</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's disgusting. You do live in the States, right?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Yes, I live in the US. That flag has been out there for over a year. It was a little one we got for the kids, not a certified Am flag.

This really saddens me because I have been thinking for a long time of flying a certified flag (or whatever it's called...one that has to be burned if it should ever touch the ground), but not in this neighborhood. I'm proud that my father is a veteran, and my H's grandfather who just died was a veteran, as is my grandfather.

If H's grandmother displays her US gov't issue flag she received upon Gpa's death, would someone steal it? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I hope not.

Wthaidhy you said:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Seems that whoever did it feels that free speech is ok as long as it agrees with their opinion.
So how come you are bashing Aeri for having a different opinion? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, funny thing I found on another site:

By Susan Wise Bauer
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Everyone has a right to their private opinion.

Those who publish their opinions had better be able to back up their assertions with logic and authoritative citations.

Those who publish uninformed opinions SHOULD be criticized--although with an eye to improving the opinion and reaching greater understanding, NOT with an eye to ripping the argument to shreds for the fun of it.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think Aeri is entitled to her opinion, and as I said, I just disagree with it. I have offered my opinion, as she has hers, hoping that we can make heads or tails of this situation, trying help each other see more clearly.

However, when one chooses not to see, they face criticism (not saying this of Aeri, just pointing out a fact, as I have no knowledge what Aeri is thinking, other than what she posts). So do spouses. In fact, the damage done by spouses who refuse to see is greater than this discussion has done. I agree with you though that we should practice here the efforts we are making at home.

Included in the efforts at home are boundaries; in MB language, that is Plan B. But we need boundaries besides.

Zorweb said that we are one with our gov'ts. I say, "Yes and no." Yes, because we are parts of a whole, which can be likened to Christ and the Church, for those who are Christians, or the human body. However, I do think differently from my government because it is also influenced by people who think differently from me...much like marriage. It's a checks and balances sort of thing, and helps us balance things out.

Aeri's POV is important because it does cause us to look a little closer. But that's also what makes our POV's important because it causes those outside of this country to look at the issues a bit more closely.

However, if we are considered to be a bunch of numbskulls with drool constantly dangling from our mouths, then we will not be considered a knowledgeable source. That's a crying shame.

We are intelligent people. We are logical people. And when we argue with our intellect and logic, we are considered "bashing" other people.

About freedom of speech...there are limits that will be enforced if the wrong thing is said. Someone calls me a sl*t or b*tch, there will be a consequence. Words are powerful things. Lies, spoken with the mouth or written on paper, have gotten innocent people killed.

I'm just saying, speak truth. If it's what you believe, fine, but don't break the law or disrespect other people, and be considerate enough to actually *hear* the other POV.

Yeah, today is a sad day in the world. A lot of people on both sides of this war have died. I am concerned for the troops who have been taken prisoner and their families, and for the families of Iraqis who've died.

Do I think Am military lives are more valuable than Iraqi lives? Absolutely not, and I am PROUD of the marines who have given their own lives to help bring peace...true peace...to Iraq. Even if the gov't has deceived the people and the troops, the troops are giving their lives for an honorable, noble, and life-affirming cause--to give Iraq back to the Iraqi people, so they no longer have to live in fear of starvation, of being raped or murdered, or turned into science projects of the gov't as the Jews of the Holocaust were.

Petals

Zuzus

Zorweb said that we are one with our gov'ts. I say, "Yes and no."

You are right in your comment on this. My point is that in the end we all have responsibility for our government. I did not mean to imply by any means that we all agree or stand by everything our government does. Not by a long shot. But when on throw broad sweeps of accusations and at an entire country in the manner that has been done, it cannot be said that they are only bashing a governmental entity and not the people. IMHO anyway. This is the problem with words and why they can cause problems so often. It’s hard to say things in a way that everyone will take them the way we mean them. Each of us has a different filter through which we sift words.

wthaidhy

Back to MB, if you want to build a healthy marriage relationship you NEVER attack your spouse.

If you want to build a healthy international relationship you NEVER attack another country. It’s as simple as sticking to a principle; no matter how justified you’d be to do otherwise.

If a country wants to build healthy international relationships than they should have never sold items of war to Iraq after the 1990 war. Do recall that France, Germany, Canada and many other countries were part of that coalition. There was a ceasefire and Iraq agreed to disarm. Instead they continued to build their military abilities in some areas with the help of France, Germany, Russia, Ukraine, and I think China and North Korea too.

So tell me, how concerned were those countries in maintaining good relationships with other countries, especially the USA? Their actions of providing these things to Iraq is a very clear statement of “money is more important that our international relationships”.

Those who are giving the USA a hard time over not wooing and kowtowing to these countries, why are you not also giving these countries a serious lashing for what they have done?

Or is it that the USA needs to be very careful not to get anyone angry with us, while the rest of the world can do as they please?

I’ve already asked several times why is the USA the only country expect to seek UN approval to start a war?

I am having a problem with the duplicity in all of this.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aeri:
<strong>Just as every other great power that has desired to take control of the world, the United States will fall....I don't want to see it happen, but it seems like a whole new Roman empire to me....</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">The US isn't trying to take over the world! We don't need any more states (there are small countries who WANT to be but we aren't accepting applications, so to say). The US is trying to make life better IN other countries, not make life better and EXPAND ours. There is a HUGE difference between the US's motives and the Roman Empire's. Besides, when the US WAS expanding their borders, didn't we BUY it from France? We didn't go to war and win it, we paid for it.

Amanda

I have been thinking for a long time of flying a certified flag (or whatever it's called...one that has to be burned if it should ever touch the ground)
Can’t say I’ve ever heard of anything like this (Certified flag or only “certain” flags can be burned]. Any American flag that has touched the ground or is no longer in good shape should be destroyed in a proper manner.

Check out Flag Etiquette

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 04:20 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

Just as every other great power that has desired to take control of the world, the United States will fall....I
Quiz of the day...

Name one country the U.S. has taken control of and now runs?

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris (CA123):
<strong>Name one country the U.S. has taken control of and now runs?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, I could open a can of worms and say that early America annexed much of what is now the USA from Native-Americans. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have been doing battle within myself on how to respond. I think in a time like this one has to be cautious about the words they use.

I fully support our military, and I fully support my president, I always will, no matter who that president is. Once the election has taken place, then the respect due the president is fully given by me. I do not have all of the intel info that our government and military have, they have the training to handle situations such as this and to make decisions such as this, I have none. I trust that they have good intentions and fully believe in what they are doing, right or wrong, that is their job not mine. They will answer to a higherpower if wrong, not me. The will also answer to a war crimes council if they are thought to be wrong, again that is not my job.

My big question though is this...

When do we as a nation say no to another n ation in need of our help and support?

Mexico has stock market and money problems, we GIVE them money to pull them out of it, not once, but I believe it was TWICE in recent years.

Bosnia, they ask for help, we give it.

Saudi Arabia, they need help, ask, we give it.

Kosovo, need help, we give.

the list goes on.

Yes we have played a part in all the big wars, and many of the small ones. Did we go into Germany or France when helping them and try to make their lives different or make them become a part of our country? hmmmm, doesn't look like it. We LIBERATED them for dictators and their countries are better for it.

I trust that our leaders have the knowledge needed to make the best decisions, not just for us, but for those who need our help.

If Canada were in toruble and needed our help we would be there. Same with France, Germany, etc.

Of course, helping ANY country always gets us blamed for something.

I often wonder what the rest of the world would do if we started saying NO to EVERY request for aide or assistance.

It would definately save us a bunch of money, and many lives over the years if we did say no.

Who will be paying for the rebuilding of Iraq when this is over? It won't be Iraq alone, we will be doing much to support and aide them in the rebuilding and help in making them a better nation.

We are a strong nation, and while I think our military could be treated better, at least our troops are FED and have CLOTHING and SHOES. Many of the Iraqis that surrendered were malnourished and without shoes and were not fully clothed. We, the big bad meanies we are will give them clothing and shoes and food. We will not treat them in a poor way. We do try to abide by the Geneva convention on the treatment of POW's. We would never go against the rules of war engagement and send people in to surrender then have them turn around and ambush them.

As much as it does and always has hit me as kind of funny that there are RULES for war, there really are. We abide them, our leaders have studied them, and we are up against a mad mans army that disregrads it all.

We are doing our best to only hit military targets, and now this madman is dragging women and children of his country into the military sites to use them as human shields. IS that really something that a reasonable leader would do??? Would you want this man leading YOUR country? For that matter, had he gone into exile would you have been comfortable with your country allowing him to live in YOUR country? Wiffty posted this on another thread...
http://abcnews.go.com/sections/nightline/World/saddam_profiler_030225.html

There are many anti-war and anti-american protests going on world wide, many here in our own country. I would be interested in hearing where the money has come from for these demonstrations. There are many costs involved in staging a demonstration. Any idea where we can find out who is paying for it all? I have to wonder if the money trail were followed how much is being provided by groups that have ties to terrorists. That is just my odd wonderings though. Have not heard anything to suggest it. I firmly believe that demonstrators should be peaceful in their gatherings, it just seems stupid for people to stand out there and holler about no war, etc and yet they get all riled up and end up arrested for breaking laws, harming others etc.

Aeri, can you please tell me how you came to the conclusion that when someone immagrates to the US that they have to leave their culture at the border? I would be really interested in whatever information you have that backs that up.

Oh, and the latest tally on nations in the coalition is 52.

Ok..so I lied about the last word...... It's been a boring weekend for ol'Aeri. That's probably why I decided to venture into this territory in the first place.....

FIRST of all, for all of you who are second guessing me---I didn't for one second judge the American people. Not once did I imply that they're stupid or 'drooling'. I think I mentioned that more than once. I simply brought forth my own opinion.

For those of you who say that I should be criticized because I refuse to 'see'. Well, from my perspective, YOU refuse to 'see'.

I'm sorry, I was mistaken--the US didn't break any UN resolutions when invading IRAQ, they just plainly defied the UN. If we REQUIRE the UN, and it is considered relevant, then there should be a punishment for going against them, don't you agree? Wouldn't the United States have expected the UN to punish China had they decided to invade the US? Don't think it can't happen--they've been building their army for years.

As far as the 40 nations which support the US are concerned---where were they when the UN voted on the invasion? Are they even UN nations? WHO ARE THEY? Could one of these nations be Pakistan? The newest US ally? The same country that REPEATEDLY tests it's nuclear weapons?

I'm sorry that people are stealing flags---that's terrible. I'm not against Patriotism--I believe you should have the freedom to fly your flag. By posting a sign in the window though, you're inviting strife with your neighbour. Perhaps a better idea would be to make it inaccessible.

Countries that lack freedom are a sad fact----BUT THERE ARE MANY OF THEM.....Why is the US picking on Iraq? There are DIMINISHED freedoms in Qatar as well--why is it a US ally and NOT being bombed? There are terrible inequalities and lack of freedoms in Pakistan, yet the US was quick to befriend them during the attack on Afganistan. Seems like the US government picks and chooses it's battles with no rhyme or reason. Last I heard, Osama may have been in Pakistan--so are there plans to bomb them soon?

As far as the US not WANTING to expand it's borders. Are you suggesting that the US wouldn't want full control of middle eastern oil? Surely, there are little countries wanting to be part of the US, but I'm guessing that they have absolutely NOTHING to offer the US in exchange for their inclusion...

I want to make it very clear...I feel very badly for anyone with family members in Iraq. When I hear about downed planes and dead soldiers, I feel absolutely horrible about the senseless loss of life....but Iraq is patriotic just as the US is. Their military are simply defending their nation under attack. Would you expect any less from the US?

Two wrongs don't make a right--bombing Iraq will NOT halt terrorism. Iraq is one muslim nation---and by bombing them, you're guaranteeing that other muslim nations will grow to HATE the US. THIS is not the way to calm international relations.

...and I write this as I watch the photos of POWs in Iraq. It's amazing how people are so SHOCKED and AWED at this.. POWs are a fact of war--get used to it.

Hi Everyone,

Today has been a bad day for the world. People have killed one another.

In the most terrible of ways.

I know this war is a bad deal but it beats being fed into a wood chipper feet first or raped multiple times only to have your throat slowly slit once they're done with you.

Saddam MUST GO!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by aeri:
<strong>If we REQUIRE the UN, and it is considered relevant, then there should be a punishment for going against them, don't you agree? Wouldn't the United States have expected the UN to punish China had they decided to invade the US? Don't think it can't happen--they've been building their army for years.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

The UN does a lot of good with it's humanitarian programs. But it can't really impose it's will on the States or any other country because each soverign country basically should be able to make their own decisions

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>As far as the 40 nations which support the US are concerned---where were they when the UN voted on the invasion? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

It never was taken to a vote because a couple of security council countries with veto votes threatened to veto the resolution.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Countries that lack freedom are a sad fact----BUT THERE ARE MANY OF THEM.....Why is the US picking on Iraq? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

When President Bush spoke before the special joint session of Congress shortly after Sept 11, he said that he intended to go after terrorists and any nation that offers them safe haven.

There is little doubt that Saddam is a terrorist and that he harbours terrorists. He was offering financial rewards to the families of suicide bombers.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><strong>Two wrongs don't make a right--bombing Iraq will NOT halt terrorism. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong>

Libya used to use terrorism against the US until President Reagan beat the crap out of them. Now you almost never hear about Quaddafi anymore.

Jen,
Don't know where you're from , I'm American.
I am not superior to ANYONE!

GEEZ!

GEEZ!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I'm sorry, I was mistaken--the US didn't break any UN resolutions when invading IRAQ, they just plainly defied the UN. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No they did not defy the UN. In my opinion they are merely keeping their word. The US is carrying out the provisions of UN resolution "Adopted as Resolution 1441 at Security Council meeting 4644, 8 November 2002. Surely you cannot deny that it has been a game of "you'll come in -- No, you'll get out" for twelve years.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recognizing the threat Iraq’s non-compliance with Council resolutions and proliferation of weapons of mass destruction and long-range missiles poses to international peace and security,
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Recalls, in that context, that the Council has repeatedly warned Iraq that it will face serious consequences as a result of its continued violations of its obligations; </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Jen,

Now there is a discussion packed with relevance and insight. I’m sure that you have convinced many by all you brought to the table.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Jen,

I'm sorry that you feel we think we're superior. We have superior defenses and such, and many of us feel we have a wonderful system of gov't under which to live.

This has absolutely nothing to do with being "superior." I can see how brandishing our might, might lead you think that, but the fact is that it's just not that way in many of our minds.

We are a benevolent society. If that makes us "goody-goodies," I'm sorry. That just makes us feel that we are sharing our blessings with others.

If someone gives food to the poor, and protects them from harm, are they acting out of superiority, or love?

Whether I'm deceived or not, I do feel that's what this country is about and support any of it's actions to fulfill that commission.

Petals

I'm thinking it may be time to have a moderator close this thread.

I didn't intend that anyone get hurt feelings from this. I just wanted to express my anger at some who were abusing their freedom of speech, and support for our troops, and sorry for the loss of life.

I have learned a lot from this thread.

Anyone think it's time to close it? If someone has something peaceable to say, I want to offer that opportunity. If there are more stabs at ANYone, American or otherwise, it's definitely time to close it.

Petals

Let's see if I have this correct. 2 posts (won't call names you can figure it out.

One endorsing porn and one Anti-American, anti-your own country. Is there anything you do like other than porn?

Jen ---

O subtle child of few words, how sad you are.

I'm an American - one of those 'breeds' of many nations who resound the demands of freedoms. My heritage here runs deep! I'm Cherokee Indian on my father's side, as well as English, Dutch, Irish, and Swede. On my mother's side, I'm English, Dutch, Irish, Scotch, Welsh, French, and way back about ten generations I have a Russian grandfather. I have friends of many nationalities, and many of them are still in their homeland countries. I don't consider myself BETTER than any other person - decended of Adam who walks the Earth. I, as do others who live all over the earth, have a heritage. Mine happens to be filled with a variety of national backgrounds and history that reads like a good novel (I know, I've researched and written much of that history). I have relatives who've fought for the freedom we Americans' now have - not single handedly, but as part of the many armies that have protected our lands from those who would take it from us. They have fought for freedom for people in other nations. They fought in WWI, WWII, Korea, Vietnam, the Gulf War, and many other wars and police actions around the world.

Are we better than others, no. We happen to have had a taste of freedom and we WANT IT BACK. We know the luxury of having freedom of choice. We've known the luxury of walking our family and friends out to the plane door and watching them wave to us from the window of the plane. We've known the joy of taking midnight strolls along our neighborhood streets and feeling free and safe to do so. We've felt the wonder of watching our children play - safely in our yards, parks, and playgrounds.

On 911 we knew the terror of having someone outside our nation take control of an airplane and fly it into a tower that for the US was an icon of opportunity. WE lost freedoms that day that we are determined to regain!

AS stated before, if you are not for freedom, you are against it. Step out of the way. Because we are taking back what was taken from us.

At this point you are dealing with the organized reasonable power of a NATIONAL LEADER who understands that we as a NATION expect regain those freedoms... Woe is the man who comes against the people of this nation who are not part of that organized power.

Thanks for the soap box.

Jan