Ever since the divorce, my X has been asking to have the kids on my vacation week during the school year, i accomodated one afternoon the first year.

The second year i did not, and so now, i just got a phone call from a counselor's office with D in the office. D is asking me with a counselor if she can have sleep overs at her mom's house during my vacation week.

Now this is the only time she has supported sending the child to a counseling session. So now, i am getting put into a real bind here.

The counselor is supposed to call me tomorrow, the mom did not even tell me about the counseling sessons, of course.

Also, on X's weekends, the BF and his three girls all come over to X's house, So is the daughter really unable to ask me about sleeping overs with friends or unable to ask the mom about having her friends sleep over instead of mom's BF and kids?

interesting new tactic. . . .

wiftty

<small>[ April 17, 2003, 03:50 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

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I must be missing something...

It's YOUR vacation week. This week has been planned and been YOURS for years now. Both your XW and D knew this week was to be WITH YOU.

I see no reason why you should even consider allowing your D to have a "friends' sleepover" at your XW's on your vacation week. None. If you are going somewhere with your kids during your vacation week, you will be out of town. If you are NOT going out of town, either your D has the "friends' sleepover" at your house that week -or- if she is adamant that it be at "mom's" house, then it is the week AFTER your week.

At this point, both your XW and D are manipulating you to the highest degree. I doubt if your D is doing it consciously, but she is following along with what your XW has demonstrated. So when you talk to the counselor, I suggest you just be factual. Don't get into your XW's numerous problems, just say that this week is yours, it has been yours for years, they KNEW it was coming, she is welcome to have the sleepover at your house, you are not keeping her from either her friends or her other parent, and that in your opinion this behavior is, succinctly, parental alienation.

Wiffty, you are a calm, mature, reasonable, healthy individual. Just BE that way with the counselor. There's no reason to pressure you into less time with your child...PERIOD.

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Wift,

Sounds like munipulation could be involved, however, I'd wait to see what the counselor says.

Also, have you expressed to your daughter that you have no problems with sleep overs if you are in town, and to tell her that this is part of watching her grow up, spreading her wings and you want to share in this part as well...

ANNA

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Sooooo What happened? Yea, yea, post...then just leave us in suspense. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

ANNA

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Spoke with the counselor myself. He only has heard one side of the story, i told him the pattern of her actions. Of course, he did not know all that.

He did say that daughter said that we have a good time at my house, and she is afraid to ask me because because i might get hurt or angry. Well i always get angry when people are disrespectful of agreements, and not cooperate with our personal agreements. The only point the counselor made was the asked me to be flexible. I did not ask him his definition of flexible. Nor did anyone offer to me to make a change.

So i emailed X at 11:47 AM with what i proposed, and of course, just happened to be a school surprise holiday, and so at 8:30 PM i talk with her, and she said that she came back from email and did not receive any from me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

So i read the email over the phone, and then when i said that i propose to pick her up at 8:30 on Sunday, she went silent, and then asked how did the conversation with D go? and i said that I understood D's position, and counselor understood my position. And she then said that she has made plans with daughter, ( assuming that because it was said in front of a counselor, that everything was OK.) i accept that my mistake for being obsessed with a job hunt i did not make arrangements earlier. I have to beg to my parents to let me live with them until i can get a job at the level that the courts deem my background and education expect. unemployed for over a year with occassional part time jobs that don't make enough(and right now, i am getting rejected for $30/hour temp jobs as overqualified.) $12/hour constant work is child support requirement, rent is $9/hour, car is $2/hour for maintenance and insurance and gas to get to work.

Then she said, the agreement says that the vacation is a week, and asked if i was planning on bringing her back at the regular time as next weekend is my regular weekend, and i said yes. And she replied with "That is more than 24x7 hours for a week." I told her fine, Monday morning at 8:30 and she still went off the deep end, she was yelling on the phone, and i forgot to click it. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" />

so i have yet to talk with daughter myself, however, since she is in an established pattern of alienation, i am probably going to go with the ruthless lawyer instead of the pansy lawyer, and file contempt charges, and then have to rewrite the agreement for specific dates, and ask the court to order a family psych evaluation.

Of course, the reason for all this is that d and i have some minor disagreements, X said that i returned d crying (and that never happened) x tells her to avoid me (no conflict resolution was ever done in our marriage unless she won), daughter comes back and we work it out. and then we have some fun together again.

daughter learned to IM me and talk with me over the computer, then X said can't IM anymore, ties up the phone. She was using OM's family account as guest, and so i got her her own name with no cost, independent of OM, and her own email here.

Also, X is coach of soccer team, does not go to clinics to learn to coach, and coaches from very old material, like 20 year old material. D went from being on winning higher level travel team a year ago with good coaches to an all losing lower level team with X as coach. Daughter is starting to lose interest in soccer. X mentioned to me that she wants to talk to me about d with soccer, and i agreed, but X has never brought it up again.
I can tell that D is losing interest, but will also never be a quality player anyway, so i am not pushing it.

D got lots of support from me for flute, and was very good at it, but got discouraged when friends quit, and of course, X would not tell me, and had to drag it out of d.

2 years ago, daughter asked for horse backriding lessons, d said that X would find them for her, after one year, X did nothing, d and I went horseback riding last summer, d loved it, i waited for an appropriate time, which was after flute quit, and daughter loves it, and i take her, and i just watch, but again, who knows how long it will last. So X did not support the HB riding lessons, but relented. now d again loves to do stuff with dad, and X is getting frustrated again.

its all about competition for the child, and wanting to be the sole "BEST" parent, IMO.

so i have yet to talk with daughter, but consulted with GSN for several hours last night. Do not know the answer, but know that Xis doing the alienation game for sure, and knows that i am in a difficult spot financially, which is always when she tries to make power plays. always has.

yeah, i am very upset, mostly because i can't provide for my kids in the way i had been, and was told the reason why X wanted a divorce was that i was too rich and independent. So i get hammered by her which ever way she can use, doesn't matter that the current reason contradicts the past reasons. . . ..

wiftty

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Hey Wifty,

All about control and parental alienation.....good friend/parent, bad parent/enemy.

Counsellor said be flexible, not possible in terms of changing visitation, but you can work out any arrangement with your d when she is with you to have sleep overs etc...., sorry. This situation is not good for d, not good for you, but is good for X as it keeps you in conflict/emeshed with her and this is what she is all about (I think....)

X will push your buttons and try constantly to make you out to be the bad guy in this sorry mess. I admire your struggle to remain involved in your children's lives even though X is trying her very best to destroy your relationship with the kids by making it impossible. Many non-custodial parents would have walked long ago justifying that "it is better for the kids with no conflict" Dang, it would have been easier for me to walk out of my kids lives and leave them to their father and OW (now fiancee and soon to be wife...!!!) but that I could not do as father a very toxic parent and OW even worse....simply made it impossible for me to parent, and my kids lost out big time, but I did what I could and can and it has not been easy, but only 1 at home and she is doing very well...after struggling for 3 and a half years emulating father's behaviour and now not!

Kids will either get it or they will not, but you will know for you, that you stayed and did your best.

I think that an e-mail to X reminding her that all written agreements re visitation are not flexible and remain in effect. Not negatiable PERIOD. Do not explain, do not justify, simple facts.

Tell your kids this as well. Put the year's calendar in writing. ...times of pick up, times and dates of drop off, things you must be notified about. The children are old enough to know when they will be with you. You then take the control away from X and give it to the kids. So if they are not able to be where they are supposed to, or do not want to, then they take ownership and have to negotiate this with you, not X and her allies...

Good luck
I hope I read this all correctly.

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thanks willbok,

our agreement was written as "vacations by agreement" because I was being cooperative with her at the time, and so was she. Now i am having difficulty finding a new job, and asking for temporary relief, and she is getting pissed. like i made too much money first, and now not enough money, and I am getting rejected as overqualified, and i could anticipate that 2 years ago??

I went to pick up daughter earlier in week, and they could not find the specific clothes, so X comes out and asks me since she can't find the clothes, so i have any other suggestions? i shake my head no, and she got pissed. I really don't. . .

Something is going on , and I don't know what it is, but its something big. because the only time X goes to counselors is to get backup for her own way.

I just can't believe my life is taking this turn now, its like a bad cartoon, on infinite looping.

As far as son, he and i get along pretty well, as best i can tell. We have some great conversations when he does talk to me. I still go to all of his games, and he gets hammered for not cooperating, but at 14 at a boarding school, he is learning fast, and well. He is doing better than expected academically for him, although we have identified his weaknesses and he is working on them, which is good.

wiftty

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Its something about either X's boyfriend or parents in the vicinity that cause her to get very uncooperative, very disrespectful and manipulative.

Other times, when she is alone, is very sweet and charming. . . its just when those others that she has to impress as tough, she uses me.

the other night, i email her and she called back and was all sweet, helpful, charming, etc. because she felt she was needed or wanted. . .

if she doesn't feel needed, she doesn't feel loved. kinda weird.

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X refuses to discuss schedules with me,

has daughter do all the talking. . .

I can't decide how to handle this,

i suspect that the best way is to get a legal order for entire family counseling.

wiftty

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Wifty......You are talking about parenting time...right?
This can be mediated....and a written agreement in place with no flexibility.

Have your parent time and schedule worked out, your X should do the same and then see where the commonalities are etc and work through this.

You might find this a cathartic experience in letting your frustrations and feelings out re this mess with kids visitation and also hear X's issues.

As the children get older they will decide what is good for them somewhat....but your X will continue to pull them in...after all it is all about her, not about the kids needs and especially not about your role as the father of your children......and this is not good for the children.

I am sorry that you are not able to find steady work and support your family as you would like to, but this should never ever be used against you in terms of visitation....apples and oranges, but your X will try to muddy the waters with this as well.

Good luck and let me know.....unless you do things differently, you will always dance to her tune.

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Wifty,

You said,
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">$12/hour constant work is child support requirement</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Could you explain what that means? We live in the same state. My H was unemployed for two years, and preferred to not work rather than take just any job. He finally accepted a job paying about a third of what he used to earn, and he only has to work about 2/3 of full-time, and that is fine with the judge. The court refused to make him look for additional hours or to continue to look for a better-paying job.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">our agreement was written as "vacations by agreement" because I was being cooperative with her at the time, and so was she. Now i am having difficulty finding a new job, and asking for temporary relief, and she is getting pissed.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Am I missing something? Do these two sentences have something to do with each other?

I don't understand about the sleepovers. Is you daughter asking to have sleepovers with her friends at her mother's house rather than yours? As a mother of daughters, I don't think I would allow my kids to spend the night with their friends when the only adult present was male - it is just too risky. I can understand why she would want to have the sleepover at her mother's house, and between soccer and softball and all the other things kids are signed up for, it is difficult to find time for a sleepover except during vacation.

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Here's the problem, in a nutshell:

the lessons being taught and learned at X's house are:

1) Agreements are meaningless because we can disregard them whenever we want, because if WE can plan something better, or think up an excuse, then we can just change the agreement.

But only change the agreement if it suits us, not the other way around.

Basically, my X planned some activities for d, which she knew she couldn't because it was my week, and she couldn't do it on her weekend with the BF, and used the counselors to validate the reason and to put pressure on me.

Her family has been making up excuses to do whatever they want forever, and we used to laugh at her dad for buying a new car because he had a flat.

Well crap on me for not seeing it as a red flag that she would fall back into when needed.

wiftty

<small>[ April 20, 2003, 06:18 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

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Wifty,
Truly I not only understand what you are talking about, I have walked in your shoes and still do a little bit.
That is why I believe a mediated agreement, with a provision for penalties (can be extra time etc...first choice re a holiday time or something creative...NOT monetary) if agreement broken. You have nothing to lose by trying this route...unless you want to be on the same roller coaster for many more years. X will not change, so it is all up to you......you can either retain the status quo, walk away from kids or try to make it work for kids and you ...and X as well.

The difference is (for the most part) I HAVE taught my children that there is respect for people and there is disrespect....changing agreed plans if a better one comes along is disrespectful.

What I did was tough love with my young adults sons ...they changed agreed plans on me (e.g. X insisted that they have dinner with him only when they had existing plans with me) and I then would not change my existing plans for another time to accomodate them....my sons finally are "getting it."... but your children are too young (as is my daughter) and would see this as abandonment, that is why I suggest mediation for you.
You have nothing to lose.
You might also want to ask the mediator to talk to the children to see what they want.

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Wiffty,

I am heading for bed, but since you posted on what is going on after I asked, I thought I'd better post...

I'm exhausted though because I've been at the beach for the last two days...

Anyway...

You are so smart, I have been on here long enough to know that. Therefore, you will find a job, so don't give up on that.

Your ex pushes your buttons more than anyone in your life. I think she must of hurt you pretty badly. I know you are over her, but you still seem to hold a lot of resentments.

You had mentioned she agreed to co-parent, and now doesn't seem to do that. My ex and I co-parent, however, we often don't have the same values or beliefs and he does his thing and I have to do mine. For instance, I don't agree to listening to music with really bad words in it, ex however, lets my son listen as long as the lyrics are fine with him, regardless of the words. So, Who wins? Neither of us, I just instill in him what I think is right and when ex with him he has his own rules on this...

Same with your ex, perhaps on somethings it's a matter of neither one of you will ever agree...Like the birthday thing. Maybe your ex thinks it's the children's responsibility to get presents, whereas you think it's the parents responsibility to make sure the children get them for the parents. Both of you just think different.

Don't get me wrong in thinkin' I am siding with her on this...By no means am I siding with her on it. I think you are right, your daughter needs to be with you on the days you have her and if she wants sleep overs she needs to do these at your house as well.

Regarding the counselor, perhaps the counselor was saying "be flexible" to come up with a compromise, like if your ex gets more time during your week, you agree she comes up with more time to give you the next few weeks.

What the counselor doesn't realize is your ex breaks these agreements. So therefore, you no longer feel safe to make them anymore.

If I were you, I would keep my conversations short with your ex. You can not convince her of anything. Just tell her your time with your daughter is your time and although you understand she loves being with the children, you do too and you need your time. Then let it go with that....

If she gets mad, let her get mad, but set your boundaries.

Perhaps try this as well. Tell her you lost faith in her being flexible with you and tell her when she can start being more flexible with you and allowing you to see the children on your off days, you will start doing the same.

Regarding your daugher. You told the counselor you get angry when someone disrespects agreement or not cooperate with other agreements...your daughter needs to feel safe talking to you about anything. I think you need to reconsider your actions towards her and this is where I would also think the counselor is trying to say...be more flexible, especially with your daughter. Sometimes agreements can be compromised and amended, your daughter knowing your flexible and "spontaneous" hehe...like me <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> is important. (had to throw that one in!)

C'ya,

ANNA

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">X refuses to discuss schedules with me,

has daughter do all the talking. . .

I can't decide how to handle this,

i suspect that the best way is to get a legal order for entire family counseling. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You need to talk to Counselor or your new counselor if you were able to find one... This is blatant abuse of the child by putting them in the middle!!! They are not her Gopher...... and if she is not woman enough to handle her own issues and ability to discuss parenting issues... then she needs to take a PARENTING CLASS to find out what a parent should do!!!!!

Mary played this game also for a long time.... I could see the affects on the kids and I decided I would not play the game nor allow the kids to be put in the middle......

You need to start playing hardball!!!!

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I know. . . i am waiting for a call back from a lawyer friend who knows the name of a killer lawyer, but he is away for the weekend, and my lawyer is thinking about it <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> Its the only state in the union where today is a holiday.

and d just missed her horseback riding lesson test. i had a choice, going to see son play in a lacrosse game, which there will be another one on wednesday, or go to d's test to move up.

Well, X forgot about the test, or has some other excuse, etc. i haven't cried for awhile, but this time, this really sucks. When they ask where she is, i just say that her mom went crazy, and i have no idea, which is just about the truth.

wiftty

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i just say that her mom went crazy, and i have no idea, which is just about the truth.

Oops..... dont play her games.... no names.... you will hang yourself.....

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I would inform the counselor of two things.
Your time with your D is your time. Unless she is scheduled for lessons, school, etc. you will talk to her yourself about what she wants to do with you on your time. Your X cannot dictate to you what D does on your time.
Secondly, schedule a session or two with this counselor so you and your D can make some rules for communication. This will show the counselor you are more than willing to be a great daddy.
Your D will learn consistancy by having rules.
She will be able to rely on these rules and rely on you no matter what her mother tells her.
Put them in writing and laminate them. Put them on your wall. She will know you mean what you say.
One more thing. Plan B the X.
God bless you.

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Wiffty,

When it's your time with your daughter, call her in advance and make plans with her--get her a calender to write down her activities on..

that way she knows, this week I am with Dad, so don't make plans w/ mom..or with friends until after I've first discussed it with dad to see if it's okay with him..

My niece called once and asked if my daughter could stay the night with her, it was a weekend she was supposed to be w/ her dad, I told my daughter..I'm sorry but, I can't give permission to do that, as that was her weekend w/ her dad,
but she could call her dad and ask HIM if it was okay..knowing it would cause him to lose spending that time w/ her..

So now, when they are making plans to do things
they find out when dad is going to be in town and make plans around that..mostly for weekends he isn't here..and if something is going on they want to do and it's his weekend w/ them, they call and discuss it with him BEFORE they make the plans..

If they want someone to spend the night and it's his weekend, they call him and ask if they can stay the night at his house w/ them..

This forces them to build their relationship w/ their dad..and takes me out of their relationship

talk to your daughter, and let her know, that if she knows it's your week or weekend to be with her that she can call you and discuss any plans before hand..and if she'd like to have someone stay the night, to call you and discuss it with you..because it concerns your relationship w/ her
not her relationship w/ her mom..

And if X gets mad because she's not in the loop
to darn bad...it doesn't concern her..as she is no longer your wife...

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Well,

i had a long discussion with ms teacher and ms people person that tells me to listen, but is stone deaf, to the daughter.

She wants to stay at mom's house because she can't have sleep overs at her mom's house on mom's weekend, with the BF and his kids there. Typical blended family stuff, and then trying to manipulate me, and blame me

After talking to the daughter, I called back to the X, told her to listen and i just told her my story, and told her what i heard, and told her how i handled the same incident i had last summer, with my GF and her family, We solved our problem by agreeing to split up to get family time together, and so both families spent the day apart, and this did wonders for all involved.

The X is now starting to hear how forcing blended families together is not so easy, and causes alot of internal problems. Lets hope she can learn from it, and not blame others, or not try to manipulate everyone some more.

I haven't forced myself, and am working this slowly, probably too slowly, but am not giving up.

wiftty

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