TG said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess what prompted this was, the OW, especially one with an OC, seems to expect to be treated on the same level as the wife and the marital family. Yet, she, in most cases, refuses to accept that she might have done something wrong. The implication to me being that she wants to have her cake and eat it too, even thought it may be only half a cake, so to speak.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's kind of how I feel. The way I look at it though is in MOST cases, they want and expect the same things not because of personal resentment, but because now that this innocent little child is here and in their care almost exclusively, they want the world for them. They want mom and dad to be in love, but if not in love, then at least friends that admire one another and can get along.
They want dad behave as though this was a child conceived out of love. They fear that the child will feel unloved, especially if there are children from the marriage that receive dad's love and attention already.
All of this sums up to what I've labled as the "backpeddling syndrome" on the OW's part. You make decisions that are not in the best interest of your unborn children and then when cute little baby is here, you want the best for them....BUT YOU DIDN'T PLAN, PREPARE, AND MAKE SOUND DECISIONS AND PERSONAL SACRIFICES TO OFFER THEM THE BEST FROM THE GET GO.
This by no means is exclusive to ow/o parents. I see my sister deal with the same back peddling syndrome. She has two babies by the same man and they're not married. Now that the relationship is sour, she wants all of the stability, love, admiration and family bonding afforded to married couples. But she can't go back. She can only see things for what they are (like it or not) and raise her babies to not feel disabled or lacking in any way because of their upbringing.
To sum up my long response, in some cases, yes, I think the ow is acting out of resentment and feelings of entitlement because MM has chosen to stay w/ wife and kids. And in some cases, I they truly just want for their child what can not (in most cases) be provided and it BITES THEM IN THE [censored].

Please understand that my response is not intended to judge single parents. My mom was a single parent for most of my youth and she did the best she could. I knew in some areas of my life I was lacking, but what mom could not provide, GOD did.

Well I say good for everyone who can be a proud single woman knocked up out of wedlock and raising a kid without a dad. Hold your head up high! Where I come from, it's a shame. Where I come from adultery is a shameful act. I'm not saying go around living life like you are less than or unworthy of forgiveness from God, yourself, and others--if possible, I'm just submitting that "OW pain" would probably fall somewhere in that category. Of course, it doesn't apply to every situation. Did that strike a nerve??? Didn't mean to...

I am guessing you wouldnt have said it if you didnt want to strike a nerve.
I dont believe it is any more shameful, than for a husband to produce a child while he is married to someone else. And then to deny that child. He should be ashamed of himself, at least most of these shameful women, keep thier child and face responsibility. and I doubt most have a child to keep the man, seems silly, I was more shocked than he was, after all he made up his vasectomy story. But I wasnt going to kill a baby, or gve her up for adoption, when I was am capable of gving her love, and providing for her.


Your right, apologies do not make up for every thing, But it sure doesnt hurt, The only thing that makes it better, is to do the best you can, and make the future better, If you let anger eat you up the rest of your life, think of all the precious time your wasting. I believe someone said you have to forgive your selves... Just as the om in these situations learn to forgive themselves, I dont think the other woman are much different.

SO all those women out there who have a child and took responsibility, Hold your head up high, because you did what you needed to do. You took responsibility for your actions and are working hard to provide a good and loving home for your child. Your child will thank you for loving them enough to keep them and raise them. If you have no help from the man who ran away when he produced a child, then get the help you need through the courts and move on, if they are so uncaring as to want nothing to do with his child, then you do not really want them around that sweet baby any way.

If I had not kept my baby, I would not be married, I would have never ever forgave my husband for insisting I give her up. NO way.

these are just my personal feelings, I am not attacking any one. But feel very strongly about this.. so please think nothign of it, it is not directed at any one, merely thinking outloud so to speak,.

I think we are entitled to our individual perspective on this one.
I personally do not feel that my relationship with my ex was about anyone except him and I and the issues we had as individuals. He has also shared with me that is how he too feels where our relationship/feelings were concerned.
I do not and never did want to be in his wife's shoes. The jealousy factor baffles me in terms of thinking that ow wants to be the bs. More so, I'd say that the OP is frustrated with the fact that the ws is measuring factors such as money and having to pay alimony and losing house and land and bank accounts should a seperation occur. I personally feel sorry for his wife, as she has no idea who her husband really is and what his voids are.
Look, we can debate why an op should or shouldn't apologize all day long. The reality is that everyone in the affair has been burnt in some manner. If all involved can go to their own corner of the ring and leave eachother alone, then in my opinion, that is a good thing. Again, this is my opinion and experience only; I thought you wanted an answer or perspective that may be one you hadn't realized before. That being the lack of connection to you, the bs. I really see it as that straitforward. Right, wrong or indifferent as it may be, that is more often the case than not.

CM

Flowerseed, you asked,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (Does anyone else feel that often the OW feels she is entitled to something for sleeping with our H's?) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel that I am entitled to anything. But I would like to know that my OM had the courage to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.

My OM is the one who lied, cheated, deceived, used me, blew his wad and then skipped off into the sunset with his wife, leaving me to deal with the consequences of a pregnancy. He knew I was in a troubled marriage, knew we were in counseling trying to work it out. Preyed on me like an animal and then took off like a shot when I got pregnant and decided to stay with my H.

Yes, I was the one who decided to end it and stay with my H. Finally the light bulb clicked on and I saw what I had and what I almost threw away for OM.

So because of that, does that absolve OM from all responsibility? He sure thinks so. Yes, I could go after him for child support. But why should I have to? Where is his sense of responsbility? If I were his wife I don't think I could rest knowing that he did that and is just turning his back on the whole thing as if it never happened. Why should I be the only one (along with my husband) to have the life altering change? Because I chose to give my child life?

I realize many of you have "evil" OW, who only want to wreck havoc on your lives. But there are some of us (OW) who are decent people, only trying to piece our lives back together, now with a child, and make the best out of a tough situation.

I've gone from a full-time, well-paying job, to a part-time, much less paying position, just so I can spend as much time with my child as I can. We are choking financially and could really use the income that child support would allow. But because I don't want to wreck havoc on OM's life, and I don't want contact with him, I've decided not to expend the energy and cost to to go after him for child support.

I guess my question is what is OM's responsiblity in all this?

Everyone has been hurt. Hurt is hurt.

True.

Some people get hurt crossing the street in the crosswalk.

Some get hurt jaywalking.

Some get hurt standing in the street watching a car they see speeding down the street .... and they refuse to step out of the way.

Some seem to jump in front of that speeding car on purpose!

Hurt is hurt.

Reckless is reckless.

Pepper

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

NP,

Interesting that you bring up the financial aspect. My -ex told me when I revealed to him that my H may loose his job over the next few months, that I have a great job that pays well and hey, my brother is wealthy, so why not ask him for help if we need it?
Ah, what??
I told him that he can forget my asking my brother for a dime. I also told him that if he is worried about having to pay cs, he should contact an attorney of his own. He claims he isn't and that if we want him to pay cs, he will.. And, oh, what about contact? Guess he equates paying cs with some right to see my child.
If you and your H need the financial support, don't feel guilty about pursing it. I would suggest contacting an attorney in your state to find out what your rights are and ask all of your questions before dismissing the idea.

CM

You guys have to understand something, Most of these women are not having a baby to hurt you, or make your life miserable, I did not apologise for having a baby, I said I was sorry I had the affair.

When a woman is having a baby, reguardless of the circumstances, most of the time, keeping that baby and loving him/her is the most natural response int he world. Thats why God made us mothers. We nurture and care for our children. I am not saying there are not any bad mothers, But maybe just maybe you should think the woman kept the baby, not to get om, but because she became pregnant and the most natural thing in the world for her to do, Is give birth and care for her child. That is not about the BS... or OM. It is about a mother and her child.
I did not carry my baby to term, because I wanted om, I carried her to term, because I found my self pregnant, and knew I now had a responsibility to care for and love this child.
Very simple

Mo5,
There is defiantly shame but not for walking away. The shame I see in my h is that he was foolish and did something very wrong by betraying me and our daughter and now there is a living reminder of that act.
My opinion is if you bring a child into the world in this matter as the ow in our case and are not capable of taking the responsibly of raising that child on your own then you have nothing to be proud of. I would never be able to take money from a family if I had screwed someone else’s h and produced a child because of it. To me that would be something that would make me even more ashamed. Just my thoughts. flowerseed

NPLH wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess my question is what is OM's responsiblity in all this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I cannot speak from your situation, but in ours which resulted in a three night stand, we filed first because we felt it was right (pending DNA) that Child Support is a given. Mr. "T" and ex-ow argued extensively before the birth her child about adoption, Mr."T"'s involvement, the child's last name (given without Mr."T"'s permission---but it doesn't matter and now isn't even an issue for us anymore we have no contact).

I do believe that if the child is the man's he is financially responsible. I also believe in Child Support that is fair, so that the children of the home (who were there before the OC) standard of living doesn't suffer as much either. I resent unfair CS payments, but never FAIR payments...that child does deserve to be cared for.

I also believe, that since Mr."T" and ex-ow couldn't agree on what was best for the child, Mr. "T" chose adoption and since Ex-ow couldn't give up her child (understandable speaking from a mother's point of view) then the next best thing Mr."T" decided to do was give sole care and custody over to ex-ow. Essentially making the child hers solely. We still pay our financial obligation, but it shows ex-ow in black and white, that she couldn't force his hand into any emotional involvement.

They could never agree on anything and Mr."T" felt that in the long run, arguing over every little thing with a stranger he barely knew over the fate of "his half of the child" wasn't in the best interest for everybody involved. He told our MC that he just wanted his life back the way it was pre-three night stand, and realizes that he screwed it up badly.

Of course, our case is different, I know for gospel fact that the ex-ow in our case was after Mr."T"...and I hold Mr."T" accountable for what he did. Y'all would be surprised at some of the things I rag Mr."T" about. But I try not to LB.

Anyways, what I guess I'm answering from our point of view is the MM/OM absolutely owes child support....I can speak from experience...my ex-husband is trying to get out of his financial obligation and we just NOW saved up the money for the retainer for my Attorney to go after him. Instead of paying $200 a month for two girls, he will now be ordered to pay $700 a month. Dinobon is bi-polar and requires special needs. My ex-Husband re-married and has no children. We are asking for fairness. Mr."T" has been paying for my two children from my first marriage 100%, since my ex was a dead-beat dad...

I see both sides when it comes to financial obligation....BUT...as far as emotional involvement and support,

I have found that Mr."T" is more of a Daddy to my two girls than their bio-dad. They are healthy, happy girls and I raised them myself until I married Mr."T". I accepted responsibility for myself and raised them without my ex-'s involvement. It's all in how you raise the child.

Anyways...off on a tangent here...I'll shut up...
that's my situation and my POV on my situation...

You can make a man pay financially....but you can never force them to be a "part" if they chose not to or disagree with what the mother wants in her life. I guess that's what I was trying to say.

Hugs,
Twiisty

Flowerseed, you wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My opinion is if you bring a child into the world in this matter as the ow in our case and are not capable of taking the responsibly of raising that child on your own then you have nothing to be proud of. I would never be able to take money from a family if I had screwed someone else&#8217;s h and produced a child because of it. To me that would be something that would make me even more ashamed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then do you feel the MM has any responsibility at all towards the OC he helped produce? Or do you feel his responsibility is only to his wife and family, regardless of his actions with OP?

Don't mean to trigger any bad vibes, just wondering what another's point of view is on this subject.)

Om's responsibility is to his W if he wants to stay in the marriage.

The way my H sees it is this: He dropped the ball thinking ow was still on the pill, and trying to end it all that summer, ow had different ideas and wanted ME to know what H was doing. Hoping I'd leave. He finally said go ahead and tell my W! I don't want to do this anymore....Well,,,,

ow picked up the ball H dropped and ran to the goal line with it. After he begged her to not do it, not destroy her H and existing C's lives. She talked about not being able to have another abortion as she had one in high school and couldn't do it again. And not to worry she'd keep the secret and do it alone.

Three lies! Lying along w/my H during affair, telling H she was on pill, saying she'd keep a secret.

Someday H would like the opportunity to tell her how she ruined his and oc's life with her choice..he never bargained for an oc. Oc didn't deserve being born into that situation, with the sadness of a funeral the day he was born...Sadness from her H, my H, and all the rest of our families.

We could beat this into the ground over and over.

I have to say though, why on earth would a woman choose to bear a child to ANY man she's not married to? Let alone the father is married? What possible outcome do women think can happen?

BTW, most ow must think the reason mm and w don't divorce is because of finance and original children. That is not true. If mm truly wanted a different life and oc, nothing would keep him away. Saying this because ow in our case wrote how sorry she felt for me and that h was scared of losing his $ on a divorce, when in actuality it wasn't true.

Just another lie they tell op to keep them at bay......

If it were true the opposite would happen, they would divorce to keep the cs police away that usually render a man close to penniless.

So paying is mm responsibility.

Turning your back on someone you didn't want to exist may be the same as turning your back on your w during A. They just do it.

Debi

well your husband should have thought about that before he produced a child, He knows how to use protection.
why should that single mother not try and get some help.. I have never been to court, om and I just worked out every thing our selves, I dont need the money , so It isnt an issue, But when a mother has a child, she owes that child a home and security and if that man produced a child from his affair, or what ever it was. Then he should be the one ashamed of the fact that he is now taking money from his wife and children, because of something he did.

But I agree about one thing, If a parent can not afford to take care of a child, and does not have the resources to do so, she should not have a baby, Finding a good home would be better.
There are many single mothers out there, who work very hard to provide, because the men in their life, do nothing to help them. They raise fine upstanding children and work hard all their lives to do so.

I know paying child support can not be easy, but that child deserves the support of both parents and if that can not be emotional support on both parts , then he should be financially responsible. Unfortunately that is a result of having a child out of an affair.

I am sure I would be very angry if I had to write a check for my husbands ow every month. But I would be more dissapointed if my husband fathered a child and wanted nothing to do with that child ever. I am not saying the other woman , just that child. But thats just me. I also know my husband would not could not walk away from a baby. He didnt walk away from my daughter, that afternoon at the hospital, visitors, who used to work with us, came by to see the baby, and daddy[my husband ] introduced every one to his baby girl. He cant imagine life with out her, and if I were to divorce him you can be sure he would demand to be part of her life as well.
I do understand you hate the other woman, I have felt that hate before, for many years.. some days it practically ruled my life... But you know what, yes they new my husband was married and did not care, But my husband told so many lies to get them in bed, once, and then he never looked back, he was the one at fault , they didnt owe me any thing, but he sure as heck did.

HE BAD MOUTHED ME AND GOT THEM TO GIVE HIM SYMPATHY, then when I would find out and want to throw him out, he would beg to stay.
I know some of these ow, cause all kinds of craziness, and But they are not all like that, and while you are entittled to feel all the hate and anger..

I will be honest, when om and I broke up after all those years and he told me he wouldnt be aable to see our child, I was hurt , devistated in fact, I had given him years of my life... But you know what, I didnt contact them, didnt call, I walked away and didnt look back, He wanted to see the baby, and I had a hard time seeing him for the first time, I was still angry and we had a lot to move past.
He saw the baby in secret for a year, every single week, and called almost every day, one day I woke up and said enough is enough, if you want to be a daddy, then do it in the open, be a man, I want know part of the secrets... He felt guilty for what he had done, and felt bad he turned his back on me. I think he still has issues with it to this day.

It isnt his wifes fault, your right, and had it not been me, it would have been someone else, maybe not as long, but someone. But it is his child and he does owe this baby a good life just as I do, and when she grows up, she will know we both love her and she can feel free to love us both. It isnt about me any more. It isnt about him any more. It is about my daughter now.

I know every situation is different, and I am sure no contact is needed in some situations, But reguardless if there is or isnt contact, the men have to be responsible in some way... How ever those women seeking this should understand it might involve visitation as well, and if you feel this is not in your childs best intrest, I think you should rethink what approach you take.

CMiranda, wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, oh, what about contact? Guess he equates paying cs with some right to see my child. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, that's where I would draw the line. If OM paid child support, in my mind that would be him owning up to his responsibility. Regardless of whether he wanted this child or not, why should he get to just walk away? Especially in my case where it was him who pursued me to no end. I would not desire contact, nor wish for my child to be in OM's life at all.

And (Flowerseed) I just wanted to clarify, its not that I'm not capable of finacially caring for my child. All I'm saying is that it is tight with not a whole lot of breathing room. But that's ok. I'm not complaining. Our basic needs are met.

My point is that I just don't see how someone can just walk away and not feel ANY SENSE of obligation.

Someday H would like the opportunity to tell her how she ruined his and oc's life with her choice..he never bargained for an oc. Oc didn't deserve being born into that situation, with the sadness of a funeral the day he was born...Sadness from her H, my H, and all the rest of our families.

That is definatley sad.. I cant imagine the birth being like a funeral, But I do remember hearing this from a few others... OM was not there for the birth, But, my husband, children and family and friends, were all very excited, My husband was a great help to me during labor, and had a smile on his face so big , when little one was born. SHe was so beautiful mY entire family was thrilled she was here and so healthy.

I dont know any thing about the ow in your case, but dont you think there is a chance that child will grow up happy and and loved and not think he was a mistake?
I dont think the chance to tell a child he should not have been born, is so heroic, Why crush a child, who you already abandoned. what would it solve.

In time oc will be told why mommy and daddy dont live together, and she will know her circumstances, But she will know we loved her enough to keep her and that our lives are the better for it.
om has asked me to remember to tell her all the stories he shared with me over the years and about his family and his parents that he shared, I have pictures of them all, and he wrote her a letter, telling her how much he and I meant to each other and hOW MUCH HE LOVES HER.

He wants her to grow up and know that we gave her life because we wanted and loved her. I dont think thats so bad. Why hurt a child on purpose ?

Do I think it is important to tell her, that for the last 7 months of the pregnancy he ran away and wanted nothing to do with her ? Do I tell her he came to me begging forgiveness and asking to please let him help me raise her, and that at first I wasnt so willing ? DO I tell her om's wife said he could never lay eyes on her, or let her know that om's wife loves her as well... why cause more pain what would your husband gain from it, except trying to ease his guilt, or to hurt an child who doesnt deserve to be hurt...
Just curious, I do not mean to offend, Just see things differently and want to understand.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

no place

I understand what your saying, I think when om and I vbroke up after years of being together, after, all the promises, and picking out baby names together, the fact that he thought he could just walk away and be able to turn his back on our baby, amazed me, this was a man who had professed loved for me for years, had convinced me to leave my husband, had taken over my life, and now he was just gonna walk away!? I was so dissapointed, not because I couldnt do it with out him, but because I thought he was better than that.

and while HARD i AM GLAD IT TURNS OUT HE WAS BETTER THAN THAT.

CM~~"I personally do not feel that my relationship with my ex was about anyone except him and I and the issues we had as individuals."

I agree. But, CM, I see one of YOUR issues... one that allowed you to date and fall in love with a married man. That is certainly about you.

You and MM we driving a car in secrecy ... so you had the lights off at night so no one would see you together. Your eyes were on each other. You were alone in your little "together" world and the outside world ceased to exist.

Why did you need to drive at night with no headlights? For secrecy. Why did you need secrecy to fall in love? Because both of you had families that would not tolerate your going outside the marriage. So, in that sense, your relationship with MM , and the requirement that it be conducted in secrecy, very much entered into the way you conducted your relationship.

To further the analogy, MM's wife and kids were victims of a hit and run while they were crossing the sidewalk ... being where they were supposed to be, doing what they were suposed to be doing .... They could not identify the car that hit them ... it was dark, and the car was driving without lights. YOU , as a passenger in the car that struck them, have no reason to apologize to them. "After all I was not driving that car. MM was." Did you ever say, "Driving without lights in secret is dangerous. someone could get hurt."?

People did get hurt. ALL of you got hurt. The worst injury (in MY opinion) is YOUR child!

You owe YOUR child an apology. You were reckless, and he pays the price. You were reckless, and MM's wife and children pay the price.

To apologize is to elevate yourself. You were not in that darkened car hoping to run someone over .... but, you were in that car because you did not chose to consider the damage one can do in the darkness of secrecy and deception.

To recognize the danger you are placing others in by YOUR actions, is a mark of a spiritually evolved human.

Rise above this. Recognize the damage done at your hands. It is a burden God will help you carry if you ask with contrition.

Take care...

Pepper

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
<strong>CMiranda, wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, oh, what about contact? Guess he equates paying cs with some right to see my child. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, that's where I would draw the line. If OM paid child support, in my mind that would be him owning up to his responsibility. Regardless of whether he wanted this child or not, why should he get to just walk away? Especially in my case where it was him who pursued me to no end. I would not desire contact, nor wish for my child to be in OM's life at all.

And (Flowerseed) I just wanted to clarify, its not that I'm not capable of finacially caring for my child. All I'm saying is that it is tight with not a whole lot of breathing room. But that's ok. I'm not complaining. Our basic needs are met.

My point is that I just don't see how someone can just walk away and not feel ANY SENSE of obligation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NP,

I hear you. First of all, all OM's know how to spell condom. Pill or no pill, they have the choice to use a condom. It is amazing that my ex never uttered a word about bc of any kind. He told me he often wondered about my getting pregnant and how he foresaw that event as one that would push him to end his fence sitting duty. He didn't ever believe I wouldn't chose him in the event of him and I conceiving together. Big surprise. It was a wakeup call for me as I began to see him as someone other than the perfect guy I thought he was and I shuttered at the thought of being his wife or leaving my H for him. Just as you also realized, it would have been a mistake.
I see him now and I thank God I ended things with him and didn't go any further toward ending my M.
I would not want a man who could turn his back on his resposibilites toward his child. He is lacking in his values. I believe that some bs feel that ws chose them over ow and oc but the reality, in my situation at least, is that he settled for the easy way and path of least resistance. He loves no one more than he loves himself. That is how I it.

If I felt vindictive or bitter or hateful, I'd forgo any friendly conversations with him as I have had in the past, I'd take him to court and get back at him for doing things to me and to his wife than neither of us deserved. My rational mind knows that in my case, that is not the best way to heal for myself and my marriage. I want to be forgiving as I need to be forgiven. That is all that I want at this time although I too feel angry at him just as you do your -ex.

CM

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He loves no one more than he loves himself. That is how I it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">such a very true statement one that I came to realise the hard way

CM EMPTY YOUR EMAIL, NO ROOM

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

CM wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I felt vindictive or bitter or hateful, I'd forgo any friendly conversations with him as I have had in the past, I'd take him to court and get back at him for doing things to me and to his wife than neither of us deserved </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">says it all...really....and in doing so, if the wife chose to stand by her husband, then the court costs, the finances etc. are ruined anyway and the wife and the kids suffer yet again.

I agree with you in your other post about men should know how to wear a condom...a fact that I shove in my H's face more than I should. (Gotta work on my LB's) everytime the phone gets cut off or I'm sitting in the dark w/o electricity, I remind him of the expensive screw he had and how it wasn't worth all this. But I'm in the business of trying recover from this. In my case, the spur of a moment quickie settled it for us...condom or not...

Yep My H was selfish, thinking only of the pleasure at the moment. He was selfish for using another woman's A$$. He was selfish for putting me through what he did. I openly admit that.

My OW was selfish too. That's a fact too.

I like what you wrote at the end of that quote," I want to forgive and be forgiven, despite my anger" or something like that....that's good. Let go of the vindicativeness...I'm trying to....even though I want to wring my ex-ow's neck...I already wrung Mr."T"'s ....

Peace,
Twiisty

No,MO5, H doesn't want to tell oc he ruined his life. Ow is who he'd like to tell.

H feels so sorry that just because of oc, ow has no dad in any of her c's lives. H feels responsible and sick for that. It's a choice that ow made alone. No one agreed. Not her family and certainly not ours. We now pay cs. It's the best she can expect.

BTW she can wipe her as* with it as she's wealthy.
She's doing it because she can. We don't even think about it too much any more. Oc will know at least his father did that. That does make us less guilty, don't you think?

BUT ow chose this life after all involved begged her not to do it. Including her H who asked her to move w/him and relocate as he couldn't bear the shame being in a small community. Everyone knew...everyone talked...her H comes from a well known family...she didn't go, and it forever affected her c's!

Her H has since divorced her.

Truly sad for all involved.

Hey, BTW, her oldest c's blame my H for their Dad being so far away. Oldest D gave us the finger when we saw her at a store one day. She's 13. Her son doesn't look our way when we see him. Her youngest D is just plain sad. Then there is oc who still doesn't know anything......

Ow lives 1/2 mile from us and we see her driving around weekly. Usually alone w/c's.

I run into her without trying as we frequent same stores, restaurants, roads, etc.

H and I just look the other way. We usually just thank God we are together as seeing her reminds us weekly what we almost lost. That's another reason we're moving. Ow goes out of her way to get us to notice her. We're weary of that and just want peace and to continue our lives.

We are tired of being sick and tired <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

That's just our story. Everyone has their own.

I hoped this helped to explain why some men don't visit oc. It's a choice they usually make when they find out about pregnancy. Then guilt finds it's way and they are torn because of what they've done to oc/W/own c's. It's just not easy.

Yes, H could have used protection. Thanks for reminding me about something he beats himself up for along with ever betraying me in the first place. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I almost forgot what this thread was about...apology....nope...don't want it...she posed as our friend, remember? My H posed as her H's friend. It's just so unfortunate for all of us. My H's apology is all I need.

Debi

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>