This is probably an exercise in futility, but whatever, call me a dysfunctional optimist, proably true. You folks...the few who don't seem able to see through the humongous holes in these "reports" about that scourge of mankind, the antiChrist, the heir to Hitler et al, more commonly know as faith4mes exhusband....need a reality check, if you expect to be of any use to faith4me in her recovery. This may come as a shock, but people can and do misrepresent their lives, sometimes maliciously, sometimes dysfunctionally....you really should expend more effort ascertaining the facts.

In faith's defense, she did title this thread a vent, apparently invoking vent means one should be a little bit more suspicious of the actual facts. However, holding faith's toes to the fire, she has let the thread take on the semblance of "fact" re her circumstances. In any event, I pretty much don't lose any sleep over what some annonymous folks (without a clue) on a message board might think about me....but I am concerned about the damage being done to faith as you egg her on in pursuit of her victim status...instead of holding her accountable, and helping her realize what this strategy does to herself.

Very little that she posts is accurate, she doesn't lie too much, but she seriously distorts the facts frequently, and regularly omits key information....she also rarely posts her contributions to our various altercations. Her goal is to be a victim, that has always been her strategy, in the 31 years I have known her she has not budged from that coping mechanism....any, and I mean any, attempt in the slightest degree to hold her accountable for her behavior is met with intense aggression, anger, and no holds barred conflict. For whatever reason, way back in her youth, she has learned she needs to defend her well-being vigorously, that she can trust no one, that she must be right at all cost, or somehow she will perish. Even a cursory review of her volumne of posts makes that clear, in her own hand....many of you recognized this long ago, made efforts, and eventually gave it up as a lost cause, as have I.....but the few of you still sucked in to her drama are simply delaying her growth, and healing. I really don't expect to change anyones mind, you all have your own self-serving agendas, and use whatever is at hand to act out....but you might want to rethink what you are doing. At the very least, intellectual responsibility should require you to get your facts straight.

I am not going to revisit every single misrepresentation posted in the last 2 years, made not only here, but to everyone she comes in contact with....the only people I am really concerned about at all are my kids, they lived our marriage, and know the truth, and the misrepresentations, they also experience much of the same conflict with their mother that I do. If I was even 1/2 the man my exw claims I am, my kids would have nothing to do with me....yet she is the one with all the problems with the kids...that ought to make you wonder. She can repair these relationships, including the one with me, if she wants, but so far she has not wanted to as evinced by her actions. You people are not helping at all.

For example, the recent so-called identify theft. In my capacity as the designated family phone person....an account I altered many times over our marriage as needed, but had my wifes name and ssan number on it cause it was originally opened in her name....I added a line for my daughter at the barn (on her grandmas property) where she was to keep her horses, including a pregnant one. My wife knew all about this. The phone company completely screwed up the installation, and eventually I cancelled the whole thing, the phone company agreeing to zero this issue...and they did. However, somewhere along the line the phone bureaucracy placed this back on our bill, and I have been fighting it ever since...we do not owe them anything, nor was the bill ever $800, it was about $400. My exw in her ongoing efforts to demonize me(and be a victim) decided to tell the phone company she never ordered this phone, so they asked if it was fraud, she said yes...and has proceeded to fill out papers accusing me of a felony....did I come unglued, you bet I did, I am outraged at her "solution" to a potential credit issue. Is she aware of the facts, yes she is, she simply states she has to do what she has to do to protect her credit...and people wonder why I did not want to be married anymore...this kind of behavior defined out marriage....I was always the enemy, had to be defended against....but what I was, is the stand-in for her mother who psychologically abused her and cannot be made to be accountable. It took me years to figure out why I was always wrong, and had to be punished, or diminished. But I digress, our problems run deep, are extemely complicated, and are exacerbated by very different temperaments. We bring out the worst in each other, feed each others weaknesses, hurts, and fears...and need help in crafting a healthy relationship, not help in destroying what little goodwill is left on either of our parts.

The phone bill is a straitforward credit dispute, nothing more, and turning it into a criminal issue would be a disaster for us both. She would eventually be potentially held civilly, if not criminally for filing a false report...and I would be defending myself against bogus charges, in tne meantime the phone company would be off the hook proving these billings as the focus shifted to criminal issue. I have explained this all to her, to no avail...so yep, that does scare me, and for good reason....and it makes me very angry too...so I did say a few intemperate things, but ya know what, so does she...only you never hear what she says.

Re the alimony etc. She implies I refused to pay her, I begged her to take the money, she would not do so because she didn't think she should due to the screwed up court system we have, and how they handle this... finally she was convinced it was ok to take it, and she has been paid in full.

re coming to the house, we made an agreement, she could stay in the house, and I would come and go for business and children reasons....or we would buy her a house and she could move, and I stay with the kids.... her choice...she chose to stay. I am there very little, and many times I am fixing or helping her with something, but you don't hear about that.....nor do you hear about the phone calls to me to pick-up some milk or something and bring it by. I understand this is an emotional issue for us both, but I am not her property, and do not agree she is in charge of this completely... It will sort itself out in due time. The house is quite large, no one is tripping over another, I don't push her space, leave her alone....nor do I come at bad hours, etc.

She also does not mention things I do, such as buying a few days ago the replacement part for her laser printer....or changing the oil in her van at her request, or helping her with my time (and $400) to buy her car....or having no objection to her coming to dinner at mongolian barbecue and paying for her dinner sunday...and the list goes on and on and on....

re credit cards, I have never used her card for anything but her stuff, and I paid ALL her credit card bills before the divorce....we sure didn't pay mine. Nor has she told you she charges stuff to my card without my permission or knowledge, which so far I have paid...and I could go on and on and on with financial details as well, she gets money out of me every way she can....I pay for all kinds of stuff I have no obligation to pay for...

She claims I call her a FB, yes I have, it is childish, but the only way I guess I have of reacting to her outrageous behavior at times....you people have no idea how vicious she can be be, she finds your vulnerable spots and just pounds and pounds and pounds on them....Don't take my word for it, ask our kids, she has the same problems with them....nor does she mention she has called a lot of names as well. I think she intentionally does this, tries to provoke an intemperate response, then she runs around telling everyone how mean me, or whatever kid she is fighting with, is to her. In any event the name calling is rare, is only in the midst of an extreme conflict, and I usally apologize, she never does.

I could go on, but it would be more of the same. I do not mistreat her, she has done well in the divorce, and is lucky to have me for an exH. It is unfortunate we cannot get along, we fight as much divorced as we did married, and it ain't all me. I was a responsible, caring, devoted husband and father...and I could be an asset as a an exh, but that apparently is not to be. Call me polyanna, I thought if we were not in each others face we could get along a lot better, but such is not to be....she wants total seperation, and I now agree, and am working toward that goal...I really don't understand why, but have accepted such is the case, just another way we differ..but I think that has to do with temperament...to me it is the reality that makes sense, and having a good relationship with the parent of your children, and someone you spend 30 years with seems to make sense, being friends, helpful, nurturing....but I guess for others it does not, all or nothing...but what confuses me, if you can't even get along divorced, how in the world do you get along married? So I suppose my polyanna attitude is just one more way we differ, and is a source of irritation and displeasure to her....I get it now, she wants nothing to do with me, and I will oblige her just as fast as I can...but I do find all her "contacts" confusing, if that is what she wants.

She is not a victim...she was and is a full partner in our failed marriage, and our conflictual ex-relationship....mostly I don't really understand her at all, nor do I think she understand me....I suppose that is why we are divorced, but it doesn't mean we have to fight. As for love, I don't really know what it is probably. I was a rescuer, she was needy, a common scenario, I am sure we care about each other, and whatever kind of love that is....but we never had a functional relationship, and that is sad for us both...but I don't think we ever could, the co-dependentcy was way too strong... I am working on not being a rescuer....she needs to stop being needy, a victim...but you folks keep help her stay stuck, you aren't doing her any favors.

I don't, won't have any more to say, there is no reason or point....but you might keep in mind when you only hear one side of the story, the bias could completely "fog" the reality, be careful of your assumptions, and your advice, you may do more harm than good.....and work real hard at getting the complete facts, ask lots of questions, before your kneejerk reactions.

Hi SnL,

Seems you two (Thinker and yourself) are still doing the same dance you were doing before you were divorced. I don't even see attempts at baby steps towards forgiveness.

The members on this board are solely here to do one of two things, receive or give support. I dont know how to support either of you, SnL, because there is still so much blame being thrown around by both of you. That, and he said, she said drival. It's borderline soap opera. I'm sorry, and don't mean to offend, but it is.

I'm not invalidating either of your hurt or anguish. It's painfully obvious you both still hurt a great deal. I'm simply offering up the idea that you two should explore some "real life" individual professional counseling.

Don't you want to really heal from all this and find some inner peace?

Respectfully and with concern,
Jo

<small>[ February 21, 2004, 06:29 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

I think it's become very obvious that you should take care of your obligations and nothing more and nothing less. It's obvious that you will never achieve the caring ex relationship you'd like, you'll never be civil with each other and the bitterness will never die.

Your kids are pretty much adults now and they know where to find you if they need you and they can pick up the phone themselves and call you. Stop putting yourself in the line of fire.

I do believe pretty much everything posted. The incosistencies are too great in the ex-w's postings and the victim status comes through loud and clear.

Remove yourself completely from the situation and allow you and she to live apart. Don't worry about the kids, they're big boys and girls now and will make sure that you know what's going on and if any help is needed.

Sucks, but what can you do?

so, what is the truth on the torn rotator cuff and the unpaid medical bills?

If you are SNL, it seems perfectly likely that you would be back. Agressors banned from a place do seem to like to go back.

You know, there are two sides of every story.

I'd love to know about the physical injuries. And I'd like to know why you can't respect her wishes and stay away from her residence as she has requested. Go pick up the children and take them to your place. But, for heaven's sake, stay out of her home.

F4MeX, I am too tired right now to read your post in its entirity, but my heart truly goes out to both you and your ex-wife.

My ex-husband and I loved each other very much at one time. He wanted to be a good, loving husband and I wanted to be a good wife, but we both hurt each other in various ways... not intentionally, but foolishly. Slowly, we became enemies and instead of being together, we were against each other... blaming, accusing, and being suspicious towards each other.

Love became hatred and trust turned to fear. But as I sought God to help me, He gave me the strength to endure, to forgive, to accept. I no longer felt a need to defend myself, I had no desire to blame my husband, and I only wanted to do right in the sight of the Lord... even if it cost me. I felt peace and although I still grieved very deeply through a divorce I did not want, I knew that if I had continued to hate, blame, defend, etc... that it would have eaten me alive and I would be a very bitter, hard woman right now.

Well, I say all this to share with you that I know the pain of divorce. My situation is different than yours, but I know how a once-loving couple... marriage partners... can become worst enemies. It is heartbreaking and can be a thief of peace, joy, and faith.

I have no specific answers for either you or your wife. I am not going to point a finger at either of you, blame neither of you, defend neither of you. What good would it do? None. I am not your judge and I have not walked in your shoes. I have not been married to you or to your wife. I simply cannot know both "sides" or know from anonymous posts, what is true, what is exaggerated, what is assumed but not true. No one can really truly know except the Lord, who knows all things. Even between you and your ex-wife... you might have perceived each other's actions differently... one person seeing it as yelling, the only as only a loud voice. Things like that.

You are both human and sinners. You have both done wrong in your lives, just as I have. And you are both dearly loved by God. He, too, grieves over the pain you both have felt.

I hope and pray that the Lord heals you both. That He brings peace between the two of you... forgiveness and reconciliation. Perhaps not that your marriage is reconciled, but that you are reconciled as people... that you are able to have peace between the two of you.

I pray that any wrongdoings by either of you are confessed and repented of... that you both seek the Lord with humility and repentence... confessing your own individual sins and forgiving each others. You have to let go of the blaming of each other and the defending of yourselves.

Be right with the Lord and then, if you are accused of something you are innocent of, you will have peace and not need to defend yourself. If there are things in the past that you need to make right with your ex-wife (or anyone), you likely will not have peace until you do make these right. And the same goes for your ex-wife. As far as it is up to you, pursue peace and do what is necessary to have it (seek forgiveness, etc).

God favors neither of you and He holds you both acccountable for your actions and thoughts. He knows the depths of your hearts and what lies within. If there is deception or falsehoods in either of your hearts/words/behaviors, He will not allow peace until these are confessed and dealt with. I'm not God and I am not going to try to figure out who is right, wrong, lying, not lying, etc.

I don't believe that there are ever two completely "innocent" people in a marriage/divorce. Both did wrong things. Both are human. In any of my words to F4Me, I have never condemned you and I will not condemn her in my words to you. And I agree that choosing "sides," will benefit neither of you.

Far be it from me to stand as the judge of either of you when I, myself, am a sinner just like both of you.

I am, again, truly sorry for the pain of your divorce and pray that the Lord heals you both and that you find in Him the peace you both need.

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 03:08 AM: Message edited by: LoveMyEx ]</small>

It is remarkable how one who accuses someone of constantly applying for "victim status", starts a post with </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> This is probably an exercise in futility, but whatever,.... </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...why the "poor, pitiful me" routine?

I read your post through with interest and understanding, and feel much like LoveMyEx . You're obviously intelligent and eloquent, and explain very well the dynamics of your relationship with your ex.
Why then this attempt to "get at" her? The obvious intention is to get fellow MBer's to be harder on her, and consequently for her to "wake up" and heal from victim status, and move on. On the surface this is "noble", but how helpful are you being?

Do you realise that all your actions up to now have served the opposite purpose?
The more you ignore her requests (however unreasonable they may be to you), continue to have contact with her (frequent visits and logistical support), the more she has reason and ammunition to feed the so-called "victim" in her. If your intention is to see her grow as a person and heal from emotional damage, you'd do better to offer her the respect she deserves as someone obviously trying to get to grips with establishing control in her own life. She may not be as eqipped as you are as yet, but the "rescuer" in you prevents her from getting there.
She depends on you, and at the same time resents you for it. You should try to get this. In this kind of scenario it doesn't matter who the WS was. The fact that YOU were the WS, only makes this whole situation worse. The humiliation of having to be dependant on you for ANYTHING is doubly unbearable to her.

We here at MB can only respond to posts on the basis of what we read,(which is the same courtesy I'm affording you now) and with the benefit of some experience, attempt to support each other, and provide a little comfort and advice.
YOU, on the other hand, are in a position to be of real help, should you behave intelligently and responsibly. If you truly believe she is less equipped to deal adequately with a confrontational situation, you should back down and be the smaller person, or if your temperament cannot handle this, you should avoid such potentially volatile situations.

I have had a similar relationship with my ex, and she sees each interaction as an opportunity to score a "victory" over me. I have learnt to let it slide, since opposition, or reason, is futile. She never apologises, since she sees it as capitulation, but will instead be "ultra nice" to me, in the period following her being totally unreasonable.

Just something else, if you desire a favourable reception to what you have to say, saying this doesn't help:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">you all have your own self-serving agendas, and use whatever is at hand to act out....</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...it's bound to put some people's backs up, don't you think?

Resilient wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm not invalidating either of your hurt or anguish. It's painfully obvious you both still hurt a great deal. I'm simply offering up the idea that you two should explore some "real life" individual professional counseling.

Don't you want to really heal from all this and find some inner peace?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">..Ditto

muzohead

I broke my silence for one reason only, some posters are going beyond "support" and validateing a victim mentality, this is very unhealpful to my exw, and her relationships with myself, and her children. IMO this is seriously impedeing her recovery, and I hope this information encourages people to think more before giving bad advice. Emotionally/psychologically we had an extremely difficult marriage, and we coped by avoiding each other as much as possible.....My exw is an extremely responsible person when task oriented, she took excellent care of the kids, was a great help in the business, and ran the houselhold very well...she is also a wonderful/dependable caregiver, and relaible friend to her circle....what she has is serious self-esteem issues, no emotional/psychological coping skills, and an agressive temperament...all of these characteristics are serious impediments to intimate relationships, hence her difficulties with me, and the disintegration of her relationships with each of her kids as they approached puberty, and started challengeing their parents. I am a rescuer/peopleleaser and our marital pathology was predictable.

We eventually both withdrew, lived pretty much emotionally/psychologically seperate liives (including seperate bedrooms, little time spent together (why do it, I only got yelled at when I did, I could do nothing right..she felt the same), seperate bedrooms and essentially no sex for at least 5 years before the emotional affair, with a brief PA (no intention of intercouirse, and there was none, but was sexually inappropriate). I don't blame her, rescuers/pp are just as much at fault for dysfunctional marriages as any other reason, I enabled. For 20+ years I could not understand why we had to live like this, it was killing me, and near as I could tell, she wasn't very happy either, and seemed to think I was the source of her unhappiness. Eventually all I had left was my religious conviction, maybe that is enough for some to go on forever, it is not enough for me, living a marriage by rote makes no sense at all....like being divorced, but you have a marriage license....somehow I didn't think God was to impressed with that kind of obedience. IMO marriage only exists when the two people are connected and can see each other, otherwise they are simply cohabitateing for mutual benefits....such as security, financial benefits, not being alone, for kids benefits, and so forth.... that isn't an intimate relationship, and it definitely isn't marriage. If marriage isn't a safe/healthy/nurturing/joyous place for both people, it makes no sense at all, might as well be divorced, one can be dutiful/responsible just as easily divorced as married...only without the stress of the failed expectation for intimacy. The missing piece to the puzzle for me was the discovery of behavioral science, now I had an explanation for why one can't just "do it". Everything made a lot more sense, and I realized that I truly could not make my wife happy, and would always be a source of stress and discomfort to her....and she me....

I think about the affair alot, how could someone with such a committment to proper behavior (me), and determined to martyr myself on the marital altar, remaining loyal (albeit celibate....a mutual choice for last 5 years... and distant) till I died, how could I become involved with another woman? I had had scores of opportunity, I see women constantly, in their homes, thousands over the years (I am a home repair man), and had never even thought about such it, and thought very little of those who pursued such things. A few weeks before the intial on-line contact (on a religious debate board) with the person I eventually made friends with, I had stated on a thread about affairs, I would "kill" myself before becoming involved in an affair......pretty prideful huh? I suspect God does not appreciate such prideful behavior, and I realize now in my righteous arrogance, and legalistic marital strategy, I was quite disobedient re God's will....I was decideing I knew what he wanted for me. So I was tested, failed, and was humbled....my pedastal in ruins, and rightly so.....turns out I am no better than anyone else....and my strategy of marital martydom was not going to be accepted. I could either learn from it, or try to glue it back together.....I chose to learn from it. Part of that learning is that marriage/love is not just a decision, it has to obey other natural law as well....or it won't work. You can fake it, but it won't work, and radical honesty won't let you fake it. If you fake it, you just end up with unhappy, resentful, people living in stressful marriages. However, that doesn't mean you get to be irresponsible, or avoid the consequences....so if you do divorce, you have committments to uphold, and a requirement of goodwill between exspouses....at least that is what I believe...seems not everyone does.

My exw was not interested in any of my thoughts, she was adamant and aggressive about what she wanted....me back in the H role, no ifs ands or buts about it, and she was very very aggressive in pursuit of that goal. Unfortuneately her tactics were the ones she had learned to employ successfully in the past...guilt me, or appear vitimized and needy... what she didn't realize was this was not going to work anymore.....I absolutely was not going back to the kind of marriage we had, I knew it was not good for her, or for me. Nor do I think she comprehended then, or ever, the depth of my emotional distrust for her....and everything she did simply made me more certain I could never trust (be vulnerable) with her....and I had come to know that was essential to a successful relationship. For a long time I thought she just didn't get it, was just aggressive for agressive sake....I now know this is a temperament mismatch, she is playing by the rules that she understands in her world...which is essentiall a structured rule making enviroment....this is the polar opposite of the world I live in, where there are no rules, only guidelines, and one reevaluates regularly, where the importance is the process, not the goal. In a nutshell, my exw is predisposed to use any tactic that achieves the goal, in this case marital committment....my temperament is employ healthy behavior, and the goal will be whatever it is supposed to be....makes no difference, the focus is how you get there. Obviously this is over-simplified, my exw does have some idea behavior matters, and I know one must have some idea of a goal for giving purpose to the endeavour....but the conflict over these mindsets is substantial. She wants marriage period, just do it.....I want marriage that makes sense.....this of course is exactly what polarizes Christians on marital dogma as well....and I suspect if we temperament typed people their would be an unmistakeable correlation between temperament and marital philosophy...clearly the two types should never cross marry...but stay with their type.

My exw aggression led to the infamous torn rotator cuff incident, which has been talked about in detail in the past, but briefly it was an accident, one initiated by my exw, but I exercised poor judgement as well. My exw came to where I lived in righteous indignation over what she thought was breaking "rules", and demanded I comply with her request (she wanted the key to a safe deposit box containing emails etc from the affair). I was po'd at her, and blew her off, refusing to comply. She became more agitated, pushed into my "domicile", and proceeded to verbaly attack me, and then start rummageing through my stuff telling me she can do whatever she wants. She refused repeated demands to leave my house, eventually I became angry and "acted", I attempted to grasp her and escort her out the front door (something I had had to do once before allready, and she went peacefully). This time she resisted, sliding out of my grasp as one would do, leaveing me holding one arm, and then she squatted down on the floor, digging her heels in to avoid movement toward the door. In so doing her arm rotated up (I was standing), and a genetic defect (an unknown bone spur on her clavicle) caused a tear in her rotator cuff. This was unknown at the moment, the symptons don't show up for awhile, but by then the adrenaline was falling off, and she was screaming like a banshee (as "some" women do when in conflict)...coming to my senses, and seeing she was not going to go peaceably, I called the cops....something I should have done in the first place....but ya know, calling the cops on a spouse is something one does reluctantly....it is an awful thing. Anyways they came, she admitted to shoving me first, which meant she was the one who would be arrested, I said no of course.... they informed her she had to leave, and they weren't going to make me give her the key, and that her behavior was illeagle.....and not to come back (something she didn't obey, so much for "rules" when they apply to her).

Later we found out about the rotator cuff, and soft tissue issues in her back from the incident. I regret this alot, and feel terrible for my exw.... but I won't take responsibility for her part in it....we both are to old to be acting like schoolkids, and both our actions were childish, but the injury is still an accident, their was no intent to cause physical harm in an abusive punishing intimidateing way.....my right to remove someone from my home is one of the oldest rights of property in existence....I am guilty of poor judgement, and it has cost me thousands of dollars....she is guilty of poor judgenment and it has cost her a lot of pain. It is reprehensible she has manipulated this incident into an abuse issue, not only does it outrage me, but it outrages all 4 of our children....but no one tells my exw what to do, she does what she wants. As for "abuse", if that is all physical intimidation is then she has neglected to mention several incidents SHE intitated during some altercations after dday....including grabbing me about the leg and trying to prevent me from walking out the front door (from an argument for crying out loud, to cool off)...dragging her along the floor as I stocially tried to keep moving with this 120# weight around my ankle......running out another time placing herself in the door to my vehcicle preventing my entry.......etc. The point is, none of this is abuse, it is just the physical manifestation of extreme conflict and heightened emotions. She also looked at me once cold as ice, and very believeable, telling me she should get a gun and shoot me, actually scared me a bit....she seemed pretty determined...was that abuse? So for those who think faith is some poor abused woman, she is not, never has been, and gives as good as she gets.....she has also had physical altercations with the kids, and recently tried to goad my oldest daughter (who was outraged at her mother) into hitting her....hardly the behavior of a chronic abuse victim. Her weapon of choice is a very sharp tounge, tries to goad provoke extreme distress in people, but is willing to get her hands dirty as well....no need for anyone to feel sorry for her on this score, she doesn't deserve it....she does deserve sympathy for her medical issues, but not for how they happened. This was the story of our marriage, if we kept it superficial, walked away from the arguments, we kind of got by....but if anyone crossed their mother, she would escalate until she won, so we pretty much didn't do that...well least I did...the kids aren't so accomodateing of their mother's defensiveness, or as intimidated as I am by her capacity for anger....so their are some doozies of fights....which just makes me want to run for the hills as fast as I can....I do not do well in hostile enviroments. My role was usually to deflect anger onto me, the kids didn't deserve it, but that usually didn't work well, the kids just ended up mad at me too as I tried to be the peacemaker....a thankless task as all peacemakers know.

re the question about medical bills....well no offense to anyone, but mind your own business...ya know? Yep we have bills, yep they are alot, and yep I have issues with health delivery and costs in our country....and I will deal with them in my own way in my own time as best I can....and I don't much care what anyone thinks about it....well, unless someone wants to pay them for me....any offers? In the meantime all my exw support monies are paid, they will always be paid, I also give her money regularly for prescriptions (why she is taking anxiety drugs 3 years after the affair is confusing to me...but also her medicine for her back), therapy, etc. As well as provide health insurance (which despite her complaints) is very good, and highly recommended....it is a MSA medical savings account.

I appreciate the supportive comments, but that is not my goal.....what I want is for my exw to heal, not only medically, but emotionally as well....and those who enable her victimhood are not helping that goal, hence my perception this additional information may be helpful. For the record.

1. The affair was wrong, was my fault totally, and I do not, and never have uttered a single word to my exw, or anyone else to the contrary.

2. I have never abused my exw, or any other woman.

3. I have paid all the money I owe my exw all along, including the 1 1/2 years of seperation b4 divorce, and was generous beyond what a judge would grant in a divorce....she has not suffered in the slightest financialy, and has substantial assets....nor will I (or the kids) ever let her starve, her well-being is assured.

4. I have only called my wife names in the heat of extreme provocation, and she was giving as good as she got....I am not proud of my behaviour in this regard, and I apologize when I do....although it sticks in my craw cause she does not....but that is her problem.

5. I have good relations with all my kids, they are not particularly traumatized, leastwise no more than they were by the dysfunctional marriage, or their mothers issues. There is work that needs to be done...but that is actually more likely now that the bandaids of denial have been ripped off our marriage.

6. I am a responsible, decent human being, who was devoted and faithful to my exw and kids for essentially my entire adult life. I made a bad decision, I know why, and I have learned from it....that is all I can do....but that had little to do with the marriage, was only a sympton, and had nothing to do with the divorce. I did not run to some ow, I left alone, after assessing being single the rest of my life with no one, was preferable to living married and having two unhappy miserable people.....we seperated/divorced 2 years ago, I still primarily just work, pay the bills, mentor my young adult children, and respond to my exw many requests.....I really don't see why that makes me an ogre...but whatever.

7. I didn't agree, but now I do understand, that some temperament types will need a different enviroment. I can function in a benign exspouse enviroment as extended family to each other.....I really don't understand why others cannot (assuming people are good to each other). But apparently that is not the case, some need you gone, so I am in the process of restructuring my life so as to be gone from my exw enviroment, and I stay away from her as much as possible.

muzo et al....your comments are predictable, such things use to irritate me, but temperament and behavior education has enlightened me to the nature of such differences of opinion. I am not responsible in any way for my exw behavior, and indeed my needs and hers conflict....my past choice was to accomodate her needs as much as I could....what I didn't understand was the resentment that would breed. The point is I matter too muzo, and she is going to have to adjust to me as well, she is not going to get the entire isolation she wants as long as she chooses to live with the kids....however, life being what it is, the youngest graduates from HS in a couple months, the two middle ones have a little college left, and will move on.. and the oldest wants to move too, as do I.....so this will sort itself out....the problem with exw is her needs are so over-whelming, they always are "more" important than anyone elses, that is the nature of victimhood.....it is the perfect strategy to get someone like me focused and sacrificial....I have to fight the urge to do whatever she wants, all the time....including staying married....it was really hard to let the marriage go, I constantly wanted to save it....but for all the wrong reasons.

I had no emotional boundaries, now I do. perhaps she feels the same, seems she does, I experienced marriage as an emotional blackhole, sucking the life out of me.....nothing came back. Perhaps she experienced the marriage as chaotic, couldn't "count" on me following rules as she percieved them, making her crazy....I dunno....but clearly we were not healthy for each other. I do know in all our counselling, participation here, our own real life interactions....it was always about her, her drama, her pain, her needs.....she takes over every venue with her "needs".....mine get neglected, diminished, or ignored all together....when I can even get a word in edgewise...is my own fault, I am an enabler, I had stop...and I did. What you see is the fallout of my stopping....if I won't "play"...then I am the enemy and will be demonized....You suggest I am a "victim"....that is so funny, almost hilarious actually....I don't want anything in compensation, so how does that make me a victim? I just want to be left alone to conduct my life as I see fit...no one, including exw has to do anything for me....nor do I ask for anything. All I expect is respect, and fairplay...I get neither. I am still regularly blasted about the affiar, I am threatened with false criminal complaints, I am constantly hit on for money, despite already doing more than the divorce decree requires, my kids have no rights to ask me over (but anyone else is welcome, just not me)...and so forth and so on. My exw complains regularly about no concern for her....despite the fact I regularly inquire about her needs, medical condition, kid conflicts, financial stuff, and so forth......she never asks about my well being, much less what can she do for me....

Anyways, the point is I count too......and it is really annoying to everyone around a peoplepleaser when they start setting boundaries. We are still sorting out our exspousal relationship, not surprisingly I guess, it is difficult and conflictual as our marital relationship, all the more validation we definitely do not belong in a married relationship together. It will work out in due time, but more quickly if she stops thinking of me as the enemy and herself as a victim....and more quickly if I continue to give her more space...and I will do so.

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 06:07 PM: Message edited by: F4me_exH ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I broke my silence for one reason only, some posters are going beyond "support" and validateing a victim mentality, this is very unhealpful to my exw, and her relationships with myself, and her children. IMO this is seriously impedeing her recovery, and I hope this information encourages people to think more before giving bad advice. Emotionally/psychologically we had an extremely difficult marriage, and we coped by avoiding each other as much as possible.....My exw is an extremely responsible person when task oriented, she took excellent care of the kids, was a great help in the business, and ran the houselhold very well...she is also a wonderful/dependable caregiver, and relaible friend to her circle....what she has is serious self-esteem issues, no emotional/psychological coping skills, and an agressive temperament...all of these characteristics are serious impediments to intimate relationships, hence her difficulties with me, and the disintegration of her relationships with each of her kids as they approached puberty, and started challengeing their parents. I am a rescuer/peopleleaser and our marital pathology was predictable. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">no, this is not why you have posted. not in the least. . .

the reason why you have posted is that you have not sufficiently cut financial and legal ties so that you two are independent. . . the reason is probably that you are either too lazy or its too inconvenient or more financially expensive to cut the ties completely. . .

with the expected cut financial ties of divorced people, the advice here is sound. the problem is your inability to be totally financially independent, and legally independent. . . anything else is pure crap. . . or laziness or further financial cost. . .

your issue is not F4M's healing, its your legal and credit troubles that stem from your lack of independence seeking that goes along with divorce. . . and therefore, F4M's interference in your issues. . .

so get a grip, do the work to get each other out of your own lives financially and legally, and emotionally . .

wiftty

Wifty was very very right.

If you were for f4m's healing, then you'd understand the need to separate from her emotionally and financially to allow for good boundaries for the both of you.

You both have to stop this. Email each other or get a new counselor to achieve this. Your personal stuff is between you two.

She is still very emotionally attached to you and I suggest there's a payoff for you too as you are passively attached as well.

Divorce is divorce. It's to divide. Not to go out to eat together, walk around in each other's houses or whatnot. It's not to be nasty but to end something.

Nothing has been solved or ending here. You still read her stuff and you still post. You both are feeding each other and I see it now.

I want her to heal as I am healing and moving on. If you want to, take Wifty's advice ok.

Each marriage/divorce here is different. Different issues and outcomes. Most have adultery in common as being key contributor to the demise or a big part. But this has got to stop from both ends.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">SNL wrote regarding his wife's physical pain:
"and she was screaming like a banshee (as women do)..." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know SNL, if you wanted to write something highly infammatory to offend most females, I can guarantee you your quote up above has most certainly accomplished that.

I can only imagine that at this time in your life you must hold a great deal of contempt and distain, and maybe even hatred towards the female sex.

I'm very saddened to see such things written. Just very sad.

Jo

SNL,
I am throwing myself in with Resilient. That was a shabby comment man.

Just so you'all know, I will be copying this post and also putting it on Faith4me's thread.

What is happening here is quite easy to see: Faith4me and SNL are addicted to each other. Now, I am POSITIVE they will both protest and deny and maybe even accuse me of something to shift the focus (which I will ignore), but the simple truth is...this is an addiction just like any other. If SNL and Faith4me were alcoholics, we would not just keep telling them: "Just STOP DRINKING" because you can tell an alcoholic that a thousand times and they won't stop. It's an undeniable craving--and a true addict will not see the damage they are doing OR the damage being done to them! EVERYTHING will be lost and sacrificed in order to "get" the addiction.

So, working from the frame of mind that their abusive interactions are an addiction, what's the first thing we learn in any addiction recovery program? That the addict has to WANT to stop. That we can not "make" them or "convince" them or "explain it" to them...they have to see it as a problem and WANT to stop of their own volition. Clearly neither SNL nor Faith4me see this as a problem in their lives, nor do they have any desire to stop.

Once an addict DOES see that their addiction is a problem over which they have no control, what's the next thing we do? The addict has to go through the pain of withdrawal. Yes...pain. Even through their interactions are abusive and cause them both enormous anguish and suffering, it is still some sort of sick connection. If they were to realize that this connection was an addiction, they would have to suffer the pain of withdrawing from the other--and right now, neither one of them is willing to withstand the pain it would cause themself. Faith4me is not willing to withstand the withdrawal pain of having no one to "call on" for help and no one to "blame" for her victimhood; and SNL is not willing to withstand the withdrawal of having no one to "control" and no one to "blame" for his abusive outbursts.

The payoff to both of them is that they maintain the unhealthy addictive connection, neither one has to face themself and realize that their issues are their own issues, and they continuous have someone else in their life to blame for their unhappiness and misfortune. As any true alcoholic would tell you, drinking is not the problem--drinking helps FIX the problem. Well for SNL and Faith4me, their abusive-addictive connection is not the problem--HE or SHE is the problem. See??

So as people who care for two people who are addicts, what can we do? What would we do if they were addicted to alcohol? We have to set boundaries so that their abuse of each other does not hurt us (protect ourselves), and we have to let them suffer the consequences of their addiction, and we have to let them hit bottom.

It's sad. I'm afraid for them. I am afraid that it will get very bad before either one admits that they are the one with the addiction. :tear:

Just to set the record straight, I'm not speaking about SNL and Faith4me without knowing where they're coming from. My relationship with my abusive exH was also an addiction, and just as I am stating in my post, I myself had to recognize that it was an addiction that was hurting me AND suffer there pain of withdrawal. I kept coming up with reasons and excuses why "I needed to call my exH", and I virtually had to train myself to NOT call him...to NOT interact...to think of alternatives (like if I needed milk, I got it or I asked a kid to get it--not him!)...to break free of the addiction. I know of what I speak.


CJ

<small>[ February 23, 2004, 02:35 AM: Message edited by: Cherished ]</small>

the reason I used the comment about banshee was to evoke an image of how crazy the moment had become....and believe me, no man I have ever heard can scream like a woman when they are motivated to do so....nor would one do so under those circumstances....I have no control over what people choose to be offended by....I guess I could have prefaced with the word "some" women, but frankly all this PC stuff is really tiresome...anyone who doesn't allready realize general statements do not, cannot, ever apply to everyone, has issues...what can I say.....however, in the interest of ruffled feathers I will edit and insert the word "some". For crying out loud, people are really perplexing at times, guess that is what the thing about personality types is getting at....but ya know what, you had to be there, it was pretty awful, I couldn't believe what the two of us had reduced down too... and for those who do not think women use screaming as a weapon need to go back to their anthropology texts....it is very effective.

<small>[ February 22, 2004, 06:05 PM: Message edited by: F4me_exH ]</small>

wifty, your logic was pretty much incomprehensible on this one....but I did get you thought the motivation was somehow financial. You are mistaken, there are no financial problems for either of us, there is conflict over allocation of resources though...but it will be all worked out in due time, I forsee no real problems in that regard. Unless some disater strikes, we have sufficient resources to insure both our well-being. No, wish it were that simple, our problems are psychological and emotional....not actual.

peachy...If you were for f4m's healing, then you'd understand the need to separate from her emotionally and financially to allow for good boundaries for the both of you.

exh...I did not understand this for some time...still don't actually. I am incapable of "understanding" this emotionally, it is not how my world works. However, I do now understand rationally this is what she wants, I intend to give it to her.....I have abandoned my notion we could be amicable, and extended family, and am working toward that end.

fw, mostly I object to the use of the word addiction in relationships, I do not think it is accurate encough to be of any value. However, we did have an extremely strong co-dependentcy, we fit like hand n glove, in all the wrong ways psychologically. She is a strong, and capable victim....I am a strong and capable rescuer. The relationship isn't abusive, allthough sometimes the behavior is...but IMO that is true in every relationship...ours does not meet any rational standard for abuse....Whether her or me (one of our counsellors tried to convince me I was emotionally abused...by some standards I was...so was she....but I fought him tooth and nail cause I knew I could always leave...in the end, the labels mean nothing anyways). What I am is an enabler, that is just as bad as the behavior one enables, just two sides of the same coin....the only way we were ever going to vanquish our own individual demons was apart....it took me decades to realize that, but I do now....she is not there yet. Someone had to do something, so I have done it, she filed, but I could have stopped it anytime with just a word....I remained silent because it had to be done....that way at least we did it together, so to speak. Until and unless we can function in a healthy manner as exspouses, there is no reason to think the divorce was a mistake, or that we should somehow try again...would just end up the same way. We are not addicted to each other fw, we are dependent on each other, and it is taking awhile to correct that, but it is happening. My point of this thread was to encourage people not to enable victimhood, it isn't helping... For those who see some other motive, you are entitled to your opinion, but you should try to figure what do I have to gain by most likely making f4m angry...she really hates it when I do stuff like this. Having her angry at you is not something one wants, believe me on that one.... I am a conflict avoider, this is not what conflict avoiders do for themselves....think about that.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">there is conflict over allocation of resources though </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">that was my point. . . you are not independent yet, as in TOTALLY SEPARATED. .

all names, all accounts, all properties separated. . all properties in either one name or the other. . . and each under one legal name. .

BTW, only enmeshed personalities can't figure out this one. . incomprehensible. . . doesn't take much intelligence to figure out that neitehr of you are independent from each other, either financially or emotionally from one another. . .

both of you need to grow up and learn to exist with minimal interactions. . .

wiftty

Ex-H:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">muzo et al....your comments are predictable, such things use to irritate me, but temperament and behavior education has enlightened me to the nature of such differences of opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">LOL!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You know, I may laugh this off, but a similar response to a marriage partner is bound to set off a minor explosion. Is this your normal way of broadly dismissing that which you may need to examine?? i.e., your blind spot? We all have a blind spot, y'know-- check yours out. The arrogance of the response/insult is as naked flame to a keg of dynamite <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Do you seriously think you're alone in all this, old chap? If I'm to take all you say at face value, the only difference between me and you, is the fact that my exW was the WS. The dynamic of our relationship, past and present, is near identical. The bulk of your post is what I could write as well, I kid you not.
She also became physical once with me, reaching for a hockey stick, (after kicking and punching me), I had to take some action, or she would have bashed my head in, I'm sure. The fact that you feel compelled to re-explain and justify (don't get me wrong, I'm not dicounting the accuracy, just the motivation), is not unlike the like manner in which you describe your exW's constant self-victimising.
Want some validation?

1. Not all people rashly "judge" others for affairs, we simply agree that it is wrong
2. The co-dependency thing you refer to I believe is accurate.
3. Your account of your relationship is credible to me, since mine is almost identical. I could copy and paste 80% of your post and go "ditto" at the end. Seriously.

Now for the hard truth:
First you say this:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You suggest I am a "victim"....that is so funny, almost hilarious actually....I don't want anything in compensation, so how does that make me a victim? I just want to be left alone to conduct my life as I see fit...no one, including exw has to do anything for me....nor do I ask for anything. All I expect is respect, and fairplay...I get neither. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">.."not a victim...?"
..a few lines later you write this:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My exw complains regularly about no concern for her....despite the fact I regularly inquire about her needs, medical condition, kid conflicts, financial stuff, and so forth......she never asks about my well being, much less what can she do for me....
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">...yes, this is what you wrote. Now, before you presuppose to the exact educational status of other respondents, you'd do well to draw upon that "temperament and behavior education" of yours, and direct some of it towards thineself <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

muzo