Well, the other shoe finally dropped. Please, please, don't say I told you so.<p>We have had visitation for 11 of the 12 months that OC has been alive. We have paid cs for those months as well. We have bought oc clothes, diapers, food, toys, etc. in addition to cs.<p>We love the oc as if it were a child of our marriage and have included oc in all we can. Yet, the exow is not satisfied. To make a long story short....we are done. <p>Done playing her games. Done giving her control. Done riding the roller coaster.<p>So, you are all right. Visitation doesnt work. I admit it. It breaks my heart, but I admit. OW cannot stand the fact that a father wants to be just that, a father. Nothing more, nothing less.<p>H will be not her taxi to drive exow around when her poor wittle truck breaks down. H will not be there to wipe oc runny nose when oc is not at our house. H WILL have a, and I quote, "F#$king escort" when he picks up or visits oc.<p>What? You say that you dont like that? Oh, what was I thinking...I thought we were all doing what was best for the child. OH, my bad, I didnt realize it was supposed to be all about you! I guess it is ok if oc doesnt have a relationship with its father. But remember....YOUR DECISION!!!!!!!!!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Sorry, I realize that our exow woman isnt reading this. I am just so full of mixed emotions about all of this.<p>I could use some advice about how to get through this part. It feels like d-day all over again. This beautiful little person will be missing out on a wonderful relationship with its father...AND FOR WHAT!!!!??????!!!! [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Damn! I really hate seeing this. OC will miss out on sooo much because of a self-absorbed mother. The line has to be drawn, Tryin&#8217;. You did good. You tried. Unfortunately, there are things beyond your control, and OW&#8217;s stupidity is one of those &#8220;things&#8221;. She&#8217;s acting as if she has some sort of entitlement as the OC&#8217;s mother. She does not. God help me, if I ever start acting like that, slap me!

I want to make sure I understand you right. ex-OW thinks she has W rights to your H because she bore his child? And because your H will not participate in that capacity, she is somehow recanting agreement of OC visitation?<p>Jo

Tryin,<p>You just scared the heck out of me. H starts supervised vists with OC on Sunday. The first of 3 months worth. Then OC will come to our house. exOW is crazy and deranged so I'm afraid of all sort of false allegations. Like poor Gabi is going through. exOW does not want OC around me too bad she knew he was married pre-affair. I said I would try so I'm going to do it and see how it works out. It is sad that some womn can not put their children first. Good luck with your situation.<p>
Unsure

Dear Resilient and Unsure,<p>Yes exow wants h to essentially be her life partner. She just cannot see this for what it is. She cannot let go.<p>Our exow was very cooperative compared to many but had "tantrums" about once every 6 weeks or so. Well this time she went too far. She called my h a bad father based on the fact that he doesnt jump to her side to assist every time oc has the sniffles. <p>She cant see the forest for the trees. A man who wants to see his child, pays child support, offered to pay medical when hers gave her the runaround, etc. She whines that h didnt help her when she needed.<p>WRONG! He just didnt help her in the WAY she wanted him to. He has helped from day one including being the hospital for the birth. But since he wasnt in the delivery room, but in the waiting room, she says he wasnt there.<p>Sorry rambling.<p>Unsure...I dont know what to tell you. I thought we might be the exception to the rule. Every other bs told me that it wouldnt work, but we didnt seem to have as much of the same daily bullsh@t as everyone else. Boy was I wrong! I dont want to discourage anyone, but if I can save anyone else the heartache, I would like to do that. It is almost worse than d-day when you have to let an innocent child go. <p>I just hope that down the road oc will understand that we wanted him and love him. His mother was just apparently hurting too much to think straight. At least that is what I would say to the oc. To everyone else, his mother is a selfish, inconsiderate, unrealistic, immature, unbalanced, raging b#@ch!<p>Sorry, just had enough.

Tryin,<p>Don't kick yourself for being wrong because you are not wrong about anything. God led your heart to be the "light" in darkness. You tried. What you should be is proud of your willingness to walk through the "valley". You walked through it in obedience to Christ and you found an evil presence whose determination is to divide and destroy your marriage. As the Bible is clear, "let no man put asunder, divide", not even the ow and her antics. Again, you tried and God rejoices in your determination. But He will never ask you to go into enemy grounds only for your marriage to be tempted.<p>Be strong together. Always remember that when God looks upon you, He sees also your h (one flesh). When you pray, you pray on behalf of your h (one flesh), when you suffer, God sees you both suffering (one flesh). Although parents, siblings, children are blood, they are gifts from God. God expects us to guard our marriages, our h's, our wives above all. <p>Keep praying for ow, God can change the hardest of hearts, I know first hand, because my h's heart (i thought) was the hardest in the whole world. God just continues to shed the layers. <p>You are in my prayers,
Julia<p>[ January 25, 2002: Message edited by: mnca6713julia3 ]</p>

Hi Tryin, I get so upset when I read posts like yours. What happened, how did things get so bad that you have stopped visitation? Do not kick yourself for the decesion you have made to stop it. I felt and still feel so bad that we are no longer having visitation with the oc. I used to look forward to the visits, my daughter loved having the oc over. In case you do not remember, we have had to stop visitation because of the accusations of abuse due to one bruise on the oc while the three kids were outside playing.
Now our lawyer advises us never to have the oc around our family, even after this is all cleared up. <p>It is painful, when you have opened your heart, your home and your life to a child only to have it thrown in your face. Please stay strong and remember you did the right thing, and you can not control the actions of others. The xow is the loser in this and in the long run years from now it will come back to bite her in the a##. I am in the process of putting together a memory folder, book ect for the oc. It will contain all the papers from court all the letters, bills, from our attorneys. All the pictures we have of him with his siblings and father, when he is old enough he can read it all and see that we tried and his mother was the one who was against everything, who ruined everything, who slandered his father and my family, then she will have to answer to her own son as to why she keep his father and silbings out of his whole childhood life. Stay strong and things will work out for the best. Peace to you and your family, Gabi

Tryin'<p>My dear we were in your shoes just a few short months ago. We too started with visitation.<p>Eventually we began to be seen as babysitter, chafuer, the food bank, emergency diaper service, etc. She began demanding we change the form of payement almost weekly. She would get bent out of shape when H told her she didn't have to call everytime OC had a runny nose. <p>Then what really blew her top is that H wouldn't sign some paper she needed from some government agency that was trying to help her out with rent. The paper would have had husband swear that he was paying her child support. <p>We have not yet had DNA and the support we were giving her was mutually agreed upon outside of court. She was fumed that H wouldn't acknowlege OC on an official document. He told her he'd be glad to if she'd pay for DNA, but until then.. no go.<p>A few weeks later she told him she's going to the courts. H told her...see ya there. Not another penny from his pocket until court ordered.<p>Do you know the hefer called a few weeks later saying "your daughter needs diapers." <p>Again he reminded her she must lie in the bed she makes.<p>They hate being put in their place.<p>Stay strong sweetie. You did the best you had with the hand you were dealt. God knows that too.<p>Now's a great time to concentrate you your marriage. Take advantage of this opportunity.<p>Perhaps you could start a journal to give to OC when they are of age. Documenting holidays and birthdays to show you thought of her during special times. Also, you could start buying savings bonds in her name, or open a savings account for her college education. <p>Just some ideas.<p>Good luck,
Z.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by tryin4sainthood:<p>Unsure...I dont know what to tell you. I thought we might be the exception to the rule. Every other bs told me that it wouldnt work, but we didnt seem to have as much of the same daily bullsh@t as everyone else. Boy was I wrong! I dont want to discourage anyone, but if I can save anyone else the heartache, I would like to do that. It is almost worse than d-day when you have to let an innocent child go. <p>Trying now that things are truly happening, me and H emailing exOW to set up visitation and her replying. I'm starting to think I truly don't want to deal with this woman (I use the term woman lightly) for the next 17 years. OC is only 13 months. If she was sane I would at least try but this hoe still wants my H. It doesn't matter that he doesn't acknowledge her. I'm PMS'ing but I really am not sure about this any more. Thanks for the input.<p>
Unsure

I know, I am not in your position, but I just had to say something here. It really makes me angry to see posts like this, and the pain that you guys are being put through! You have tried so hard to make the visitation work in the best interest of the child, and what does this OW(thinking Catnip's favorite meaning for that) do? Push you so far over the line, that you feel it best to stop visitation all together! <p>The thing that gets me is that even though some of them claim to have been lied to, made to believe that your H was divorced or even never married, they sure as he!! knew about you by the time the baby was born! Then they claim to need this or that for their baby, but don't give a schyt about your children needing new shoes for school, or lunch money for the week!<p>Yes, I do agree that the MM should take some sort of responsiblity, but if the OW is going to push for MM to be involved, the WHOLE FAMILY is going to be involved, like it or not!! <p>Also, it should be taken into account exactly how many children are involved when CS is determined! If OW has 3 children(especially if from different fathers) then it should be one flat rate per child, divided between each father. If MM has 3 children in the marriage, and one OC, again, one flat rate per child, with the 3 children of the marriage and the OC each getting an equal share! I feel it is completely unfair for the children and W's of the MM who get completely ignored when the CS is determined for the OC!!!!!!<p>I'm sorry, it's just been bugging me, and I felt the need to vent. Even though I do not find myself in these particular shoes, so to speak. I just hope that no one takes what I wrote the wrong way. I believe I made myself clear, but if not, Please, Ask me to expound first. It's been a long day [img]images/icons/rolleyes.gif" border="0[/img] <p>Love and prayers to all of you who find yourselves in this horrible, and difficult predicament.<p>Tigger

A little more background...exow goes through these tantrums about once every 6 weeks or so. She stated she is moving out of state and will send a postcard...<p>When she moved just to another parish (we live in Louisiana), she yanked oc out of daycare with no forwarding address or phone number. We were frantic for days. We tracked her down and another blow up ensued. Everything calmed down and we were on our way again.<p>We have no court order regarding visitation or cs. We have mutually agreed upon both for the last 11 months. We have been dedicated and faithful with both. However, due to h schedule, which changes every 6 weeks. Our visitation days are sometimes a mess. But we tell her as soon as we know we have to change. Depending on her mood, she is either fine or a raging witch.<p>When she lived near us, we saw him alot because he would stay with us when she worked overtime. It helped her out just fine then so she had no issues.<p>Well, my h and I are trying to move to Las Vegas. So when she brought up her move, he told her we were moving to Las Vegas. She went high and to the right. She mentioned how angry we were when she moved....DUH!!! She left without telling us where she was going or how to get in touch with her. Of course we were mad.<p>H told her he wanted to still see oc even after we moved. She then says we wont see him again. And then asks where her cs is! H reminds her that we dont have her address and since she wont let us see oc, how are we supposed to get it to her. So he says look, lets go to court then we both get what we want. You get cs and I get to see my son.<p>She doesnt want that because that would mean extended visits. And finally she gets to the heart of the matter...me. When she calls, I am bathing him, feeding him, or whatever. "What do you do?" "You are a terrible father!" "Cant you come visit him for an hour without a f@#king escort" BLAH, BLAH, BLAH<p>What she doesnt know or get is that h is usually videotaping the whole thing. We have hours and hours of footage and pictures that he took and shares with everyone he sees. And he does feed him, and change him, and play with him. Oh I cant stand this.<p>So anyway, they end with her saying that h will only get to see his son at the end of Feb. when my in-laws come so his father can meet oc. Then she says that is the last time h will see oc. <p>We know she wont pursue cs because then we will get visitation. H pointed out to her that we have all cell phone conversations documented, check stubs for cs, video tape, pictures, dates, times, letters and emails she sent...etc. We will get visitation. However, we know if we pursue it, she will continues to make life a living hell for everyone involved no matter what the court order says. <p>So here we are, exhausted. H has had enough. I am just trying to get him to think clearly and know that he has to live with whatever decision he makes. He is heartbroken and it kills me. I am trying to be strong for him but it is hard not to cry. I dont want him to see me hurting over this because this part is not his fault. No matter what anyone else says, this is ALL DUE TO EXOW. So any other opinions can stick it where the sun dont shine!!!!! [img]images/icons/mad.gif" border="0[/img] <p>The other kicker is that oc 1st birthday is Feb. 12th. We obviously cant see him and wont be able to celebrate it even some time that week. And I really dont know if I can bear to see oc again knowing that when he leaves our house, that will be it. I gotta go, I am crying.

t4sh,,, i read this when you first posted it and felt compelled to reply but was having computer problems. i have to agree with tigger in a more direct way though. not if ow wants to have your h involved with oc but instead if your h and you agree that it will work in your marriage then he has the right (whether ow likes ir or not) to be involved with his c. with this goes the natural fact that your h's w and c from your marriage will and should have a loving relationship with said oc. period. end of story. if ow doesn't like it tough s##t. <p>i can tell you this from first hand experience with my oldest and his mother. she wanted cs so i would pay for my "sins" so to speak. in turn i i took visitation. what she did not relize was how miserable my visitation would make her. fh and i just kept on with our regular visitation with my son. we never said a bad word about her or belittled her in any way in his presense. our families excepted him whole heartedly and treated him with no difference then any other sibling or relative (cousins, etc.). to this day he loves all his aunts. uncles, cousins, grandmas, grandpas, and who ever and they love him. <p>this whole point being that you and your h are now in the drivers seat if you want to steer the car. take advantage of it and have the relationship with oc if you two want it. simply show him constant love and compassion and i gaurantee the rewards will far outwiegh the down sides. don't let her make any demands on who can or can't be around oc when oc is with you and h. it is none of her damn business anyway. your h may not have custidy (hope i spelled that right) but he most definetly has equal parental rights during his visitations.<p>please these words may seem very direct but they are only meant to encourage those who seek to have a relationship with oc and are having ow try and stand in the way. DON'T LET HER.<p>good luck, pops

Dear Tryin,
I once told you that you don't have to "try" as you are already a "saint". I still think that.<p>I read this here over and over again.<p>I am glad that by summers end we gave up on trying to include oc.<p>Ow STILL makes it known that she will wait forever for h, till he wakes up and quits feeling sorry for me, and realizes what a gift she gave him.(oc). That there are dozens? more waiting to be born to h and her. That she would give him all the money he needs and never have another money problem(she could). Insists she was not a pass in the night and was better than a one night stand. H has said there isn't a spark left for her and that the lighter doesn't even have flints to spark. Regardless, she's a menace and we're done with her.<p>Most recently there were "threats" magic markered on the outside wall of h's office. We took pictures and made police report. Our lawyer thinks it's ow. We do too. UGH!!!!<p>I could go on and on.<p>Bottom line is that we continuously had her "in our face" over this and h was sick of it.<p>Sick of what had happened.<p>Sick of daily, weekly calls.<p>Sick of the destruction it was causing me and our son.<p>Finally asked me what I wanted to do, that he'd do ANYTHING to make it better.<p>I asked h to choose. Not between me and oc, but between what he really wanted to do. He hadn't bonded, nor feels anything but sadness where oc is concerned. He said he couldn't and wouldn't want to go on w/o me in his life.<p>We choose to negotiate cs and health insurance through lawyers, out of court. It's almost settled. Ow won't stop using our surname. We sought out yet another lawyers opinion. BOTH said go to court over it. In the "best interest of the child", being she's MARRIED w/other kids, a judge will make her use married name for oc so not to make oc "different".<p>I don't know if letters are allowed, but all of my in-laws would write one to say they feel disgraced over this and would wish their family name be kept for family, not for a wannabe.<p>All I can say is I tried and she bucked me in the most horrible ways, letters telling me I was with a loser in one half and about their escapades in the other half. Calls telling me "I'm the mother,honey and he's the father, so get used to it and stay out of it." Well, you guys remember, right?<p>Then there's that poor excuse for a priest that told my h not to turn his back on his flesh, and counseled ow/h together. H says he was a confused man back then and regrets every thing that happened. Realizes we should have been first in those sessions. Then again the priest was working w half a brain.<p>I wish you the best. I hope you heal and become whole again with your h.<p>Frankly, you don't need the constant stress. It's a real "downer" in marital happiness. Keeps too many thing in the forefront. As the "Beatles" say, "Let It Be".<p>Bless you sweetie.<p>love
Debi

Thank you all for all your support and input. I still have mixed emotions. To be honest, we cant afford the court costs and attorney fees to take to the next level. And I would hate to go thousands of dollars into debt when she is going to do whatever the hell she wants anyway and then we have to go to court some more.<p>Let's say we go to court and get what we want. We move to Vegas and fly back at Christmas to pick up oc. Exow is nowhere to be found....then what? Well over $600 in plane tickets, hours of travel, and no child! I cannot even bear the thought. <p>I realize that is a lot of what ifs but this is sooo tiring.<p>Then I think, but oc doesnt have anyone thinking about him. He needs his father and I think his father will never be right again if he feels in any way that he abandoned his son. UUUUGGGGHHHH!<p>For those of you that have gone to court to get visitation, does it help? And if you dont mind sharing, about how much have you spent overall to get this matter resolved? I just dont know what to do and I want to be sure before we leave. Once we move, court will be impossible. <p> [img]images/icons/confused.gif" border="0[/img]

Trying,
please don't give up without a REAL fight. I'm not implying that the two of you didn't try whole-heartedly, but now, the **#( gloves have to come off.<p>I think pops put it best..she has no control over what will or will not happen when the two of you visit w/ the baby. If you wanted to keep him ALL WEEKEND LONG LOCKED AWAY IN A CABIN TO YOURSELF, she doesn't have a say in it.<p>The driver's seat is the best approach. This is how we did it.
1. At first, w/out the courts involved, she tried to dictate the whens and wheres of visitation. Ofcourse she had to be present and for almost 4 months???
2. Mediation produced much of the same type of demand. Same cr$p different format.
3. When we finally had our date before the judge, he outright told her that my H could get sole custody if he wanted it. Her mouth dropped to the floor and we haven't had a problem out of her ever since then. We have very liberal visitations, but we decided we'd take it slow the next couple of months and build up to extended weekend visits. BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING ABOUT THE PREVIOUS STATEMENT IS THAT WE DECIDED THAT WE WOULD SLOW THE SCHEDULE DOWN. We didn't have to comply to her 'woman-scorned wisheds'.<p>Heres what we did....my H filed all the paperwork for cs and visitation. That cost about $60.00. Then, we had to go to mediation for two sessions, free. After the second mediation was a bust, we hired a lawyer (we'd been consulting with her throughout the case. She was the one that notarized the papers filed by my H in the beginning). Because we had a consultation relationship with her she allowed us to pay the $500.00 retainer and so far that's all we've had to pay.<p>I WILL WARN YOU....IF YOUR CURRENT CS AMOUNT IS NOT IN COMPLIANCE W/ YOUR STATE LAWS, THEN BE PREPARED TO PAY MORE...but that's only if you decide to go for visitation w/ her having sole custody. The way the two of you have conducted yourselves, I don't see why you couldn't file for sole custody yourselves. She doesn't seem very stable for a mom.<p>My prayers are with you trying....please let me know if I can give you more info. I'd be willing to give you my email address for more chat if you like.

Well, we talked to our lawyer today. He is checking on costs. He told us since we dont have a court order for cs we wont owe any back support if we quit paying. According to our lawyer, and the state of Louisiana, you cant be ordered to pay back support until a court order is in place demanding cs to begin with. Once the court order is in place then, we have to technically "start" paying.<p>Our lawyer also said that if we move, we will have to be awarded visitation for at least half the summer with us. We have six months from when she moves from the parish of his birth to file. <p>H also spoke with exow today. She is still pissing and moaning. H told her that we can go to court. He said we will get 6 months each until he goes to school. She said "you cant have him" in the same breath that she whined that he doesnt see him every two weeks like originally agreed upon. Sooooo, she wants us to see him but in her way not the way we can do...<p>H keeps telling her that we will go to court if she wont allow us to see him. She keeps whining about how she doesnt want us to take him for more than two days at a time. H told her the judge would award us visitation every two weeks at this point, but that only means she has to allow us to see him every two weeks not that we have to see him every two weeks. So she didnt say much after that. <p>H spent 40 minutes on the phone with her. Most of it trying to get her to respond to his comments or questions. He called and told her we are picking him up Wednesday night. She asked when he was coming home and H told her when SHE comes to get him. So, I am trying to slowly work with h to see that court is the only way to go, but he doesnt want to spend the money. <p>I think anything under $1000 to get this straightened out is worth it. We pay $300 now but we will probably have to pay about 450 after. We cant afford that much, but none of us can afford what we pay. So who knows. I think h also knows she wont pursue cs because she doesnt want us to have more visitation so he figures let sleeping dogs lie.<p>He is just really tired of dealing with her bull pucky. Soooo...i dont know.