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This is my first time posting here in Pregnancy. My W had an EA/PA that caused a pregnancy. She didn't know about the pregnancy (for sure) until the day after d-day, I made her take a test. When we confirmed it, she said right away that she would have an abortion, I didn't care. This is where it gets bad...see, I through her out upon which time she called OM to tell him. I suspect she new she may be pregnant, that led her to confess out of the blue. FYI: she ended the A a month prior to d-day.<P>After two miserable hours, I called her home and told her we would work it out. The abortion was a go 3 days later. I made her contact OM to demand the $$$ for it (dumb idea I know). Well, the day before she was supposed to meet him to get the money (even dumber I know). I realized what was about the happend and told not go meet him, I'll pay for it I didn't want her to see him. Still, she had to call him and cancel the meeting....all goes downhill from here. Although she hasn't told me exactly what he said to her on that call, I know he broke down crying and (for the first time in their whole A) said he'd leave his wife for her. I suspect he asked her to marry him or run away with him. She just says "she doesn't want to say...it was mushy".<P>Anyways, she had the abortion. She is anti-abortion but said what she did was wrong, carrying the baby was wrong and had to end it. Even at the clinic she told them that, they almost didn't do it, but she explained the situation and they went ahead w/ it.<P>Now, my question; it's been 3 months since d-day/abortion. Her self esteem is horrible. In addition to the whole trauma of the A, she has the abortion to deal with which still haunts her. After 3 months she finally wants to talk about it a little. I need some prespective, I don't want to LB and do anything to make her shut down on me. Are there any WS's who went through something similar? I know alot of ppl here have the child, but has anyone had an abortion? I need to know how to be the best listener for my W and be the best support system I can be. I love her so much, I want her to take that step and confide in me. To date, no one (except me and OM) knows about the pregnancy. <P>Any help would be great, thanks [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><P>------------------<BR>...Keeping a stiff upper lip<BR>-Scarlet Pumpernickle<BR>s_pumpernickle@yahoo.com

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sp,<BR>There is an actual condition called "Post Abortion Syndrome" that your wife is probably suffering from. I'm sure there is an organization in or near your hometown that would offer counceling for this. She is dealing with two huge issues, the affair and the abortion, and needs professional help. As far as the affair, I would suggest counceling from the Harley's, if your wife is willing. If you haven't read their books, "surviving an affair", "His Needs, Her Needs", and "Marital Insurance". These books will help you recover your marriage and keep it on the right track from here on out. <P>Do you and your W have any children? How long have you been married? Keep posting often...it helps!<BR>Floored

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Scarlet,<BR>I suggest counseling and perhaps an antidepressant to help her through this awful situation.<P>I believe she choose the best thing for your marriage. <P>Please stay with her and help her as she made a supreme sacrifice to save your marriage.<P>It may take some time. God forgives us all our human errors.<BR>Please let her know this.<P>Perhaps she is willing to talk to someone at your church.<P>I will pray for you.<P>love<BR>Debi<P>------------------<BR>Imagine....

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floored, gemini, thanks for repling.<P>Yes, we have to great children, 14 (from my W's previous marriage) and we have a 9 year old son together. We have been married 11 years and neither of us desire any more children. She is starting to finally open up a little to me about her feeling regarding the abortion (baby steps). I just hug her and let her cry. I kiss her and tell her I love her. I don't think she will attend counceling or seek medication as she is too emabarresed to tell anyone what se did. Until then, I just love her the best I can.<P>Thanks again [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com]<P><P>------------------<BR>...Keeping a stiff upper lip<BR>-Scarlet Pumpernickle<BR>s_pumpernickle@yahoo.com

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There are many things people do to avoid facing the consequences of our stupid behavior and bad choices. We don't want others to know the depth of our baseness. We can barely face ourselves!<P>How come we immediately resort to murder when adoption exists? Because we are too proud to admit to the world exactly how many lives we have potentially destroyed... The OC are the most innocent lives of all! God has a purpose for their lives. Who are we to decide whether or not the OC deserves to live? <P>We go to extremes to hide our sin from others and in reality we could spend a lifetime hiding from ourselves! Scarlet, I know that you know all these things already, so the bottom line is: sucking the baby down a sink did not erase any of your wife's pain!!! It merely created more pain, shame, and hiding. Which explains why she can't readily talk to you more openly about her feelings.<P>You already have two kids so your wife knows she did not conceive an "it." She will live with the inner torment forever. She needs to be reminded of God's forgiveness and unconditional love. The pain and memories of what she has done will come and go, but the scars will remain. These are the kind of scars that only the Lord can heal. Nothing you can say and no amount of listening can ever erase her decisions. What's done is done. <P>Every time women go to the ob/gyn for a check-up, we have to disclose the number of pregnancies and the number of children we have. I am ever reminded of my act of murder. I believe in God's forgiveness. I believe Jesus' Blood covers my sins: past, present, and future, however, I cannot escape the thoughts and wondering why I felt abortion was my only option at that time? (Pride) Furthermore, if I could go back and do it all over, I would likely repeat my decision because of my mindset at that time.<P>At the time of my abortion, I was not a WS, I was a teenager. Afterward, I conceived my firstborn as an OP involved with a married man. I was not out to break up his family, he had already done that, and we were not in love nor planning any life together. The idea of raising the child alone, & facing the shame and pain that I had created for this child was worth living with rather than the remorse of abortion! <P>Perhaps the best thing you can do for your wife right now and in the YEARS to come, is pray. Pray that she would receive God's mercy & forgiveness in her heart and come to a place where she can forgive herself for everything. Her baby is in heaven now. <P>So many lives were devastated and all this is a chain reaction of disaster because of one stupid decision--to pursue an extramarital A. Yikes...<P>But God knew we would all be in these situations before we ever got here. He knows how to get us out of every disaster and keep our heads up inside. None of these events came as a surprise to Him. God always warns us beforehand. God warns us and the devil tempts us then beats us over the head with guilt after we give in to his temptations.<P>There is no condemnation in Christ. The only thing to do with the past is to forget it. When an OC is in the picture, forgettting the past is something we have to acknowledge every single day for the rest of the OC's life. And THEN, when the OC is old enough to describe the pain of their own reality, you ain't seen nothin' yet...<P>Regardless, the principles of faith in God's love, forgiveness, and salvation apply here because sin is sin no matter how "dignified" or "undignified" it appears to be on the surface. Forget the past and move forward in God.<P>BTW, my son is now very involved in church leadership... God is blessing others through this OC's life. Praise God!

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BinthereDunthat, You speak of so many religious thoughts in this last post, however I have a question for you, when you were involved with this mm, did you know he was married. One of the ten comandments, says thou shall not be with thou neighbor's wife and I think that means neighbor's husband too. Gabi1116

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Beenthere.. it is just unreal to me that you could post such a totally insensitive post. And if the facts be presented, life is not there until a fetus has brain function (same rule which applies to the end of life right?... no brain function means death, so start of braind function means life). At 3 months there is NO brain function. This may be ugly to some, but at that point the fetus is not a functioning being. Anyway... I am falling off the subject. Slamming this man and his wife serves little purpose. If you cannot be supportive, just stay quiet. He is in pain & she is in pain. All this praying will do little to help that. What will help is compassion & understanding. Guilt does nothing but hurt.<P>SC... tell your wife she has nothing to be ashamed of. She acted in the best interest of the two children she has already given birth to. Keep loving her & kissing her. Yes... there have been bad things that have happened, and all of us would love to have the chance to make the choices be better ones, but that is not an option open to us. Start from today & walk forward. It gets better, but there is no magic formula. Take care... Carolyn

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Takingcare...the jury is still out on whether or not a young fetus has brain function or whether or not a young fetus is a 'person' or tissue. Many, many people feel very strongly that it is a person at the moment of conception and others do not think it is or should be considered a person until 6 weeks or so. We all have such strong and varying perspectives on this subject.<P>BTDT can say whatever she wants. I agree she was a bit judgmental but you can point that out without returning fire. You can debate the issues, even that sticky one, as long as we all adhere to respecting each other's opinions and show some sensitivity to each other's particular dilemma...even ones you do not agree with. This goes for BTDT, too.<P>It's all in the delivery, Kids. Let's play nice.<P>Catnip =^^=<P>

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Thanks for posting.<P>BTDT, your post is a bit harsh, but it's to be expected. I just aired a very sensitive, contraversial issue for all to read, I expected some ridicule.<P>My W is NOT proud of what she did. From the lying, the A itself and the unfortunate terminated pregnancy. The whole thing is a big mess and I don't know if there is a "right" thing to do. I think what's right for one, isn't right for another, it's up to each individual situation. I WILL NOT start a discussion on abortion or my views, they are irrelivant and unproductive to this thread.<P>Nonetheless, we are coping. I hug her and tell all the time that I love her and what she is feeling is normal. If she ever needs to talk to someone, she can to talk to me or a counselor whenever she wants. Is this easy? Of course not, but we will survive. <P>Thanks all for posting. She is getting better, one day at a time.<P> [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] <P>------------------<BR>...Keeping a stiff upper lip<BR>-Scarlet Pumpernickle<BR>s_pumpernickle@yahoo.com

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Dear ScarletP,<BR>Thank you kindly for your reply. I did not mean to come across to you as harsh at all--just trying to get in a lifetime of thoughts and perspectives in a few paragraphs, which is pretty tough. Especially since this stuff happened to me over 20 years ago. <P>Unfortunately, the drawback of this electronic age is that one cannot measure the sincerity of words or the tone of voice and things get interpreted based on the filter. If my words get filtered through a sieve of bitterness, resentment, and unforgiveness, then I could see how things could be clouded no matter what. Still, it's difficult not to take it personal, I try not to, as I KNOW I did nothing malicious to anyone here intentionally.<P>If my words are received in the spirit in which they were given--genuine concern for everyone's pain--then MY truth probably wouldn't sting so much because they surely were not meant to. I make decisions and *I* live with MY decisions. That's it.<P>Some words and phrases trigger responses in us and since we don't know anyone's background, we can only interpret based on our own definitions and TRY not to ASSUME... I thought this was a discussion forum and I got hammered for putting in my 2 cents' worth. AND just because I was willing to come here and be sincere, admitting my faults openly, and sharing my ideas on how to possibly ease some of the strife I'm reading about?<P>Scarlet, please believe me when I say that I admire you for being totally open about your situation as nobody's business nor how they personally see fit to handle it is ANYBODY's business. Our individual life decisions and our destiny is secured in God. We all must live with our own decisions. A series of good decisions lead to a series of good returns, a series of bad decisions are seeds that we are planting for our own futures. When we learn to do better, hopefully we do better.<P>The reason I came to this website is because as a CHRISTIAN, I endeavor to live my life in such a way that my thoughts and acts are pleasing to God. Period. Out of gratefulness for the blessings He has given me IN SPITE of me.<P>I am not here to judge where anyone is in their pain nor healing nor circumstances. The only thing a Christian has to fall back on is God's unchanging word. Feelings are fickle and cannot be relied on. Trials and storms will come regardless of anyone's beliefs, but we have the Creator of the universe inside our boat. He will get us to the other side as He promised--even if sometimes it appears that He is napping and unconcerned. Between the promise and the provision is life's problems--OR--opportunities to trust God.<P>There were only a couple of responses to your thread, so I thought I would give my perspective as I have walked down the road of abortion and felt what that did to me, AND I have walked down the path of adultery and seen how many lives were devastated. I am not here to speak for all OW so I wish my testimony wouldn't be seen in that light, you know, just lump me in with all the OW as if I speak for them? You shouldn't do that, if you're not doing that, then obviously I'm not speaking to you. Nor am I here to point any fingers. You were asking for different points of view so I simply added mine. <P>Ember asks, how I can forgive myself? Well, I can only fall back on God's promises and His word because in life, there are daily reminders of failure. I have read that nothing can separate me from God's love, not in this world nor in the world to come. I have read that my sins are erased by Jesus' Blood. His life was sacrificed so that I could have a relationship with His Father and access to the throne room of heaven. My forgiveness was sealed when Jesus rose from the dead to intercede on my behalf, even while I was an enemy of God's. I have also read that if I confessed my sins, HE is faithful and just to forgive me and cleanse me of all unrighteousness. Either I can choose to believe that, or go through life beating myself up because of how MY sin devasted me and others around me. <P>I'm not pissing and moaning, so please spare those accusations. I am simply a Christian who is not perfect and who is in no position to judge anyone. I judge myself, repent, and then I move on. How did Paul say it? "...one thing I do, forgetting those things which lie behind and press on toward the mark of the high calling in Christ..."<P>What is that calling? To get rid of strife and bitterness so that God's love can flow to me and through me to hurting people who have sinned just like me...

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BTDT,<P>I have read your posts several times to really think before I reply. I have decided if I cant say anything nice, then I souldnt say anything at all. We all have a special kinship here as we have all been thru or are going thru a particular situation and most of us are very sensitive and are hurt easily. We have a tendency to bond together to protect each other. <BR>I hear what you are saying and I do believe you are sincere and have good intentions. I think maybe your screen name has a tendency to automatically put some of us on the defense. It did me. I thought "oh no, here we go again". We get a lot of crashers here and we tend to jump on our toes quickly.<BR>I feel the pain in your words and although we are washed in the blood of the lamb and are forgiven, it is difficult to forget isnt it. The devil will not allow us to. Personally I struggle daily with my feelings towards ow and oc. The hate I feel towards ow and the sadness for oc. Yes oc is innocent, but also are my own. I am sorry for oc, but in this life I have been chosen by God to protect my little girl as ow has to protect hers. I struggle daily with guilt and anger. Please remember there are many other innocents in this situation and not all have been protected nor will the ones who are sheltered now, always be. These are the emotions we live with. THere are those whom God has convicted to be involved with oc and those with whom oc would be better off with, and it is not an easy road, for any of us. Harley makes a statement refering to the pain of the betrayed being greater than any pain before. Death, breakups, etc. It is a pretty harsh statement, but one I believe to be true. The only thing I could imagine to be worse would be the death of a young child. Something I pray we will never experience. Point is these are very raw emotions and they are easily disturbed.<BR>I pray for a long healthy life for you and your child.<BR>Go with God,<BR>broken_wings<BR>

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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by broken_wings:<BR><B>I think maybe your screen name has a tendency to automatically put some of us on the defense. It did me. I thought "oh no, here we go again". We get a lot of crashers here and we tend to jump on our toes quickly.</B> <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>??Not much thought went into that name really?? Perhaps that was my huge mistake!!! [Linked Image from marriagebuilders.com] I guess I could see how it would offend someone who might be thinking that nobody knows their pain unless they have personally walked in their shoes. But even if I did walk in your shoes, we would probably have two different reactions because everybody is unique. My reason for selecting that name was an attempt to identify with people's pain, not to alienate because I thought I knew it all.<P>Perhaps that is why there aren't many posts in this forum topic? After reading as much as I did before I (thoughtfully) responded, I knew I was taking a chance because of my past, but at least I got my questions answered--not without a beating, tho. OUCH!<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Personally I struggle daily with my feelings towards ow and oc. The hate I feel towards ow and the sadness for oc. Yes oc is innocent, but also are my own. I am sorry for oc, but in this life I have been chosen by God to protect my little girl as ow has to protect hers. I struggle daily with guilt and anger.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>That was the reason for my ignorant questions about how you could stand to put yourself through the agony of dealing with the OW even if it meant less or no contact with the OC. So thanks for answering. My concern for your pain was that because of all the anger and hatred building inside, couldn't it potentially cloud your ability to flow in God's love toward the ones you REALLY love, such as your own kids? <P>From a biblical standpoint, when we open the door to strife (an undercurrent of anger), we open the door to confusion and every evil work. In Psalms, God said He would protect us from the tongues of strife.<P>I submit to you that there ARE evil people in the world, no doubt, and we all have evil people we have to deal with. But if there weren't evil people in our lives who are very difficult to love, how would we ever have opportunities to practice God's love? God has no 'favorites' and He loves evil people just as much as He loves His children? He died for them just the same. <P><BR><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Harley makes a statement refering to the pain of the betrayed being greater than any pain before. Death, breakups, etc. It is a pretty harsh statement, but one I believe to be true.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Something was taken away from you that no one on earth could ever give back. These are wounds that only the Lord can heal. Even if OW apologized to you for her bad attitude and behavior, it would not erase your scars. There is not enough healing in this world to reach as deep as your pain. Only God can make it up to you. Jehovah Roi is the only one who really sees and knows because He lives on the inside of you and is with you always... Knowing that you are in His will--by being involved in your OC's life--is the passion that drives you on and I totally commend you.<P>While reading through several of the posts on this forum, what stood out to me was more hatred for the OW and not compassion for the OC--which obviously exists. It just wasn't readily evident. Methinks it's time for me to C my way out of all these A & B conversations...<P><B> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Point is these are very raw emotions and they are easily disturbed. I pray for a long healthy life for you and your child.</B><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>I respectfully understand. Please consider this: in order for a wound to heal, it first needs to be cut or dug at, in order to get all the infection out before healing can take place. Perhaps it is a good thing to have our nerves striken every now and then? Thanks for praying for me and my heartfelt prayers are with you as well as scarlet pumpernickel and others.<P><B>ScarletP</B>, again, please, I hope you don't feel ridiculed by me. I experienced what your wife has experienced, just in a completely different order so I imagined that her pain is more intense than mine ever was. I wish you only God's best.<P><B>taking care</B>, all I can say is that when a sperm and an egg come together, one cell is created. In that one cell is everything that person will ever be. The color of their eyes is determined, the color of their hair is already determined, their genetic makeup is formed within that one cell. And that is how we all started out.<P><B>catnip</B>, I appreciate your objectivity more than I can fully express. I personally thanked God for your kind reply. Even if I never post here again, I will never ever forget to pray for the face behind catnip! Sooo, whenever you get your miracle(s), I hope you remember that BtDt was somewhere out there praying, asking specifically for God to bless you exceedingly, abundantly, above all that you could ever ask or think. Again, thanks...

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BTDT, <P>I don't feel ridiculed, not at all. I really appreciate your insight on the subject. I know my wife is scarred for the rest of her life, I just want to be there for her. <P>Abortion is a VERY touchy subject for people, I knew what I was in for w/ my posting, you don't owe me any apology, but thanks anyways. <P>Take care.<P>------------------<BR>...Keeping a stiff upper lip<BR>-Scarlet Pumpernickle<BR>s_pumpernickle@yahoo.com

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SP: Consider yourselves hugged. :***(<P>That teary face just reminded me of somewhere in the bible where it says that God keeps track of every tear we shed? Isn't that incredible? OH and how about the one where He promises that we sow in tears and reap in joy! You will witness God's love and forgiveness for you in the way He blesses your marriage with restoration and your kids' lives flourishing, and helps you all recover from all of this. Mark my words! <3<3<3<P>I am convinced that you will look back on this all and be able to relive the story without any pain. The purpose of your test is so that you will have a testimony. God is ever stretching our faith and ability to believe in His love for us.<p>[This message has been edited by BINthereDUNthat (edited July 16, 2001).]


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