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Hi Jen,

I remember how hard it was to forgive myself, and I too spent way too much time on MB way back when. I think coming here greatly delayed the process of self-forgiveness. Contrary to what some want to believe about me, self-forgiveness was not achieved by telling myself that what I did was not important or was OK. It was achieved by realizing that THIS IS NOT ALL THAT I AM.

This process took alot of time. I did it by turning to hobbies that would make me feel good about myself. For instance, I did alot of volunteer work. I rescued two dogs and gave them a home. I made a commitment to being a more thoughtful friend, sister, aunt, and daughter. Eventually I was able to put this event into perspective. It is a part of who I am, but a very small part now. How do you know when you've forgiven yourself? When you feel deep down that the person you were when you did that act is not the person you are anymore. I honestly believe that about myself now. That's what gives me the courage to stand up to people who want to drag me back in that pit.

I know you will reach that point too. However, it is just too tempting for alot of BS's here who are in pain to want to keep a FWS from moving forward. To them, it looks like a lack of remorse. How dare you forgive yourself?!!! However, one thing I learned from all of this is that I do have my limits. While my skin is thicker than most, it is not completely impenetrable. After I post today, I'll have to get back to work and leave for awhile, lest the "noise" here starts seeping in.

There is a really great book called "How good do we have to be? A new understanding of guilt and forgiveness" written by a rabbi named Harold Kushner. I'm not jewish, and there are no religious overtones here. I just liked his style. Also a book called "Forgive and Forget: Healing the Hurts we don't deserve" written by Lewis Smedes has a good section on self-forgiveness. He starts out saying...what if the person we can't forgive is ourselves?

Stay strong. As Eleanor Roosevelt used to say "Noone can make you feel inferior without your permission".

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Thanks so much for this post. Indeed, I have come to realize that my mistakes of last May do not define who I am. I have accepted responsiblity for them, and know that I wouldn't ever be foolish enough to do what I did then ever again, to myself or to anyone else.

But, even when I think I've forgiven myself, and I am sure I'd never behave the same way again, I have, many times, I hit a wall of guilt again, and the cycle starts over. Sometimes it's stuff I read here, sometimes it's interactions with my H, sometimes it's interactions with his family, but it all comes rushing back. The guilt is compounded by the fact that "I did this" to my H during the same year that he lost his father. I should have been there for him and with him (and his father) through it all, but as a result of my drunken and misguided actions, I was not, and I'm still not allowed into my H's life, not really anyway.

I take comfort knowing that I was forgiven by God the first time I asked for forgiveness. But, silly me, when the guilt hits me hard, I pray for forgiveness again and again too. It seems to be part of forgiving myself.

I know that everyone I know that matters to me, EXCEPT for my H, has been able to forgive me, or at least learn to treat me well and behave as though they forgive me or that it doesn't matter to them what went on behind closed doors in a troubled marriage. I'm beginning to get the feeling he'll never fully forgive me, and therefore would always treat me as less than his equal, and that is why I'm thinking more and more like I should cut my losses and move on, and start fresh.

However, then I hear that whole "first marriages have a 50% divorce rate" and "second marriages have a 75% divorce rate" statistic in the back of my head and I wonder if I shouldn't have just a wee bit more patience...

Then my H behaves like an a$$ towards me and I become stronger and have even more resolve not to let anyone treat me poorly, and I am back at wanting a Dv, and to move on and start fresh.

Thanks for the book suggestions, I'll have to look into them when I find some time.

I love that E. Roosevelt quote. I figure this Dr. Phil one is related too: "People treat you the way you let them treat you."

Thanks for reading my ramble, and for seeing things from the sometimes browbeaten FWS point of view!

Just curious, how long ago was your "d-day" and your Dv? Or, how long did it take you to truly forgive yourself?

Jen

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Jen, and TS,

With apologies for barging in, I felt the need to respond to something Jen said. The statistics you quoted are commonly used and are probably reasonably accurate. But, this is not a game of chance where the odds are given and cannot be changed.

If one learns from their mistakes (affair, or in choosing a spouse, etc) then the stats that are quoted don't necessarily hold. The problem lies when people keep doing the same thing. They usually get the same results.

I am not advocating you divorce Jen, but I do think you need to understand that education on your part can go a long way toward affecting how your next marriage might turn out.

I will now leave you in the hands of TS.

God Bless,

JL

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Stats are a good indicator of what everyone else may be doing. The 2nd marriage divorce rate, if everyone was learning and growing, SHOULD BE LOWER. After all, we're all older, wiser, and more experienced now right? The fact that it's not suggests to me that people's (us too) natural inclinations tend to lead them back to situations like their 1st marriage.

If that's the case, we should all look at what those natural inclinations are... and take those as a sign that we're probably either being impulsive or doing the wrong thing. Interestingly... foreign marriages, like a US citizen to someone from another country, have only a 20% divorce rate after 5 years according to INS statistics. Interesting... but not nearly as interesting as seeing that divorce rate after a person's US citizenship is secured! Stats can be misleading. I'd take them as a measure of what "everyone" might be doing. <smiles> Statistically, FWS or FBS we're all doomed to boomerang rebound relationships, anxiety about dating, and other-gender-hate patterns.

Jen, the concept of self-forgiveness is interesting. You'll find your own path. At the very least you know where your breaking point is. You also know that you can't trust your husband's friends... and along with that you shouldn't trust your girlfriends' husbands! That last lesson... geesh, could have saved my marriage; I trusted a friend and my wife too naively. You also know that it drives you nuts when your husband has close women friends... regardless of the story he tells you - it takes his time away from you and that's NOT FAIR unless it's something you've both agreed to. Rebuilding boundaries. Just don't build a boundary against an entire gender. Not all of us are pigs. <oinks... errr - winks>

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JL and Lyxa, thanks for your take on the whole marriage/divorce statistics thing. I can see that statistics are just that.

One of the morbid jokes I have been making is that if my H and I get divorced, we're doing our part to take care of the 50% divorce rate so others can continue happily in their marriage. (The vengeful side of me feels like contacting OM if/when we divorce and telling him he had better be thankful that my H and I did our part in the 50% Dv rate, so he could remain married, but I know better.)

I guess it may sound like I am setting my boundaries against an entire gender. I will forever keep a little more distance between myself and men, but that doesn't mean you're all swine! But I do think just about all human beings are frail enough to engage in inappropriately close behaviour or an A if the conditions are right. What's sad is that I have to build up boundaries between me and my H too (in order to maintain some self-respect!), and I wonder how we'd ever regain the emotional intimacy and trust we once shared.

Jen

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Hi Jen,

let's see. Well, I had my affair in Jan 1998, ended it two weeks later, but didn't confess until around June 1998. Lots of yucky stuff...he cheated on me, said and did lots of other horrible stuff right up to the time he decided to divorce me around April 1999. The turning point was when my mom was diagnosed with cancer. The day after I heard the news, he had invited his new religious right friend over to play video games. Long story short, I moved out the next day. I think he realized I wasn't going to be his punching bag anymore, so he divorced me...and I also think he was hot-to-trot for the sister of one of his friends. While I'm not glad I put up with all that stuff, I am glad I waited for him to divorce me. I am glad I don't have that additional stigma to deal with. We didn't have kids either, so it wasn't like I had to file in order to get custody or anything like that. We'd already separated our assets, so it was just a matter of who was more anxious to date. It sure wasn't me, that's for sure!!

Three months afterward, he called me up to apologize for treating me less than a human being and asked if I could accept his apology. I told him I accepted it, but I didn't know what else to say at the time. Even then, I was still hoping things would turn around, but they didn't. Just like I thought, they were just words. That's all anything ever was with him. Just all talk. I made things so friggin' easy for him, and that still gets to me sometimes.

It took me quite a long time to feel like myself again. First for cheating and second for allowing myself to be treated the way he treated me. I should have never married him. He was mean to me before we were married--but that is another story. I had many issues to contend with--ones that went far beyond just forgiving myself for cheating.

There aren't any books I've ever found written for people like us. Most books on forgiveness talk about how to forgive other people, not yourself. I think you'll have an easier time than I did because you set some boundaries. I'm really glad you've been able to do that. It is really important that you do not let him or anyone degrade you. The humiliation of remembering what I let him say and do to me was almost as bad as the humiliation of remembering what I did to him.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm beginning to get the feeling he'll never fully forgive me, and therefore would always treat me as less than his equal, and that is why I'm thinking more and more like I should cut my losses and move on, and start fresh. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know for a fact that my H would have used this against me for the rest of my life, and I can't imagine being in that situation. I talk about WS's being a "pet poodle". I can say for a fact that there is no way I would be one of those people saying "I'll spend the rest of my life making this up to you." I had to feel like he would be able to see me as a changed person someday, and he wasn't that kind of guy.

He couldn't forgive me for forgetting to replace his razor blade years ago (no joke). He couldn't forgive me for sleeping with the guy I went to the high school prom with--this was a good 8 yrs or so before I ever met him. Is your H like this? Does he have problems forgiving anything? If so, your odds aren't good.

I didn't date for about three years, which I consider one of the best decisions I EVER made. Yes, I completely abstained from the "attentions" of men during that time too.... I think most people would be ok waiting a year--like I said, I had lots of other junk to deal with at the time. It probably took at least 2 years after the divorce for me to feel normal most of the time. Every once in awhile it will creep back in, but only when I'm experiencing some other stressors in my life. That is one thing I learned from this...it is so very important to have a strong support network of friends, family, and a good therapist if you can find one. I didn't have that when the affair happened. I was living far away from anyone I knew, my H was having his own problems. I was prime for an affair.

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Thanks for sharing your story with me TheStudent.

What strikes me at first is that both you and I had/have to contend with an H that is mean to us, and that we both had to come to a realization that we no longer wanted to be anyone's punching bag.

You noted that I've been setting some boundaries. I never would've been wise enough to do so if I hadn't gone for some IC sessions following d-day, and a few more times after I moved out. I learned that I had been so wrapped up in my H, that I'd almost lost a clear sense of myself. It also helps having people here on MB who don't judge me for being a FWS and who genuinely try to help me to stop allowing my H to treat me poorly.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It took me quite a long time to feel like myself again. First for cheating and second for allowing myself to be treated the way he treated me. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Indeed, I struggle on both those fronts too. I hate that I let him treat me poorly. I thought I was a stronger and wiser woman than that. I especially have regrets for letting him tell me "tough, I am going to have close female friends, if you can't make enough time for me and exercising with me." Our marital problems didn't start, as far as I can recall, until my H dragged a female work colleague into his life as a close friend. If only I'd told him to forget it, and told her to leave us the he** alone.

I regret the fact that for the longest while it's felt like I was always the one apologizing, when I didn't feel like I was being treated very well for that matter. And of course I regret choosing to cheat on my H to show my dissatisfaction with the marriage instead of communicating it to him better.

BUT, one of our big problems is that he didn't really want to listen to me anymore. He was always right, and I was privileged to have someone like him in my life to guide me. He's said as much. So it's not like he would've listened if I'd tried to tell him anyway. He would've likely told me I needed to change to make things better anyway. I was always wrong!

I also regret letting him treat me like a grovelling doormat of sorts in the past year. I stuck to his rules (only he could call me, and visit me, I was to leave him alone, and give him his privacy, and not let on to his family we were in contact again). Now he still wants to be the one to contact me. He still isn't willing to be seen in public with me. If he had his way, we'd go on having secret, sexual meetings forever, or so it seems.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I can say for a fact that there is no way I would be one of those people saying "I'll spend the rest of my life making this up to you." I had to feel like he would be able to see me as a changed person someday, and he wasn't that kind of guy. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh my do I ever feel the same way!

I'm not sure how good my H is at forgiving in general. I can't think of any trivial things from years gone by that he won't forgive me for, so maybe there's hope.

It would be so nice if my H would be the one to file for divorce. I don't want that as the third item on my list that makes me feel guilty. I doubt I could wait 3 years to date though. I am 30 and I really want to have kids. I expect it will take me a few years to date someone and feel safe enough with them to want to marry them, then another year or two would pass before kids, and before I know it I could be pushing 40 and done my childbearing years...

2 years.....wow....that's quite some time. But, I do have a fairly good network of friends and family around to support me, thankfully.

You don't have to answer this if it's too personal, but how long had you been married when you had your A, and how old were you and your H?

Jen

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Hi Jen,

Well, I found something more interesting than MB--nanostructured materials. Dragged myself away from that to post a few more. I really should go after this though...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I regret the fact that for the longest while it's felt like I was always the one apologizing, when I didn't feel like I was being treated very well for that matter. And of course I regret choosing to cheat on my H to show my dissatisfaction with the marriage instead of communicating it to him better.

BUT, one of our big problems is that he didn't really want to listen to me anymore. He was always right, and I was privileged to have someone like him in my life to guide me. He's said as much. So it's not like he would've listened if I'd tried to tell him anyway. He would've likely told me I needed to change to make things better anyway. I was always wrong!
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">OMG!! That was me exactly. It got to the point where I felt that "sorry" was about every other word out of my mouth. My ex's mom is just like that. His dad constantly belittles her for the smallest things--right in front of everyone. She just runs around saying "sorry, sorry, sorry". It's so sad. I saw myself becoming like her and it scared the bejeezus out of me.

When I think about the things we did right, they were really, really right. I mean, we never disagreed about money issues. Totally in sync there. Enjoyed alot of the same activities. People talk about relationships getting into this messed up dynamic, and that is what we had. Who knows what would have happened if I had just stood up to him and had the strength to get a separation instead of succumbing to an affair? I always say that it's not the affair that ends the marriage--it is what makes people stop trying.

We were married for 6 yrs and I was 32. Deja vu, huh?

I don't think things will take as long for you as it did for me. This was my second marriage. My first H slept with over 20 women in a year and a half. I waited 5 yrs to marry again, and thought I had done everything right. Given my very awful childhood, two failed marriages, an affair--some major sh*t was wrong with me and my life that was for sure. I decided I had to start from scratch...

so far, so good. The man I am dating now treats me very well. I'm not really anxious to commit to anyone though. If I have kids, I would probably prefer to do it without a man--or at least a full-time one. That's just me. Ok, better get back to it...

<small>[ April 29, 2003, 08:08 PM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</small>

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Jen,

Guess where I'm at? Yep, the SEM... waiting for my run to finish...

I said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Who knows what would have happened if I had just stood up to him and had the strength to get a separation instead of succumbing to an affair? I always say that it's not the affair that ends the marriage--it is what makes people stop trying.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I was walking into work this morning, I remembered how I DID stand up to him over the years when he was mean to me. I DID tell him how much it hurt me. Many, many times. Long before my affair. He didn't care. I wish I would have asked for a separation and found a better counselor for us. But all things considered, I still think we would have ended up divorced. Except for his lame apology after our divorce, he never once could accept that he had ever done anything to hurt me. As far as he was concerned, I was supposed to feel hurt and ashamed when he criticized me. Unfortunately for him, he sucked at picking his battles.

He said more than a few times that he wouldn't have changed a thing. Ok, if he believes that yelling and screaming at your partner, holding long distant events over their head (big and small), and seeing the worst in one's partner is the right way to conduct himself, then I want nothing to do with him. So, I go back to my original statement. I never should have married him in the first place. He treated me like this before I married him.

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Hey, TS,

Your posts on here are mighty different than quite awhile ago. These are some of the best posts i have read from you in a long time.

I just want to say that something has happened within you, something has changed, and your posts reflect someone much better, much wiser, much more confident, something, i can't put my finger on it,

but these posts are definately much better and more positive about you. . . .

just wanted to let you know that someone noticed a change for the better. . .

wiftty

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Sorry it's taken me awhile to post again. Life's been hectic. Check out my thread over on GQ II if you want to hear how pathetic I am at maintaining boundaries: My other thread

When I think about the things we did right, they were really, really right. I mean, we never disagreed about money issues. Totally in sync there. Enjoyed alot of the same activities. People talk about relationships getting into this messed up dynamic, and that is what we had. Who knows what would have happened if I had just stood up to him Yup...something else that could have easily come out of my lips.

We were married for 6 yrs and I was 32. Deja vu, huh?
I don't think things will take as long for you as it did for me.
Déja vu indeed. I wouldn't be so sure about things not taking as long for me. I'm easily manipulated into feeling guilty still, or at least I was last night. And then I get even angrier at myself for letting myself be manipulated, and I need to forgive myself for that too, and on it goes.

So, I go back to my original statement. I never should have married him in the first place. He treated me like this before I married him. In my case I am not comfortable saying I never should have married him, but, he was being emotionally abusive/manipulative to a degree before we married too. On a few occasions over the years while we were dating, he had me bawling in tears, telling me he didn't know if he wanted to still be with me, b/c there were several things about me that he just didn't like, or that just weren't good enough. Stupid, young and naive Jen begged and pleaded in tears for him not to dump me, promised I'd be better, etc.

Something a girlfriend of mine told me last week: "Treat 'em mean, keep 'em keen."

Sounds like something my H used to his advantage many times. Funnily enough, she is realizing that her BF of 9 years has been treating her in a fairly crappy and manipulative manner. Since she's been distancing herself from him, keeping busy without him, etc., he is SO nice to her. She treats him poorly, he's good to her.

It's sick how we all can manipulate one another at times.

It's even stranger that I am tempted to apply her philosophy to my H.

Jen

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> On a few occasions over the years while we were dating, he had me bawling in tears, telling me he didn't know if he wanted to still be with me, b/c there were several things about me that he just didn't like, or that just weren't good enough. Stupid, young and naive Jen begged and pleaded in tears for him not to dump me, promised I'd be better, etc.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I did the same thing when we were dating. Don't know why. The only reason why I don't do it now is because I've seen that there ARE worse things than having to find a new BF.

Here's another "rule" I live by these days. Everyone has the right to gripe about something one time, after that, they have to either do something about it or find a way to deal with it. I remember my ex telling me "I never trusted you"--I told him "then why did you marry me you selfish b*stard?" If someone has a problem with who you are as a person, then they don't have the right to stick around and punish you for it. Just friggin' leave. Why they think they are doing you a favor by annointing you with their presence...it's just beyond me. Well, actually, it is not beyond me...it is a power trip. I know that now.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> She treats him poorly, he's good to her.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You really don't want to be in a relationship like this, where one or both people are playing a game of one-upmanship. It took a really long time for me to finally see that most of the discussions I had with my then H were not about reaching a mutual understanding and getting to know each other. It was about him getting information he could use against me at a later time as ammunition. It was about him using whatever circumstances that came along in our life as a way to gain control. It makes me sick to my stomach just thinking about it. I could really hate his guts for treating me that way, but then I think about his dad. That is the way his dad treated him and the way his dad treated everyone. He, my ex, was just as much a "victim" as I was, and that was the saddest part.

<small>[ April 30, 2003, 09:49 PM: Message edited by: TheStudent ]</small>

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after posting that last message, I thought that we really needed to get back to the topic of self-forgiveness. More than anything, what gave me the strength to stand up to people who want to tear me down is being able to forgive myself--and I mean really deep down feeling that way. It doesn't happen overnight. If your H can't find a way to treat you with respect, then you can't be around him.

Just so ya know...JL was one of the people who has helped me alot. He gets on my nerves sometimes and I'm sure I get on his--we have some differing opinions on women's "rights"--but he was one of the few who told me I was a good person and he told me that over and over. There are people here who are telling you that, and you know what? I actually got mad at people who would tell me that, like they were just saying that to make me feel better or were buttering me up so they could come back later and get their digs in when I was good and vulnerable. No amount of people telling me how good I was made a difference to me. I had to prove it to myself. I had to walk the walk...and walk it for a long time before I really convinced myself that yes, I AM a decent person and dammit, I deserve respect.

I remember going to volunteer the first few times and this little voice in my head saying "who are you kidding? If they knew you cheated on your H, they'd throw you right out of here. Who are you to think you can help anyone?" But, here were people who just wanted a hug. Kids who just wanted someone to read to them. A garden that needed watering or some weeds pulled so that others could enjoy it. Eventually, the anger set in. The anger that another human being could spend so much time telling me how worthless I was, and how sad it was that I believed him...and because I believed him for a time, maybe there was another person out there who wasn't getting a hug or another kid who didn't have someone to read to him. How dare someone do that to me!! So no, you have a whole lot more to offer the world than what your H says you do.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> It's even stranger that I am tempted to apply her philosophy to my H.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jen:
I don't think so-- we all teach people how to treat us ( Dr Phil ). What your friend is telling you is one way of viewing the dynamic of the R between lovers, not the root truth. Correctly assessing the situation is better, that is..examine WHY you allow and enable this treatment of you. Being more assertive & self-sufficient emotionally, will go a long way to "fix" this. Subconsciously you need validation from him for your self-esteem.

A good well-balanced mindset will bake life's cake, and external validation only adds the cherry to the top.

my $2 worth (inflation) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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Jen,

Inspite of TS's view of golf <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> , she is a good person and always has been. I have stayed out of this conversation because I think you and TS are communicating on a very good level.

BUT... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> I couldn't resist interjecting something. Your girl friends comment about "treating them mean and keeping them keen" sort of touched on something. She has been with this guy 9 years and the relationship hasn't progressed has it? Why?

My guess is that basically they don't really like much about each other. It is my opinion that you must come to a point in your life, that when you meet someone and decide you want to become friends and if appropriate lovers and married, that you realize that they aren't going to change. If you have issues with their treatment of you, leave them. If they have issues with you, they should do the same.

My point! Know yourself and what you want. If you meet someone who you don't feel the need to change, then this is someone to consider in your life. If they feel no need to change or critize (sp) you, then you may be a keeper. But, don't try to fit the round peg in the square hole.

TS's comments I think illustrate that very much. She is a good woman, and she is gifted. She has had to balance that REALITY with her view of herself. It seems it is happening as WIFFTY has noted. You need to do the same thing. Listen to what TS is telling you, listen very carefully.

I will now retire to the sidelines. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

God Bless,

JL


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