2long, ula, mom of 5, jl,wib, and, of course,
dear friends cat and tigger,<p>Each of you deserves a giant hug for turning a horrid thread into a helping thread. I tried, in my usual sweet style [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] to shed some light on the reasons for the hostility that was being thrown at the original poster but wrote the thread off completely when I also believed it was "hijacked". So, I am amazed to see so many responses and they are even polite and helpful [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] <p>You guys have done a tremendous job and it is wonderful to know that such sensitive, caring and persistent people are standing by on MB to guide those in need. I wish you all the same success with your personal problems ...<p>love,
heavenly

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>CMiranda,
What you and OM is doing is called "triangulation": making a triangle. So long as you have a relationship to each other, giving thought and energy to each other, that is the very energy and commitment drained away from your marriages. You don't have to FULLY commit yourself to your marriages, because you've got this OtherPerson hanging on the sidelines. You and OM are afraid to cut those ties and see if you can really make your marriages work. It isn't healthy.<p>Prayers,
J</strong><hr></blockquote><p>I never heard of that term "triangulation". You seem to be right on the mark with that. It isn't a conscious plan to do what you described but I have to admit, you are right. The most difficult thing for me is the huge gaping hole in my thought process which has developed over all these years. I have a very large void in my thinking process because it is so natural just to fill it with thoughts of him. I know it isn't healthy and I am really trying to stop it and change for real, not just go through the motions.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mom of five:<p>"I couldnt say if what we handled this the right way, but I know my daughter has more people to love her, and aside from a few problems, it is going well."<p>I am in a similar situation with regard to child. I guess you never really know for sure if you made the right decisions but all you can do is try to give your D a happy and loving family. Of course your being courageous and giving your D life is awesome despite selfish response from your ex-OM. That was my only concern was at the time I decided to raise child as my H's. I don't know how I would have handled being told by OM to have abortion. My God, that must have been so hard to deal with. Fortunately, my OM told me not to feel bad about myself or baby and we'd all be fine somehow. I guess the most important aspect of that statement is that the baby is happy and healthy and is loved and wanted with limited casualtys. That is all I could ask for and for me, keeping the secret hurts but I feel as if my needs or wants don't matter compared to keeping H and child secure and happy as well as sheltering OM. I'm at a crossroads now in trying to decide if I should take advice I've gotton here and to into couseling to determine how/if I should reveal secrets of A and paternity of my son.
How do you deal with your H and ex hating eachother?

cm,
do you have icq

cm,
I dont always handle their hate for each other well, although I understand my husbands hate for OM, I feel he should be very careful what he says and does around my daughter, he thinks I am too nice to OM. But we are talking about the man who has my baby on occasion and if I start crap with him or argue, I dont want D to have that crisis in her life, because it is not her fault.
Om hates husband because he wants him gone, I think he feels if he gets rid of him , he can just have two families. But I dont want that and it will not happen. I have been through enough. so for now.
I meet with om and sometimes with his wife as well and exchange my daughter, I welcome them in my home when they pick her up and share pictures any time I have them. Other wife is a little more selfish , but I know it is because she is insecure, she knows how close we were and she is afraid, beng involved with daughter will start A over, so I try to over look little remarks and such.
wife has even asked to pick up daughter alone and spend time with her, I am NOT ready for that and have not allowed it, and OM and husband supports my decision.
I am not in your situation so I cant say what to do, I do know that keeping it a secret hurts you as well as those you love. Some day the truth will come out and it may cause more hurt when it does. Maybe when baby is younger it would be better. But I odnt know your husband and if this would drive him away.
My husband thought baby was his at first and also told me to get an abortion, I think that hurt worse than other man telling me so. But seems he was having an affair at the same time and planning on leaving and this threw a wrench in his plans.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by mom of five:<p>Why does the secret have to come out if I choose not to tell? I admire you for your honestly but on the other hand, I don't want OM, as his situation stands today, to be involved with my son. I won't allow my child to be second to anyone and I think that is what will happen. I know how it feels to be sitting around on the sidelines waiting for OM to have time for me. He is the type who barely has time for his own kids, his W spends alot of time alone except for weekends, so my son would be competing with their time with OM. I know him well enough to believe that he can't manage another child. Am I wrong to make this decision on my own?

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Why does the secret have to come out if I choose not to tell?<hr></blockquote>

The secret HAS to come out because of at least 3 reasons. The first and foremost is that if you choose to keep this secret, you are, by omission, lying to your H about the state of your M! Do you really want your M to be built on lies? The second reason is that you are cheating your H out of deciding for himself about your M! I know it's a hard thing to think about, but he may not want to stay married due to the betrayal! But, by you keeping this all from him you are controlling his life with out him knowing. Finally, last but definately not least, you are keeping him from deciding what he wants to do about your S! He has every right to decide whether he is to be your S's Daddy or not! You keeping this secret is again deciding for him! He is not a baby that you need to "do what's best" for him! He is the only one who knows what he will do, but you have to let him decide for himself!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I don't want OM, as his situation stands today, to be involved with my son. I won't allow my child to be second to anyone and I think that is what will happen. I know how it feels to be sitting around on the sidelines waiting for OM to have time for me. He is the type who barely has time for his own kids, his W spends alot of time alone except for weekends, so my son would be competing with their time with OM. I know him well enough to believe that he can't manage another child. <hr></blockquote><p>Why does xOM even need to be involved in your S's life, especially if your H chooses to raise his as he has been, as his own son? Your xOM is the classic "cakeman", having his M and kids from that, and keeping you on the sidelines with your S! I can almost guarantee that's why he is telling you that this forum isn't worth it, and to stop coming here! He enjoys his life as it is, and you are ruining that for him! If you truly want to save your marriage, you need to cut all ties w/xOM! If he is not involved now, and your H decides to keep S as his own, then leave everything as it is! But, tell xOM that it is completely over, and you don't want to hear from or see him in any way again!<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Am I wrong to make this decision on my own? <hr></blockquote><p>Yes, you are wrong to make the decission of how your M is going to be alone! You need to come clean with your H about everything! I'm not talking details and such, just about the fact that there was something wrong with your M over 6 yrs ago, and due to that, you had the A, which resulted in your S! Give him the chance to decide what he wants to do! I would also show him this site, and that he's not alone in his situation! He may be in the minority, but he is definately not alone! Also, that it can be done, either way, with or without visitation/CS! You both need to learn to work together on your M! <p>I can't remember where I saw this, and I am going to be paraphrasing big time here, but a M should never be 50/50! It should be 100/100! And by that I mean that both the H and the W should be giving their ALL, their 100% to the marriage! You are taking that away from your H by keeping him "in the dark"!<p>Well, I don't know if I have any more to add at this point. I hope there aren't too many typo's as I was getting kids to school, and keeping Abbi happy, and I'm generally skatterbrained right now anyway! I hope that I helped, and didn't seem to run of at the mouth(hands [img]images/icons/wink.gif" border="0[/img] )<p>Tigger

CM, The missing person in your decision-making is your husband (NOT OM!!). Your spouse is suppose to be your best friend and helpmate. In recovery after an affair, you should present a united front together. <p>Triangulation is something I learned about in couseling (highly recommend it!!)<p>I hope you get counseling (money well spent). You can even get phone counseling from the owners of MB. There is also a chapter at the end of the book "After the Affair" by Janis Abram Spring (excellent book!) on deciding whether to tell when you are keeping one a secret (but it does not include any OC considerations!).<p>As for your child competing with W and other kids for OM's time... I get upset thinking about it from the W's point of view. Do you not also consider how your A (and contact between OM and OC) takes away from his W and kids at home?!?!<p>My H is military. I, the W, and our children already have second seats behind his job, by nature of military life. XOW wanted H to treat OC "just like" our children... now, unless OC LIVES WITH US, that is IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!!!!!!! The arrogance just floors me. She also expected H (just H, didn't care about how it affected our marriage or our children) to visit OC (we live far away), etc. etc. We don't have enough time with H as it is. I'm certainly not going to send him thousands of miles away to spend time alone anywhere near the woman he had an affair and child with!! Neither is that my idea of a "fun" family vacation spot!! I have nothing against the child, but there's limit to what is humanly possible or reasonable. <p>I hope I've been of some small help.
J

CM,<p>I thought something you said was very very important and wanted to comment on it. You said <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>I never heard of that term "triangulation". You seem to be right on the mark with that. It isn't a conscious plan to do what you described but I have to admit, you are right. The most difficult thing for me is the huge gaping hole in my thought process which has developed over all these years. I have a very large void in my thinking process because it is so natural just to fill it with thoughts of him. I know it isn't healthy and I am really trying to stop it and change for real, not just go through the motions. <hr></blockquote><p>CM, you have already won over half the battle. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] By recognizing what has and is going on within you, you are coming out of the "fog" as they say here. You are starting to realize the placing of things within your life. You are doing well CM, you really are.<p>Just one question. Did you ever read UsedLongAgo's thread, the one I bookmarked for you about a page ago?? If you haven't please do it. I think it will help you see some other things. I cannot predict which they will be for you, but I think it will help you.<p>God Bless,<p>JL

CM:<p>I hope things are going better for you. I just got back from a weekend away with my W, and can tell she's still in a fog regarding OM, but I have to hang back a bit and let her work on that herself. At least she starts IC today. I think that the advice you've been getting lately is very good. That any time and energy you devote to even just thinking about OM detracts from quality time and care you can give to your family and H. This is what my W can't see yet, even though it should be obvious to someone with an anthropology background all the way up through her M.S. degree. But I clearly LB bigtime if I try to point that out to her. Injuring her pride should be done by her, not by me, when I'm trying to make our M a safe place for her to come home to (even if it's just mentally, since OM isn't readily accessible). <p>At the same time, we don't have the OC problem you're faced with on top of recovering from your A. I can't even imagine how hard that's going to be. Thankfully there are people here that know what you're going through. I can only comment on the things we're going through that are similar, and even based on just that, I give you a lot of credit for sticking with this thread, knowing how hard that is alone! Definitely get C'ing as soon as you can. Do it with the plan that you intend to tell your H about A and child, and you will be able to tell quickly whether the C you meet with is a good one or whether you need to find another one. <p>Persevere!!

[QUOTE]Originally posted by 2long:
[QB]CM:<p>It's good to hear from you 2Long. <p>"I just got back from a weekend away with my W, and can tell she's still in a fog regarding OM, but I have to hang back a bit and let her work on that herself."
You are very patient and wise to recognize that she needs to do just that. In my experience, the A had alot more to do with me and less to do with my H in regards to who we were as individuals. It took quite a while for our relationship to fall apart before the EA began, and so it will take time to repair it. <p>"That any time and energy you devote to even just thinking about OM detracts from quality time and care you can give to your family and H. This is what my W can't see yet, even though it should be obvious to someone with an anthropology"<p>You're absolutely correct on it taking away from H and family. If your W hasn't found out yet that an A is a state of suspension. It is as if you are mid-way to something else but you can never get there because the door to the next level is closed. How frustrating that is! So, to feel better the only way without ending M and persuing other R, was it to get off the fence so to speak. I feel so much better mentally, I can't even tell you how much. Your W must find this for herself. The "fog" lifts but then it returns, over and over again, but with less thickness. Its being able to recognize this: I feel better when I'm away from the frustrations of the A. She will in time. Education has nothing to do with this, unfortunately. <p>"Thankfully there are people here that know what you're going through. I can only comment on the things we're going through that are similar, and even based on just that, I give you a lot of credit for sticking with this thread, knowing how hard that is alone!"<p>I can't tell you that I wish I didn't have to face the OC aspect of my situation. I wouldn't change having him for anything in this world. He is the light of my life. Ironically, he is what brought me back to H. I seen what kind of guy he really is and what kind of guy OM is by comparison. I always thought OM was cats meow. Now I see my H in new light.
2long, I would not have stuck with this if you hadn't spoken up. You were the first one who made me realize that I'm not alone. <p>"Definitely get C'ing as soon as you can. Do it with the plan that you intend to tell your H about A and child, and you will be able to tell quickly whether the C you meet with is a good one or whether you need to find another one."<p>This is the kind of advice I need to hear. My ex-OM confessed to his priest 3 years ago and priest basically told him to end it with me, keep secret, and mend M. Well, he did break up with me. It lasted less than 1 month. I'm not looking for redemption, only real happiness with my H.

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>cm,
do you have icq</strong><hr></blockquote><p>What is that?

JL:
Thanks for taking the time to offer me feedback on "triangulation" as Jenny outlined. <p>"CM, you have already won over half the battle. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] By recognizing what has and is going on within you, you are coming out of the "fog" as they say here. You are starting to realize the placing of things within your life. You are doing well CM, you really are."<p>Thanks for the boost, I sure needed it. I'm feeling better everyday (not great but not in complete despair as I was before) that I chip away at the "triangle" that I've been living in for all these years. It gets more painful before it gets better but I think I really am seeing glimpses of daylight finally. <p>"Did you ever read UsedLongAgo's thread, the one I bookmarked for you about a page ago?? If you haven't please do it. I think it will help you see some other things. I cannot predict which they will be for you, but I think it will help you."<p>Yes, I did, thank you (I think) for that. It scared the hell out of me though.

CM,<p>I am sorry it scared you. On the other hand, it is good that it did. How is that for a definite "maybe" type response. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] <p>I guess I was hoping you would see that after all ULA's W did, he did stick with her. I was hoping you would see that not telling doesn't mean the story doesn't get told eventually for some of the strangest reasons. I was hoping you would see that in his latest posts his older son appears to be coming around.<p>There is sooo much pain in ULA's posts, but there is such strong optimism in there as well. CM, if there is one thing you will see and learn here, it that this place is populated with people strong enough to hope and sincere enough to try. It is what makes it so addictive [img]images/icons/shocked.gif" border="0[/img] , and so compelling.<p>You are doing well and gradually as you continue to withdraw from OM, you will begin to see things in a new light. I think you already are from your most recent posts.<p>Nevertheless, this is tough stuff and not for wimps. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] There is still much to accomplish in your life. <p>God Bless,<p>JL<p>
PS: Is your son with OM your only child? I was never clear on that. Don't have to answer if you don't feel like it. Just curious.

Cmiranda <p>I know that this must seem very scary to you now and all that I can do for you is assure you that in our case the marriage is going to be saved. We are closer now than ever before and are no longer hiding our feelings and emotions. Granted we do have serious concerns for our relationship with our sons but I feel that you are young enough to save yourself from the same fate by introducing truth to the children at the appropriate times under the advisement of a good counselor. <p>
I cannot say that if I were a younger man how I would have reacted but I did surprise even myself in my conviction to keep the M together. I feel that you are aware that there are no iron clad guarantees of success in these situations, but I see a strong desire on your part to put this part of your life behind you. Perhaps this will be enough. You are a strong woman as you have shown by admitting a need to change your life. I would encourage to give your H a chance. It may be the best thing you can do for "yourself" in the long run.<p>I am pulling for you every day and wish you the best.<p>God Bless<p>Usedlongago

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Just Learning:
[QB]CM,<p>"I guess I was hoping you would see that after all ULA's W did, he did stick with her. I was hoping you would see that not telling doesn't mean the story doesn't get told eventually for some of the strangest reasons. I was hoping you would see that in his latest posts his older son appears to be coming around."<p>I did see all that you have hoped for me to get from his story. I am digesting it and wow it's scary.<p>"Nevertheless, this is tough stuff and not for wimps. [img]images/icons/smile.gif" border="0[/img] There is still much to accomplish in your life."<p>This is an understatement. 2Long gave me the nudge I needed to be one of the wimps and leave here after my baptism by fire.<p>Yes, my son with OM is my only child.<p>Thank you again for your words of hope.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Usedlongago:
[QB]Cmiranda <p>Thank you ULA for your feedback. I wish I had a crystal ball. I am afraid to ruin the lives of the ones I do love the most. Sadly it took me took long to figure out that I do still love my H but I have a precious son from all of this and so I can not regret. I want to put my head in the sand so I don't know that I really am a strong woman. I'm just trying to survive. How can I put this OM behind me if I tell my H? If my H leaves me then my son will lose his real Daddy.<p>If you could go back to a time when your life was what you thought it was, would you?

Cmiranda<p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>If you could go back to a time when your life was what you thought it was, would you? <hr></blockquote><p>No because I realize now that what I was living was not in any way real, through no fault of my own. I have come to understand why I was so introverted and insecure. My W never realized that she was partialy responsible for the way I acted towards her. We both like who I am right now although we are still getting to know me. [img]images/icons/grin.gif" border="0[/img] (I know that sounds a little out there but it is true). I also would not be as close to my sons as I have become and still would not be able to hug them and tell them that I love them.

I was living a lonely life of isolation and didn't know the joy of allowing other people to love me. <p>Happiness means much more to me now because I know that I don't have to wait for it, it was there all along just waiting for me to enjoy it.
It has been the hardest thing I have ever done, but accepting that the past cannot be changed has allowed me to grow in my life and in our marriage. <p>I'm sure you still feel as though you are going to hurt OM but he has already hurt you more than you realize and he should not be a factor in the equation. I know it is easy for me to say but he can only hurt you more now.<p>Please allow your H a chance to experience all that marriage can be.<p>It is not unusual to feel that you are not strong at times and God knows there were times that I didn't think that I was strong enough to get through another day, but I feel like I have never been stronger now. I know that you can make it.<p>God Bless<p>Usedlongago

ULA, CM:<p>ULA: "Cmiranda<p>quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
If you could go back to a time when your life was what you thought it was, would you?
------------------------------------------------------------------------<p>No because I realize now that what I was living was not in any way real, through no fault of my own. I have come to understand why I was so introverted and insecure. My W never realized that she was partialy responsible for the way I acted towards her. We both like who I am right now although we are still getting to know me. (I know that sounds a little out there but it is true). "<p>This is so similar to the conversations my W and I had yesterday with our MC and afterwards. I haven't read your story yet, ULA, but I will try to this evening when I get time. I came away from our MC meeting feeling pretty much better than before, but surprised by one thing. My W has been saying that "I never listened" to her all those years ago when the A started, and then the MC said that when my W was spelling out her frustrations, it didn't seem like I was listening, that I was just doing the "physical contact" thing - holding her hand and stroking her back. I guess I just always have been less verbal (partly because she's SO verbal, but partly because I compose myself better if I have more time, and so don't get a word in very often when the discussion is "animated"). MC thought I was wanting to go back to when things were better just before D-day, based on how I'd brought it up (better because W had decided to focus on M on her own - I didn't know why they were better at the time). I tried to explain that I don't, but that I wanted to figure out why things worked when they did, so I could focus on those things.<p>I am amazed at how many men have this kind of problem, and how many women have my W's frustration with it. I try to explain this to my W, but she doesn't seem to get it. <p>In the end, I slept very strangely last night, with all kinds of odd relationship dreams, most of them depressing, and so today I'm not sure I'm going to be of much help here. My W left for the field for the next 3 days, and at least told me she'll miss me. I have to tell you, though, that I'm having one heckuva hard time figuring out at what point I'm not being attentive enough (the problem that led to the A) and at what point am I being too clingy. Tearing me apart. <p>I guess my point is that, even in my situation, which though similar is nothing near as intense at the moment as yours, CM, I still experience some rather extreme ups and downs, and can't always tell where they're going or what it is that I want in the end.<p>Sorry to end this on a low note.

2long,<p>I'm not sure if I understood your last post completely but the part about you not being very verbal caught my eye.<p>My H is also not very verbal. When in the midst of my affair my H would ask me why or what was making me do this. I told him that the OM made me feel as no one had ever made me feel before. OM would almost constantly tell me how beautiful I was, how intelligent, funny, sexy, sensitive, caring and on and on. He wrote me unbelievable love letters. These things he did almost non stop for the entire 3 yrs. My H on the other hand had never done these things even in the beginning of our relationship. My H's reply was " I guess I just don't have a silver tongue but it doesn't mean that I don't think those things." <p>Now, a little while ago I posted that all my H has wanted from me now is to hug and kiss him for no reason, be happy to see him when he gets home from work, make him feel like I am happy to be with him, etc. I can't remember if it was pops or JL who couldn't believe that this was all he wanted from me after the A. It got me to thinking about it too. But now I see that those are the things that are important to him because he isn't a very verbal person. I guess for him actions speak louder than words.