Welcome to the
Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum

This is a community where people come in search of marriage related support, answers, or encouragement. Also, information about the Marriage Builders principles can be found in the books available for sale in the Marriage Builders® Bookstore.
If you would like to join our discussion forum, please read the Announcement Forum for instructions, rules, & guidelines.
The members of this community are peers and not professionals. Professional coaching is available by clicking on the link titled Coaching Center at the top of this page.
We trust that you will find the Marriage Builders® Discussion Forum to be a helpful resource for you. We look forward to your participation.
Once you have reviewed all the FAQ, tech support and announcement information, if you still have problems that are not addressed, please e-mail the administrators at mbrestored@gmail.com
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 176
M
mp22 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 176
I'm curious about this because I am a born again Christian who is married to a scientist. He thinks that I'm completely ridiculous and stupid(I forgot weak too) for believing in God. I don't understand how he could not. I think that science and the Bible go together. Everything in the universe is so orderly- could that have just happened by chance even over millions of years? I think that nature is so orderly because it was planned to be that way. Wouldn't a creator want it to be that way? What about conception? What about galaxies? What about our brain that nobody can explain how it really works? What about see creatures that live so far beneath the surface of the water? I could go on and on. I was just curious if there are any scientist out there who believe in God. Your responses would be greatly appreciated.Both views are welcome. Mary.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 176
M
mp22 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 176
Sea creatures, not see creatures!!! You have to realize that it is almost midnight!!!! Mary.

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 146
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 146
My father is a scientist and a baptist, he works in sound and sound effects.

<small>[ August 07, 2002, 05:22 AM: Message edited by: The Running Man ]</small>

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
Mary,

Dealing with a scientific person can be so so difficult because they 'think' that science is so unbiased and based on fact. Think of pitting religious beliefs versus science on an even playing field...has your H ever REALLY compared the evidence?

There is a very compelling book called 'The Case for Christ' by Lee Strobel that attempts to present the evidence for Christianity. Its a good book and does present some compelling evidence. At the same time, there will never be compelling evidence enough for those who do not wish to see the evidence for what it is.

In the end, I think that the easiest thing to do is to consult the source. Many years ago, I wanted to decide what the deal with God and all of that was. I took a look at the definition of God that everyone used and given that definition, God should have been able to hear me and respond as He/She/It saw fit. I just asked God to help me to see the TRUTH, whatever it was, and to (in a nutshell) prove His/Her/Its existence. That really isn't an unreasonable request and in short order, I believe that God proved everything that I needed in a way that was utterly convincing to ME. If your H is honest, perhaps he can try that route and see what the end result is.

At the same time, understand that there simply is no absolute proof for the existence of God. Your H is not wrong to not believe. I believe in God totally, but that has been my personal decision and it sounds like you have made the same decision, but your H must find out for himself.

Hope that helps!

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
Mary, you could argue your differences till kingdom come, and nothing will change. It is about respecting the differences between the two of you - THAT is the problem. I'm a protestant, but that doesn't mean I don't respect Jews, Muslims, Hindus, etc. There are also a multitude of choices under protestant. Does that mean MY chucrch is the only way? No. That is their choice, and I have made my choice. That doesn't mean one is right and the other is wrong. That's just the way it is. He needs to stop putting you down for your choice. He isn't you and he can't tell you who to be.

If your husband wants to be married to a clone of himself, let him look in the mirror. Your marriage would be extremely boring if you two were the same. Let him help you get out of your comfortable rut and you help him with finding stability in life. Use your differences in a constructive way instead of fighting against them.

Joined: May 2002
Posts: 131
H
Member
Offline
Member
H
Joined: May 2002
Posts: 131
How can a person who knows all the scientific wonders of the world not know that the only way the world could be this way is if God created it? I agree with you, and I don't understand how someone can believe anything other than God...especially when they know the details.

Good luck. Keep praying that God will soften his heart. It may take a long time, but don't give up. I have a friend whose husband didn't believe in God for 50 years. He just recently accepted Jesus. She didn't give up....prayed constantly!!

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
Is this an example of one of your husband's "conversations"? If it is, I can see how tiring it is to have everything turn into a "debate", who's right and who's wrong. Your husband needs to find an outlet for his "debating skills" and talk to you as a husband would. Women do not enjoy antigonistic conversations. Women like more cooperative conversations. Maybe he should be a lawyer. LOL.

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
Oh yeah, I forgot. Attacking character "completely ridiculous and stupid(I forgot weak too)" shows he has no evidence to support his side of the argument. It's used as a last resort to invalidate the witness. How low.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
Wow! You guys are fast! Look how quickly you have taken what undoubtably is a complex situation about the relationship between mp22 and bp22 and deduced that the H is utterly wrong about everything! Maybe it is just me, but I sincerely doubt that you are helping the H by pounding him so hard (and judgementally, too, by the way) and you aren't doing the W any good by deciding that she can do no wrong.

Not only that, but how quickly the original purpose of this question has been turned back to what is already being dealt with on another thread.

If it were me, I think that I would conclude that y'all are just a bit quick and intolerant in your judgement of the H here. That doesn't strike me as being helpful. There are two people here and I GUARANTEE that both W and H are doing what they think is their best and at the same time, have failures abounding on both their parts. We are all just failure prone humans. Maybe it would be better to be a little more gentle and understanding rather than using the current tact. I don't know too many people who need to be slammed as hard or as often as the H is here.

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
I agree with you spt. They are both to blame for the current state of the marriage. I come from Mary's side so I can offer her more empathy. I'm sure others can give the husband's side. I feel for Mary. Living with someone that hates you builds a lot of mistrust, resentment, depression, you name it. She can learn that she can't change him, only herself and the way she reacts to him. Yes she does have issues. I just want her to know that she did nothing wrong to cause him to hate her. He's looking for something, a fantasy and blames her for not living up to that ideal. He needs to back off and let her be and she just might surprise him by opening up and being more of what he wants. He can't force her into being what he wants. The more he forces, the more she gets polarized in her view. The poles end up farther and farther apart.

She may NEVER be EXACTLY what he wants, but will he be satisfied with that? His comments here state that he will not. He wants the ideal or nothing. How then can she ever win? What is the compromise? There is no compromise. He's placed her in a no-win marriage.

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
pjb,

All of what you say may very well be true, but again, are you so sure that you can take such a quick look at this relationship and come up with an unerring diagnosis that you are so sure of that you pound the H with a sledgehammer?

I have noticed that it is common on MB for people to project. One person has had a horrible experience with their spouse doing a certain thing and so they respond to anything remotely looking like their own situation as if it were their situation.

This is not a black and white situation. This H is not the bad guy that you have made him out to be and the W is not the angelic being that you have made her out to be. Things are simply never that simple.

All I am saying is that your criticism is delivered in such a pounding and overwhelming manner, that is judgemental and most likely counter-productive. Suppose that your own feelings (being so complex that maybe you only understand 70% of them) are squashed like a bug here. Do you suppose that that will induce you to see the error of your ways or to get defensive?
That assumes (an unlikely assumption) that your judgement of the situation is utterly correct.

All I am trying to point out is that you guys are being:
1. Hyper-critical.
2. Judgemental.
3. Ultra-confident of your conclusions in the absense of much evidence.

Maybe it would be better to be just a little more understanding and less pounding?

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 61
I am not jumping to any conclusions here. The husband has stated emphatically many times that he wants his ideal, and only his ideal, and if Mary can't live up to it then he will hate her, not even tolerate her or accept her, but hate her. He justifies it over and over and defends himself whenever anyone questions him on it. I feel sorry for Mary for having to be on the defensive all the time. She shouldn't have to live like this.

OK. I'll shut up now.

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 36
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 36
pjb73pjb Aren't we jumping to conclusions here. Where in his posts did he say that if she didn't live up to his expectations that he would hate her?

Shouldn't everyone just get back to the problem at hand and try to help this couple? Isn't that what is suppose to happen on MB.

There is nothing wrong with being a friend to someone, but a true friend can tell you when your being wrong.

BTW Spt-fl Very well said, I do have such a smart husband.

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 176
M
mp22 Offline OP
Member
OP Offline
Member
M
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 176
I appreciate everyone's opinions, but please respond to my husband and me on the other thread please. I'm really interested in the scientist and God thing on this thread. Thanks. You are right. I'm not perfect and I know it. Also, my husband does have a good side too. He's very thoughtful of others(if they aren't me) and is always changing flat tires or helping someone shovel and stuff like that. He helps our neighbor put hay in the barn and helps people move. He does help with the kids now although he didn't when they were younger.(they are girls 5,7,and 8). We both have a love for animals and one time he tried(unsuccessfully) to save a deer that jumped off a high hill into a gorge near our house. He waded right into the water even though it was Nov. (I think) and the water was freezing! These kinds of things make me love him all the more. Me on the other hand. I have a bad temper lately and am struggling with anger issues. I can be pretty grumpy sometimes.(lots of times!) I'm not very patient with the kids at times. Also, as you already know- I can be very frigid sexually at times.(many times). Although I can be steamy occasionally. I don't like to have conversations with my husband and am quite quiet at times. I'm not into politics and not much interested in current events. I don't have a lot of friends and don't get out a lot. I need to find a hobbie when I find the time to do that. I don't spend much time thinking about or helping out with our new house(I don't know if I'll be living there long-it's my husband's dream not mine). I think that those are my major problems. Thanks for listening!! Mary. Now back to science and God.

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 63
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 63
hmm.. can a scientist believe in God .....??

err.... Einstein was a deist... and, so is Stephen Hawking..

Newton and Gallileo were christians...

Few people would argue that the 4 above were (or are in the case of hawking) scientific lightweights......

insofar as christianity vs. science (since you are a christian) .. well mixed thing... those that argue for a strict/literal biblical account of creation ect.. will often fly science straight in the face as it concerns the question of the age of the universe for instance.... 10.000 years vs. 16-18 billion or thereabouts....and of course.. the pesky thing about evolution is always an issue..... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Me.. I believe in God... and, am a sucker for science too... if there is a contradiction, it is imho not a contradiction between science and God per se.. but, between science and man's perception and understanding of God.....

Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,343
B
Member
Offline
Member
B
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 1,343
WOW! I think mp22 has been abducted by aliens! I better run home NOW...who know's what else might be so radically different! LOL

I'm not so certain it is limited to science per se...but here's my take.

I was raised a born again christian. I was taught all sorts of things...I was never taught they might be wrong. So I bought into them, Mom did, Dad did, I did. Yet as a youngin' I would lay out on a clear night and just marvel about the sky. Then there was Star Wars, Star Trek repeats, (I was born in '69), and it just captivated me. What is out there? How does it work? How far way? How big? ???? Never stopped askign questions. Of course I never get answers at home...so I read books. I was perhaps the only 8 year spending his allowance on astronomy text books! Anyways, I was completely captivated. Yet the Bible clear says how we all arrived...how it all arrived. So, OK, they both can't be right...or can they? So as time went on, I believed God created everything...and it just happened as physics and mathematics shows. I used to teach our Sunday school class and point these things out...why not? I was a great christian...even tried to convert all my friends. LOL

So, enter college. Finally, my questions have answers. After a year of physics, it became rather clear to me...why did I need a Creator? Why did "someone" have to start it all? Why did "someone" have to architect anything? My faith was extremely shattered. Show me the evidence, show me the proof, show me the reason why something/someone had to create this.
Whenever I talk to people about God, which is every chance I get by the way, just had a mormon and a Muslim in my lab the other day talking this very topic...I always hear them say it makes them feel better to believe. Good for them...if it works, makes them happy, good for them. But personally, I don't believe. I have no need to believe...I can't believe. Sure, I wish I could think I would live forever, somehow, but alas I will turn to dirt. I wish I could see my little brother that died in 1976 in a house fire, but alas I won't. I wish I had the comfort my mother clings to that got her through the death of a child...I don't know how I'd do that. But for me, casting faith in Christ wouldn't help.

So that's what my tennant is...that religion is a personal thing, that people can believe whatever they want, whatever they need too, whatever works for them. But what I don't like about religion, especially these organized controlling religions, is in my eye, they try to squelch independent thought, analysis, exploration, and understanding. At least in the born again church (baptist) and the way I was raised: don't think, just believe. That's how it was. I think, personally, that is the largest "problem" with human civilization. Religion and all its "bad" attributes. People kill each other for "God". The same god...no doubt. They have done so for thousands of years...they will do so for the next hundred at least...and certainly we hear about it EVERY DAY now.

But for me, I can't believe...because there is no evidence. Some seem to think that science takes faith to accept. I disagree. Science is predicatable...that is what makes science science. Mathematics is a formalism which is arbitrary...1+1=2. What is one after all? But it is a self consistent working formalism. It predicts things. Using the tools of mathematics, physicists will predict things. Things that can be measured. Then the experiment is done. Sometimes yes, sometimes no. Often not a first, but then yes as the experiment is refined.

But we don't just throw out a theory and say it is so. In my opinion, any good physicist would say the Big Bang makes some sense...but there are many holes in it. Anyone that says it is "gosepl" (LOL) is I think silly.

Two thousands years ago, people thought Hercules (I think) drove the sun across the sky in a chariot. What would I have done if tending my fields in the middle ages and at noon the sun started to disappear? I could see no moon...but suddenly...the sun would disappear? !! And what of those bright dancing objects just before/after sunset? They are bright, they scintillate, and they MOVE from night to night...then they go...to come back later???? What is that? Is something coming to eat my crops? Me? I would be fearful. Invoke the church, and its infinite wisdom and teachings...and clearly these things are explained. And I'd feel better...trust in Jesus...he will protect and provide.

But I prefer to understand them as planets...venus and jupiter most likely. And a solar eclipse...we all understand this today. In the future, we will understand more about the Universe, more about the brain, more about the mind, more about DNA, more about everythign. We advance in technology and understand everyday.

But why do we conjure up a diety? Why? Why can't we look at the beautiful symmetries of nature, physics is SO full of symmetry, especially in the sub-atomic regime...and see how it works and understand how it works...and see that it is natural for these things to occur? Predict...measure...refine...it is how it works in science.

And if there is a creator, than obviously, who created her?

How can you imagine that with the vastness of the Universe, we are the only life forms?? C'mon. And why would a 100 year life time on Earth define our ETERNAL existence forever?? C'mon. So this wonderful, magnificent creator of all is going to limit our Earthly lives to 100 years...giving us the chance to accept him or not...in order to define our eternal resting place for our soul? C'mon. Why would it not be 10,000 years? Even Methusla (spelling is wrong I'm sure) was only 700 years or so...

And why is there no evidence? Why must it be complete faith? Why? And why is it so easy to accept this on blind faith when hard facts can be measured every day? And why do people turn around and say "That's the point..it's all about faith." Don't you think all people would have faith in the past when they knew no better? But today it is different...with science and technology...I claim we don't need to invoke the idea.

Darwin, I believe, is on the right track. But something huge is missing...no doubt. I am not an expert...but I will say we don't have the whole picture. But we learn...we search...we ask questions.

Life grows deep in the SEA. Why? There should not be enough energy from the sun. Fact is, there isn't. But there are deep sea vents that release the chemisty and energy to support these little critters. Critters that look alot like surface critters, but no eyes to see (no light to see)!!! Amazing how God made all these little buggers, eh? And maybe if they live at the bottom of our Sea, what about at the bottom of Europa? It appears to be rather active...ice on a liquid water ocean perhaps? And then perhaps life of some form in the water beneath? Science is planning a visit there...to melt through the ice...and to search and explore.

Why would God allow children to be abducted, brutually abused and murdered???? How? Oh, yes, God's willl...mysterious ways...all things have good. Bullcrap! The devil? My daughter was in tears a few weeks ago...after a lengthly discussion about being naughty....becuase she was sad I was going to go "down there" with her thumbing pointing down. I will not allow my children to be brainwashed as I was. I will present to them the alternative beliefs...and encourage them to learn everything...and decide when they are older and have learned more.
(Not to mention not picking your spouse at age 12!)

So, for me, I have no need for a god. Not becuase I am better, not because I am god, but because I can't accept what can not be shown. Sure, I have faith everyday. I trust my wife not to kill me when I am sleeping...(sometimes I wonder...a zillion times...geesh...LOL) I trust man when I fly...when I drive on a bridge...when I have surgery. But I don't give this trust blindly. I wouldn't fly in a plane until I was convinced it is OK. I won't walk across a bridge until I know it will hold me (not a trivial feat by the way). Nor would you. Now, please don't ask why I don't stop before I drive across every bridge and look at it...

So, for me, I just can't accept things on faith. people tell me a story...I say "I hear you"...but it doesn't mean I believe what they are saying. Is that because I think they are lieing? No...but it is a story. Did they see it? Or is it second/third/fortieth hand??

On the other hand, I am, I think, extremely spiritual. I have a tremendous connection to nature, the world around us, the beauty of it, the beauty of life. So many people just ignore it, walk by, never stop and realize, appreciate, or understand. Why? Money to make...things to do...whatever.

Some go to church. Mp22 was at a wedding last weekend...catholic...and in the ceremony the priest says "Oh yes, you all have a question you want to ask. And the answer is Yes, this counts as your service this week...no need to go to church tomorrow!" Phew...a sigh of relief. And the only thing I could think of asking would be "Have YOU molested any kids?"

Hyprocicy..spelling..it is horrendous. OK, someone will same I am a hypocrit here shortly.

So, I would say it isn't really science and god necessarily at ends. I think it is more logic and god. Or something like that.

Mary mentioned I say religion is for the weak...what I mean is...I think if it works for you, to make you happy, then great! But I would urge you to think about life more, analyize, and ask why you need to believe? Does it provide comfort? Does it make you feel better? Are you just afraid of death and feel like you need a friend to cast eveything on...this perfect friend that will take care of you always? It makes you feel better....great....but I think it is yourself feeling better. Do you really think prayer helps? What about the people who stand up and say "Thanks for all your prayers...I could feel them" and everyone looks around and says "We all had NO IDEA you were in the hospital??" C'mon...prayer...it makes you feel better...that's great....but do you really think someone is listening? God's will is already decided, no? His will be done...so why bother? It's full of circles...the Bible that is.

Yes, I don't want to die. It is a scarey thought. The day will come...I will take my last breath. To lie in a bed...and know this is the end. But I can gain no comfort in a misbelief. I wish I could.

On the other hand, there's morals. There's being a good person. There's being the kind of person that cares and helps others. That has nothing to do with god though.

Oh well...was distracted here for a couple of hours...so I'll let this fly.

For me, you can all pray all you want, but until the Holy Spirit comes down and does something in front of me that I can't believe, a true miracle...sorry, I'll never believe. But trust me, if I do believe, and I know that there is no other salvation than through Jesus Christ our Lord and Savior...watchout...you'll all hear me on the airwaves trying to save all the lost souls on Earth.

Be passionate in what you believe, just make sure you know what it is. And be ready and able to discuss it and explain it. It's not about arguing, its a conversation about what and WHY you believe what you do. I believe in what I believe because it is based on reproducible observables...not what I want to be, or what makes me feel good.

Bruce

Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
S
Member
Offline
Member
S
Joined: Nov 2001
Posts: 236
BP22,

Science is an excellent source for explaining the easily explained. Where science fails is on the whys. There are a lot of theories that I believe entirely because they are free from politics and other human frailties. Newton's laws of mechanics, for example. However, evolution has become not a theory, but a religion of its own. Is it any more unbelievable that a God exists and performed creation than it is to believe that from non-life matter emerged LIFE? Big bang in a simple sense says that matter grouped together and then exploded to form the universe. Where did the matter come from to begin with.

Argue all you will, but the fact is that it is just as logical and reasonable to believe that there is a God as it is to believe that something came from nothing.

Simpler than that is this. If this God, who can create a universe with a word and invented all life as we know it exists and if this God has the will to communicate with us, then this same God should be willing to communicate with YOU.

Ask God if he is real. Ask God to prove himself to you in a way that you can understand and accept. Surely if God is what people make him out to be, He can do such a thing.

That is the path that I took years ago from the stance of someone not brought up in any religion and who, at the time, was essentially an atheist. I did ask God these same questions and God has proven Himself to me in a way that is utterly convincing to me. Perhaps what convinced me would convince you, but again, if God is who He claims to be, He should be able to convince you with evidence that you find utterly compelling. If God can't or won't prove Himself to you in a way that you can accept, then you can simply choose to continue to not believe. My question to you is can you put aside all of your very academic biases? I went to college as well and took all the same types of courses. Yes, it does brings one faith into question. Can the God of the Bible co-exist with science? You betcha! The God of the Bible cannot co-exist with the biased and preconceived notions that PEOPLE attach to God. If there is a God, then as He says it, 'I am.' God is, if He exists, what He is and your acceptance is really neither here nor there.

The fact is that despite all of the scientific evidence to the contrary, God can exist. Two hundred years ago, we bled sick patients. Amazing what just two hundred years will do. If the Bible is true, it could be even more amazing what could be revealed as true ten minutes from now.

I like to put it all this way because to be honest, I bore with arguments that have no solution. There is no proof in the classic sense to prove your assertion that there is no God, nor is there proof of my belief that God exists exactly as He says. Consequently, I think that it is quicker to go right to the source.

Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 935
L
Member
Offline
Member
L
Joined: Feb 2002
Posts: 935
Can a scientist believe in God? Some of the other posters I think have answered this very well and shown that there are many eminent scientists who do, in fact, believe in God.

Each individual's experience of God comes to him/or her as just that - his own individual experience. As a Christian, it makes me sad to witness the dissent among fellow Christians about whether or not they have had the "right kind" of experience of God - this is one of the issues which makes non-Christians lose respect for Christians.

Be that as it may, the common argument on the existence of God always seems to hinge around his role as the Creator - is he there and if so, is he responsible for creating the material world, with its laws of science which we find ourselves living in?

I would like to present a simpler view - bp22's questing reminded me of a book I read many years ago, and in particular, several pages where the author discusses the nature of God and his own revelation - the book is Seven Storey Mountain by Thomas Merton, and the pages in question are pp 171-174. On these pages Merton relates his own intellectual awakening to the understanding that God is being itself - not just "The Creator" - at the time Merton was not a Catholic, and reacted with horror and disgust and a sense of betrayal at finding out that the book he had picked up was
"Nihil Obstat" - in accordance with Catholic dogma - he had the courage not to toss the book aside, but to continue reading - on p. 172 he writes

"..the one big concept which I got out of its pages was something that was to revolutionize my whole life. It is all contained in one of those dry, outlandish technical compounds that the scholastic philosophers were so prone to use: the word aseitas. In this one word, which can be applied to God alone, and which expresses his most characteristic attribute, I discovered an entirely new concept of God - a concept which showed me at once that the belief of Catholics was by no means the vague and rather superstitious hangover from an unscientific age that I believed it to be. On the contrary here was a notion of God that was at the same time deep, precise, simple and accurate and, what is more, charged with implications which I could not even begin to appreciate, but which I could at least dimly estimate, even with my own lack of philosophical training.
Aseitas - the English equivalent is a transliteration: aseity - simply means the power of a being to exist absolutely in virtue of itself, not as caused by itself, but as requiring no cause, no other justification for its existence except that its very nature is to exist. There can be only one such Being: that is God. And to say that God exists a se, of and by and by reason of Himself, is merely to say that God is Being Himself. Ego sum qui sum. And this means that God must enjoy "complete independence not only as regards everything outside but also as regards everything within Himself."

He goes on..."I think the reason why these statements, and others like them, made such a profound impression on me, lay deep in my own soul. And it was this: I had never had an adequate notion of what Christians meant by God. I had simply taken for granted that the God in Whom religious people believed, and to Whom they attributed the creation and government of all things, was a noisy and dramatic and passionate character, a vague, jealous, hidden being, the objectification of all their own desires and strivings and subjective ideals.
The truth is, that the concept of God which I had always entertained, and which I had accused Christians of teaching to the world was a concept of a being who was simply impossible. He was infinite yet finite; perfect and imperfect; eternal and yet changing - subject to all the variations of emotion, love, sorrow, hate, revenge, that men are prey to. How could this fatuous, emotional thing be without beginning and without end, the creator of all? I had taken the dead letter of Scripture at its very deadest, and it had killed me, according to the saying of St. Paul: "The letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life."
I think one cause of my profound satisfaction with what I now read was that God had been vindicated in my own mind. There is in every intellect a natural exigency for a true concept of God: we are born with the thirst to know and to see Him, and therefore it cannot be otherwise.
I know that many people are, or call themselves, "atheists" simply because they are repelled and offended by statements about God made in imaginary and metaphorical terms which they are not able to interpret and comprehend. They refuse these concepts of God, not because they despise God, but perhaps because they demand a notion of Him more perfect that they generally find: and because ordinary, figurative concepts of God could not satisfy them, they turn away and think that there are no other: or, worse still, they refuse to listen to philosophy on the ground that it is nothing but a web of meaningless words spun together for the justification of the same old hopeless falsehoods.
What a relief is was for me, now, to discover not only that no idea of ours, let alone any image, could adequately represent God, but also that we SHOULD NOT allow ourselves to be satisfied with any such knowledge of him."

I know this is long - I write it all down for bp22 - because I thought it might strike a chord - if not, no harm done.

LIR

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 186
P
Member
Offline
Member
P
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 186
Interesting topic we have here.....

Can a man/woman of science believe in God?

My dad was a teacher. When I was twelve, he took some classes at the local university to expand his certification. One of the classes he took was genetics. The professor of the class knew my father (he taught the professor's daughter in junior high) and allowed me to sit in on the class with him.

What I remember most about the class was the first day. The professor told the class that he did not understand how any intelligent, educated person could look at the DNA molecule and believe that it happened by simple, blind chance. I would have to agree.

At the same time, however, I am not devoutly religious. Far from it. I have very little use for "organized religion". I have read the Bible and the Koran, and I am amazed at the similarities of the wisdom imparted by both books. At the same time, I am appalled by how little understanding and application of that same wisdom so-called "devout followers" show on a daily basis.

The philosophy of life laid out in the New Testament is NOT one of blindly following where your "spiritual leaders" tell you to go. On the contrary, the underlying theme is one of personal enlightenment and responsibility. Early Christians were encouraged to question everything, not simply accept what was.

I think that the world would be a much better place if more people spent time reading these books and questioning what they found within, rather than blindly accepting what some "learned" person told them was the truth.

For what it's worth,

Has

Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 101
E
Member
Offline
Member
E
Joined: Jul 2002
Posts: 101
In my experience, science and God are separate issues.

A person who is a scientist can believe in God, and a person who is faithful can believe in science.

The power of science is that it guides us to truths in our own experience of the world, and allows us to understand what was once unfathomable.

God, by nature, is unfathomable. So these issues are not mutually exclusive or related, really.

I tend to have a very scientific, questioning nature. I had a hard time with God for a while.

There is power and strength in belief of any kind, God or science. We all have to find truth for ourselves, and cannot find it for others. I could not convince you Jesus was a mere carpenter, as I believe. You could not convince me that Jesus was a savior (I am Jewish). Doesn't matter--I respect your beliefs you respect mine. Scientific beliefs are no different.
EJ


Link Copied to Clipboard
Forum Search
Who's Online Now
0 members (), 63 guests, and 54 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Newest Members
Dodo M, Kingpin, MikaylaVaux, I.P., Alex82
71,727 Registered Users
Forum Statistics
Forums67
Topics133,545
Posts2,322,787
Members71,728
Most Online3,185
Jan 27th, 2020
Building Marriages That Last A Lifetime
Copyright © 1995-2020, Marriage Builders®. All Rights Reserved.  |  Web Development by SunStar Media.
Site Navigation
Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5