Okay, I&#8217;ve been stewing for almost 2 weeks and need to vent. I got a call from MM&#8217;s W. She needed to tell me that they could not make the full CS payment for January. This is no big deal and is not the reason I&#8217;m upset. I told her not to worry about it and was getting ready to close the conversation, but I sensed she wanted to talk, so I hedged a little and waited for her. Sure enough&#8230;. H was demoted and got a substantial cut in pay as a result. This happened over 2 months ago and W has been making up what he couldn&#8217;t pay. She had been urging him to talk to me for over 2 months and he refused. She knew that I would not be upset, but H insisted that I would have him thrown in jail for this. W knew he was being melodramatic as a way to &#8220;save face&#8221; and not have to talk money with me. I told her that the CS amount has never been an issue. She said that she knew that and H knew that, but he needed an excuse to not have to face the situation. Once again MM has put W in the position of having to &#8220;clean up&#8221; after him. She sounded remorseful and ashamed, which made me feel soooo guilty. They paid CS in full this past December because they wanted Jonas to have a good Christmas, but they really couldn&#8217;t afford it. Now they&#8217;re behind on their bills. I told her that she shouldn&#8217;t have to do this (call me about money). She agreed, but she also said that H is going through a very trying time right now and she&#8217;s trying to give him room and be supportive. He&#8217;s being very tight-lipped about the reason for his demotion. He doesn&#8217;t really know why and won&#8217;t talk about it. He&#8217;s obtained an attorney and is trying to fight the decision. His CO said that this had been in the works for awhile. He told her, at some point, that this was another punishment for what he did to her and to me, and for not being the father he always thought he would be. She said he&#8217;s very withdrawn and she&#8217;s guessing that he&#8217;s ashamed and is nursing himself from the blow to his pride/ego. He&#8217;s a very proud man who likes to &#8220;handle his own&#8221;, and right now he can&#8217;t. Also, he&#8217;s always wanted children and now that he has a son, he can&#8217;t be the father he imagined he would be&#8230;.and he knows it&#8217;s because he screwed up. Oh, and one more thing. This is where I need some insight and advice. Because H was demoted, he cannot finish his current tour and is being stationed somewhere else. It&#8217;s going to be one of 2 places, and one of those places is back here in San Diego. From what I gather, H wants to be here so that he can establish his relationship with Jonas. He wants to be close to his son. Dios, help me. She sounded really unsteady when she told me this. We were doing really well this past year. I just know that some of her insecurities are going to resurface. How do I handle that? Do you guys have any suggestions on what I can do or should not do to facilitate this for all of us? You guys have come through for me before and really helped me when this was all so new. I really need your direction again. For my son, I think it could be a good thing, BUT, for me, I&#8217;m quite shaky about it. I guess I was living in a bubble and it just popped. As long as MM was at a distance, I was secure. Now I&#8217;m facing the serious possibility that he&#8217;s coming back here for his son, and I&#8217;m very nervous. I don&#8217;t want anymore drama in my life, and that&#8217;s what MM brings with him&#8230;too much drama. The times that we have spoken have been deliberately few, simply because I&#8217;m not comfortable with his demeanor towards me. He&#8217;s too familiar and too much of his &#8220;old self&#8221; comes through (the teasing, charm and too personal questions). I can always tell when his W is not with him. If she is, he&#8217;s very quiet and his answers are monosyllabic. I don&#8217;t know why, but I feel like I&#8217;m at a great disadvantage. I would like my son to know his father, but I don&#8217;t really want his father so close to my sanctuary. Boy, am I making sense. San Diego is my domain; my home turf. I don&#8217;t want him here on such a permanent basis, and I&#8217;m sure his W would much rather be somewhere else&#8230;.even Siberia.<p>I&#8217;m frustrated, confused and peeved&#8230;.I&#8217;m PMS&#8217;ing!!!<p>OB1

OB1,<p>Hey, just a suggestion, and you may want to talk this over with xMM's W, but if they do end up in SD, couldn't you have her be your point of contact for everything? If it makes you uncomfortable to talk to xMM, or to see him, as it surely does for his W, then I think it would be best for all involved if she was your only contact w/xMM.<p>I think that if you and the W talk this through, and make a decission together on what you both feel would be the right thing to do, it could be a very positive experience for everyone, especially Jonas.<p>JMHO
Love,<p>Tigger

You know, Tigger, you&#8217;re right. I would be more comfortable if she was the point of contact&#8230;or at least came with him. I guess my agitation comes from MM&#8217;s past deceptiveness. Being in the same town would only make it easier and more tempting for MM to &#8220;stop by&#8221;, only now he has more incentive. I guess I&#8217;m just not over the past. Just when I thought he was done pulling crap, he would do something else. I don&#8217;t want to have to be his watchguard and go running to his W if he pulls something inappropriate. I just don&#8217;t want to have to deal with that part of him anymore. I feel like Pandora&#8217;s box is being opened all over again. Being in separate states has helped us to establish a workable and pretty decent relationship. It was formed with good thoughts and great intentions. I don&#8217;t want to lose that because MM has a history of deception and not controlling his urges. I get along well with his W and actually like her, but he&#8217;s a different story. I&#8217;m very guarded and cynical when it comes to him. I don&#8217;t trust him very much. MM and I have a tie that I cannot break. For some OW, that would be a power they love to weald over MM, but I do not. I feel as if it is something that MM would weald over me. I do want to give him and Jonas every opportunity to have a good relationship, but I don&#8217;t want MM using Jonas as a way to have control over me and be a part of my life. Please don&#8217;t misunderstand that. I&#8217;m not sure what I&#8217;m trying to say. I&#8217;m thinking this through as I type. I guess my thought process is this: with so many miles between us, W and I had the control because there was nothing MM could really do. He&#8217;s not a talker, he&#8217;s a doer. So, his interaction was contained. If he&#8217;s physically here, well, there&#8217;s nothing stopping him from stopping by to see his son. There is more opportunity. I don&#8217;t put it past him to just pop in. This would really jeopardize everything that I have worked for this past year. I have fought to prove myself to his W, for the sake of my son. Now, I feel like all of that could be on the line. Chances are good that they will end up in San Diego. I don&#8217;t want MM to contemplate doing anything behind his W&#8217;s back just to see if he can get away with it. He played this game right after Jonas was born, until I pulled the plug and told his W. I don&#8217;t ever want to be placed in that position again. I know I&#8217;m probably worrying too much about something that hasn&#8217;t even happened, but, damn it all, I worked hard to make this situation as good as it could be and I don&#8217;t want it to fall apart. I can see the potential for more hurt to go around and it scares me.

Ohbratti1,<p>Do you still have feelings for MM? If not don't worry about it if he tries something tell him you like and respect his wife and will notify her of any inappropriate actions. Tigger was right have his wife be your contact person. Good luck and don't worry about it until you have to deal with it. I always do that and cause myself unnecessary stress.<p>
Unsure

Unsure,<p>No. No feelings for MM. I deeply value the peace and calm that is my life right now. I don't want to lose it. I don't want to be the giver or receiver of anymore hurt. MM can be very cocky with me. It's like he knows something about me that I don't and it's very irritating. I know I shouldn't worry so much about something that hasn't happened, but it's hard not to. I don't want to presume to know this man better than his W, but he has said things to me that were completely opposite of what his W said. I don't believe that she has lied to me, which leads me to wonder if MM lied to me or to her. In either case, his integrity level is pretty low. There were times that I thought MM was being compliant and a "good" H because of his military career and the fear that W would press charges against him...which she threatened to do. I would wonder if he just gave her false hope to placate her and appease her anger. But then I would back away from those thoughts and tell myself that she KNOWS and trusts her H, and I need to quit wondering about something that is not my business. Now I'm having those thoughts again. MM has been demoted and he lost the position he so wanted to preserve. Now he's withdrawing from W. He's not talking to her like he used to (shutting her out) and he has, against her wishes, lobbied for a duty station in the last place she wants to be (San Diego). His second possibility for duty is a place where they have lived before, have friends, and she's comfortable in, but MM did not ask for it, despite her wish for him to do so. It's almost like all bets are off. He lost what he was trying to save, so now he's proceeding without much consideration for her. The final decision has not been made. They sit and wait for the military to decide where they will go. She's worried. I know she's worried. You could hear the stress in her voice. She was upset. While living 1500 miles away, it was not much of an issue that he would be apart from Jonas. I assumed that it didn't really affect him. Often times I thought she cared more than he did. But now he has an opportunity to be close to his son and he's doing what he can to make it happen. I think she was stunned that he would do this, and so am I. I don't want her to feel threatened, but I think she does. She's still trying to conceive and has been unsuccessful. This upsets her very much. In a sense, it's like she feels she's running out of time. ARRRGGGHHHHH! I really feel for her. Everything had been said and done. We were all content with the way things were, or so I thought. I thought our path was pretty clear. Now, I feel like someone turned out the lights. I don't know what lies ahead. She has been thrown for a loop and so have I.

See, see! This is what I&#8217;m talking about. MM just called me to see how Jonas is doing. MM hasn&#8217;t been the one to initiate contact in a very long time. What threw me off was when I answered the phone, it was just a voice calling me by a pet name. I did a quick doubletake. He calls me Big Head. Whenever we had a debate, I liked to win and I won often, so he started calling me Big Head. I haven&#8217;t heard him call me that since I first found out he was married. Now I&#8217;ve got a knot in the pit of my stomach. He&#8217;s getting a little too brave. I don&#8217;t like this. I don&#8217;t like this at all. I don&#8217;t like him thinking it&#8217;s okay to be so familiar with me. I don&#8217;t want him getting any crazy ideas about me and Jonas. I don&#8217;t want to alienate him, but I won&#8217;t stand for anymore disrespectful or shady behavior. I asked him about being reassigned and where he might end up moving to. He very ominously replied that &#8220;time will tell&#8221; and then chuckled. All of a sudden he has a great interest in his son. He&#8217;s no longer content to let his W talk to me about Jonas. HE wants to call and talk to me because it&#8217;s HIS son. I&#8217;m confused by his behavior. I feel like I just had a quick flashback to 2 years ago and he just picked up the phone in the middle of the work day to see what was up and to chit chat for a few. The hair on the nape of my neck is sticking straight out. Something is up with him and it has me a little spooked. My gut tells me this isn&#8217;t right, but I don&#8217;t want to cry wolf. I'll have to sleep on this.

All I can say is that this kind of stuff really puts the fear in me. The fear that we have no control over what's going to happen because there's another person who was at a time, a temporary thing, and now is very permanent. They can mess with our lives at any given time.<p>When I read your post, I get a bit angry, not at you, but at our xow. I feel like, hey, these are the consequences, now it's time to deal with them.<p>I feel like my WS has made me clean up all his crap (not calling oc "crap"). I've had to contact the ow, I've had to contact places about DNA, I've had to contact the counselor everything. Why is it that the BS has to keep cleaning up and taking care of the WS's mistake? <p>I know that I am tired of the ow having all the control and I am tired of feeling sorry for my WS because he feels like dirt when we talk about it. They screwed up, you screwed up, pay the price. I know that I am.<p>Tell that MM in no uncertain terms what your boundries are! Get tough with him. Tell him what you will do if he decides to cross those boundries. Everything is out in the open for you all and keep it that way. You *do* have control here! Don't let him rattle you and pull the rug out from under you. <p>I know my post is confusing. Sorry. I hope that everything works out for you.

Ohbratti1,<p>After you finish PMS'ing. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] Talk to MM wife and find out how she feels about this entire situation. Tell her you would perfer to deal with her re: contact and all other issues. If she doesn't have a problem with that take it from there. No man has the right to just pop over someone they do not have a relationship with house, unless they call first. Nip that in the bud before it begins. Good Luck again.<p>Unsure

Hi obratti1,
I bet if you called his wife each and every time he calls you, he would back off. ("Hi W, I just wanted to call and let you know that your husband just called me and I feel very uncomfortable with this.) Just become a broken record and call her every time and say the same thing. (?) I would expose him instead of being manipulated and controlled by him going around in fear and worry about my space being invaded. Maybe you could work out visitation where it would not involve your place whatsoever? <p>What if you chose a neutral pick up and drop off spot (e.g., your mom's or somewhere where other people are around constantly). Change your phone number and only give it to his W. If you receive your CS through a court trustee--mention the problem to your DA?! Get a restraining order?! There are ways to deal with this if he is disrespecting your wishes. Are you married now? If not, let your SO or your brother, or a male friend answer your phone or your door a few times... I think he is just trying to see if you are alone and vulnerable... and from reading your posts, it appears that you are! [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] <p>What if you casually mention his wife's name to him when he asks you how you are doing and calls you pet names. Ask him how is his marriage and how is he changing to make himself a better husband? Do you think that could that make him act more respectful to his wife and to you?<p>Whatever you do, don't listen to him talk about his marital problems ever again, not that you ever did... Maybe get a tape recorder for your phone (in case you tell his W and she doesn't believe you that he is harrassing you). Start documenting this stuff in case you do have to fight for full custody.<p>Maybe he is feeling bad about his demotion and trying to bully both of you guys around to make himself feel bigger. (?) Who knows what is going on in this man's mind? But what is clear to me is that he is not only disrespecting you, but he is disrespecting his wife as well. And, what will this mean when it comes to his decision-making as the father of YOUR son???? It doesn't sound like he is remotely interested in implementing any sort of POJA!

OB1 I don't have much advice for you. BTDT took care of that as did others who replied.<p>I feel sorry for your situation as well as W.<p>The fact that you show compassion toward her is wonderful on your part.<p>I know if you pray God will show you the path to take. <p>Telling W each time he calls is a good idea. I would only hope for someone like you with this sneaky MM's calls.<p>Prayers that your peace continues.<p>love
Debi

Dear OB1,<p>My new name is MaryJanes. I used to be Mrs. Job.<p>I like everyone's idea of telling the wife anytime husband make improper contact.<p>I call it my "brick wall theory." We use it all the time with exOW. She tries to make some demand about how visitation will go and we say no. If she asks again, we just say "no" again. We don't say it any louder or with any more anger. Eventually she learns that we are not going to change our decision.<p>All the best,
MJ

Thanks for the responses. I&#8217;m just frustrated with the situation right now. It has the potential to become nasty again and that makes me angry. Sometimes I feel like his W and I have worked more on preserving/restoring their marriage than he has. I have been cooperative, compliant, understanding, remorseful, etc, etc, and then he comes along and undermines what I&#8217;ve been trying to do. It makes me wonder why I care and why I even try. It&#8217;s HIS marriage, damn it, and he&#8217;s still blowing it! I know that in the broader scope of things, I wouldn&#8217;t be able to settle for anything but conducting myself the way I have been. I just sometimes feel like I&#8217;m wasting my time. I feel for his W. I really do. I strongly suspect that he has not been very honest with her, but I can&#8217;t prove it, nor is it my place to interfere. <p>Tinlizzy,
&#8220;Why is it that the BS has to keep cleaning up and taking care of the WS's mistake?&#8221; I&#8217;ve been asking that question since the beginning. I liken it to caring for a child sometimes. MM really messed up and W (the clean-up crew) comes in (again & again & again) to do damage control. I don&#8217;t know if I could do it. For me, part of being a responsible adult is fixing your mistakes and not passing the buck. Yet, that could mean having contact with the OW, which just opens up another, dirtier can of worms. I guess you just have to pick the lessor of 2 evils. I&#8217;m sorry my post upset you. I realized later that what I was posting would be understood by some of the &#8220;oldies&#8221;, but could be damaging others. I don&#8217;t want to take away the hope that their situations will get better. Yet, when there&#8217;s an OC involved I guess it never really ends, does it? Being able to adapt and overcome is a crucial survival skill. In all reality, my situation with W and MM has turned out pretty good, considering how it could have been. I don&#8217;t give any credit to him for that. His W and I have worked hard together to make this as good as it could be. We worked as a team and I thought he was a part of that team. Now I&#8217;m thinking he has his own agenda and his W and I are not privy to the details. Whatever is going on in that little head of his is not something he&#8217;s sharing. He&#8217;s been making some moves that have his W and I stumped and a little on edge. However, I will continue to conduct myself as before. W and I will continue to have open communication and HE can bite me! (there goes that PMS thing again)

OB1,<p>I think that you are doing the right thing. As everyone else has said, keep up the communication with the W! I especially like BTDT's ideas. Change your number and give it only to W. Tell xMM that if he continues to call behind W's back, you will notify the necessary people(ie his W!) Tell his W what you plan to do, as far as getting xMM to stop his games with the both of you.<p>I think that if you and W stick to your guns, it can still be a comfortable situation. You have had the right idea for so long, so don't let him sway you from your plan, regardless as to what he may do to get you to do what he wants to do!<p>Love,<p>Tigger

Ohbratti, <p>Your post didn't upset me as much as scare me [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I'm still pretty new to all this, I feel. I don't know what's going to happen. Of course, none of us can know. What's that saying about the best plans (and how the can get messed up!)?? I know on a deeper level that none of this is really in our hands, but I like to think so!<p>In fact, the situation that you just brought up has been going thru my mind. I was crying the other night (after watching this stupid movie) because what happens if someday my WS decides that he wants a happy little family with XOW and OC? What if we do find out for sure that the boy is his and they start having contact and then he realizes that she's really what he wants? It scares me to death! I can see why MM's wife is uneasy!!! She probably knows exactly how he is and is scared to death.<p>The only thing that I can see happening with you constantly calling his wife (if he's constantly calling you) is that he could deny it and call you a liar. Of course she wants to believe *him*. You and she have such a good relationship and it's probably important to you to keep it that way.<p>Have you been able to tell him like it is? How it's going to be? Take the bull by the horns! You shouldn't have to change anything because he's decided that he's got a new game to play!<p>Well, that's my advice, for whatever it's worth. <p>I think that you're doing a great job!<p>tinlizzy

Tigger,<p>Do what?<p>Just kidding. I gotcha. MM is like a spoiled child who has been coddled far too long. Well, I'm not his momma and I'm not his W. Enough with his self-indulgent games. He needs to play it straight or stay in the background and let the grown folk take care of business. I'm sure he needs a good swift kick in the a$$, but I don't think he'll be getting it any time soon. His W sounds too unsteady to take an offensive position with him. She's trying to deal with the recent decisions that could, once again, uproot her life.<p>OB1

Hi,<p>I understand the difficult situation you
are in...and really feel for you, Jonas and
MM's wife. It is disturbing to read how this
guy's still trying to play games. Doesnt
sound like he has Jonas's best interest at
heart. Very hard to parent effectively when
you are dealing with head games. Right now
your little boy is relatively easy to raise,
it is when they are old enough to question
why this and why that...when you'll have to
sit him down and explain how people make
mistakes but sometimes good things come out
of it...like him. When it'll break your heart
to explain the situation that you put him in
(unknowingly from what I remember of your story).
I know the difficulties of raising a child alone.
It's evident that your baby is your pride and
joy...that's what they should be...it is so sad
that the thought of a baby can cause so much pain
when that baby is your H and some other woman's.<p>If I were your xMM's wife, I'd want to know if
he were still interested in you and showing
you signs. I would have to sign off if that were
the case...<p>She deserves to know. I can't believe he would
continue to be so stupid and callous to his wife.<p>Good luck with you and Jonas. Enjoy every day
because they grow so fast.

Fluke,
If it were me, I would also like to know. At this point it would be pure speculation and premature to say that he was showing me signs of interest. However, he is definitely playing head games. I don&#8217;t want to place the seed of doubt in his W&#8217;s mind unnecessarily. I want their marriage to work, not only for her sake, but for mine. If it fails due to the EMA, then I have to accept partial responsibility for the demise of the marriage. For me, the guilt associated with that is tremendous. I was involved in something that set off an awful chain of events. I don&#8217;t regret having Jonas&#8230;not for a single second. I made a choice and I knew there would be consequences, but it sure wears on you. Just thinking about all the possible scenarios makes me tired. I was really enjoying the peace we had found. I think I&#8217;ll just play it cool and lay low. Once the dust settles a bit, I&#8217;ll re-evaluate and make whatever moves I need to make, if any.<p>OB1

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ohbratti1:
<strong>If he&#8217;s physically here, well, there&#8217;s nothing stopping him from stopping by to see his son. .</strong><hr></blockquote><p>Au contrare, Ohbratti...there is much you can do, My Friend. <p>If it were me, as soon as I knew FOR SURE they were coming to San Diego, (I feeeeel soooo sorry for you-it's only the most beautiful city in the US1) I would write them a letter. I would call W and tell her about it first so she knows that it is really directed at MM. In the letter I would set boundaries of what is acceptable and what is NOT...like 'dropping by'. Let MM know that this is not doable and he cannot just drop by on a whim or without W. Stipulate that the pick up and drop off must be made by W.<p>At least, this is what comes to my mind...just a suggestion. Everyone here has had great advice.<p>I just don't want to see you upset or your lives disrupted by some guy who likes to make innuendo and mess with your grey matter.<p>You and W have quite a rapport (something extremely rare) and since MM wants to be invovled with Jonas, it is wise to keep W on your side and keep her secure and free from anxiety. <p>Good luck, Ohbratti...I'll keep you and Jonas in my prayers and see if I can muster some empathy for you living in SAN DIEGO!!! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Glad to see you hanging around...hope you have a great New Year.<p>Love<p>Catnip =^^=

Hi again,
Sorry if I'm butting in on your thread, because I am not a MB oldie. However, a while back I did read all your posts from your MB beginnings... For what it's worth...<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by ohbratti1:
<strong>It makes me wonder why I care and why I even try...nor is it my place to interfere.
</strong><hr></blockquote> <p>I think you care and you feel frustrated because you are a single mom trying to raise a child (a BOY nonetheless), and you want to be cordial with the people who are sending you support money for your child. <p>It's tough to know that your OCs' bio dad is a jerk and yet out of respect, keep it a secret from OC all their lives... One day, they grow up and they figure it out all on their own tho, trust me... [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] (Heck, they may even decide that YOU were also a jerk for being an OW!! Yes, indeedie...) I can say that I have definitely been there and seen that happen with my oldest (OC) son...<p>Then again, perhaps MM in your situation will change his ways. Nothing is impossible with God. And with God there is always hope for improvement. Always. Keep the faith! [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>
<strong> Yet, when there&#8217;s an OC involved I guess it never really ends, does it?
<hr></blockquote></strong><p>NOPE!!! <p>Infidelity causes the kind of pain that just keeps on giving--year after year after year! [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] Hang in there!<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>

As a specific example obratti1 and this is especially for you as I really try hard not to be sharing a bunch of our personal business out here. It's just not all that important and not my real purpose for posting on MB, but this example IS...<p>Okay, my OC is 19 and is almost done with his AA degree and maintaining a 4.0. He decided he wanted to apply for the military. <p>The sargeants told OC that if he has a stepdad, they could care less. They wanted only the name of the bio dad, and his address. I don't even know his home address!!! Another sort of "trigger" I guess... reminding me of my stupidity. And yet another outside influence trying to displace the loyaltly that rightfully belongs to OCs stepdad.<p>And look, I am 20+ years down the road PAST the A!!!!! <p>A while back we were at a neighbor's party where I find out that my (married) neighbors have all assumed that I have been married before. I just let it go. Why say something that might make them feel I am a THREAT to their marriages because my son's father was and is already married and this is my first marriage. [img]images/icons/frown.gif" border="0[/img] I am NOT a threat to anyone's marriage. Through MB concepts, I am learning how to affair-proof my marriage as well as protect myself from my own weaknesses. I love my husband with all my heart.<p>BSs are not the only ones who feel as though they cannot share all their truths with the world... But at least they don't have to feel ashamed for causing any problems and devastation in anyone elses' lives, you know?<p>I think that the alliance you have built with MM's wife is commendable, but the real teambuilding should be going on between her and her H. I think you would do more damage to her marriage in trying to "team up" with W and frankly, I hope that she would not allow that to happen. No offense intended, but as a wife I know I could not feel comfortable confiding in and bonding with my husband's former OW... (?) (!) Although you feel especially close to her, put yourself in her shoes and you will realize that she can't possibly feel all that comfy with you.<p>[ January 09, 2002: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</p>