Hey - I'm glad we have this new Forum! Not necessarily glad that I have the "pleasure" of being in this situation . . . I need your input, please:<P>My H has OC by OW and the OC is now 1 1/2. We have a 3 1/2 yr old daughter. I "thought" that we were doing okay - I had finally agreed to include OC in our life (despite my adamant refusal from the beginning); however, seeing that my H would "lie" to me to be able to see this OC - I decided that I should take another step forward (myself) and include him so that my H and I could have an honest relationship. Well since that time - I have uncovered different "circumstantial evidence" that gives me reason to suspect they he and the OW may still have some sort of relationship. If he gets angry at me and we have an argument - (9 out 10 re: this stuff) he leaves the house mad and calls the OW and meets her, etc. (I only found this out when OW told me after I caught them having lunch together) - she also told me that they were still sleeping together - however my H admitted the 2 times that he did go meet her - however, he denied the sleeping together. If she is stupid enough to see him - they don't have very much time together - but apparently it is enough for her.<P>My problem is during all this - since discovery - my request has been complete honesty. I don't think my H has went 1 full day with being honest - He still talks to her on his cell phone - there have been 2 occasions of he and she getting cell phones together and him "keeping" it from me; and me finding these things out inadvertently.<P>They met to eat - because she wanted some $$. He won't go through an attorney and have things arranged so that he sends her $X by mail, etc. and gets to see the OC every Fri., etc. He simply thinks it is best if they work this out together. She lives at home with her parents and they basically support the child. She works for "spending" money and to keep up her cigarette habit and cell phone addition.<P>I'm just at my wit's end. I'm tired of the lies, feeling like a fool - but too, am not strong enough to leave my H. He has beat me down so much re: this situation and my general self esteem. I think, how would he ruin our marriage for a 19 yr. old bimbo? He tells me he wants us - and that he wouldn't be with her period if I left him - however she tells me that he keepts telling her that he is simply staying in the marraige for our daughter and that when she gets a little older - he will leave and be with her. I just don't know who to believe - my H tells me that she hates me because he didn't leave me and she will take any opportunikty to tell me stuff to upset me. (but of course he would say that).<P>I've begged him for honesty and told him that is the only way that things will work. He swears that when he tells me the truth - I don't believe him - so he's d_($*&#*)*&$ when he does and d($#((*&(@)*& when he doesn't.<P>I just want my life back - and for whatever reason - he still keeps things from me. I have been unable to a full-fledged Plan A - because some 'crisis" stops me in my tract about a few days into a new Trial Run of Plan A. Please help me!<P>------------------<BR>

I am so very sorry. I wish there were magic words and actions to take away all these pains. Your hurt and pain are so evident. I will be praying for you.<BR>Kris

Daycare:<P>I am so glad you're back so you can get some comfort from the others. It is so sad and disturbing to hear your spouse is still so involved with OW and that he continues to lie and be deceptive.<P>I vote for joining the two of them for lunch and the three of you ask and answer each others'questions -- no holds barred. <BR>Maybe, then you'll get the honest answers you need when the other parties can't lie about what then other is saying because, they are sitting right there!<P>This has gone on for such a long time for you. Maybe you'll gain some strength and insight here.<P>catnip =^^=<P>

I agree with Catnip. That is the only way you will really know the truth. You are really hurting. You deserve the truth, and you deserve to get on with you life, with him, or without him. Being in limbo is not healthy. By the way, if your husband does work things out with you. See a lawyer and get the child support and visitation, set. Otherwise she can come back and get backpay and birthing expenses. If there is no real record of what he is giving her, it will come back to haunt him, and you if your together. Make sure where you live they can't take your wages as back pay if you work. Just words of caution. Your in my prayers. <P>babstr.

Thanks for your words of comfort. I have (several times) tried the "let's all 3 get together and SEE who's lying." Basically she will lie FOR him no matter what - and he lies so I don't know what's going on. Somehow he has convinced her to lie to me and that he will "reward her". It's disgusting. I usually end up feeling like nothing has been accomplished.<P>Last night (again) we had words and he said "I'll talk to Her (OW) whenever I want and as long as I want." I told him that was fine but I couldn't live that way - and it was over under those circumstances. How can he say that to me? (out of anger)? I don't know - I feel myself falling very deeply back into depression. Why is he fighting me on this - because he is so prideful?<P>I'm trying to get into a psychiatrist. And my daughter said last night, "Daddy, talk nice to mommie." It broke my heart.<P>------------------<BR>

DCD:<P>Ugh. It makes me sick that he is mean to you in front of your daughter. Perhaps you should tell him nicely that talking to you in such a disrespectful manner will make her think it's OK for men to talk to her like that someday...that he alone is laying the foundation for a very unhealthy relationship lifestyle for her, and that's not only unfair to your daughter, but, destructive and selfish. Maybe he would be more careful with his words if he thought it would adversely effect your daughter.<P>Maybe it may make him think before he speaks...but, then, with his attitude of "like it or lump it", it sounds as if he knows he's holding all the cards and calling all the shots.<P>DCD, it's time for you to gather strength and apply the prinicples of the Plan A and/or Plan B. Plan A is loving, but, Plan B will shake things up and make things happen and I don't know if you want to or are ready to do that because sometimes things happen that you don't want to happen. Otherwise, you just stay in your holding pattern, in limbo, feeling worse and worse as the days go by.<P>I'm not trying to depress you at all, but, you and I have had several private conversations and I know what's going on with you personally and how badly you feel. You are in so much pain right now and are so hurt and scared, you don't know what to do, so you put up with his attitude because the alternative is just too much for you to deal with right now.<P>I wish there was something we could do for you, some way to give you that push you need to make changes, but, I understand that it's scary and the feelings of insecurity and the distorted view of your self worth is keeping you from doing anything different than what you are doing. I know, because I do the same thing sometimes because of my doubts and insecurities.<P>The only reason why your self worth is at an all time low is because of what you have endured. It is because of the horrible situation...the feeling of being rejected and shoved aside for someone else, the fact that another woman has a child with your spouse, the fact that your spouse is still involved with her on some level...it's all very threatening stuff and so damaging to your own self worth. It gets so distorted because the spouse makes you feel as though you aren't good enough when in reality it's the spouse who is not good enough. I think a lot of what a lot of us feel in this situation is loss of control and desparately wanting to be #1 in our spouses life. That's why we stay and fight for what is rightfully ours sometimes, and because we just can't believe it and want back what we thought we had.<BR> <BR>We are shell-shocked by what has happened, we walk around like the walking wounded all beaten and bloody wondering how this could have happened and want the spouse to come back to us remorseful and desperate to fix the marriage and to be with us.<P>Sometimes we stay in a limbo situation for much longer than we should because we are terrified of the unknown-we don't know what will happen if we make a stand and the unknown is frightening. I wondered if anyone else would ever love me or if it would ever be safe for me to ever love someone again. I had pulled out all the stops for my spouse yet he was capable of doing this to me and to our marriage. Not one of his needs ever went unmet, so I have always been doubly confused how this could have happened to us. <BR>The crisis center, treatment facilities, counsellors, psychiatrists, therapists all say the same thing; that these things never would have happened without his resuming his drinking and his bipolar disorder. That's the only thing I have to hang onto-I feel fortunate in a way I have some kind of a reason for the behavior, albeit weak and not very satisfying. And, I have my doubts.<P>DCD, I know you are a lovely woman. Your confidence is shot and puts you in door mat mode. To get out of this frame of mind, there are things you can do to make changes that are subtle and not threatening to your precarious situation. You can spend more time ON yourself with exercize, beauty shops, clothes, outings with friends. I did all these things. I went to the gym more often, got a perm, had my nails done, bought some clothes...and it bothered my spouse to see me take such an active interest in myself, because, he wondered what I was up to and who I was doing it for. I was doing it for myself, but, in his myopic thinking, he thought I was doing it for someone else or to get someone else. That's how the male mind thinks sometimes. <P>The reaction from my spouse was that he perceived I was becoming more interested and focused on myself rather than on him. They really hate to loose their position on your priority list. Within six weeks my spouse wanted to come home and within two weeks he spoke to the OW for the last time.<P>I'm not saying that this is how it will play out for you because every situation is different, however, I bet anything that he won't like it one little bit if you are suddenly busy with yourself and taking care of you first and acting in a more light and carefree manner, looking great and being busy. I bet it will make him nuts. <BR>He'll suddenly find you mysterious and interesting if you don't give him too much information about what you think and how you feel and id you "act" happy and confident even though you don't really 'feel' that way, it may sparks his interest and keep him around you more and less around her. <P>He likes having the two of you under his thumb. What great control! What a great ego booster for him.<P>Just my take for what it's worth. I just hate seeing you feel so rotten about yourself and going through this for so long.<P>Prayers<P>catnip =^^=<P>

Sorry to hear of your troubles. At least we all now have a place to come and talk about the added pain of OC w/out sifting through the posting related to affair-only issues.<P>The added factor of dealing with spouse's child with affair partner makes recovery many times more difficult because the affair never really fades into the past. It remains "up close and personal" because of the child.<P>Although I am committed to making OC a part of our lives, I refuse to allow H to use the OC as an excuse for contact w/OW. ANYTHING having to do w/OC must be with my full knowledge and participation. Even picking up and dropping off OC for visitation is with me along (although I stay in the car when H goes to the door so I don't have to make face-to-face contact with OW.) Please be VERY careful about H's contact w/OW even though he may say it is "about OC." <P>If he has re-committed to your marriage, the TWO OF YOU should be handling this together. The moment he and OW deal together with OC, you are not dealing with things as a married couple. Make a list of exactly what you are willing to do re:OC and what you will and will not accept as far as contact w/OW. If your H is unwilling to deal with the situation openly WITH YOU IMVOLVED AND PRESENT EVERY STEP OF THE WAY, I think your H may be "talking the talk" but not "walking the walk." This is not what good marriages are about.<P>You are entitled to some special consideration in all of this. Yes, the OC is an innocent victim and should be cared for by all its parents. "Parents" includes you if you and your H intend to remain married. I have wrestled w/this issue to for a long time, and I am committed to doing my best to bring OC in our family and be a good step-mom to her. BUT, I am also committed to standing up for myself and not allowing my H or former lover to do any more damage to my life and family. This is not easy because I have very little self-confidence left. But I know that I am important too, and if they will not treat me respectfully and consider my feelings, I have no responsibility to them.<P>It is NOT selfish to look out for yourself, especially when the person who promised to love, honor, and be faithful to you isn't doing that.<P>Hugs to you.<p>[This message has been edited by anniem (edited May 14, 2000).]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by anniem:<BR><B>Yes, the OC is an innocent victim and should be cared for by all its parents. "Parents" includes you if you and your H intend to remain married. </B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Since my H and I are not working this out, my opinion might not count as much on this subject, but here it goes.<P>When I heard the old "you and your H MUST BE PARENTS together" thing, I started feeling guilty because I believed this and thought I was horrible for not wanting to be around this innocent child. And then I got real.<P>If the marriage is to work, the couple has to be the first priority. The betrayed spouse didn't ask for this. yes, the OC is an innocent bystander, but that doesn't give him/her instant first place position over the betrayed spouse. <P>Whether or not the child is to be a part of the married family's life is a decision the married people need to make together, but that doesnt necessarily mean they HAVE to have the child in their lives. <P>I think it is an individual decision which should be influenced by how it is going to affect the marriage. If the marriage is strong enough to handle it, do it. If it is not, and the partners place more value on that than being parents to a child of betrayal, they have my support in living without out that burden. (That doesn't mean I support skipping out on child support though. Don't want to give that impression).

<BR>popeye,<P>I agree with you 100%. The marriage *must* take precedence over the OC. Its that simple. Only *if* the marriage can sustain involvement with the OC should that be considered. And not every marriage will reach that point.<P>Bystander

You guys are so great and make so much sense! Why is my husband so retarded? I feel the same as far as Popeye and Bystander - My and my H's marriage and our daughter should take precedence over anything! He feels like it is so "unfair" to the OC because he doesn't live with him, etc. etc. I keep telling him that the OW "chose" to have unprotected sex and then Chose" to have the child - (My husband didn't want her to go ahead with the pregnancy). I wanted them to give it up for adoption - I figured that would be the only way for her and for us to have a "life". She in her selfish nature - chose to have the child and to let that be her "crutch" to have contact with my H. We have discussed this issue over and over - even when we're not upset - my H won't budge - he thinks it is IMPOSSIBLE to have a child with someone and never talk to that person. He says "there is nothing going on with her anymore, I can control myself, I'm not an animal - - I don't want her, etc. etc." He doesn't understand that I don't care what he can and cannot do - I think it's unfair for me to have that "threat" (after what happened). After much soul searching I agreed to accept the OC. I have seen him a handful of times- and then the last time that I "caught" my H with OW (eating lunch) yeah - - - she won't let my H have him if he's going to have him around me - can you believe it - and he lets her call the shots. When I mention this to him - that she's calling the shots - he says "if she wants to play her 2 yr. old games, that's fine - I don't care; it's not hurting me." She just turned 22 and her immaturity is showing for sure. It hurts me - because I have fallen in love with this little guy (1 1/2 yr. old) and our daughter (3) adores this little guy - she doesn't know that he's her 1/2 brother - but she does know that my H is his daddy - "weird" - it's like everytime my H is around our daughter he mentions's the OC's name- I think he wants her to love the OC so much that when she's old enough to really understand what happened - she will not be made or hate her father. I don't know - I just know I'm not being appreciated.<P>Every one in my family is like "man, you look too good and have too much going for you to put up with all this crap!" And that is true - I just want my life back - and I'll even include the OC and I could have been decent to the OW - (she use to babysit my daughter and we actually were friendly), but if I knew she didn't want my H I could be civil. My m-i-l even volunteered to be the mediator between her and my H. (See the OW asks her to babysit - lots of times). But my H refuses to do this - he says it is very childish to do that - and that everyone involved is adults that can "control themselves"! Yeah - we see the result of controlling ourselves.<P>Catnip: I'm glad you had a wonderful mother's day - isn't it just "magical" when you feel that same "love" and that closeness again - even for a day? I felt that when we were in Florida for a little while. It made all the heartaches worth it - (for a moment). My mothers' Day - as every other holiday, etc. was met with nothing - no card, no gift - nothing. And he wonders how I think he's not "fully making an effort".<P>Guys, I'm truly disgusted with this whole mess.<P>------------------<BR>

Daycare said: "I just want my life back" -"But my H refuses to do this "<P>Daycare, you know what you need to do. Only you can force those changes now. You know you deserve better.<P>God bless and best wishes,<BR>Jenny

Bystander...again? <P>Why should the marriage take precedence over the child? The marriage should definitely take precedence over relationship good or bad with OW, but the child? What if that child was yours? Would you be so quick to dismiss it? Popeye?<P>The only way I will give up my relationship with my daughter (OC from relationship prior to my W) was if was in her best interest. Not mine or my W's. I will and have gladly given up contact with my duaghter's mother. But not my daughter.<P>DCD's husband is not being very intelligent right now, I believe we spoke about this before DCD? His action can only lead to more heartache with the route he is choosing. At what point will he say to OC's mother "I'm glad I've got my visitation with OC, now I must go and do my visitation with my child from DCD"? That will be the sad point.<P>I think he must find a way to make both relationships healthy, marraige and OC, not OW. But I certainly hope by W never asks me to abandon my D.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

<BR>Paul,<P>I'm reminded of the beer ad, "Paul, I love ya, man!" <P>All kidding aside, your W entered into the marriage with informed consent regarding the pre-existence of the OC. She knew what that meant in terms of financial consequences, having to take on the role as a step-mother, and so on. Further, correct me if I'm wrong, but there was no infidelity involved in bringing your daughter into the world.<P>Contrast this with some of the cases we see in here, where a H impregnates an OW and an OC results. The W later learns of the betrayal, and finds herself in a position where she is suffering economic harm. But she never entered into this arrangement with informed consent. IMO, the moral obligation of the wayward H must be to repair the damage to his marriage, and if the W cannot handle the H seeing the OC, so be it. The H should comply. There is a moral obligation to pay a fair amount in child support, but that ends the obligation.<P>Bystander

Paul - yes we have spoken many times before and I definately understand where you were coming from in your analogy; however, it is off the mark in that - your W KNEW about your OC and married you (in spite of that). This happened 'DURING' our marriage - it was not part of our "deal", otherwise I don't think I'm the kind of person that could marry someone with another child 'existing' - maybe I'm wrong (given that I have opened up to the thought in my situation). My H is not putting our marriage first and is still having some type of relationship with OW (behind my back). That is what is so bad - is it simply for the OC? as husband professes or is it behind my back for a reason (?) I don't know - so therefore if our marriage is to get any kind of jump-start - then he can leave OW and OC out of it for a while and then gradually let me be the contact with OW - (so what if she doesn't like it) she 'says' that she only wants what's best for her son - yeah right - that's why she won't let my H take him home now - because she doesn't want him to be around me! ha - that's a joke - I told her "well, you know, I asked you to leave my H alone and you wouldn't so - touche'."<P>------------------<BR>

Bystander <P> I agree that H needs to fix marriage first and foremost and I agree DCD that yours is not. I disagree that the OC should be cut off entirely for any reason. If this is the case then something is wrong with one or more of the parties involved. Selfishness, misunderstanding, stubbornness, or plain ignorance. This could come from any of the parties...any...or more than one in this case. DCD seems to be trying and H and OW are not.<P>Yes, my W entered into our marriage with the knowledge, but in her defense she did not know the "problems" that came with it. At the time my ex-girlfriend wouldn't let me see my D and did not want me to have any part of it at all, including child support. All that came very rapidly later. My W was / is not happy but is dealing very well. And I love her for it.<P> Again, DCD's H is not on the right track. But I don't think cutting OC out of picture entirely is the answer either.<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Paul:<P>Wow. While I am impressed with your immense generosity and your tenderness towards your new son, there is no way I will ever be as evolved as you are.<P>I completely agree with Bystander and Popeye, and our priest at Retrouvaille who told my husband and me that our first and foremost responsibility was to each other--that a marriage cannot survive unless the couple make a commitment to eachother that supersedes any other relationship, including children. The marriage should come before the children-always.<P>If you want to call me selfish and stubborn and all those other things, that's fine, but, be sure to include heartbroken, griefstricken, empty and hollow.<BR> <BR>The only really selfish person in my situation, aside from my WS, is the XOW who kept a child she could not care for and who she knew would be deprived of a dad. It is not my inclination to have a relationship with the OC. I am not healed enough to even consider that option. I don't know if I ever will be. At any rate, it's MY call. <P>I appreciate your feelings of what you feel we should do in regards to the OC. However, we all have our opinions as to how we see things and what will work in our marriages, as do you.<P>I respect your feelings and truly wish I could be more like you, but I am not and probably never will be. And, oh, how I love babies. It should have been mine. I wish it were.<P>Regards<P>Catnip =^^=

Catnip

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Paul Moyers:<BR><B>Why should the marriage take precedence over the child? .. What if that child was yours? Would you be so quick to dismiss it? Popeye?<BR></B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Well, since I don't have any children out of wedlock or any children with a man who didn't want them or couldn't be an involved father, I can honestly say that this would not be my child. I value my children too much to make such a selfish choice.<P>Could I turn my back on my children? Never. My commitment to my family extends primarily to the children I purposely create and the H I purposely married and chose to be their father. All other relationships MUST be secondary if they are to be at all.<P>My father has 2 illegitimate children by two different women in two different marriages. The (legitimate) siblings (including myself) have been very supportive of the OCs and have been very compassionate towards their situation. We try to include them in everything (one is 14, one is 22). It's not their fault. I recognize this and live it. <P>BUT I have seen the absolute devastation this has cause to my mother and his current wife (as well as the OCs). The relationships are not the same. <P>My relationships with my in-laws have always been rocky. This has caused problems, but those family relationships are also secondary to the marriage.<P>I believe that when this XOW created a child with my H, that child became a part of MY family too. As part of my family, I have a responsibility towards her. That doesn't necessarily include having her in my life and home. There are many family relationships that just are not healthy, so we do what we can to honor our obligations and get on with life the best we can. <P>Family is family is family is family. You can't escape that, but not all relationships have equal importance. The couple is the backbone of the family. Once you start putting your children, mother, OC, or whomever in a place of greater importance, that relationship suffers. <P>There is a place for everyone. I just don't ever think it should compete for dominance over the relationship of the couple or threaten it. <P>If the threat were the in-laws, the in-laws need to be distanced. If it were a sister who was flirting with the H, the sister needs to be removed. Just because the OC is innocent of how he/she got her, she doesn't deserve superior status. Her mother knowingly brought her into the world into a crippled family situation. It's wrong to expect everyone to accomodate her and her child just because it is a child.<P>I don't presume to dictate the way it is done or should be done in other people's lives. This is just how I feel and respect the decisions the couple makes in their own situation.

You Go Girl - Popeye! That is simply the facts - the Marriage has to be the 1st concern - that is what Harley teaches. You're absolutely right - the selfish actions of my H and the XOW - (in my situation) is the reason the OC was born the way he was and into the life he has - but also - it's the only life he knows - he doesn't know about having a mom and dad living together, etc. He is loved and is content and very well adjusted - regardless if my H had a relationship wtih him or not - What about all the children created by sperm donors, etc.? They are technically the "biological" father - yet they don't have a relationship with these OC. To me it is the same difference - my H was simply a sperm donor for this child - I agree that this OC is innocent - BUT, so am I and especially SO IS MY DAUGHTER - she deserves the life that was promised to her - a happy family with mom and dad together (which is all she has known). She is just as innocent a victim (and even more so in my book) because she is the child of our union!<P>Sorry to get so hot about this - but it is a touchy subject.<P>------------------<BR>

Well said Popeye, well said.<P>I guess it all comes down to personal convictions. If on the operating table the situation arises where a Dr must choose between saving the mother or the child, nine times out of ten they save the mother. Reason: She can have more children.<P>I can't say that I have always felt the way I have. I have seen and felt as some of the others here. Thankfully God has given me both the W and heart to accept OC. My W did not accept OC at first either. And I guess if I look back there were times in which I probably could have lost her for it. Can we strengthen a marriage with the end goal to have OC included? Does OC have to be cut off altogether for a marriage to survive? I guess for some it does.<P>DCD, In my opinion it is your H and XOW that is causing your resentment towards the OC and not the OC itself. This is what's sad. I'm sure if your H did things right (present) then the OC could be weaved into the family in some fashion. He risks the resentment of one of his kids to try to prevent the resentment of another? I don't think so. I think it's still about him and OW. If and when that is gone I hope that your "family" can grow to accept OC. Till then do what you must.<P>Good Luck and God Bless<P>------------------<BR>1Co:2:4: And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:<BR>1Co:2:5: That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.