My apologies if this seems confused. I've just joined and am seeking advice. I am a 39 yr old female, been married for 15 years, two children aged 7 and 9. For the past 4 months, I have been separated - at my request - to sort through my feelings. My husband is a good friend, a loving father and a nice, all round guy. He wants us to get back together and although I have friendship feelings for him and we still have a 'good' relationship, I am so confused.
I don't know what's missing...perhaps its 'love'. I don't have intimacy feelings for him. We had a sexual relationship but I didn't want intimacy such as kissing or cuddling. Am I a selfish person? Perhaps I'm just a taker? I want to do the right thing for my children, for my husband and for me......but I just don't know how to take the steps or make the decisions necessary to sort this out. Everyone tells me I'm crazy to leave a nice guy. I'm riddled with guilt and confusion....am I simply thinking of myself to the exclusion of everyone else?? Please offer me some words of wisdom. How do I get through this?

Kelly - you have a guy most of us would want. But that is our statement. You evidently, confused if you really love this guy. The statement you made is so vague. We need more to help you. It seems to be that he give & gives to you, and you take. Have you ever thought that you need some professional counseling? Don't give up on a marriage that the man obviously loves you, and I feel you still love him. Go to counseling to help sort out your feelings. Divorce is hard on the kids. Read the many posts here. For one, my kids are having a hard time with the divorce, and the divorce is what my hsuband wanted. So he got it.

I do feel you are confused, and professional help is needed.

yes, words of wisdom:

1) Welcome to marriage builders, the members are generally here to improve our own marriages and to help others in the similar quest, as long as you are willing to look at yourself in a mirror without photoshop 8.0 editing. Read both the information here, and the posts here to get a sense of the board..

2) you are approaching perimenopause, and you won't be the first woman to being to notice unexplained emotional changes. to some people, the slowly changing hormone levels change your outlook on life. . . go get a complete medical checkup and tell your doctor what you have just written.

3) since you can't elaborate or "know" what you are missing, then IC, individual counseling is a great place to start. This site is great for specifics, but when you might be facing FOO (family of origin) issues that would leave you in an unexplained position, then the board is not as helpful as asking for specific advice for specific situations.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We had a sexual relationship but I didn't want intimacy such as kissing or cuddling. Am I a selfish person? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">from the limited information we have in your above post, how the hell are we supposed to figure out that question?? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

from my experience on here, (four years) and from my readings, unexplainable situations such as you are explaining, result from three possibilities in general. first is the change in hormone levels, the second is a pattern of learned dysfunctional experiences from your family which are repeated subconsciously, and the third one is a general mismatching of personality types, whereby the personality that was married is now not as attractive due to changing circumstances, mostly maturity. . . therefore, clicking on the link in my tag line might help you sort out some personality differences that you might not know you have. . . between you and the H, which would contribute to a lack of in love feeling, because of the differences in love languages, based upon personality types. . .

i would like to hear back what your response might be to these thoughts. . .

wiftty

Thankyou for your input. 'Faith4me'..you're right I do have feelings for my husband. He's been my best friend for 16 years. I still enjoy talking with him and being in his company. Wiftty, your advice got me to really thinking. You're right in that my outlook on life has changed. I come from a very loving, stable home life, with two parents who are inseparable after 45 years of marriage. I am goal oriented and knew from as far back as I can remember I had a plan. I wanted to teach, get married, have a family. So I went from school to uni, to my teaching career. I loved it! I moved to middle
management and extended my skills. During this time, I met my husband (also a teacher) and we eventually married after two years. We transferred around with my upwardly mobile career before deciding to settle and buy a house. We renovated, then we started a family. I took seven years leave and during that time, developed an interest in early childhood. So while our children were still young, I retrained in early childhood education and left my 10 year high school teaching behind me. I am now teaching at the same school as my children....Everything should be perfect! But, I feel like I'm choking. I've achieved my plan but now I feel lost...I don't know what else to do...I wanted to travel and home school our children but my husband didn't feel that was practical. I just feel like I'm treading water.
I did the personality test as you suggested. Results said "INFJ - introvert, intuitive, feeler, judger). I'm not a moody person but I know it must be hard for my husband to understand what is going on. I still don't really understand it myself.. and worse still...I don't know how to change it.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I've achieved my plan but now I feel lost...I don't know what else to do...</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ahhhhh, the makings of a mid life crises, MLC. achieving the plan around age 40, then what?

Period 1 Class:

Today you are having a pop quiz:

Please compare and contrast the two concepts of marriage, huying a house and having children versus creating a family.

you have one posting, complete your assignment in a word/text editor and then paste it here before hitting the Add Reply button

yes, i was married to a similar person.. . ESFJ, and a teacher from a teaching family.

teachers have a unique set of issues as compared and contrasted to "mainstream" folks. If you detect bitterness, no, i have done the analysis after having lived at a NE boarding school for almost 20 years. . . . and working in some respects.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I wanted to travel and home school our children but my husband didn't feel that was practical. I just feel like I'm treading water. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">also, very important. the sense of progress and accomplishment is LOST when you have hit a roadblock. accomplishments have been individually accomplished in your life, however, now your individuality (a politically correct term for CONTROL!) is now being constrained within the concept of marriage or family. .. there lies a personality issue and expectation that personality type research can help you understand. . .

so the question is, is it you? most definately. . . are you wrong? absolutely NOT!

OK, here are some serious words of wisdom:

the class assignment above was serious. . . do it.
be thoughtful, but do it. . .

your label of INFJ is still individually definable, however, what is your husband?? if you want to read the differences between the two of you, get the book the web site is hawking, and do some SIKOLOGIKAL studying to broaden your teaching experiences. . . teaching has several different parts: having mastered the material yourself. . . being a coach to analyze the students roadblocks and help them through. . and understanding the basics of how and why those roadblocks occur. AND then the more effective, long term way of neutralizing the issues for a less biased life going forward.

IF you like to read, i suggest two books that will take quite a bit of time to really read and understand.

The Road Less Travelled by M. Scott Peck, MD

If you meet the Buddha on the Road, KILL HIM by Sheldon Kopp.

both have very meaningful messages about life, both from completely different viewpoints. . . RLT is practical, IYMTBOTRKH uses classical literature to illustrate the how mankind and the human experience has not changed since greek mythology.

however, i would also like you to examine your past of possibly getting your own way, and independently achieving your goals, and how that relates to the concept of POJA, which i would also like you to research on here. After you research this concept, and do some post readings on here, how does that concept relate to the first writing assignment posted above. . .

ok, students, start typing, use spell checker, and be clear and concise. . .

GO! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

wiftty

<small>[ February 15, 2004, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

lets not worry about change at the moment. . .

there is no rush. . .

but there is a necessity to learn the basics of psychology here, to get a grasp of what you don't know with which you are struggling.

because once you gain a certain amount of psychological knowledge, problems and misunderstandings take a different light. . . one that your first question is, tell me about your past in two-three sentences after telling me your personality type.

then you will easily see how the other person operates, and then you will be able to deside how to approach the person or yourself. ..

wiftty

you have come to the right spot, and are asking the right questions, now you need to do the work, and after my years here, its made quite a difference in my life, all for the better. . . and i know the work assignments here will help you also. .. because i see that you are asking the right questions, and searching for knowledge, aka, your own truth, no one elses, your own truth. . .

Hi Wiftty! Thanks for your very thought provoking responses. Your comments made me smile - particularly the MLC...I'm very pleased that you are familiar with the "unique set of issues" teachers have. I feel your own experiences probably put you in good stead to better understand where I'm coming from.
Your comments in relation to progress and accomplishment are dead right. I thought about this carefully.....I do feel my 'individual' accomplishments are complete and for 15 years of marriage have been continuing to achieve 'individual' goals rather than 'family' goals. Therein lies a significant problem that I will have to address!
Your 'assignment' is also very thought provoking. I will give it considerable attention when I find a spare moment....Difficult sometimes what with working full-time, caring for my children, managing a household, etc, etc, etc. Can't guarantee a written response to your 'task' but can certainly guarantee some 'serious thinking time'.

I do enjoy reading and thank you for your book recommendations. Will see if I can track them at the local library. Will endeavour to find out more information on concept of POJA also. Will get back to you once I've had a chance to
follow up on all your recommendations.

Thanks for the solid advice! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm very pleased that you are familiar with the "unique set of issues" teachers have. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">just FYI, i do not look at their issues in a very favorable light, as teaching for me would only be at the graduate school level, where the individual is self motivated and challenging.

i tend to have a negative opinion of those in the teaching profession. . . . backed up with many good examples, not that there aren't any good teachers, its their life perspective i don't agree with for the most part. . . . although i used to in the beginning. . .

wiftty

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">it's their life perspective I don't agree with... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Boy! That's a pretty generalised comment! Sounds like you have some pretty strong opinions on this....I've definitely misunderstood your previous comments regarding teachers. Thought you might be in a position to offer positive support based on prior experience. I

I do appreciate your advice on which books to read though. Thanks anyway!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Thought you might be in a position to offer positive support based on prior experience. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">support, no, generally, support does not get you very far. . . kind of like sympathy. . . keeps you in the same position. . . .

if you have questions, ask them, and you will get answers. . . if you are confused, state the options and a discussion will ensue about that validity of the alternatives. . . .

support, that is for children. . . we are adults here, looking for solutions and progress . . . .

besides, the generalization was specifically meant as one. . . you didn't ask for any opinions or specifics, so i don't need to preach to you. . . however, if you want to debate issues from source emotions, then i can give you one or two. . . if you want sympathy because you believe teachers are special. . . then you know not to ask me. . .

wiftty

Fair enough Wifty! Point taken! I do want to be an adult, capable of making responsible decisions. Can cope with many other aspects of my life....seem to have major problems with relaitonships though.

Haven't been able to get a copy of books you recommended yet so am still flying blind in many respects.

Have researched POJA though. Have no doubt I've spent a good deal of energy being a 'taker' in this marriage - perhaps due to personality type..not sure...maybe just because I put my own agenda first.

I'm most definitely in a state of 'withdrawal'. Have been for many years now? Maybe a subconscious choice I've been making.

Problem is: Do I want to turn things around in this relationship for my sake or more importantly, for the sake of my children? ...or if I put my own needs first, does that still mean I'm being a 'taker'?

POJA article talks about not wanting to see our spouses unhappy. Whilst I believe that to be true...I don't like to think I've intentionally set out to cause such disruption to my family's lives, I'm not sure I want to even be with my husband. Therein lies the problem....Committment!

Is there some sort of guiding questionnaire that helps you to understand your emotions and make a decision ...yes, I'm going to commit to this totally OR no, stay being friends with ex-husband and move on with your life????


Need some of your thought-provoking guidance again!

Wiffty,

Had to log back on and tell you some exciting news!

Was looking at the local library for books you recommended...Had no luck but found another book which I have been studying seriously for the past couple of hours.

'The Life you were born to live' by Dan Millman

Briefly, book revolves around numerology and life energy, power of thinking tc, etc. Can really relate to what is being said.

For me, it raises issues of difficulty with commitment, patience and persistance and stability. Was almost relieved to be able to relate to this. Has helped me highlight positive things about myself (eg family and foundations are very satisfying on deep levels to me, can be immensely loyal and reliable) as well as pinpointing areas like has difficulty in persisting through 'rocky' periods, has difficulty in commitment to a relationship or location, etc.

Have changed my thinking somewhat and taken a different perspective. Do not think I am a 'taker' but due to a constant state of confusion and 'not knowing how to sort things out' have certainly not been balanced in my approach.

Am feeling very positive about 'getting my life' back together at present. Am still grasping - not too well yet - with conflict between finding a balance between what I consider to be freedom and independence and being disciplined enough to commit myself to another person.

Am interested in your comments and thoughts.

Kelly0:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> don't know what's missing...perhaps its 'love'. I don't have intimacy feelings for him. We had a sexual relationship but I didn't want intimacy such as kissing or cuddling </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">This makes perfect sense to me in line with what the rest of your post says: you wanted a marriage, you chose the best candidate. Now once you've had the M, the kids, the career moves, you have time to introspect and want something deeper for yourself. This is not selfish. What was selfish, was setting about it in the way you did, on perhaps false pretenses.(don't crucify me for saying this, note this is only a supposition) All your needs have been fulfilled up to now, so now your needs have changed.
Ask yourself a question: if you were out shopping for a man right now to fulfill your needs as a woman, how would your husband rank amongst all possible suitors? Is it possible you are missing out on romantic excitement, since that wasn't the goal when you originally set out looking for good husband material? So where would he rate. Is he a bit boring, since he isn't "new"?
You describe him as "... a good friend, a loving father and a nice, all round guy "
Is this at all bad?
Maybe you should start viewing him as a possible lover/suitor/boyfriend, and see him in a different light..
Maybe he should in on this excercise, so he can review what he does, and how he behaves to rekindle the flames of romance and desire??

I feel somehow as if you're not telling all...
If your relationship is that great, what has happened to cause the physical seperation from him? These kinds of problems are usually dealt with within the realms of the marriage, with the partner's co-operation, or counselling.
Have you met someone for whom you do have those feelings of deep romantic/sexual attraction for that you feel you should have, but don't have, for your husband?
Is this the source of your confusion?

muzohead

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do not think I am a 'taker' but due to a constant state of confusion and 'not knowing how to sort things out' have certainly not been balanced in my approach. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">needs further clarity. . .

and one book will not be enough to encompass the immmense possibilities of your situation. . .

wiftty

Muzohead, thanks for your response!

You're right, my needs have changed...Problem is, I'm having difficulty identifying them myself.

In answer to your question, if I was to go out shopping for a man right now, I would be looking for someone who wanted new adventures (eg travelling, learn new skills, do the unexpected), someone who wants to expand themselves and their horizons, someone who doesn't want to be static. I have tried to talk to my husband about my need to 'break the boredom and suffocation' I've felt for many years but it's difficult for him to understand because he's really happy with how things are.. the house in the suburbs, 2 kids and a dog, etc, etc.

I do not mean that to sound as a criticism because I acknowledge that this is where he's at right now. And that's great for him because he's found a place in his life where he's content.

The problem is, that's not where I want to be. Therein lies the conflict because our paths are taking different directions.

There's definitely no other person on the scene. Am certainly not interested or even looking. Want to get my own head together before I even consider entering into a relationship - be it new or old -again.

But you're right in saying that I haven't given all the information. I understand your confusion in saying that if my husband is "a great guy" then how come I left him. Well, there's always more to a situation. In this case, apart from the intimacy issue, there's the family issue.

Have a history of 'covert' conflict with his Mum and sisters. eg His (divorced) parents wanted a family photo...so I - and my brother-in-law - were asked to stand out. Things similar to this have happened throughout our marriage and this has left me feeling very unsupported or valued by my husband.

Have discussed this with him but he gets very defensive and says they only visit for a couple of weeks a year so I should just live with it.

Problem is, I don't want to do that anymore!

So, here I am, torn between reconciliation - primarily for the sake of my children - or whether to just move on with my life!!!

Wiftty,

State of confusion:- constantly analysing my behaviour, reading dozens of self-help manuals on saving marriages, self-development, being happy, etc, etc, etc. Trying to find ways to sort out issues that keep reoccuring and seem endless.

Usually, I'll do some research (eg how to 'improve' your marriage), find some books, do the quizes or watch the videos. I'll highlight specific pages that I think relate to our relationship difficulties and suggest he read them and thus promote discussion. (He doesn't enjoy reading, but is happy to read bits and pieces or my summaries.)

After the discussion, we agree on particular strategies and set off. This goes really well, sometimes for weeks or months, occasionally a bit longer and then we seem to arrive back to where we started.

I can see that this sounds like neither of us is making a genuine commitment....So does this mean we're both just lazy and need to try harder or that sub-consciously we don't want our relationship to progress?

These are the issues that cause me great confusion. It seems to be an endless cycle of the same problems. (ie my need for more adventure vs his need for stability through familiarity)

I've read so many books over the years that I've lost count. Perhaps I'm reading them but not understanding the meaning. Perhaps I'm just not committed to the relationship. I don't know!!!

What I do know is I'm tired of the worrying, the guilt and the continual self-analysis. Is this what being in a relationship is all about?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So does this mean we're both just lazy and need to try harder or that sub-consciously we don't want our relationship to progress? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">well, there are always more than one possibility to these questions. . .

however, i would answer, "No," and i would turn it around and say, probably more like comfortable, and different. OK, so you are more adventurous. . . so leave him, take the kids and go do something, or you leave go do something. . . by using this strategy, are you required to be separate or divorced??

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What I do know is I'm tired of the worrying, the guilt and the continual self-analysis. Is this what being in a relationship is all about? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">ok, so you don't want to change behaviors, but want to assign your H the fault for these behaviors and your choices, and its easier to get rid of him than it is to work to change these behaviors, is that about right?

hmmmm. . . if yes, proceed to the MLC selfish shelter, they will take care of you. . . <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

secondly, be in charge of a family vacation. . . get your H to agree that you will be the tour guide, and make a vacation worthwhile. . . if you are located in the states, and have some time being teachers, i have the ideal 2 week or 4 week vacation that will satify your desires and might even have him learn something new. . .

wiftty

<small>[ February 25, 2004, 07:33 PM: Message edited by: WhenIfindthetime ]</small>

ok, now i understand your conundrum . . took me awhile of pondering, because our situations were similar, i was like your H in some respects, and my now X is like you. . .

first, i want you to do some research on the different between implicit and explicit learning. and how those styles differ. . . then after reading that, and i have an excellent article for researching on that if you are lazy, and then i want you to think about how those two learnings styles relate to your concept of a marriage and a family. . .

then let hear what you have learned. . . because i am guessing from the limited information here, but i might have a clue. . .

wiftty

read the book, Passionate Marriage by Snarch, therapist. .

an excellent read,

wiftty

Hi Wiffty,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Are you required to separate or divorce?...(to do these things) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Probably not! Can probably do most things together...But how do I know I'll be doing the right thing by my husband or myself if we reconcile? If I can't even decide whether I 'love' this man, how can I make a committment to be with him?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...want to assign your husband the fault for these behaviours and your choices, and its easier to get rid of him then it is to work to change these behaviours... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I know this to be true! And I know that makes me sound like a truly selfish person. But I got to a point where I really didn't know what else to do. I'd read, viewed anything I could get my hands on to try and make things right. We had talked around and around so many times and my husband ..I think...was resigned to the fact that this is how marriage is...and he could live with that. We even went to a counsellor once, who after listening to us for about an 1 1/2 stated she felt it would be better for both of us to separate. At the time, we left her room shocked because we that wasn't the advice we expected. Then, we discussed it, and continued to struggle together for two more years. But I got to the point where I couldn't do it anymore so I asked for a separation.

I am truly interested in trying to change my behaviours so that I can be a 'better person'...not just because of a possible reconciliation...but for me....Now, I know you're probably going to say.."There she goes again, thinking of herself"..but I don't see how I can be a committeed partner in any relationship unless I better manage HOW to be in a relationship. Do I need to be in a relationship to do this or can I just work through it by myself?

To be totally honest, I have really enjoyed my independence again for the past few months. Again, I know this sounds selfish but I booked a holiday with my girls in a place they'd never been, I took them on an aeroplane and am doing things I've always wanted to do (eg go to the cinema, see a play) but haven't done because I've always been conscious of my husband's views on 'wasting money'.

I know that sounds like self-indulgence and I am certainly conscious of my monetary committments but goodness it feels great to be doing something different in my life. It brings me a greal deal of pleasure and fills a void.


Anyway, am off to research 'implicit and explicit teaching' as you suggested and track down the recommended book.

If your relationship was similar to mine, how come you are now divorced? Does this mean it wasn't possible to work it out?

One minute I feel like I want to reconcile because I'm feeling hopeful, then a day or two later I'm back to thinking "how can this possibly work?". I'm really getting to the point where I just need to make a decision and then live with it.