Hi,

When we married, I knew that Mr. J had not had the conversion experience of being born again that is so common to many Protestants and many of my Protestant friends would have warned me about not marrying someone who did not share that experience with me.

As I have grown, I no longer believe that that one moment of conversion is necessary to be a Christian. (I am Methodist and it appears that Charles Weslley never had that one defining moment but rather became converted through a series of moement that were a "strange warming of the heart") The strongest Christian woman I know is a Catholic now Episcopal who never had that moment but shares the closest walk with God I have ever seen. That explains where I stand right now.

So, on to Mr. J. . . . When we were dating we discussed faith thoroughly. We attended Mass together all during our courtship and for many, many years into our marriage. I knew that his faith was a foundation of his life. I knew that he prayed earnestly every day and that he examined his life for sin and relied on the redemption of Christ for his salvation. Neither one of us would have married a non-believer.

Now he says he needs to be honest with me. He believes that God is "like Santa Claus for grown-ups." It is for people who aren't strong enough to realize that we are in this alone. Intelligent people don't believe in God.

I was shocked to my core and cried for hours for the first time in a very long time. I always felt that we had a common basis. I knew he had slipped from his faith walk; I assumed it was because of his affair and how he had dismantled his integrity and character in that and so many other ways. I assumed that he would come back to it. I saw D-day as a way to build a closer marriage and a spiritual life.

I felt so humiliated and degraded and I told him so. I said I felt he had just called me stupid and weak. I told him my faith was all that had pulled me through the past two years, that my faith (which had always been a strong, quiet part of my life) was now out in the open. I felt that for the first time in my life I had shared truly and openly with him how much my faith mattered to me and now I felt like I danced naked in front of someone who finds me disgusting. I am humiliated and exposed.

He said he never meant to call me names and that losing his faith felt like the total crush of when a kid finds out there is no Santa Claus. He said he didn't mean that I was dopey enough to still believe in Santa Claus. I said I felt like he held up the cornerstone of my life and found it repugnant.

He also said his faith crisis began long before the affair and that he can't reconcile a loving God with pain and suffering. He prayed for miracluous cures for his grandparents fatal illnesses and he got no answers. I said I pray for comfort and strength not miracles.

He said he will not be going to church any longer and he is going to tell his parents that he has no faith left. He hasn't even had the courage so far to tell them that we are raising the boys in my church, not his. He almost never goes to either church but when we are visiting his parents he always goes to Mass. I said I would not put on a sham for the sake of his parents peace of mind. If he won't go with me regularly to my church or his, I will make no pretense to go with him and fool his parents into thinking this is what we normally do. He said he won't go to Mass with them anymore either. He is going to start a life of raidcal honesty--with himself and with everyone around him.

I appreciate knowing that he has no faith left. It explains a lot about him. That is information I need. What I hated was his delivery and what I felt to be his mockery of my beliefs. He says he never meant to mock me, so I am going to have to accept him at his word on that one.

We also discussed his funeral plans. He wants no service of any type--no gathering, no anything. I am not even allowed to go to the grave site. He will be stuck in the ground by strangers. I told him I wasn't sure I wanted to be married to a man whose death I was not allowed to mourn. We agreed that I can hold some sort of simple service (no body present) with my family only. He doesn't want his family there and he doesn't want people "lying" about what a good person he was because it wasn't true or talking about what promise he had early in life and how he just fell apart at the end. He says that he wants me to be spared being torn apart by his family for not providing a funeral Mass like they did when his uncle's children did not have a traditional Catholic funeral for him. He thinks no one will care that he is gone.

Yup, he's depressed and I don't know what to do about it. He sees a counselor but he won't see anyone who can prescribe anything. I think he hides from the counselor how desperately depressed he is. Every two weeks we seem to be having these crises and then he picks up again. Yup, Cat, I know your opinion. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> I just don't know what to do about someone who doesn't want medical help. He says that he will consider seeing the psychiatric nurse practitioner that he was seeing before. He is taking a couple of days to think about it. I believe that sooner or later I will be a widow to a suicide and I don't think that I can prevent it nor help him.

He asked why I was still married to him and would I have been there if it hadn't been for getting the kids out of Russia. I had no answer at that moment. I regret not having anything good to say but I was so beat down by the athiest comments and the funeral stuff that I was speechless. I was also feeling so beat up, so drained and so tired of taking care of him that I had nothing left to give at that moment.

I did tell him that I had expected a better recovery than we have had. I expected him to come back further than he has and to heal more completely. Why did he have the affair and I am comforting him? Why did I recover and he still wallows? Why do some people grow when faced with tragedy and others just quiver in a puddle of self-pity? I have a feeling that the answer to those questions goes a long way to explaining why some people have affairs. (Sorry, not meaning to offend those solid and true members of our board who have been on the other side of an affair but I just can't see it as anything other than truly self-indulgent, self-pitying behavior.)

What I have done is plan warm and wonderful family things over the past couple of weeks. His worst times are when he is by himself so I am giving him very little alone time. I make him come with me and the kids as we are doing fun autumn/Halloween things. I am keeping him busy and when we are all having fun I lean over and tell him "This is why I am still married to you."

MJ

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 11:15 AM: Message edited by: MaryJanes ]</small>

MJ, you have had so much strength with all this. I understand your H's sense of futility. I think my H is in same boat. My H has a Christian faith, but other than admitting he was a sinner, I have not seen his faith help him during all this. It has barely helped me, either.

I think your H does need meds, as you also know. Go to the nurse practitioner with him-or at least get him to go. His attitude a month from now on antidepressants may be much different.

I also sense your H feeling the pain of the life he has led, and believe some of that must be felt by the WS to truly heal. I have not seen that from my H first hand-and wish I did. Or at least have him confront that with a counselor. I think the road to healing is through pain, often.

MJ,

Your assessment of things is very intelligent and your efforts at warm family times are very Plan A. Great job, MJ, under difficult circumstances!!

I don't know much about meds and depression, but your H sounds like a good candidate!! I think he needs help, not just the loss of faith, but the funeral bit, etc. Even atheists can believe life is for the living and the living have a right to mourn their losses... for him to deny you that and comment about people lying he's a good person, those are seriously off-kilter to me. Everyone sins, but he hasn't forgiven himself. Do you think he's at risk for suicide??

"He says he never meant to mock me, so I am going to have to accept him at his word on that one." I'd believe him, MJ, on that one. People in pain often hurt others without even trying. It sounds like he's just being honest about his own pain and depression (even if he doesn't recognize it as pain and depression, you know?). His lack of belief doesn't take away from your faith, but I think the difference hurts a marriage. One of the books I bought this year is "Surviving a Spiritual Mismatch" by Lee and Leslie Strobel.

If he is willing to read them, there's some great Christian apologetics books out there--I've been reading them all year! The best one I've found on suffering and God is by Peter Kreeft "Making Sense Out of Suffering" (and he writes it assuming both atheists and Christians are reading it).

Forgive me if this is jumbly. Gotta go.

Prayers for healing,
J

<small>[ October 21, 2002, 05:10 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Wow... Your H says that intelligent people don't believe in God but the Word says (which I'm sure you already know) that the fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and the fool says in his heart, there is no God... Wow... I can't even begin to imagine your state of shock. I admire you for sticking to your beliefs and faith that has gotten you and your marriage and your family through all that has happened in your recent lives... Keep the faith! Keep praying for your H. I know you will...

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 06:08 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

Dear Mary Janes....

I still believe in Santa Clause. And in God and Our Lord, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. But, there was a time when cynicism got the best of me and I turned away from God for three years and I only just started to pray again this past year.

Bipolar, like your husband, told me a year ago that he no longer beleived in God and did not believe that there was a God. My reaction was shock, disbelief, and fear for his immortal soul.

He had always seemed so spiritual and his unshaking faith in God was one of the primary things I fell in love with and drew me to him. I knew I wanted a Godly man.

But, when Bipolar made this tragic announcement, it shook MY world because it seemed another important part of my husband had left me. It was another betrayal in a way because it seemed once again I had been "fooled" into thinking my husband was something he was not.

It took a few days of feeling like a tightrope walker with no net before I realized that my faith was in God and not in Bipolar and for some rreason, Bipolar was going through severe depression, suicidal thoughts and like Paul, questioning his faith and rejecting God. It made sense to me that Bipolar's fall from grace would also include a fall from grace with God and that this was a temporary set back and that I needed to stpe out of the way and let the expert (God) do what He will with my husband.

I was powerless and God is all powerful. If God is the creator of Heaven and Earth, it must be God's will that Bipolar question his faith and reject it for a time so God could clear the decks to work on Bipolar further. I decided it wasn't up to me to push Bipolar into going to Mass or picking up his prayer book every day because God is in control and I knew that if I prayed for Bipolar, God would answer this all important prayer of drawing this sheep back into the fold.

Throughout the scriptures there are many instances of sheep getting lost and finding there way back or Christ finding His lost sheep and returning them to the fold. Why should Bipolar or your hsuband be any different? This is God's call.

For whatever reason, these too men are experiencing a challenging spiritual crisis but they are not lost. They THINK there is no God but they don't really beleive it in their hearts.

They can intellectualize the existence of God all they want but the evidence of God's existence is undeniable. If there is suffering in this world, it has nothing to do with God. God did not create the suffering, we did, and our ancestors did in the Garden of Eden and by our own continuing willfullness and turning away from Him.

Our govenor is Jesse Ventura. He is a blockhead and no intellectual genius to be sure. There was a rift a couple years ago when he proclaimed gay day and a parade or other nonsense yet refused a Day of Prayer because he, too, did not believe in God or religion and called faith a weakness. So if your hsuband just thinks high brows are the only people arrogant enough to say God is dead, there is a blockhead govenor-wrestler who concurs. I wouldn't want to be in that self serving idiot's camp.

Mary Janes, I truly beleive that the only thing you can do is to live by example and pray for your husband and get out of the way and let go and let God do what He needs to do to bring His sheep back to the flock.

Bipolar's faith is returning in increments. Yesterday, he brought out his prayer book and was excited about a sermon for the day that fit our situation. He seems hopeful again and his heart has softened.

You and your hsuband are in my thoughts and prayers...

Love,

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ October 22, 2002, 10:12 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

My dear friend Catnip,

I was waiting for your reply. I had a feeling you had been where I am now. Where our Hs twins separated at birth?

You perfectly summed up my feelings at being told this by Mr. J. I felt betrayed and that we had lost what I believed was a shared value. I too knew I wanted a Godly man, a man who shared my faith and who would live true to the principles that we both said were important. I have said over and over again that I had that for 9 years of our marriage, I lost it for 7 years, and I have confidence that he can become what he once was. Thanks for reminding me that my faith lies in God and not in man, not even my man.

I continue to try to get him to a doctor. I know he needs one. I need him to get better. I can't keep carrying our entire family forever.

My plan of keeping him busy is helping and he is even beginning to reengage with us on his own. He is helping with homework and starting to help around the house some.

Most importantly, he is helping me put the kids to bed at night instead of staying on the couch staring at the ceiling or the idiot box (his drug of choice). Bedtime is, for me, the most pleasant time of the day with our kids. It has always saddened me that he didn't participate. It is when they tell me all their secrets of their difficult previous life. Mr. J wonders how come they tell me so much and they don't tell him. It is because I spend that quiet hour with them each night and make a safe atmosphere for telling stories. I am more than happy to expand the circle and welcome Mr. J in. It is his rightful place.

I swear I am going to call the Harley's radio show this Thursday and ask what advice they have on how the exWS heals. There isn't much here for them.

MJ

MJ,

I'm sorry I wasn't more help to your thread. However, if you do get more info. on healing for WS, I would love to hear it! Please share.

XOW sent pictures of OC recently, with nasty comments on the back meant to induce guilt, (even one of place they spent time together at); she really IS psychotic!! H feels he has to apologize profusely to me every time this happens, berates himself as a husband; he stays depressed longer than I do... It's just awful.

Best wishes to all,
J

We had a long heart-to-heart yesterday (by phone when I was at work). He called to apologize for everything he had said. He was mad at the world, he had been praying for things he wasn't getting and he was furious at God. Says he confessed his sin that same night and that he was ashamed of what he had said to me and that is why it took him ten days to apologize to me.

He had been reading on the Internet for proof of God. I suggested that it was probably not the best place to look. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

We agreed to work on growing his spiritual life. We talked about things we are liable to get answers for (strength, grace, courage, peace) and those we are unlikely to get answers for (Please God, don't let me suffer the natural consequences of my own sin.")

I am feeling much better. Thank you all for your help. Jenny, what made you think you weren't a help? Because I responded directly to Catnip? I am sorry, I didn't mean to ignore your post. I actually put your book on my reading list. (Hope they make it in a Books on Tape version. The only time I get to "read" is on my commute to and from work. That and long baths were the first things to go when I became a mom and a working mom to boot.)

Love to all,
MJ

MJ,

I'm sorry. Yes, I thought you ignored my post and that's so overly sensitive. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I have not been in a good state of mind lately and I apologize.

The XOW mail I referred to just happened, was upsetting for me (I considered making my own post but didn't), and I'm worried about H's reaction (to beat himself up again as a husband). He's not here in person, only via email, so there is a limit to what our communications can get across. It's frustrating.

However, I really AM happy you and catnip connected on this issue--that's what we need, people who understand!

And I'm glad your H is searching for God again; seek and ye shall find. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

Prayers,
J

<small>[ October 23, 2002, 06:32 PM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

MJ,

I'm in the camp that would medicate your husband as well, because he's a great candidate for treatment.

As to the proof of God's existence, you might want to let him know that you still love and cherish him---that's a pretty powerful statement about the existence of God in your life.

God bless.

MJ,

I understand how heartbreaking it is to watch one you love deny the One that loves him the most. I dont have much to add at this time. I cant type a lot due to an overlysensitive baby with sonar ears. I just wanted to let you know I will be praying for your H to return to our Lord.

Love
bw