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Pleeeeze, Student, I beg you .... do NOT kiss my "self-righteous beehind" .... it will get Susan all jealous. Suz has my beautiful butt all kissed up, and I couldn't stand any more.

And, Student, pleeeze do NOT grovel. It is too hard to see your beautiful face with your nose in the dirt.

My revenge? LOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> What the F are you talkin' 'bout girl? Revenge for what? I really am having a good laugh over this. My desire is to inflict love upon your soul. If you see revenge in my intent .... point it out. I am NOT hurting or in pain. I am in love, I am happy, I am joyful. Aren't you? My revenge ..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

"A lowly, horrible, cheating two timer who has forgiven herself." ..... Wonderful! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> This is the best outcome after soul searching. This is a good thing. I am over "it" .... whatever "it" you choose.

If you have forgiven yourself, and found peace, then why are you still so pissed off so much of the time? Where is your thorn? Do you borrow anger off of the less fortunate here on MB? Those who still struggle to find peace and resolution after their 15 rounds in the ring with Adultery?
Pep

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 10:06 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> it will get Susan all jealous. Suz has my beautiful butt all kissed up, and I couldn't stand any more.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ummmmm...Pep???...this doesn't make me sound too good. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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Suz ..... my butt doesn't need kissing .... cuz YOU and I are THE queens who love each other ..... doublewide (you) and triplewide (me).

Student thinks I want her to kiss my butt cuz she's a FWS. I deciline the offer. Student was not here for our April Fools Lesbian thread .... and she may get confused by my reference. (Sorry Student .... that "beehind kissing" remark of yours got me off on a tangent. Susan and I played a trick on MB .... and we got the moderator to wag a parental finger at us .... "No-no ...Bad girls")

Pep <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

<small>[ April 26, 2003, 10:19 PM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

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In that case Pep...kiss my butt. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I'm turning the other cheek. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

goodnight...Suz <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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Student,

I don't believe that you have forgiven yourself. I believe that you look upon yourself with anger, but will not allow yourself to see it. You lash out at very simple thoughts as if they were biting you. You jump at the 'others' as if they were beating you.

You seem to have a "Do unto others, before they have a chance to do it to you." attitude.

Had you truly forgiven yourself, none of these words by the other posters would have bothered you. You would realize that they are angry, and you might even feel empathy if not sympathy for them. But a reaction such as yours smacks of deciet. Not to anyone other than you however. And how could someone so wise and who has been on 'both sides of the fence' ever mislead yourself?

The simple fact that you didn't learn that the pain, when you were betrayed, could be infliceted on another means nothing, until you are the one inflicting the pain. Just because you can say, "It happened to me" doesn't mean that you have a clue what actually happened to you.

And most on this board do not care enough about a WS who attempts to justify. Which by repeatedly saying that you know MORE or BETTER because you have been there... I would say you must know less by having been there. Because you didn't learn from the mistake that your first husband made in your marriage. Or perhaps you did... He got away with infidelity so you thought you should as well.

Just realize that whatever you say here really doesn't mean anything. But the anger in your heart when you post burns you. I don't care if I am the WS or the BS... What I care about is that your anger in your responses only hurts you and your case.

I feel for you... whether you care or not. Someday you might just realize that others can care about you, in spite of your history. And it DOES matter what others think about you when you live in this world.

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pepperband,

this is fun, isn't it?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Student:

The way you people latch onto a remorseful WS is well, like maggots on a rotting corpse. Their pain feeds your need for revenge, especially if that pound of flesh wasn't something you got from YOUR WS."

First of all ....the "you people" comment gives you away Student. You are scared. Your bravado is phoney. You are (at least for the moment) an angry, frightened little girl stomping her feet and screaming about "you people". The big, bad "you people". Who exactly is "you people" anyway? Are you having an adult conversation? Or, are you ranting / venting frustration. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I were scared, I wouldn't keep posting. Just because you have a hard time hearing what I have to say doesn't mean I'm angry. Who are "you people"? well, I suppose I didn't have the inclination to go back through every post and name each person who couldn't help getting their digs in at Jen's expense. There are quite a few here on this thread.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "like maggots on a rotting corpse" ..... This is a unique way to describe your fellow human beings here on MB. Do you see yourself in either the corpse or the maggot category? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No. I see myself as the bird picking the maggots off, thank you very much.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"their pain feeds your need for revenge" .... Does calling other human beings "maggots" or "corpses" feed YOUR need for revenge? This larva / rotting flesh reference must represent some deep personal meaning to you. I wonder what it might be? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Actually, you're right about one thing. The reference does have a deep personal meaning to me. When my cat was near death, her backside erupted in maggots one day--an area about an inch in diameter. I had been giving her daily sponge baths. That is how I found them. I picked each and every one out with tweezers. It seems her skin had started become necrotic, poor thing.

I think about how only BS's here are allowed to have any complaints about their marriage or to have any pain. The WS's only exist here to provide the BS's with a target....a carcass to feed on. Sorry you find the analogy distasteful. I only come to the rescue of remorseful WS's, in case you failed to notice.

"need for revenge" .... Yes, I see some of that going on. I am sorry you feel that need.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"that pound of flesh" .... Yet another interesting remark. I think this is how YOU feel about yourself. I certainly do not see you that way. It must hurt like hell being inside your skin. Your pound of flesh. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"pound of flesh"--it is just a phrase to describe what BS's are often given license to carve off after an affair is confessed/discovered and what WS's are expected to offer in return for "forgiveness". If a BS becomes angry/abusive, then it is considered "consequences" and they are not expected to be held responsible for their behavior. Nope. They are hurting and in pain and just about anything they do short of killing their WS is A-OK and overlooked. Only WS's are expected to take responsibility for their behavior. Even after a divorce, a BS can say "our marriage ended because they had an affair", further relinquishing any responsibility whatsoever in the failure of the marriage. It is hypocritical.

My "victimhood" is not any heavier than the pedestal you carry around to place on top of any FWS's who cross your path.

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formerly confused,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just because you can say, "It happened to me" doesn't mean that you have a clue what actually happened to you.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">oh great. now people are telling me what I'm supposed to think/feel about what happened to me. It just never ends. What, if I don't consider infidelity to be worse than being raped or being abused then I'm not in touch with my feelings? sorry to disappoint you. Just because some people may not have any similar life changing events to compare with infidelity, doesn't make mine any less relevant. In fact, I consider the comparison to be insulting to anyone who ever has been raped or seriously abused. Maybe that is what bothers me about it so much. People who have no friggin' clue about rape or abuse telling me how infidelity is soooo awful. Even worse when it is done for dramatic effect.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He got away with infidelity so you thought you should as well.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I believed that, I wouldn't have confessed.
That said, if I had it to do over again, I would not have confessed and do not recommend confession to anyone who wants to remain married, especially a woman who has no kids. In my case, I should have just gotten a divorce instead of confessing and trying to salvage my marriage. At the time, I didn't have the courage to get a divorce. I didn't want to live with the stigma of being divorced a second time and so I coped in a bad way.

My second H told me before my affair that he didn't want to be married to me anymore. That is after I told him I was afraid of him. The last thing on my mind was whether he'd be hurt. His words and actions showed he didn't give a sh*t about me. He was just pissed that some other dog cr*pped on his lawn, that's all.

This is why I will never remarry. If I were faced with the same sort of situation that I faced with my second H, I know I would have an affair rather than seek a divorce. I would not confess, and if I were confronted, I would lie. Yep, I'd rather do all those things than be divorced again..so I'm better off just not going there. So, as you can see, I'm not misleading myself in the slightest.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I feel for you... whether you care or not. Someday you might just realize that others can care about you, in spite of your history. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't really need your pity. I do have a boyfriend who cares about me in spite of my history....man, you say that like I'm supposed to be surprised or something.

What I would like to see is for people to stop kicking FWS's when they are down. I'd like to see FWS's be able to get recognition for the pain they are suffering as a result of their marriage falling apart without someone calling it justification or telling them they have it coming (I'm not holding my breath). It is very, very likely those problems were there before the affair happened and they have just as much right to their FEELINGS about their marriage as anyone else does.

By focusing solely on the pain of the BS--going on and on and on and on and on and on about what a horrible thing they did, blah, blah, the message you send is that a FWS is not worth a sh*t...which is often how they felt before their affair in the first place...like you care <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> By doing so, some of you folks make it alot more likely that a FWS will be abused, perhaps severely, by a BS. After having come here off and on for quite awhile, I can only assume that is what some people here want, gauging by some of the responses to Jen's thread here.

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 01:24 AM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</small>

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Wow, you folks sure have had some interesting "banter" today, haven't you? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

TheStudent: I am going to try to limit my remarks to you. For one, if you disagree with MB principles, then why do you come here? Two, I think Formerlyconfused has hit the nail on the head: "I don't believe that you have forgiven yourself...You lash out at very simple thoughts as if they were biting you. You jump at the 'others' as if they were beating you."

You seem to have built up walls around yourself, walls of pride, intellectualism, a refusal to get married again, all of the words you throw out here to seemingly defend and protect yourself....I am sad to see someone who seems to be hurting so much but who staunchly refuses to acknowledge it so she can heal and move on. Have you been for IC?

I genuinely appreciate your concern that I may be the flavour of the month or scapegoat of the month, or whatever for some BS to potentially exact a pound of flesh from. But you know what? Rarely does that happen.

Okay now everyone, take a deep breath, and go back and focus on yourselves, your marriages, and your own lives, and let the wild tensions of this thread go for now! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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Jen,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But you know what? Rarely does that happen. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry for hijacking your thread. I'm glad my "services" aren't needed. Maybe some things have changed around here. I kinda doubt it though. You did say:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">For those of you that think it's time to attack a FWS and try to make her see how much pain she has caused, I have been living and breathing that pain, and am more than well aware of it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Obviously, it still happens enough for you to say this though. I rest my case. I read through a few more posts after this comment, and people still didn't let up. A few examples...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well, my suggestion is to learn to accept that you have made a mistake that is tops on the gossip list, is one that is grave and serious, and can break trust irrepairably. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well duh. And the sky is blue, and the sun is yellow. Any other brilliant observations?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> If he blames you, why should he keep quiet about it, you messed up and he's hurt, what do you think he's going to say?? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">More of the "whatever a BS does is ok" stuff.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">"I am Jen, a recovering cheater" </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">sorry. I don't think a three week affair qualifies as an addiction.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Basically, your reputation is based upon what you are like and what you have done. I think that if the shoe fits... Then perhaps the reputation is deserved...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Isn't this encouraging? I think this came from the same guy who told me people care (?) and someone will love me in spite of my "history". Another one of those backhanded compliments.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I would hate being on the other side... I would hate for my H to say some of the things I say! </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thanks for sharing!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I want to tell you personally that although I abhore what you did... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I loved this one. This happens all the time. Every real compliment is usually prefaced by a comment like this one. It is the same thing as saying "even though you are butt ugly, I'm sure you have some nice qualities somewhere". Sheesh.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Cut him some slack for a while... he deserves to rail against the pain that he feels. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS takes a holiday from responsibility: Take 2.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It might be hard, but hey, I guarantee it isn't as hard as what he has to deal with. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Like he would know.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> You do show me that sometimes lapses in judgement can be just that...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think this one was actually supposed to be a compliment. Same guy who had to remind you how abhorent your behavior was.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I WILL concede, in his defense, is that the betrayal involved his best friend. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In case you forgot it was his best friend, as if you could forget. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I am sad to see someone who seems to be hurting so much but who staunchly refuses to acknowledge it so she can heal and move on. Have you been for IC? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It's you who is going to be needing more IC if you stay here and be subjected to this stuff. I've got a thick skin, mostly from hearing the same old record played over and over again. That's why I feel the need to jump in sometimes.

There were a handful of people though, who were genuinely kind and refrained from throwing in any digs. Sometimes it is worthwhile to dig through the cr*p to find the pearls.

and to answer the question...why do I come here? It is more interesting than watching the SEM index Kikuchi patterns at 4:00 in the morning. That's what I'm doing right now. What are Kikuchi patterns? It is the pattern given off by electrons that diffract off of a crystal lattice, in this case, they are bouncing off of Ti-6Al-4V crystal lattices. A computer program captures the image, which then gives you a map of the material's grain orientation. How's that for hiding behind my intellectualism? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 03:11 AM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</small>

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"I'm sorry you find the analogy distasteful."

..... NOT distasteful ..... I find the analogy UNTRUE. It's a phoney.

"the pedestal you carry around to place on top of any FWS's who cross your path."

Please, point out to me ANY SINGLE post I have ever made (since 2000) where I have placed a pedestal that I carry on any FWS's who have crossed my path.

..... This is also UNTRUE. It's a phoney.

"Only WS's are expected to take responsibility for their behavior."

This is UNTRUE. It's a phoney.

I am responsible for some pretty disgusting behavior. Read my responses to Queen of a Broken Heart on GQII. "URGENT. help! H told OW it was over with her, Any traps I need to look out for?"

You can see my self-righteous beehind and my shiney moral pedestal on that thread.... NOT.

Do you think you are the only woman on MB who has been faced with her former reprehensible choices? I am concerned for people who are about to step into the snake pit. People can recover from these moral quagmires, and those of us who are lucky enough to have survived should not be labled self-righteous if we try to warn others about the great harm they are about to inflict on themselves and others.

You, as a woman are angry for a different reason. I think it has something to do with the fact that screaming out at MB "YOU PEOPLE" gives you the phoney sense of intellectual superiority.

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pepperband,

I really have no idea where you get this intellectual superiority thing.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Please, point out to me ANY SINGLE post I have ever made (since 2000) where I have placed a pedestal that I carry on any FWS's who have crossed my path.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, here ya go...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Your moral standards present a threat to me. I much prefer a world view replete with moral relativism, and cynicism. I am not willing to apply a value or make a judgment based on moral standards."

Having a damaged world view does not make one an intellectual superior. Get over it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You've implied that your moral standards are superior to mine. In the context of our discussion, I believe it had something to do with the fact that I don't consider infidelity to be as bad or worse than rape or abuse. My damaged world view? Oh, you mean the one that comes from personal, first hand experience? Sorry if reality intrudes on ya'lls little pity party here. Maybe you all need to take a deep breath and count your blessings, folks, that infidelity is the worst thing YOU have ever been through and your life has been so "blessed" that you have nothing else to compare it with. That is a whole lot different than actually believing it is the worst thing that could ever happen to someone, sweetie.

oh, and see the list of "you people" up above? All "you people" who can't miss an opportunity to kick a FWS when they are down? You've met your match with me folks. I won't be shamed into submission like you prefer your WS's here.

Jen,
I really hope you are paying attention. I got here late in the game to know all that is going on with your marriage right now. However, I have to believe that some of the same people who posted what I quoted above are the same ones who think you should "cut your H some slack" when he uses you for sex and says and does whatever else he wants to do. I hope you know that you don't deserve to be disrespected.

Only you can decide what to do with your life--in the meantime, I'll be the one putting your H's butt in the same fire BS's put unremorseful WS's in here. Responsibility cuts both ways folks. Just because someone is a BS doesn't give them a free JERK card.

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Student .... I have been through worse. What makes you think I haven't?

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"Yes I think it is selfish to expect another person to honor their vows when they are unrealistic and harmful."

Yes, Student, you are correct. The "harmful" honoring of one's vows is a terrible blight to society! If you are talking about a woman honoring her vows while her H is raining fists upon her face, say so. And, we will agree and try to get battered women out of harm's way in unison. But, harmful means dangerous (to me, anyway). I also believe it is HARMFUL to break one's vows in absence of a real and present danger. Not just marriage vows. I've taken many vows. As a juror. As a medical professional. As an adoptive mother. Last week I took a vow (along with H and out teenage daughter) as we swore we had completed her passport forms without fraud.

When we break our vows, we harm ourselves. We subtract from our integrity. We commit fraud against our honor.

Rape and abuse ..... are terrible. My son and daughter were abused by their birth mother in utero. They were abused in the worst way by the very person who was supposed to love and protect them.This does not give them license to violate any vows they take in their life!!!

"Intellectual superiority thing"

Well ..... forgive me if I have misread your meaning when you said: ".... chucked that talent to be an elementary school teacher. Noble, I guess, but it seemed like a waste."

A waste? Why is teaching children a waste of talent? I may be wrong (it won't be the first time) but this looks as if you distain women taking on traditional roles when they have a choice. She made a choice, while she had other options .... isn't that what REAL feminism is all about?

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TheStudent:

You found the thread I had jumped in on with JordanP. Yes, that one did get ugly and I found myself defending myself again. She didn't have the whole story and indeed started pointing out the obvious to me, as did some on this thread.

Don't worry, I don't think that I should cut my H "some more slack" and give him heaps more of time to decide. I have more self-respect than that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Just because someone is a BS doesn't give them a free JERK card. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">INDEED INDEED INDEED. Sounds a lot like the last thing I said to him, something similar to: "Just because you've been hurt and you've lost someone you love doesn't give you a license to treat people however you want."

Maybe you are right, maybe my addiction to posting at MB may be part of what keeps my guilt alive and at times unbearable.

I do have one question for you and Pepper though. What is this remark all about? </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Well ..... forgive me if I have misread your meaning when you said: ".... chucked that talent to be an elementary school teacher. Noble, I guess, but it seemed like a waste." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Being a teacher is not a noble waste of intelligence. It is a worthwhile and much-needed role in society. If there were no teachers, no one could go on to post-secondary studies, and avail themselves to "watching the SEM index Kikuchi patterns" and understanding them. But let's not get off on an anti-teacher thread. The point of this site is to build marriages, and I think this thread either needs to refocus itself or die.

Jen

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This thread caught my eye as I have similar issues (what to tell people about my divorce... a messy and needlessly hurtful experience, aside from the actual irreconcileable issues). But I registered to comment on the argument between student and a few other posters. When I read the the comment about the woman who choose to be a schoolteacher instead of pursuing some other intellectual goals I didn't hear student being dismissive of teaching. It also seemed that those who chastised her were self-serving....sort of an I gotcha now thing, and weren't really defending teaching. The sense I got from reading the thread in toto, was student was suggesting the woman sold herself out, abandoned a socially less acceptable route (the independent intellectually successful woman) for a more traditional female role, teaching.

If this woman freely chose from all options, and had found a passion for teaching, and chose to follow that dream, that is great and I do not think student would object at all. This seems to be almost a bash session against this poster for having ideas unpopular to a segment of the people who post here. Perhaps they feel threatened, and see a need to demean her thereby refuting her message by killing the messenger..... a fairly common occurence when passionate topics are debated on-line I have noticed (or in real life, although people there are more motivated to be less confrontational in making their points).

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Student-((interesting name for one who knows all...??))you seem to have all the answers? heres a new question- if you were so abused and smart....why didn't you leave your H instead of inflicting an A on a union that offered so little hope? doesn't seem that you gained anything.....am I missing something??

PEACE OUT

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I also think the response about vows (by pepperband) was too narrow (perhaps to make her argument prevail). Arbitrarily defining "harmful" as only immediate physical danger implies all other vows must be followed mindlessly without recourse. Student also said unrealistic. Vows, are like any other rule, made to be broken. Otherwise one womans vows becomes another womans chains. We all need to live healthy lives, and if that includes leaveing a marriage that is not a healthy place, then one (obviously) needs to feel empowered to decide the vow is unrealistic.

The comments about terrible blight on society were entertaining, but the hyperbole did not make any points. Clearly vows (and all committments and promises) are important elements of a successful society, I didn't see student saying otherwise. But to make all promises, vows, committments inviolate would create a despotic world as well (defined by those who make the rules, and have the power to enforce them...not what democracy is all about), unclear where that is preferable to a world where no one can count on promises.

The answere lies somewhere in the middle, right where student implied...the vow must be realistic, must make sense....and saying one can only leave a marriage when there is a clear and present danger to ones physical safety is nonsense. The fact is, anyone will break a vow if sufficient reason exists to do so. Vows are sort of like locks on doors, they keep the honest people honest....but if your neighbor percieves a need to do so, they will break your door down in a heartbeat. I am certain all those other vows mentioned would be violated if pepperband saw sufficient reason to do so. But I agree it is desireable to have vows/promises/committments as a framework for society, and interpersonal interactions, as long as everyones well-being is important, and understood the vows can and will be released/violated if needed. The argument would be over what circumstances justify such, and no doubt there will never be 100% consensus on any defined set of cirumstances....nor should there be, we are all unique individuals, empowered to make our life be what we want it to be, one size does not fit all. Unfortuneately this pretty much gaurantees marital discord, and divorce, as people have different expectations, and usually do not get all of this out in the open and resolved before marrying (not to mention the multitude of people with various personal issues/shortcomings that can make marriage more of an ordeal, than a joy.....the suggested definition of vows means those in such marriages are doomed to a lifetime of trying to cope for their bad marital choice, that makes no sense at all).

This seemed to be tied into some issues student had with how unfaithful spouses are treated on this site. I have read here for awhile, and find the concepts very interesting, and useful in relationships, have learned a lot. But I do see a strong bias toward moral righteousness simply because one was betrayed. That doesn't make any real sense to me, since obviously many betrayed spouses are pretty screwed up people too. I go along with those who suggest infidelity is simply a learning experience for all parties, and it is what you learn (and do about it) that is important. Those who choose to feel superior because they were betrayed obviously havn't learned very much. And those who wallow in self-pity show they are not very desireable partners as well. As for those who roam about like some sort of moral police pointing out (often in a deceptively caring/concerned way) the moral shortcomings of an unfaithful individual, while guiding them back to the route they have ordained is needed for their salvation....well who appointed them...nuff said.

Fact is their are lots of pretty lousy marital partners who are betrayed, just like their are lots of unfaithful spouses who are lousy marital partners...has nothing to do with who is in what role. As to the for the original author of this thread (Jen). I would say you just tell people the truth, the unvarnished facts, if you want them to know....if your personal life is of no business to them...then tell them you prefer not to discuss the reasons. If you fear gossip etc. I do think taking action is indicated, and would tell people, you don't wish to discuss it, but they can expect to hear various lies.

<small>[ April 27, 2003, 11:08 AM: Message edited by: sufdb ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This seems to be almost a bash session against this poster for having ideas unpopular to a segment of the people who post here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I agree subdb. I think the productiveness of this thread may have been lost a couple pages ago.

Perhaps we should get this thread back on topic (What do you tell people who ask why you divorced?) or leave, and start your own thread, please.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> But I do see a strong bias toward moral righteousness simply because one was betrayed. That doesn't make any real sense to me, since obviously many betrayed spouses are pretty screwed up people too. I go along with those who suggest infidelity is simply a learning experience for all parties, and it is what you learn (and do about it) that is important. Those who choose to feel superior because they were betrayed obviously havn't learned very much. And those who wallow in self-pity show they are not very desireable partners as well. As for those who roam about like some sort of moral police pointing out (often in a deceptively caring/concerned way) the moral shortcomings of an unfaithful individual, while guiding them back to the route they have ordained is needed for their salvation....well who appointed them...nuff said. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very well put. I suppose those of us FWS (and WS) who post here are like outlets for some BS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As to the for the original author of this thread (Jen). I would say you just tell people the truth, the unvarnished facts, if you want them to know....if your personal life is of no business to them...then tell them you prefer not to discuss the reasons. If you fear gossip etc. I do think taking action is indicated, and would tell people, you don't wish to discuss it, but they can expect to hear various lies. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thank-you for a simple, clear-cut, non-biased answer. The last part about mentioning that they may hear various lies may in fact become something I need to say.

Thanks for chiming in on this thread sufdb.

Jen

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Dear Jen Brown,

I sincerely apologize to you for my idiotic participation in hi-jacking your thread. It was wrong of me to help drag the subject so far off topic. I have no excuse, because I know better.

In no way do I want to imply that your dilemma is trivial or unimportant. This is, in fact, a very interesting, and important subject.

Please accept my apologies for my rude mis-behavior.

Sincerely,

Pep

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