First, I'm new here; greetings to all. My name is Ric, a 50 yr old male going on 30. My wife of 15 yrs is 36. Some background:

My marriage started getting into trouble about a year after our only child was born eight yrs ago. It slowly but steadily got worse: focused solely on the child, failing to meet each other's needs, lose of intimacy, and all the typical male mistakes of being controlling, and critical. We don’t have any big yelling matches, no physical abuse, no drug problems, no jealously or infidelity. We’ve always had trust. Whew!!! Thank God for those blessings.

The wifey said six yrs ago that "something needs to be done". I ignored. Four yrs ago she said, "No, really, something has to be done." Again I ignored. Two yrs ago she said, "Do something or I might leave". I started doing everything I knew how without outside help. 10 days ago wife say's "That's it, you've changed some but not nearly enough, you’re still very controlling and critical, I'm gone"

Well, I hit the books and she didn’t leave telling me she would reassess in 90 days. I'm very intelligent and capable. I’ve always accomplished everything I set my mind too. Marriage Builders and McDonald's e-Books opened my eyes and turned everything around for me and the both of us. We’ve made amazing progress. Granted, I think we have it easy, no infidelity, drugs, physical abuse, just the "Emotional needs, Controlling and Critical things" which are tough enough to tackle.

However, when 10 days ago the wife said she wanted a divorce, she said she no longer loved me and didn't know if she would ever again love me. Now, although we're making astoundingly good progress, she says so herself with great smiles, hugs, and enthusiasm, she nevertheless will not utter the words "I Love You". Also, understandably, my wife has a problem bringing intimacy back to a good comfort level for herself. But strangely, she enjoys our infrequent sex life. At her initiation we had a wonderful sexual encounter last night. But she did not utter the three great words. I try not to pressure her to say “I Love You”, other than my telling her I love her (Trying hard not to say it to frequently).

So, I was thinking (Oops! I suggested and we discussed), maybe a weekend retreat to some sort of sexual/intimacy counseling thing would help her and us along. Does anyone know of a 3 or 4 day seminar/retreat that works on couples intimacy/sexual issues ??

Finally, not that I think this is important for me to know but, given these facts, would anyone care to speculate why my wife will not utter the words, "I Love You" ? Is she holding back to be sure of herself ? Is she keeping the pressure on me to change my ways ? Or, (Gasp!) is she waiting for some sort of magical schoolgirl infatuation to strike her down with youthful romanticism ? Or, simply all of the above ?

Any help or other comments are greatly appreciated. No, they’re REALLY VERY MUCH GREATLY APPRECIATED !

<small>[ February 15, 2004, 08:32 PM: Message edited by: RicVH ]</small>

RicVH,


--The wifey said six yrs ago that "something needs to be done". I ignored. Four yrs ago she said, "No, really, something has to be done." Again I ignored. Two yrs ago she said, "Do something or I might leave". I started doing everything I knew how without outside help. 10 days ago wife say's "That's it, you've changed some but not nearly enough, you’re still very controlling and critical, I'm gone"

TR--Why did wait SIX years to start making changing?? Didn't you think she was serious??
this definately show's a lack of respect for your wife--

--Well, I hit the books and she didn’t leave telling me she would reassess in 90 days.

TR--So what after you've shown her for 90 day's that your capable of changing--she's going to come back to you--and your going to go back to the way things were??

--I'm very intelligent and capable. I’ve always accomplished everything I set my mind too. . We’ve made amazing progress.

TR--It seem's like you accomplished what ever you wanted that was important to you--and how have you made amazing progress?? And are those your words or your wife's words?? Does she think you've made AMAZING progress??

In All honesty--I doubt it--if she was on the same wave length (for lack of a better term) she would be saying She loves you--


--Also, understandably, my wife has a problem bringing intimacy back to a good comfort level for herself.

TR--Apparently with good reason--she is afraid to trust the changes--how can you assure her these changes are LASTING??? How can she trust that you will not go back to the same self-centered man?

as far as a weekend seminar--This one is really good--

http://www.familylife.com/conferences/marriage.asp


They also have some other's---

http://www.familylife.com/conferences/faq.asp

Rekindling the Romance™ focuses specifically on reclaiming the passionate love relationship that has been obscured by everyday living.

Rick
Ignore nearly everything ThornedRose has to say. He/She is bitter, convicting, and willing to judge you to death. Read their other posts and all you see is pain, discouragement, and hate.

To me, you've woken up and see that your W is precious. Hooray!!! It will take a long time for W to come around because it took a long time to create the space and deep pain that has come between you. However, if you really have made changes to yourself...she will come around. But it will take time, certainly more than 90 days. And while there aren't any indications of an affair, a lot of the affair literature here says it will take more like 6-12 months for women to trust/love their H as deeply again. Yeah it is a long time, but it can be done but not in a week. Read stuff on this site to examine your behavior with.

Keep working on yourself, loving her, nurturing her, cherishing her. You will likely more about your M during this period than ever before. Keep up the good work and don't get hung up on the I love you's for a while, the fact that she is still around speaks to her love, dedication, and faithfulness to you and your M.

Best wishes.

RicVH:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Finally, not that I think this is important for me to know but, given these facts, would anyone care to speculate why my wife will not utter the words, "I Love You" ? Is she holding back to be sure of herself ? Is she keeping the pressure on me to change my ways ? Or, (Gasp!) is she waiting for some sort of magical schoolgirl infatuation to strike her down with youthful romanticism ? Or, simply all of the above ?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">O-o-oH Dear! Did you read this after you posted, old chap? That last little bit about "magical schoolgirl infatuation.." <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />
Do you know NOTHING about women? Not that I'm an expert ('fraid not, who is?)..but this borders on patronising disrespect. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />
IMHO, and with my limited knowledge, I'd say your W is behaving consistently. Do not expect any magic formula to winning your W's love and respect back. This will happen over time. Much damage has been done up to now, and you need to show by love(in action) and by consistency over time, that she can trust herself to you, and therefore give herself to you completely. We men (yes, I'm probably the greatest culprit) are such FOOLS in this department. I know at least 3 men close to me that are in danger of losing their spouses because of this kind of attitude.
Listen to ThornedRose's advice, take your scolding like a man, and do what has to be done.

RidingTheRollerCoaster:
I disagree with your comments on ThornedRose's post..., and I'm judging this one on merit, I have no opinion on other posts, as I'm not familiar with them.
I think that RicVH needs a bit of tackling, and a wake-up! 6 YEARS!!
This having been said, he's to be commended on taking this course of action, and he's still in with a good chance of redemption. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don not think this should be a club of mutual back-slapping, but instead of saying the hard things that need to be said sometimes, to be of real help.
RicVH, I hope you take it in the spirit intended, : one of helpfulness, with the benefit of experience.
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />
Good luck
muzo

ThX to all of you, I respect your comments.

THRORNEDROSE----

-Why 6 yrs. ?-
Well, that's irrelevent. And that's how my wife feels. We're not looking back, we're looking forward. Do I berate myself for 6 yrs of ignorance ? You bet I do, but I'm moving on.

-after 90 days...you go back to the way things were??-

No...NO NO NO NO NO....I now know the whys, the how comes, the solutions. I'm an Engineer who always succeeds by seeing the truth, the proof, and the solutions. I can then act on them faithfully and sincerely. I will with this too.

-accomplished what ever you wanted that was important to you--

Yes...I'm the one who was ignorant. I have to be working on me and thereby my marriage.

-how have you made amazing progress??-

First I admitted that I was wrong, all wrong, 100%. And I mean every word of it. I'm the one at fault for everything. Every bit of it, and I'm going to do something about it right now.

I stopped: controlling, criticizing, arguing, defending myself, etc..
I started: defending her pride, agreeing, being happy, showing appreciation, being affectionate, seeing her way, showing geuine interest, taking responibility, etc...

-And are those your words or your wife's words??-
Mine and her's too. She's amazed and very happy at my transformation. Understand, my wife knows me well, she knows that if I set my mind to it, I will do it, do it sincerely, and not look back.

-Does she think you've made AMAZING progress??-
Yes.

-she is afraid to trust the changes--how can you assure her these changes are LASTING??? How can she trust that you will not go back to the same self-centered man?-
By simply not going back to the way I was. She told me last night that she was smiling with one eye and keeping the other eye peeled for a lasting change. She said she was confident it would be lasting but that time would be the measure to convience her comfortably. I told her she was being very smart, and I respected that.

RIDINGTHEROLLERCOASTER -----

Thank you.

MUZOHEAD-----

I understand. Sure, I need the pats on the back, but I also need to be slapped around too.

Thank all of you for every word. I will gain to be a far far better man and husband. I will gain back my wife's love and her happiness. That is my goal.

Ridingtherollercoaster,


Ignore nearly everything ThornedRose has to say. He/She is bitter, convicting, and willing to judge you to death. Read their other posts and all you see is pain, discouragement, and hate.

TR--With all due respect--you give me WAY to much credit--as I do not have the ability to convict your heart--only God has that ability--so any conviction you feel--Take it to Him--

--Do I berate myself for 6 yrs of ignorance ? You bet I do, but I'm moving on.

TR--Don't berate yourself--for thing's you didn't understand--the best you can do is take responsibility for your lack of understanding--and take the time to learn how to communicate more effectively--and impliment that new information into your relationship--

--And I'm going to do something about it right now.

TR--That's good--

--Mine and her's too. She's amazed and very happy at my transformation. Understand, my wife knows me well, she knows that if I set my mind to it, I will do it, do it sincerely, and not look back.

TR--Good--

--She told me last night that she was smiling with one eye and keeping the other eye peeled for a lasting change. She said she was confident it would be lasting but that time would be the measure to convience her comfortably. I told her she was being very smart, and I respected that.

TR--So she is being cautious--and wanting to make sure it's not just a ploy to get her back--

I'm glad you acknowledged she was being smart in doing that--I'm sure that made all kinds of love bank desposits--

RicVH
Learn from this...learn how to be a great man and husband. Let God, not these two knuckleheads, discipline you and instruct you about who you should be and how to treat your W. Ask God's forgiveness, accept it, and move on. Any other guilt and shame is not from God. You don't have to take a tongue lashing from these guys. As an apparent over achiever, you've probably been self-flaggelating for the past 90 days or more. Seek the freedom, peace, and love only God can give you.

Be patient, your wife will come around. But learn from this so that your M will only be richer in the future.

Best wishes

TR...get a life

<small>[ February 16, 2004, 03:02 PM: Message edited by: Ridingtherollercoaster ]</small>

Rollercoaster....Thanks again. I don't think Thorny is being too hard on me. I understand what they're trying say.

As for my faith, I was raised in the 'Church of Christ’; my wife is 'Catholic' from a strong Catholic family. Our child goes to Catholic school. I'm active with the school in a big way.

Now, I've studied Catholicism and have for years intended to join. I know people will say, of course you decide to join now that there's a big upheaval in your life but, what better time is there ?

So, I've meet for hours with the Priest and am working through the necessary steps to becoming a Catholic. I hope to have that process completed in maybe 3 more months.

My wife knows I've sought out the advice and counsel of the priest and she is proud I have done so. But I haven't told her of the priest and I working on my conversion. I'm hoping it will be a nice surprise when I tell her to come to church with me for the event.

RicVH,

Like you, I am a new member who is looking for sensible and supportive advice. I am currently separated but am considering reconciling with my husband....It's almost like..I want to reconile but don't know how to go about it.
I read your post with interest because I have some 'things' in common with you and with your wife. Firstly, my marriage of 15 years sounds similar to yours in that there is no history of abuse, etc, etc. Unfortunately, there has been a loss of intimacy and meeting each others needs.
I brought this to the attention of my about 7 years ago and started reading as many 'self-help marriage' books as I could get my hands on. We discussed issues raised in the books and for a while, we'd travel along 'nicely' again until the wheels would start to fall off because I would start feeling things were 'not quite right'. We even went to a marriage counseller who, after just one session of listening to us, said she felt we should separate. That was 3 years ago, and we have ambled along regardless until about 5 months ago when I felt so much despair and confusion, and decided a separation would give us time to reflect.
I am in a similar situation to your wife because I find I've lost the intimacy with my husband and this has prevented me ...for a very long time..from saying "I love you" or from kissing him. I still enjoy sex but without the intimacy that should be there.
My advice is to please be patient. I can't really help you with why your wife might be feeling this way...I don't even know why my behaviour is like this. It's not that I don't have strong feelings of friendship, trust and respect for my husband. Perhaps your wife feels the same. I don't feel like I'm waiting for some romantic notion like in a novel. It's more like a nagging feeling of 'if I commit totally to my partner' is everything going to be alright.
Now, I know that that's impossible to predict. Yet, knowing that, it still does not help me from feeling it.
Like you, I have been very goal oriented and accomplished things in my life. However, another member just recently brought my attention to the fact that the things I've accomplished are all 'individual' things. For me, this was an eye opener because I guess I have been continuing to strive for my own goals rather than developing shared goals.
I'm not sure whether my ramblings will be of any help to you. Just felt I could emphathise with both of you - in different ways - because of your circumstances. Best wishes!

KellyO....Thanks for sharing your situation with me. I appreciate it very much.

I'll tell you what I've done. First of all I started reading "Stop Your Divorce" by Homer McDonald, and I followed his strategies to the letter. I did just as he said with two exceptions that I felt were tailoring the stategies to my own situation. 1.) I didn't proceed to date other women. 2.) I did start telling my wife 'I love You', in just very brief ways, like when going out the door in the morning or when kissing her good night.

Simultaneously I started reading "Marriage Builders". This seem to support what I was doing and simply offered me more reading material along the same lines. As I've said, I can consume material at an alarming rate so the extra was not a labor to me.

Additionally, I've been printing out a hardcopy of the material I read and putting them in a 3-ring binder which my wife then takes to work. I started out by giving her an overview of McDonalds work. I never give her much more than a few pages a day. After a few days I started giving her pages from "Marriage Builders" and we were soon taking the Questionairs. We are now practicing the policies of marriage builders.

Anyway, that's what we've done. But I emphasize that I, and now my wife, are following McDonalds strategies to the letter. It was a bit awkward at first but after the first week we began to get comfortable with it, Now after two weeks it's down right normal. I think it may have saved my marriage, and I know it changed me in a big way forever.

As for intamacy....I'm just being very effectionate with my wife as often as I can; everything from big hugs in the morning to simply putting a hand on her shoulder. We hug maybe a dozen times a day now. We've held each other while watching a movie and while our daughter was talking to us. I go into her room at night, lay down, and hold her until she's just about asleep. It seems to be working.

Good luck KellyO.....

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">2.) I did start telling my wife 'I love You', in just very brief ways, like when going out the door in the morning or when kissing her good night </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Make sure you show her by your actions also. Women are wired differently than men, they don't necessarily feel the same thing when you tell them that.

You could do the most seemingly small thing like Open the door, compliment her and that would go 1000 miles with her.

A good thing I heard a long time ago was that telling someone you Love them means different things to different people.

Your idea of "Love" and my idea may mean different things to the both of us. For me, it may mean I cherish you, I value you, I trust you etc. So when someone tells me they Love me, that is what I think they are trying to convey to me.

So at this time, maybe your wife doesn't feel comfortable saying it or hearing it. Her idea of "Love" may be a bit tarnished from the years of not living up to what she thought Love was?

Lastly, Love is a conscious decision we make.

Good luck and glad to see you trying to fix things up!

No one will harass you because you turn to the Creator. Sometimes, the Creator uses upheaval and discomfort to bring you to him. The Creator is always bringing something good out of the bad, and thus forever stymieing and frustrating the Fallen Angel.

Good for you.


Oh, as for school-girl infatuation... In time, that may come back. At least a little bit. It should never entirely go away. And that's what the MB process is all about. Protecting and growing romantic love.

Try the divorce busting 180 also.

You gotta also give your w some breathing room and do the 180.

I read the McDonald book. It was ok. Only reaction, real reaction I got that was positive was when I did the 180 followed by plan B.

Your wife needs a good plan A now. Commit to that. But also incorporate the db 180. I think it's great way to not stifle the one you're trying to woo back.

Incidentally, I am dating and have done just one or two of the 180 techniques on one of the frogs I really like...snapped back like a charm. There's got to be mystery along with the romance for that schoolgirl butterflies to return ok? Just ask me. I am dating now and awaiting the return of those darn butterflies. So far they must still be in Capistrano. They sure aren't in GA.

Justpeachy....!!!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> "Try the divorce busting 180....
do the 180.....
followed by plan B.
Your wife needs a good plan A now.
also incorporate the db 180." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">What's a 180 ???
What's plan A ???
What's plan B ???
Where do I find these???
What do they mean ???

<small>[ February 18, 2004, 05:33 PM: Message edited by: RicVH ]</small>

Read around this website--do a search on Plan A and Plan B--

a 180 is a complete turn around

Plan is doing just what your doing--making your wife feel good and doing things that please her--

Plan B--is when those things don't work and she's in an affair--(which you've said she's not) it's removing yourself from the situation---