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Slappy,
Well, I could open a can of worms and say that early America annexed much of what is now the USA from Native-Americans.
Then I could rebut with, “that wasn’t Americans. It was the English, who later became Americans!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Chris (CA123):
<strong>Then I could rebut with, “that wasn’t Americans. It was the English, who later became Americans!” <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then:
The US purchases the Louisiana Territory from France-- the territory clear through the Midwest & plains states--the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas.

Spain had Texas, California, parts of New Mexico, Arizona.

Russia had Alaska.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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I'm sorry, I was mistaken--the US didn't break any UN resolutions when invading IRAQ, they just plainly defied the UN.
How did they defy the U.N.? What did the U.N. as an assembly say that the U.S. went against?

As far as the 40 nations which support the US are concerned---where were they when the UN voted on the invasion?
The U.N. never voted on the invasion. But they did agree (even Iraq agreed to it) previously to this;
“Recalling that its resolution 678 (1990) authorized Member States to use all necessary means to uphold and implement its resolution 660 (1990) of 2 August 1990 and all relevant resolutions subsequent to resolution 660 (1990) and to restore international peace and security in the area,“
Sorry if you don’t like it or agree with it. Iraq did.

Are they even UN nations? WHO ARE THEY?
Afghanistan*, Albania*, Australia*, Azerbaijan*, Bulgaria*, Colombia*, Czech Republic*, Denmark*, El Salvador*, Eritrea*, Estonia*, Ethiopia*, Georgia*, Hungary*, Italy*, Japan* (post conflict), South Korea, Latvia*, Lithuania*, Macedonia, Netherlands*, Nicaragua*, Philippines*, Poland*, Romania*, Slovakia*, Spain*, Turkey*, Britain*, Uzbekistan*.
*= Member state of U.N.

These are the countries that PUBLICLY support the U.S. Other countries including Germany, Spain, USSR, Netherlands, Norway are sending non-combatants (hospital ships, mine-sweepers, chemical specialists, etc.)

These are the one PUBLICLY supporting the invasion. There are others that are not public about support. Notice there are no Arab/Muslim countries in immediate area supporting it, including Kuwait & Saudi Arabia. Probably because they want to be sure that Saddam will NOT remain in power before they jump on the bandwagon. Can’t blame them at all for feeling this way.

Could one of these nations be Pakistan? The newest US ally?
Not on the list that the U.S. Sate Dept released on 18 March. I wouldn’t call them the “newest” ally. We have been friendly with Pakistan for many, many years.

The same country that REPEATEDLY tests it's nuclear weapons?
But you make it sound like the 5 times they have tested nuclear weapons is something they do constantly. Again, only 5 tests have been done by Pakistan.

By posting a sign in the window though, you're inviting strife with your neighbour.
After all this is America we are talking about. Strife, perhaps, but she is NOT inviting criminal actions.

Perhaps a better idea would be to make it inaccessible.
It’s her property and something her kids (and her) are proud to display. Why should they NOT be allowed to do it as they see fit, if it is legal and acceptable to the general public?

Countries that lack freedom are a sad fact----BUT THERE ARE MANY OF THEM
And you’ll notice quite a few that previously were ruled by dictators/iron fist govts. on the list above.

Why is the US picking on Iraq? There are DIMINISHED freedoms in Qatar as well--why is it a US ally and NOT being bombed? There are terrible inequalities and lack of freedoms in Pakistan, yet the US was quick to befriend them during the attack on Afganistan.
The U.S. is not attacking Iraq because of “terrible inequalities and lack of freedoms.” The government of Iraq is a threat to the peace and freedom of the world, not only of their of their own nation.
The government of Qatar does not support terrorism nor do they murder their own citizens by the thousands simply to test chemical weapons.

Surely, there are little countries wanting to be part of the US, but I'm guessing that they have absolutely NOTHING to offer the US in exchange for their inclusion...
Are you suggesting the U.S. would sell a statehood to a country that had something to offer?

but Iraq is patriotic just as the US is. Their military are simply defending their nation under attack.
But the U.S. is not attacking the nation. They are driving by all the Iraqi troops. If there is resistance they will fight back. Why isn’t there much resistance? Because they don’t want to fight but Hussein will shoot them if they don’t at least stand there and look military. If Iran was to attack, I believe you would see every single Iraqi stand up and fight to the death.

Two wrongs don't make a right--bombing Iraq will NOT halt terrorism.
Why do you think this is solely about terrorism. It is perhaps a bonus, but it is about disarming a nation that agreed ANYTHING could be done to assure disarmament.

Iraq is one muslim nation---and by bombing them, you're guaranteeing that other muslim nations will grow to HATE the US.
How? It doesn’t matter to the U.S. if they are muslim.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 05:47 PM: Message edited by: Chris (CA123) ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Lor (Lor):
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well, then:
The US purchases the Louisiana Territory from France-- the territory clear through the Midwest & plains states--the Dakotas, Nebraska, Kansas.

Spain had Texas, California, parts of New Mexico, Arizona.

Russia had Alaska.

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And they all got the land from?
<img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

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In New England, yes, but not in the rest of the country.

Slappy is right, the USA had the policy of “Manifest Destiny”. It was the belief that it was destiny that the USA would stretch from the Atlantic to the Pacific. This was accomplished by many means. Some land was purchased:

--- The Louisiana Land Purchase from France as Napoleon needed the money to fight his war with the English.

-- Alaska, a then ‘worthless’ frozen land, was sold the USA by Russia.

--- Mexican American War won Texas, Arizona, New Mexico and California.

--- In addition the USA has four territories: Marshall Islands and Samoa from WWII, US Virgin Islands and Puerto Rico from Spanish American War – 1890 something.

Of course there was the pesky problem of the American Indians who still lived in these lands claimed by France, Spain and Russia. So there was there was a lot of fighting that went on with the Indians.

Let’s remember that until very recently territorial issues in this world were usually settled by war. The USA did not invent it, nor it’s use as a tool.

There were the great wars spoken of in the Bible and the Koran.

There was the Mongolian horde lead by Genghis Khan, the Vikings and on and on. They swept over large territories fighting, raping, pillaging. But they never really tried to rule the people.
Every great nation/empire/whatever has used it to conquer large territories: China, Greece, Rome, Spain, France, England and so forth.

I’m sure that there are many that we no longer have any records of.

These conquering empires tried to rule all lands that they conquered. My bet is that in the end that was a large part of their down fall. They spread themselves too thin and the peoples they conquered did not love them (for the most part).
Let’s not forget that Viet Nam was started by the Vietnamese fighting against their colonial rulers.. France. (The USA entered the war only after the French left, at the hest of the South Vietnamese.)

Except for the lands that are now the United States and its territories, the USA has chosen not to keep and govern the many countries it has liberated. Instead the USA has always sought to get the countries back on a peaceful footing with a good economy and let the locals govern themselves. No the picture of a evil empire attempting to control the world… hardly.

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I just checked this out, and this thread has precisely (well, I'm not sure just how precise it is) 28,463 words and 65 pages in Word.

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 06:53 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

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Hey Chris,
I was supporting you...that it wasn't the Americans, but English, plus other European conquering nations that first encroached against the tribal nations that inhabited the US.

Nevermind <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

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I found some interesting testimonies from former human shields and Iraqi citizens:

Telegraph

UPI

Guardian

<small>[ March 23, 2003, 07:30 PM: Message edited by: Crayongirl ]</small>

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Some of the words here explain very clearly why so many are having problems in their relationships at home.

Rude comments, name calling, attitudes... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

How is this helping us? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

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I know Lor. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Just having a bit o’ fun!

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Chris,

About Old Glory, I thought that the flag had to be sewn and embroidered in order to be a "true" flag. I don't consider those plastic things we got as kids that would never stay on the stick as a "true" flag. I mean, you'd have 'em five minutes and they'd fall on the ground...would you have to burn them 5 min after you got it?

I am wearing one of those Old Navy $5 tees right now that has a flag on it, but gov't regulation says that the flag shall not be used in any advertisement in any form.

Anyway, I meant one that I would treat as a "true" flag. But I suppose I should've treated the one that was taken as one. Perhaps the person who took it was angry that we weren't obeying the regulations. I know where H works, they have gotten plenty of flack, and they way they were flying the flag was correct. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Anyway, I checked out that site and others. Thanks for posting it. But, if you could answer my question about the plastic ones, that might save me grief in the future should I come to a time of having to decide whether or not to get one, worrying about it hitting the ground. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

Petals

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Hi Zuzu's Petals! Thank you for posting this. I am a Disabled Veteran of the first Gulf War - so I'm calling this conflict "Operation Desert Storm II" - it is a 'finishing up' of what they would NOT let us do the first time. However, let me tell you, I did him worse damage than he did to me. We trashed over 200 of his fine armored vehicles, took over 300 EPWs (Enemy Prisoners Of War) and totally obliterated a Brigade of Tanks. I personally blew up one of his Water Supply Tanks as well as a Field Mess Kitchen.
Saddam - you are finished.
So, OK, I have the Persian Gulf Illness. I look at this War as unfinished business and we have the finest military in the world to do the job. The Brits are a fine ally - one I'm proud to have served with also, in Operation Joint Endeavour in '95 to '96. The Australians are good too - and I think all the 'coalition of the willing' are a bunch of gutless nations who are jumping on the wagon because they have nothing to lose now... As usual, it's the US & England to take the lead...
One of these days, perhaps our Elected Leaders will wake up and tell the rest of the folks (like Germany, Russia, France, Iran, Turkey, Canada, Mexico, etc. etc. etc) to go take a long walk off a short pier!
I remain, SGT Harold Thornburg, US Army (Retired)
Thank you!
God Bless America - and every single military person in the Gulf right now while He's at it.

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McDonalds got nailed a few years ago in some muslim country because they put verses of the Koran/Qur'an on the hamburger wrappers and the wrappers eventually get tossed into the trash. So it is like throwing the word of god in the trash.

In my humble opinion, the U.S. public treats the flag the same way way in the U.S. The T-shirts, the towels you sit on and wipe your a$$ after a shower, the hats, the advertisements, etc. People want to show their patriotism (great) but they end up disrespecting the flag.

The little plastic flags? A flag is a flag. Send ‘em to the American Legion, I guess?

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What is 'The Kingdom of Caerlon' ?????

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It's back... Kool

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A few weeks after 9/11, there was some big company (don’t remember which) that told all the employees to take down the flags on their desks which had sprung up because the company was afraid they would make some people feel that their own countries/religions were less than American.

This was widely publicized and a really big stink. It was withdrawn soon after because it was a really stupid rule & the company was getting a LOT of flack in the national press.

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Okay, Chris,

From now on, I will refuse the little plastic flags, so I don't have to burn them, or give them to the Am Legion, 2 min after I get them.

I will buy only the finely sewn ones because then I will know how to treat it. I won't buy anymore flag t-shirts. I will be kind to the flag to which I make my children, who are proud to do so, pledge their allegiagce.

Now, to the rest of you still with us...who's here btw?

Do you think the same will happen to the Oscars thread? What has that to do with EN's?

Petals

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Okay, that last comment was nothing against Murphy and the other mods. I was just asking.

I think Murphy handled this well and s/he sent me an email telling exactly what his/her plans were...because I asked him/her to let me know.

NoteBookDude,

Excellent stuff. Thank you for sharing. (That is this thread right? I'm feeling kinda loopy right now.)

Petals

<small>[ March 24, 2003, 07:42 PM: Message edited by: Zuzus_Petals ]</small>

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I posted, on the Oscars thread, something that I found interesting. Received it in an email.

You know, some thing hit me today. Thinking of the POW's and the guy's whose bodies were shown on Arab TV. Those soldiers are over there because they are willing to take the bullets and God only knows what so that we don't have to do it.

I’ve been around the military much of my life.

My father fought in WWII and was on the Batan Death March in the Philippines. He was a POW for 3.5 years. He stayed in the service 25 years, and then went to work for an agency I won’t name. He was murdered (assassinated is really a better word) while on duty.

My husband served in Viet Nam. Then stayed in afterwards. He served much of his time on the boarder between East and West Germany. (Today one of his very special possession is a piece of the Berlin wall. I put it in a shadow box with a photo people taking down the wall handful of crumbly plaster by handful. But really the dismantling of that wall started years before anyone started to chip away at the physical wall.

I served in the Army for 4 years. Right after Viet Nam… So I never fought a battle with weapons. I was in G2 (Intelligence) in Europe. I saw a lot of what we now call terrorism. One thing I notices about every single terrorist we had a rap sheet on, every last one of them was a criminal before they ever had a political opinion. Then some political group would recruit them to a life of crime with a cause… to disrupt life, to hate the system (no matter what the system was).

I’ve mentioned a few times here what my childhood was like because it seems that my dad was very often stationed in a country about to explode in a revolution. So I’ve seen the thing terrorists do first hand. I’ve felt the very real terror of it as a child, taking my turn to guard our family compound. I was pretty good with a rifle and a 30.6 as a child. One of the reasons I have such strong feelings about our men and women fighting this war is that sometimes war is the only way to arrive at peace.

The treat of terrorism is real. The treat of Saddam’s regime supporting terrorists is real. But even if Saddam was not supporting terrorists and not making weapons of mass destruction I’d support going in after him. Why? Because he, his sons and his regime are some of the most despicable humans who have ever walked this earth. I hate to even call them humans.

Sometimes I think that the reason we have never been sure that Hitler died is because he did not. He was the devil incarnate. He just faded away to come back as the next despicable leader. A leader that leads other humans down the road of tyranny.. Actually just plain murderer, rapist, torturer, etc. The hells must be very busy this century, as we certainly have seen our share of such.

Sure there are many other countries that are as bad or worse than Iraq… China and North Korea come to mind. I know that some say it’s just not our job. (He only kills and tortures his own people, it’s no our business.). They say that we cannot be the policemen of the world. Well we are not in this alone there are 40 other countries that vocally give their support and many others who do quietly as to not upset their population. Why cannot the world police itself?

Would you allow someone like Saddam to live in your neighborhood? This earth is our neighborhood. I do not wonder why a coalition of nations is going in to finally get rid of him. What I wonder is why did it take so long? Why was he allowed to torture and murder his people for so long by the world community? Why was he allowed for this last 12 years to build a bigger arsenal of WMD?

I am not angry that we are in Iraq. I am angry that the world community lets these disgusting regimes go unchecked. Even gives them legitimacy by recognizing them as a government, by appointing them to things like the UN Committee on human rights? (What a$$ thought it was even acceptable to have Iraq on a committee of human rights? That’s like making a known child molester in charge of a children’s nursery. The UN has made itself irrelevant. It’s more of a social club than viable world organization.) What I’d love to see is for the world community to for a coalition to get ride of all such leaders. One that put nations states on notice that such things will not be tolerated.

What I think is that we should be protesting is ambivalence and lack of moral fiber in our world leaders and many of the people in this world. How could France, Germany and Russia supply that madman with more weaponry and then oppose ousting him? You know how? Because they could care less if he is a despot, they are making money off his regime. Because they do not want the world to know what they have been doing while touting themselves as superior to the USA. That is all that matters to them.

The collision forces and we have some very brave and sacrificing young men and women over there. I’m not sure that as volunteers they were totally aware that they put their young lives on the line as they have. I know that I was not when I joined. It hit me my first night in basic training… trying to sleep on the top bunk with diagrams of M16’s, M60’s and other weapons that I’d soon be learning to breakdown, clean reassemble and fire. But I have no doubt our soldiers that they will meet the challenge they have with honor now. I’ve never before been struck by the magnitude of the sacrifice, even when it was around me for so much of my life. Maybe it’s because I now have teenagers and I see them in the young faces on TV.

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