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I have often felt that it would have been a nice gesture for the OW to apologise to the BS. By showing contrition to the wife of the man with whom she was involved, she possibly expressed her willingness to accept responsibility for the EA.
Of course, the H has accepted his responsibility for his affair and his part of it. Why can't the OW also express her responsibility for her part in the affair and her sorrow for the pain inflicted upon the wife? Or, is it that most OW have no sorrow for their behavior and the pain inflicted upon others. Are they only concerned with their own pain, and don't care for any one else?
In most cases, once the H came out of the fog, the H expressed sorrow for his betrayal of his marriage vows. My H has told me so many times how much he regretted his affair and wished he could go back and undo his actions that led to his affair.
If the OW had done the same thing I might see her as more sympathetic. However, since this has never happend, I have no desire to have contact with her, much less her child and my H has made his own choices, no contact. NOt because of my feelings, but because of his feelings.
To me, it would have been especially appropriate if the OW truly wanted the H/F of OC, involved with the OC. Wouldn't this go a long way to helping the BS "get over" the affair? Of course, it goes without saying that the OW would have to mean it and be honestly sorry for attempting to undermine the marriage.

What do the rest of you all think?

Texasgirl

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hello,
I agree with you.

Dawn

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Hey Texasgirl!!

I have always made a big point over how OW never apologized to me. She never even asked H how I took it, etc. She doesn't care how I am, she hates me. Envies me for having H. When people here have asked how it is that BS can forgive the WS but not the other person, I always answer that my H has asked me for forgiveness, the OW never has and I don't believe she ever will.

Not that I care, I feel sorry for her. She is obsessed with my H and will just live in her own sick little world until she gets over it. She has told H that she wants him to see OC etc, but I am sure she doesn't want the OC to see me. Well, I am part of the package since she picked a married man to father her child.

My H has also chosen no contact on his own, but if he did want contact it would definitely make me more accepting of situation, etc if OW was sorry for her part in the whole thing. But she isn't. She actually joked around recently with one of his cousins asking him to ask my H if he would make her a brother or sister for OC. She is one sick cookie...

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This is interesting. Having been betrayed, I didn't want the OW to say anything to me. I didn't care for anything she had to say. If she would have told me she was sorry I would have said "Yeah, I know you are." But that's just me.

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I did apologize to OM's wife. And, just like OM, she lured me into a relationship with her just to get what she wanted. Then when her curiousity was satified and I had made myself vulnerable to her friendship, she dropped me like a hot potato.

Shame on me for being so gullible and believing that good could come out of bad where they are concerned.

They are one screwed up family and as far as I'm concerned they deserve each other. I wish I hadn't let my guard down and invite them into my life. But I did and now I have to get past that.

But I did apologize - don't think it did any good 'cause she still took out revenge on me. But I guess I was being way to naive to think things could have been different.

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This is an interesting topic. How do you truely measure the sincerity of the OP? If she says she's sorry and you don't believe it, then what?

Why should an OW have to show contrition to a BS?

As a personal ammends to the BS I decided to maintain NC with both xMM and his W. For me that's more meaningful than any kind of apology.

This much time later I can honestly say that i'm not sorry for the affair. I'm sorry for the pain that it caused. I'm sorry that I contacted her, I think that it was cruel and unthinking on my part to confess. But apology-I don't think that I could honestly do that.

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I have forgiven the exOW… but she has never apologized.

My forgiveness of her was not based on her. It was based on me and where I was in my recovery…

It was my choice to forgive… it did not come from anything she said… or any act that she did.

H as left exOW and I standing alone, in the parking lot of the grocery store where the exchanges take place, while he takes Lil Bit in the store to the service counter for a sucker…
I have often wondered what she would say if I just turned to her and said, “I forgive you.”

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TG,
I agree with you. Interesting post.

I got an apology (which felt good), but it ending up meaningless, XOW saying all kinds of horrid things, revealing more about A, and generally having tantrums. Yuck.

KS, TG basically answered your question when she asked:

"Why can't the OW also express her responsibility and her sorrow for the pain inflicted upon the wife?"

Also, in cases where the OW knew the W, (or must deal with W in sharing OC!), does familiarity, even "friendship" NOT make a difference?
----------------------------------------
I was told recently that even the pagan early Egyptians believed that the human heart was weighed against a feather upon death... Someday we will all answer for our actions AND intentions by One Who Knows.

Prayers,
J, in recovery 4y and glad <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 10:17 AM: Message edited by: Jenny ]</small>

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H's exOW has apologized to me--twice and both times felt good. The second time came on this mother's day and I didn't know how to respond. The apology felt good, but I don't want to get drawn into a friendship with this woman who tried her very best to dismantle my life. We do speak occasionally on the phone. She and I just chat about our kids and what they are doing. It is just mommy chatter.

Mr. J worries that I will tell her too much, talk about his suffering and guilt. I told him I would never betray his confidence and certainly not to her. I also told him he is welcome to listen in to any conversation I have with her or if he wishes I will refrain from speaking to her. Since we are doing visitation, I feel it is best that we can be civil or even cordial, but not overly friendly.

MJ

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On one of the few times I talked to ex-ow on the phone, I told her I forgave her and she replied and I quote," I neither asked for nor do I need your forgiveness". That was enough (among other things) to convince me I was dealing with something that wasn't beneficial to my marriage recovery and was one of the deciding factors in NC on my part, but Mr."T" already decided that he wasn't going to be part of the child's life before the child was born.

She told me that me and my children mean shyte to her and that she's madly in love with my H and won't let him go. That's kind of hard to do the "let's get along for the children's sake" if she didn't give a hoot about mine...

Ah well, she's happy now...married (finally) and moving on....and Mr."T" and I are moving on...guess that's about it for us...

Twiisty

If she ever apologized to me, I would be gracious about it...what more could I say or do? I got my H, my soulmate and a more comitted Hubby now...how can I not be thankful? I would probably want to throw something in about being without, but then, what's the use?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong>...is it that most OW have no sorrow for their behavior and the pain inflicted upon others. Are they only concerned with their own pain, and don't care for any one else?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO YES... OW's "own pain" being: single parenting & the shame that goes with it, (if they are willing to admit it); letting down family--expectations & such; financial struggles even with CS...

I also think that until an xOW becomes a wife will she fully understand the impact of her actions toward the BS. Even then, if she is not the type of person to apologize for her wrongs, then you can't really say for sure? You know how some people's life theme is "make no apologies" and stand behind your decisions (even if they are WRONG).

Infidelity is a very selfish act. I apologized to BS but only in my prayers. I think the BS in my case feels kind of like nocontact4us and twiisty as far as:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">twiisty said:
<strong>
I got my H, my soulmate and a more comitted Hubby now...how can I not be thankful?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You see, they are still married today, and I know that his career has proven to be highly successful and they are rolling in dough! This was my prayer for them from the beginning, that they would prosper and that my request for CS would never be a huge financial burden. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong>...Wouldn't this go a long way to helping the BS "get over" the affair? Of course, it goes without saying that the OW would have to mean it and be honestly sorry for attempting to undermine the marriage.

What do the rest of you all think?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I had one opportunity to apologize, but it caught me so off guard and I was surprised. When OC was 10, they both took OC to dinner. OC knew BS was coming but didn't tell me. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Not that OC was keeping a secret, but it was not in OCs mind to mention to me... I think her reason for coming was in relation to how BS's here describe having curiosity about OW/OC. She was composed, we were both polite to each other. I had OC at the door ready to go and that was it. UNTIL... she asked to use my bathroom.

Thinking back, perhaps she went in there to react to seeing me in private... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> I often wonder what went through her mind in there... We were very different from each other. I was not his type, in other words... I think he just was trying someone different? That seems to be a characteristic of "serial cheater," always craving someone different...

I was still self-absorbed at that moment tho, feeling embarrassed instead of trying to reach out to the BS. I felt embarrassed because I knew she was his wife and I meant nothing to him. I just ended up pregnant by him. We were not in love nor was I trying to be. I just knew I was not in her class of people. This is how I felt at that moment, but you know, it was still very selfish of me--only thinking of myself!

duh... How self-absorbed can a person GET??? Sheesh! I know I've "been there..." God help me to think, think, THINK of others more than myself!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Embarrassed]" src="images/icons/blush.gif" />

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 11:52 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

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I say the healing and contrition and yes, reconciliation should go all the way around.

To answer the topic question, no, my xow has not apologized. This is evern after I sent her a letter explaining to her that I felt she was partially responsible for my hurt.

She quite conveniently explained all of her reasons for thinkink what she was doing was o.k, but never accepted that she had enough knowlede about my H (marital status) to make a better choice than what she did.

I would like for her to apologize, but that may never happen.
Interestingly, how many of you bs have asked your ws to apologize for bringing someone in their lives that didn't belong?
This mess, afterall, was created by two selfish people.
Also, I feel like my xow owes my H and apology. As a self-described server of God, she was expected to help my H see that his choices were gonna cause God, himself and those he loved tremendous grief. But her need to be a significant other superceded that Christian responsibility to my H. (I know, it's a stretch if she hasn't even said sorry to me yet).

I've forgiven her, but the fact that she obviously doesn't accept her responsibility is enough to keep me judging her....not for the act, but for how she's reacted to the situation thus far.
Good Topic....
so, any wss apologizing??????

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Feel like I need to clarify my post.

when i say bs apologizing, I mean to the xop. think of the apiritual healing that could go on personally for both of them.

my H flat out told lies...the kind that mm tell. I'm leaving my w...let's get together....she treats me poorly, the whole one-sided plea.

Yeah, full-grown people should know better than to believe a person who is CURRENTLY not keeping an important committment, but....

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you raise an interesting point Matthew. My xMM came to my house in August to apologize to me. And he did.

He apologized for the lies that he told, for involving my in this very messy situation. He apologized for being moody and dismissive of my feelings and he thanked me for supporting him when he went to rehab.

He then proceeded to provide me with all kinds of information about his penis. Including, but not limited to, the fact that he had just had a vascetomy (sp?) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> TMI!

Looking back it's very clear to me that we could never have an honest relationship. He is not capable of honesty. There are things about him that I miss, but i'm happy to be done with the MM phase of my life.

Interestingly enough - I don't think he's ever apologized to his W.

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 12:02 PM: Message edited by: Katie Scarlett ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Matthew6:14,15:
<strong>Feel like I need to clarify my post.

when i say bs apologizing, I mean to the xop. think of the apiritual healing that could go on personally for both of them...
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Hi Matthew,
Did you mean WS apologize to the xOP? If so, I know the MM/WS in my case would never do such a thing. He is one of those who firmly believes in "making no apologies..." at least up until now... I pray that he would have a change of heart and maybe feel more apologetic toward OC. (?) Ya never know?? Obviously he apologized to his wife and things are going well for them and that's what should really matter to them. Incidentally, my OC is now the age I was when I got pregnant by the MM! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Time flies when you're having fun and even when you're not! We have to find a way to enjoy our lives in spite of all this chaos and drama. We don't have to let it sink in too deep. God has a way of working all things to our good when we trust Him for sustenance.

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Oh and for the record I accepted and appreciated his apology. Even if it was just a ploy to get into my pants.

I knew what I signed up for when I got with him. I held no illusions. Still don't.

More than anything I had to forgive myself for my own willingness to continue such a dysfunctional relationship.

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Hi BTDT,

Thanks for clarifying my clarification <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Yes, I meant WS apologizing to xow/m.

KS,
Yuck...I'm not even sure how you remembered his apology after such a disgusting attempt at inappropriate dialogue.

What a shame. He wasted an opportunity to clear his conscious (sp?).

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>...More than anything I had to forgive myself for my own willingness to continue such a dysfunctional relationship.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yeeeaaaahhhh.... Good for you! That's so important. We have to ask ourselves this question when in unhealthy relationships--you know--what is so unhealthy about me that I would remain in such an unhealthy relationship???

I'm proud of you KS. This is the only time I will say it so enjoy it! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (just teasing you...)

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BTDT wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> We have to find a way to enjoy our lives in spite of all this chaos and drama. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I have to say, truer words have never been spoken...I'm trying to find a way to enjoy my life in spite of all this. I am slowly coming back to God (Whom I was mad at for a loooonnngggg time!---I miss HIM!) I would love to have just a day where I don't look at "mini-me" and say to myself, "15 more years and no more CS payments..."

I want to move on. I will move on. Thanks for the reminder that we do, indeed need to find some joy in the day.

Hugs,
Twiisty
Miss hearing from ya BTDT...I'll have to drop you a line sometime.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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KS and BTDT,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> Also, I feel like my xow owes my H and apology. As a self-described server of God, she was expected to help my H see that his choices were gonna cause God, himself and those he loved tremendous grief. But her need to be a significant other superceded that Christian responsibility to my H. (I know, it's a stretch if she hasn't even said sorry to me yet). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Agree, or disagree, and why???

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I think what is difficult for most BS's to understand, is that the affair isn't about the BS.
The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. Why expect a connection when the two affair partner's part ways?
I can see where it would make some feel better, to receive an apology, yet it is a high expectation, but not for reasons of selfishness or intent to hurt.
The expectation of an apology from the OP could be measured as selfish on the part of the BS in that the BS does not see the OP as a thinking, feeling, loving person. Just as the OP lacks a connection to the BS as a real person in many instances.
I think it is 2 people hurting from their own experience of the affair and can see only their own pain.

CM

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Matthew,
I dont know that I know your story well enough to answer that. I'm getting the feeling that she was some kind of counselor or something. Maybe when she's ready shell make her apology.

I'll say this. I strongly believe that we choose our lives. MM, OP and WS. Maybe we cant choose what happens to us but we certainly chosse how we deal with it.

I chose MM so I really didn't have room to sit around and cry about much of anythign that happened between us. He chose his W so I was not trying to hear all the "she done we wrong" 's . He kept saying "you know what she did!" And i'd calmly reply "and you stayed".

AFter his wife found out about his many affairs she chose to remain in the relationship and apparently didn't demand to be treated honorably. So while I take responsibility for my part in what I chose, i'm not the one to go kiss up to the wife.

Ok, i'm ranting now.

My honey's on the phone.

gotta run.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think what is difficult for most BS's to understand, is that the affair isn't about the BS.
The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that's the main offense (on both ws and ow/om' part), not thinking of all involved.

Your're right though CM, this is the disconnect for most bs/xop. The way I see it, the affair is very much about the bs and ws's relationship, or lack thereof. It's within the lies that the ws tells that the falsehood of 'the bs is not a part of the equation' propigates.

KS,
No, she wasn't a counselor. I was just holding her to the standard of being 'each other's keeper'. Deep down, I feel like we have a responsibility to one another, you know, to help each other from jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. Even if it means we don't get what we want.
Your're right though, in due time she'll come around.

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Sorry, C Miranda, I don't accept that with the A, it is never about the BS. When two people not married decide to have a relationship when one or more is married, it is always about the BS. The OW in my case knew from outset my H was married, and he never told her otherwise. He knew he was married. He thought he could have A and not hurt me.What OW thought I have no idea, but I know he tried to block me out of picture to follow his whims. I suspect so too did the OW.
But, when she came into my home, and my bed, you cannot make me believe she wasn't thinking of me. When she saw my stuff in my house and my wedding photos in my bedroom, I think what she did then was despicable-and so too my H.

Think of it this way.When someone murders someone, the survivors always gets a change to tell judge how the crime affected them. No different than a rape.When you do something to someone who is in a relationship or a member of a family, you hurt those people as well, just as if you had done the original deed to them.

I see it no differently from the A angle. THe BS and OP both are culpable for the pain wrought to the family and especially the BS.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
[QB][QUOTE]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO YES... OW's "own pain" being: single parenting & the shame that goes with it, (if they are willing to admit it); letting down family--expectations & such; financial struggles even with CS...

I just have to make a comment here - I am a single parent - and don't have any sense of shame whatsoever. I didn't take the easy way out - I took the most difficult road to travel. And the most rewarding, IMO. I own my own home - bought on my own, and probably struggle week-to-week just as much as anyone else does, but I'm certainly not destitute.

I apologized to xMM's W about 4 1/2-5 years ago, after she found out, and offered to answer any questions that she may have - I said that as much as I knew that he'd lied to me, I was sure he'd lied to her even more. She was still pretty angry (understandably) and had some pretty nasty things to say about me and my son. The result? No questions were answered. If I could apologize now, I would - and I'd probably be more sincere about it, but after this long - I'm not going to open any wounds. I just let it go.

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Yes, I definitely believe that as a professing Christian we all have a responsibility to uphold our vows to God and be concerned about what concerns God: lost souls... I DO believe I failed God and myself and my Christian vows--to love and serve God by getting into adultery. But you know? At that time, I was lost myself. I thought I was a Christian and when I accepted Christ, I believed that I had made him Lord of my life, but if it was so easy for me to forget my vows to Him, it makes me wonder if I was really saved?

Part of it, I believe also, was the fact that when I first became a Christian, I was very judgmental and would be asking questions like "how could they ...?" and you can fill in the blanks... So that scripture was fulfilled in my life--the one about removing a splinter out of someone's eye when there is a post in my own? Pointing a finger when I have 3 pointing back at me?

I think that it was definitely a defining moment in my life--getting pregnant by a MM--as well as gaining life experience so I never ever have to ever ask those types of dangerous questions again. Judge not...

Nobody is asking for xOW to go around kissing anybody's butt, just being considerate of other's lives since every action and decision we choose affects others' lives--whether we realize it or not.

I know that my actions did nothing to draw the MM closer to God, for that I am terribly guilty. That is satan's plan for destroying all lives. He's the real enemy. But preaching aside, I think it would mean a lot to BS's who actually want apologies from xOW, to get them. However, if the xOW is still trying to sneak around the BS and conniving with the WS who doesn't want them anymore, I think no contact at all is best. OC suffers but the marriage gets stronger. xOW made these choices for their children, not the BS.

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btdt,

You are so right, he IS the real enemy. I'm trying my best not to allow him to use us in this situation (the visitation process is beginning to get ugly), but it's so tempting. Looking back, I'm not sure our actions are drawing her to God either.

When does it STOP????

Well,
I've suggested to my H that we all go to mediation and lay all of this mess out on the table. We've decided to be a part of lil' mam's life and are thinking about shared custody. The only way it will work (without driving lil lady crazy) is if we get all of this on the table, deal with it and finally move on.
Pray for us BTDT. Pray for my H to agree with this decision....I've suggested to him in the past that he needs to apologize to her.
She's owes us both the same, but whether or not we'll get it remains to be seen.

Just like I said in a previous statement, imagine what a release it would be for all offenders to be able to say I'm sorry.

Just curious, before you forgive yourself for something, don't you have to seek the forgiveness of the person(s) you offended? This q is based on something I think KS mentioned. MM

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AHHHHH TexasGirl...... apologize indeed...

No, I don't want an apology from ow. My H's is all I needed.

Ow's actions to this day both annoy and repulse H and I.

We had a letter sent to her by local prosecutor, so NOW she does things that we can't prove in a court of law.

What? WELL..... We get announcements from childrens photography studios letting us know of specials. Whose name is on them? Ow's first name...my last name. Gentle reminder she's still around. No mistake who signs us up either with her first name spelled exactly as she spells it.

Other annoying things.... pulling into parking lot of H's office and D-R-A-M-A-T-I-C-A-L-L-Y getting out and letting oc run in front of office window as she retrieves him, then walking into beauty shop next door for about 2 minutes and leaving the way she came. Never when H is there though.

So I guess I would never expect an apology huh?

Oh well, we're selling our home and moving with the office! Putting office in our new home.

All this does is make my H sick and wonder why he was ever with someone who portrayed herself as sweet, when the sweet one was ME all along....

God does uncover all evil, we are lucky if it happens in our lifetime.

BTW Ow's H recently divorced her. Now she has 4 kids and no dad to any as x-H is far away. Due to shame he felt staying here. (we have friends who tell me the scoop as their D lives in same city as ow's x-H). AND SHE STILL PINES FOR H! Sheese!

BTDT, thanks again for your very wonderful thoughts.

love
Debi

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
[QB]

AFter his wife found out about his many affairs she chose to remain in the relationship and apparently didn't demand to be treated honorably.

=^^= Are you saying that those of us who stay with our husbands and remain in our marriages do not demand to be treated honorably?
Should I/we all be offended here?

So while I take responsibility for my part in what I chose, i'm not the one to go kiss up to the wife.

=^^= Back to honorablility...do you equate being honorable, just, dignified and smacking of integrity and morality to be something demeaning if you "kiss up" to someone you have wronged? I'm just talking common decency here....

Why am I feeling my blood pressure rising?



QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why am I feeling my blood pressure rising?



QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip...breathe in...breathe out ...nice calming breaths...

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I think what is difficult for most BS's to understand, is that the affair isn't about the BS.

=^^= Au contraire, Mon Ami...it is every bit about the BS as it is the two infidels. Almost all OW's in connection to any of us on this site, have been the prime target of bitter and resentful OW's that did not get the H away from the BS. In my particluar case, my husband's XOW spent the better part of their fling talking about me, our marriage and jealous of our history. I guess she was jealous of our travels, that we ran a business together, that we raised kids together...there was a lot of heartburn and preoccupation on her part. I KNOW OW's are often obsessed with wife and even hate her and malign her even when the BS doesn't even know there is an affair going on or that the OW exists.

The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. Why expect a connection when the two affair partner's part ways?

=^^= If not, then she should and if she doesn't, she is completely selfish. Maybe they (OW's) do not "identify" with the BS, but they are surely in competition with her even if she (BS) doesn't know the OW exists. Just the fact that the OW is sneaking around, knowingly doing something completely selfish and immoral and destroying the most beloved thing in a BS's life, her marraige and family, is grounds for a big, huge, fat, gooey apology...even if the BS never gets one...she certainly deserves it and more on any and all levels.

I can see where it would make some feel better, to receive an apology

=^^= Well, I did get an apology...and three months later she slapped me with a phony Restraining Order saying I said and did things I never did. So, I'll pass on the apology, thank you.

The expectation of an apology from the OP could be measured as selfish on the part of the BS in that the BS does not see the OP as a thinking, feeling, loving person. Just as the OP lacks a connection to the BS as a real person in many instances.

=^^= Excuse me?! Excuse me?! The BS is selfish??? Hahahaha. The BS is too damaged and hurt by the OW to think of the OW as having "feelings" for anyone but themselves, and perhaps the BS's H. Since the OW doesn't see BS as thinking, feeling and loving, you ask too, too much, CM, to expect it of us with NOTHING in return. As for seeing the OW as "loving", well, as long as she keeps those loving feelings in the appropriate realm of single guys, that's fine. As for seeing the OW as a "thinking" person...how could she ever see this destroyer as a "thinking" person when it is obvious this woman had no thought of anyone but herself? Who owes WHO an apology.

And WHY should BS have any connection to the OW as a "real" person when just the thought of them and what they have done to the BS's life and to her marriage, and to her family and to her life, stealing from her the sexual exclusivity in her marriage, stealing from her supreme right to be the only mother of her husband's children and sentencing her to a life of financial hardship is amazing to me. How can you expect the same consideration from BS's? What is a BS supposed to apologize to you for? Staying in her marriage? Loving her husband? Not wanting to pay CS to the OW for the privilege of waltzing in and getting herself knocked up and extorting huge chunks of money out of her pocket for a couple of decades???? C'mon, CM...THINK!

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

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No apologies from the ow she had the attitude much like happy girls ow. If she ever does I would feel much better about her.

When I did talk to her couple years ago she had the attitude like I was in the wrong for staying. Like I took something from her. I don’t think Ill ever understand how she thinks getting boinked three times by someone makes you the cats meow . I believe her plans really backfired. I really think she thought her getting pregnant would make my h run to her.

She may have a different state of mind now that it’s been over 3yrs and he has had nothing to do with her or her child. I really don’t think so though she uses the child support office to try to cause problems with us. Which that doesn’t work for her anymore either since h has no income the friend of the court has nothing to meddle in. The support is still the same and they leave us alone as long as I keep the money sent in once a month. So I’m glad to say it worked for us me having my own business and h being unemployed.

When I questioned her once about how she could bring a child into this world under such disgusting circumstances. Her reply was I guess I f***** up. So I guess that’s as good as it gets. If she raises him to be a good human being than that’s enough for me. We will see when he comes knocking at the door if she has done right by him.

Jenny I m not sure if you where asking if our h apologized to ow. My h feels she is pretty low and that she had set a trap to try to get him to leave me and make a home for her by not taking the pill and allowing a pregnancy. He also has a problem with her running around with an incurable std and not informing her partners first. Believe it or not he has a problem with women that go around having sex with someone that knows full well they are already taken. I find that strange sense he was no better then her. I haven’t figured that one out yet. So I would say no he would never apologize to her.

I think he will apologies to the boy for the choices his mother made and make it clear to him that she made all the choices to raise him without a father. That is if she never finds a man that can be the boy’s father. He still has hope that she will do this for her son now that she sees that he will never be involved. That he had made it clear to her he wanted no part in having a family with her before and after the fact but she had different plans.
With love flowerseed

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Hey Flowerseed, I wanted to say I'm happy for your and H's business. Betcha you have been real busy. Hope you haven't had any more episodes like the funny one you wrote me about last year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Catnip, as usual your claws come out when you try to explain BS side of things. The first and foremost I agree with is it all happened behind our backs while we knew nothing....only our H's were acting strange! Then....bang! The fiber of everything we thought was ours has been forever tainted by H and ow's roll in the hay...so to speak. (mine didn't use hay, but he should have because of her assinine ways.)

BTW he used the back seat of her car....in parking lots.... ahem...not a good thing for a "lasting relationship"

So carnal knowledge surely helps to prescind.

Don't you think?

Apology? Surely you jest...

And sometimes you have to taste porkchops to realize you really do love filet mignon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Not me of course because my diet never varies....Thank God! I know what I like...even when I wasn't sure why I liked it anymore....

love
Debi

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

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CM said: "The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. Why expect a connection when the two affair partner's part ways?"

I REPEAT:
KS, TG basically answered your question when she asked:

"Why can't the OW also express her responsibility and her sorrow for the pain inflicted upon the wife?"

Also, in cases where the OW knew the W, (or must deal with W in sharing OC!), does familiarity, even "friendship" NOT make a difference?
-------------------------------------

*My* XOW was at my home about every-other day during the A., pretending to be my friend, sharing childcare, and I could go on and on. While the wife and the XOP knowing each other is probably less than 50%, it is NOT RARE. Some members knew the Other Person as a "friend", relative, coworker, etc.

And even if they did not know each other prior to the affair, they may have to interact after the OC becomes known....

VISITATION, when it happens, should be a family event. How can the 2 sides interact with so much pain outstanding??

Adultery is wrong. Period. The only case I can think of in which the adulterers do not really owe the spouse(s) an apology is when the OP genuinely did not know the spouse was married--they were lied to.

That said, has my H apologized to XOW's xH? No. Do I think he should have? Yes. Do I think he should bring it up 4y later? Probably not.

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Whew!!! It looks like I definitely rattled a few cages. I expect responses, but not to this extent.

I guess what prompted this was, the OW, especially one with an OC, seems to expect to be treated on the same level as the wife and the marital family. Yet, she, in most cases, refuses to accept that she might have done something wrong. The implication to me being that she wants to have her cake and eat it too, even thought it may be only half a cake, so to speak.
She sleeps with another woman's husband, has the temerity to present him with an out of wedlock child and expects him to play daddy to a child outside of his marriage and probably he did not plan on conceiving. Most men engage in affairs as an escape from a problem they have not addressed. This problem is one that is personal to them and not necessarily problematic within the marriage. My own H's problem was low self-esteem and reaching a point in his career where he seemed to be dead-ending. Rather than address his problems or concerns to me he succumbed to the lure of a much younger woman who made him feel young and irresponsible. He was running away from responsibilities. She just presented him with another, and almost cost him his marriage
Now, I don't care if she apolized to him, that is between them. Yet when I talked to her, she refused to accept the fact that she was as responsible as he was for her condition and their child. She would not to accept that he would not get involved with their child. She expected him to be daddy to their child like he is to our children. She made no attempt to be conciliatory to me and at that time I held all of the cards. He was staying with me, our children and wanted nothing more to do with her.
Does anyone else feel that often the OW feels she is entitled to something for sleeping with our H's? Somehow she is owed something and the wife is a nonentity? Like "Poor thing, he only stayed with you because he felt sorry for you and he knew he would lose his children?"
I know I feared that at first, but my H has expended so much energy to show me that his affair was such a MISTAKE and one he wishes he could undo. He is with me because he CHOSE me over her. He wanted me, not her. And before another OW attacks me and says I am deluding myself, don't bother. It has been 9 years since he walked that path. If he had wanted to leave either for her or because he didn't love me, he could have at anytime. He didn't.
Before, any of the OW who post here that usually contribute in a favorable manner get their feelings hurt or feel attacked, please don't feel that way. This is not meant as an attack on you all. This was just a thought that has been rattling around in my head and heart for a while.
If you look at how long I have been here you will see how long it has been.
Please respond one and all, just keep it civil.

Thank you and I love you all,
TG
PS Catnip, I love it when you come on strong. That is one of your strengths.

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This is actually something om's wife and I discussed at great length, before she became involved with my daughter. I wrote and told her how sorry I was and asked that she forgive me, It was not an easy thing to do. , but I felt this woman would soon be with my child and I needed to make some sort of amends so we could work to gether for the good of us all. I could not have a woman who had so much hate for me[although deserving] be around my child, it was imperative that we come to an understanding. she and I have worked our butts off trying to do that. Hasnt been easy for either of us.. The only one totally comfortable with it is om. She and I spoke many times, and I tried hard to answer any questions she had, with out being rude or too personal, if it was something I didnt want to upset her, I just told her, I thought that should be between her and OM.

She has told me that was the only way she was even able to begin to forgive me and move on.. She also has expressed great concern over the fact that her husband refused to apologize to mine. She even wrote my husband and told him this. OM's ego however will not let him say the words I am sorry.
I dont think my husband wanted to hear what he had to say any way.. but in time they have managed to come to some sort of communication skills and they do this by emersing themselves in business, and om, makes sure he refers to my husband as daddy when ever they are both together. It is a little weird seeing them stand around discussing work, but better than fighting I suppose. My husband does not like OM, and yes he knew him before the A. But he doesnt hate him either. indifferent , maybe thats a good word for it. I dont know.

While OM and OW are not deserving of any ones sympathy, these are all still people, and they have hearts and feelings, and yes, they too hurt.

Maybe they have no right I dont know, But when your heart is breaking, most are not thinking at that moment about the bs.

I think when the WS tells the other person for so long, all the bad stuff about the BS, Op starts to believe it all and doesnt spend time worrying over the BS any longer.

No I cant say for all those one night stands out there, I dont have a clue. I would guess there are no feelings on either part how could there be. And why would you want a stranger help raise your child , it would seem very strange to even want contact in that case, would scare me to death.
I had a hard enough time letting om and his wife have contact. I knew she would be safe with them. At first his wife wanted nothing to do with baby, he had convinced her he wanted to be with the baby, she had decided to sit on the side, till she saw her..

I for one felt I owed her an apology, I spent almost as many years as she had been married to him. I spent more hours out of every day with him than she did. I basically took years out of her marriage, and she has a right to hate me.. so this we all agree on. I also think it has taken great courage and love on her part to accept my child and try so hard to love her.

We still would both rather eat dirt than spend he day with each other, although om would like us to be great friends, WE do not want to be and I am quite sure both us us think he is crazy to try and make that happen.

I know I retired from this site, must be addictive or something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

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I think I got lost I though someone was asking if h apologized to ow there was no om in our case she was single living of whoever she could sponge off until she got her sperm donation and was able to qualify for low income housing.

Gem things are starting to slow down we are doing great. Just got me a brand new computer you will have to email me so I have your address again. No more incidents we have a job trailer now so I don’t have them problems anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

You think a back seat is bad try to picture the romance of conceiving a child in a waste water treatment plant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Kind of fitting for this type of situation don’t ya think.

Texas (Does anyone else feel that often the OW feels she is entitled to something for sleeping with our H's?)
Yeah I get that impression .I think she believes because he strayed with her she had something special <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . He is a devoted father to our child and she knew this.
I don’t know if it has ever sunk in to her little mind that she was used for a few quick minutes. My h was quit insecure in our relationship at the time and used her to get back at me for making him feel so insecure.
Thank goodness he has learned to talk about his feelings instead of going about things the way he used to.
With love flowerseed

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my trashy OW didn't bother apologizing for sleeping with my H.

She didn't apologize for trying to get pregnant (even when she admitted trying).

She didn't apologize for soliciting him for sex many times after he told her he was staying and rebuilding our marriage.

She didn't apologize for using every excuse in the book to get him over there (during contact) to falicitate her sexual advances.

She didn't even have the decency to apologize after DNA proved my H wasn't the father.

Bottom line ... the woman has no remorse for what she's done to my family or hers. I guess that's obvious when she has FOUR kids out of wedlock.

My OW is pure scum and has not remorse whatsoever.

Am I pissy about it ... yes ... and probably always will be when it comes to her.

Z.

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Well I say good for everyone who can be a proud single woman knocked up out of wedlock and raising a kid without a dad. Hold your head up high! Where I come from, it's a shame. Where I come from adultery is a shameful act. I'm not saying go around living life like you are less than or unworthy of forgiveness from God, yourself, and others--if possible, I'm just submitting that "OW pain" would probably fall somewhere in that category. Of course, it doesn't apply to every situation. Did that strike a nerve??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Didn't mean to...

Oh well... I'm not ashamed of my OC. I'm very proud of all my kids. They have all risen above their individual challenges and are very tough people. God gave them all exactly what they need in this life. I'm not ashamed of my decision to keep and raise my OC alone because you're right, you do have to develop thick skin to all the strong opinions flying around you in this tough situation. That kinda goes without saying...

Nevertheless, I will pray for your situation Matthew. God sees your heart and He knows what you need. Sometimes we have to simply trust God with the decisions our H's make esp. when/if we don't agree. That's where submission comes in. Not so much submission to the H, but submission to God's love for us. He sees. He knows. He cares. He will help.

From the MB standpoint, there are three people who are involved in Surviving An Affair: OP, WS, and BS.

I don't know if it is always possible to get the apologies we need from those who have wronged us. That's where prayer comes in. That's where healing from above comes in. All the apologies in the WORLD will never right the willful wrongs done to the BS or the OC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

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You said a mouthful btdt,

"All the apologies in the WORLD will never right the willful wrongs done to the BS or the OC."

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TG said
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess what prompted this was, the OW, especially one with an OC, seems to expect to be treated on the same level as the wife and the marital family. Yet, she, in most cases, refuses to accept that she might have done something wrong. The implication to me being that she wants to have her cake and eat it too, even thought it may be only half a cake, so to speak.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's kind of how I feel. The way I look at it though is in MOST cases, they want and expect the same things not because of personal resentment, but because now that this innocent little child is here and in their care almost exclusively, they want the world for them. They want mom and dad to be in love, but if not in love, then at least friends that admire one another and can get along.
They want dad behave as though this was a child conceived out of love. They fear that the child will feel unloved, especially if there are children from the marriage that receive dad's love and attention already.
All of this sums up to what I've labled as the "backpeddling syndrome" on the OW's part. You make decisions that are not in the best interest of your unborn children and then when cute little baby is here, you want the best for them....BUT YOU DIDN'T PLAN, PREPARE, AND MAKE SOUND DECISIONS AND PERSONAL SACRIFICES TO OFFER THEM THE BEST FROM THE GET GO.
This by no means is exclusive to ow/o parents. I see my sister deal with the same back peddling syndrome. She has two babies by the same man and they're not married. Now that the relationship is sour, she wants all of the stability, love, admiration and family bonding afforded to married couples. But she can't go back. She can only see things for what they are (like it or not) and raise her babies to not feel disabled or lacking in any way because of their upbringing.
To sum up my long response, in some cases, yes, I think the ow is acting out of resentment and feelings of entitlement because MM has chosen to stay w/ wife and kids. And in some cases, I they truly just want for their child what can not (in most cases) be provided and it BITES THEM IN THE [censored].

Please understand that my response is not intended to judge single parents. My mom was a single parent for most of my youth and she did the best she could. I knew in some areas of my life I was lacking, but what mom could not provide, GOD did.

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Well I say good for everyone who can be a proud single woman knocked up out of wedlock and raising a kid without a dad. Hold your head up high! Where I come from, it's a shame. Where I come from adultery is a shameful act. I'm not saying go around living life like you are less than or unworthy of forgiveness from God, yourself, and others--if possible, I'm just submitting that "OW pain" would probably fall somewhere in that category. Of course, it doesn't apply to every situation. Did that strike a nerve??? Didn't mean to...

I am guessing you wouldnt have said it if you didnt want to strike a nerve.
I dont believe it is any more shameful, than for a husband to produce a child while he is married to someone else. And then to deny that child. He should be ashamed of himself, at least most of these shameful women, keep thier child and face responsibility. and I doubt most have a child to keep the man, seems silly, I was more shocked than he was, after all he made up his vasectomy story. But I wasnt going to kill a baby, or gve her up for adoption, when I was am capable of gving her love, and providing for her.


Your right, apologies do not make up for every thing, But it sure doesnt hurt, The only thing that makes it better, is to do the best you can, and make the future better, If you let anger eat you up the rest of your life, think of all the precious time your wasting. I believe someone said you have to forgive your selves... Just as the om in these situations learn to forgive themselves, I dont think the other woman are much different.

SO all those women out there who have a child and took responsibility, Hold your head up high, because you did what you needed to do. You took responsibility for your actions and are working hard to provide a good and loving home for your child. Your child will thank you for loving them enough to keep them and raise them. If you have no help from the man who ran away when he produced a child, then get the help you need through the courts and move on, if they are so uncaring as to want nothing to do with his child, then you do not really want them around that sweet baby any way.

If I had not kept my baby, I would not be married, I would have never ever forgave my husband for insisting I give her up. NO way.

these are just my personal feelings, I am not attacking any one. But feel very strongly about this.. so please think nothign of it, it is not directed at any one, merely thinking outloud so to speak,.

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I think we are entitled to our individual perspective on this one.
I personally do not feel that my relationship with my ex was about anyone except him and I and the issues we had as individuals. He has also shared with me that is how he too feels where our relationship/feelings were concerned.
I do not and never did want to be in his wife's shoes. The jealousy factor baffles me in terms of thinking that ow wants to be the bs. More so, I'd say that the OP is frustrated with the fact that the ws is measuring factors such as money and having to pay alimony and losing house and land and bank accounts should a seperation occur. I personally feel sorry for his wife, as she has no idea who her husband really is and what his voids are.
Look, we can debate why an op should or shouldn't apologize all day long. The reality is that everyone in the affair has been burnt in some manner. If all involved can go to their own corner of the ring and leave eachother alone, then in my opinion, that is a good thing. Again, this is my opinion and experience only; I thought you wanted an answer or perspective that may be one you hadn't realized before. That being the lack of connection to you, the bs. I really see it as that straitforward. Right, wrong or indifferent as it may be, that is more often the case than not.

CM

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Flowerseed, you asked,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> (Does anyone else feel that often the OW feels she is entitled to something for sleeping with our H's?) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't feel that I am entitled to anything. But I would like to know that my OM had the courage to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for his actions.

My OM is the one who lied, cheated, deceived, used me, blew his wad and then skipped off into the sunset with his wife, leaving me to deal with the consequences of a pregnancy. He knew I was in a troubled marriage, knew we were in counseling trying to work it out. Preyed on me like an animal and then took off like a shot when I got pregnant and decided to stay with my H.

Yes, I was the one who decided to end it and stay with my H. Finally the light bulb clicked on and I saw what I had and what I almost threw away for OM.

So because of that, does that absolve OM from all responsibility? He sure thinks so. Yes, I could go after him for child support. But why should I have to? Where is his sense of responsbility? If I were his wife I don't think I could rest knowing that he did that and is just turning his back on the whole thing as if it never happened. Why should I be the only one (along with my husband) to have the life altering change? Because I chose to give my child life?

I realize many of you have "evil" OW, who only want to wreck havoc on your lives. But there are some of us (OW) who are decent people, only trying to piece our lives back together, now with a child, and make the best out of a tough situation.

I've gone from a full-time, well-paying job, to a part-time, much less paying position, just so I can spend as much time with my child as I can. We are choking financially and could really use the income that child support would allow. But because I don't want to wreck havoc on OM's life, and I don't want contact with him, I've decided not to expend the energy and cost to to go after him for child support.

I guess my question is what is OM's responsiblity in all this?

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Everyone has been hurt. Hurt is hurt.

True.

Some people get hurt crossing the street in the crosswalk.

Some get hurt jaywalking.

Some get hurt standing in the street watching a car they see speeding down the street .... and they refuse to step out of the way.

Some seem to jump in front of that speeding car on purpose!

Hurt is hurt.

Reckless is reckless.

Pepper

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 08:22 AM: Message edited by: Pepperband ]</small>

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NP,

Interesting that you bring up the financial aspect. My -ex told me when I revealed to him that my H may loose his job over the next few months, that I have a great job that pays well and hey, my brother is wealthy, so why not ask him for help if we need it?
Ah, what??
I told him that he can forget my asking my brother for a dime. I also told him that if he is worried about having to pay cs, he should contact an attorney of his own. He claims he isn't and that if we want him to pay cs, he will.. And, oh, what about contact? Guess he equates paying cs with some right to see my child.
If you and your H need the financial support, don't feel guilty about pursing it. I would suggest contacting an attorney in your state to find out what your rights are and ask all of your questions before dismissing the idea.

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You guys have to understand something, Most of these women are not having a baby to hurt you, or make your life miserable, I did not apologise for having a baby, I said I was sorry I had the affair.

When a woman is having a baby, reguardless of the circumstances, most of the time, keeping that baby and loving him/her is the most natural response int he world. Thats why God made us mothers. We nurture and care for our children. I am not saying there are not any bad mothers, But maybe just maybe you should think the woman kept the baby, not to get om, but because she became pregnant and the most natural thing in the world for her to do, Is give birth and care for her child. That is not about the BS... or OM. It is about a mother and her child.
I did not carry my baby to term, because I wanted om, I carried her to term, because I found my self pregnant, and knew I now had a responsibility to care for and love this child.
Very simple

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Mo5,
There is defiantly shame but not for walking away. The shame I see in my h is that he was foolish and did something very wrong by betraying me and our daughter and now there is a living reminder of that act.
My opinion is if you bring a child into the world in this matter as the ow in our case and are not capable of taking the responsibly of raising that child on your own then you have nothing to be proud of. I would never be able to take money from a family if I had screwed someone else’s h and produced a child because of it. To me that would be something that would make me even more ashamed. Just my thoughts. flowerseed

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NPLH wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I guess my question is what is OM's responsiblity in all this? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I cannot speak from your situation, but in ours which resulted in a three night stand, we filed first because we felt it was right (pending DNA) that Child Support is a given. Mr. "T" and ex-ow argued extensively before the birth her child about adoption, Mr."T"'s involvement, the child's last name (given without Mr."T"'s permission---but it doesn't matter and now isn't even an issue for us anymore we have no contact).

I do believe that if the child is the man's he is financially responsible. I also believe in Child Support that is fair, so that the children of the home (who were there before the OC) standard of living doesn't suffer as much either. I resent unfair CS payments, but never FAIR payments...that child does deserve to be cared for.

I also believe, that since Mr."T" and ex-ow couldn't agree on what was best for the child, Mr. "T" chose adoption and since Ex-ow couldn't give up her child (understandable speaking from a mother's point of view) then the next best thing Mr."T" decided to do was give sole care and custody over to ex-ow. Essentially making the child hers solely. We still pay our financial obligation, but it shows ex-ow in black and white, that she couldn't force his hand into any emotional involvement.

They could never agree on anything and Mr."T" felt that in the long run, arguing over every little thing with a stranger he barely knew over the fate of "his half of the child" wasn't in the best interest for everybody involved. He told our MC that he just wanted his life back the way it was pre-three night stand, and realizes that he screwed it up badly.

Of course, our case is different, I know for gospel fact that the ex-ow in our case was after Mr."T"...and I hold Mr."T" accountable for what he did. Y'all would be surprised at some of the things I rag Mr."T" about. But I try not to LB.

Anyways, what I guess I'm answering from our point of view is the MM/OM absolutely owes child support....I can speak from experience...my ex-husband is trying to get out of his financial obligation and we just NOW saved up the money for the retainer for my Attorney to go after him. Instead of paying $200 a month for two girls, he will now be ordered to pay $700 a month. Dinobon is bi-polar and requires special needs. My ex-Husband re-married and has no children. We are asking for fairness. Mr."T" has been paying for my two children from my first marriage 100%, since my ex was a dead-beat dad...

I see both sides when it comes to financial obligation....BUT...as far as emotional involvement and support,

I have found that Mr."T" is more of a Daddy to my two girls than their bio-dad. They are healthy, happy girls and I raised them myself until I married Mr."T". I accepted responsibility for myself and raised them without my ex-'s involvement. It's all in how you raise the child.

Anyways...off on a tangent here...I'll shut up...
that's my situation and my POV on my situation...

You can make a man pay financially....but you can never force them to be a "part" if they chose not to or disagree with what the mother wants in her life. I guess that's what I was trying to say.

Hugs,
Twiisty

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Flowerseed, you wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> My opinion is if you bring a child into the world in this matter as the ow in our case and are not capable of taking the responsibly of raising that child on your own then you have nothing to be proud of. I would never be able to take money from a family if I had screwed someone else&#8217;s h and produced a child because of it. To me that would be something that would make me even more ashamed. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Then do you feel the MM has any responsibility at all towards the OC he helped produce? Or do you feel his responsibility is only to his wife and family, regardless of his actions with OP?

Don't mean to trigger any bad vibes, just wondering what another's point of view is on this subject.)

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Om's responsibility is to his W if he wants to stay in the marriage.

The way my H sees it is this: He dropped the ball thinking ow was still on the pill, and trying to end it all that summer, ow had different ideas and wanted ME to know what H was doing. Hoping I'd leave. He finally said go ahead and tell my W! I don't want to do this anymore....Well,,,,

ow picked up the ball H dropped and ran to the goal line with it. After he begged her to not do it, not destroy her H and existing C's lives. She talked about not being able to have another abortion as she had one in high school and couldn't do it again. And not to worry she'd keep the secret and do it alone.

Three lies! Lying along w/my H during affair, telling H she was on pill, saying she'd keep a secret.

Someday H would like the opportunity to tell her how she ruined his and oc's life with her choice..he never bargained for an oc. Oc didn't deserve being born into that situation, with the sadness of a funeral the day he was born...Sadness from her H, my H, and all the rest of our families.

We could beat this into the ground over and over.

I have to say though, why on earth would a woman choose to bear a child to ANY man she's not married to? Let alone the father is married? What possible outcome do women think can happen?

BTW, most ow must think the reason mm and w don't divorce is because of finance and original children. That is not true. If mm truly wanted a different life and oc, nothing would keep him away. Saying this because ow in our case wrote how sorry she felt for me and that h was scared of losing his $ on a divorce, when in actuality it wasn't true.

Just another lie they tell op to keep them at bay......

If it were true the opposite would happen, they would divorce to keep the cs police away that usually render a man close to penniless.

So paying is mm responsibility.

Turning your back on someone you didn't want to exist may be the same as turning your back on your w during A. They just do it.

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well your husband should have thought about that before he produced a child, He knows how to use protection.
why should that single mother not try and get some help.. I have never been to court, om and I just worked out every thing our selves, I dont need the money , so It isnt an issue, But when a mother has a child, she owes that child a home and security and if that man produced a child from his affair, or what ever it was. Then he should be the one ashamed of the fact that he is now taking money from his wife and children, because of something he did.

But I agree about one thing, If a parent can not afford to take care of a child, and does not have the resources to do so, she should not have a baby, Finding a good home would be better.
There are many single mothers out there, who work very hard to provide, because the men in their life, do nothing to help them. They raise fine upstanding children and work hard all their lives to do so.

I know paying child support can not be easy, but that child deserves the support of both parents and if that can not be emotional support on both parts , then he should be financially responsible. Unfortunately that is a result of having a child out of an affair.

I am sure I would be very angry if I had to write a check for my husbands ow every month. But I would be more dissapointed if my husband fathered a child and wanted nothing to do with that child ever. I am not saying the other woman , just that child. But thats just me. I also know my husband would not could not walk away from a baby. He didnt walk away from my daughter, that afternoon at the hospital, visitors, who used to work with us, came by to see the baby, and daddy[my husband ] introduced every one to his baby girl. He cant imagine life with out her, and if I were to divorce him you can be sure he would demand to be part of her life as well.
I do understand you hate the other woman, I have felt that hate before, for many years.. some days it practically ruled my life... But you know what, yes they new my husband was married and did not care, But my husband told so many lies to get them in bed, once, and then he never looked back, he was the one at fault , they didnt owe me any thing, but he sure as heck did.

HE BAD MOUTHED ME AND GOT THEM TO GIVE HIM SYMPATHY, then when I would find out and want to throw him out, he would beg to stay.
I know some of these ow, cause all kinds of craziness, and But they are not all like that, and while you are entittled to feel all the hate and anger..

I will be honest, when om and I broke up after all those years and he told me he wouldnt be aable to see our child, I was hurt , devistated in fact, I had given him years of my life... But you know what, I didnt contact them, didnt call, I walked away and didnt look back, He wanted to see the baby, and I had a hard time seeing him for the first time, I was still angry and we had a lot to move past.
He saw the baby in secret for a year, every single week, and called almost every day, one day I woke up and said enough is enough, if you want to be a daddy, then do it in the open, be a man, I want know part of the secrets... He felt guilty for what he had done, and felt bad he turned his back on me. I think he still has issues with it to this day.

It isnt his wifes fault, your right, and had it not been me, it would have been someone else, maybe not as long, but someone. But it is his child and he does owe this baby a good life just as I do, and when she grows up, she will know we both love her and she can feel free to love us both. It isnt about me any more. It isnt about him any more. It is about my daughter now.

I know every situation is different, and I am sure no contact is needed in some situations, But reguardless if there is or isnt contact, the men have to be responsible in some way... How ever those women seeking this should understand it might involve visitation as well, and if you feel this is not in your childs best intrest, I think you should rethink what approach you take.

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CMiranda, wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, oh, what about contact? Guess he equates paying cs with some right to see my child. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, that's where I would draw the line. If OM paid child support, in my mind that would be him owning up to his responsibility. Regardless of whether he wanted this child or not, why should he get to just walk away? Especially in my case where it was him who pursued me to no end. I would not desire contact, nor wish for my child to be in OM's life at all.

And (Flowerseed) I just wanted to clarify, its not that I'm not capable of finacially caring for my child. All I'm saying is that it is tight with not a whole lot of breathing room. But that's ok. I'm not complaining. Our basic needs are met.

My point is that I just don't see how someone can just walk away and not feel ANY SENSE of obligation.

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Someday H would like the opportunity to tell her how she ruined his and oc's life with her choice..he never bargained for an oc. Oc didn't deserve being born into that situation, with the sadness of a funeral the day he was born...Sadness from her H, my H, and all the rest of our families.

That is definatley sad.. I cant imagine the birth being like a funeral, But I do remember hearing this from a few others... OM was not there for the birth, But, my husband, children and family and friends, were all very excited, My husband was a great help to me during labor, and had a smile on his face so big , when little one was born. SHe was so beautiful mY entire family was thrilled she was here and so healthy.

I dont know any thing about the ow in your case, but dont you think there is a chance that child will grow up happy and and loved and not think he was a mistake?
I dont think the chance to tell a child he should not have been born, is so heroic, Why crush a child, who you already abandoned. what would it solve.

In time oc will be told why mommy and daddy dont live together, and she will know her circumstances, But she will know we loved her enough to keep her and that our lives are the better for it.
om has asked me to remember to tell her all the stories he shared with me over the years and about his family and his parents that he shared, I have pictures of them all, and he wrote her a letter, telling her how much he and I meant to each other and hOW MUCH HE LOVES HER.

He wants her to grow up and know that we gave her life because we wanted and loved her. I dont think thats so bad. Why hurt a child on purpose ?

Do I think it is important to tell her, that for the last 7 months of the pregnancy he ran away and wanted nothing to do with her ? Do I tell her he came to me begging forgiveness and asking to please let him help me raise her, and that at first I wasnt so willing ? DO I tell her om's wife said he could never lay eyes on her, or let her know that om's wife loves her as well... why cause more pain what would your husband gain from it, except trying to ease his guilt, or to hurt an child who doesnt deserve to be hurt...
Just curious, I do not mean to offend, Just see things differently and want to understand.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 09:36 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

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no place

I understand what your saying, I think when om and I vbroke up after years of being together, after, all the promises, and picking out baby names together, the fact that he thought he could just walk away and be able to turn his back on our baby, amazed me, this was a man who had professed loved for me for years, had convinced me to leave my husband, had taken over my life, and now he was just gonna walk away!? I was so dissapointed, not because I couldnt do it with out him, but because I thought he was better than that.

and while HARD i AM GLAD IT TURNS OUT HE WAS BETTER THAN THAT.

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CM~~"I personally do not feel that my relationship with my ex was about anyone except him and I and the issues we had as individuals."

I agree. But, CM, I see one of YOUR issues... one that allowed you to date and fall in love with a married man. That is certainly about you.

You and MM we driving a car in secrecy ... so you had the lights off at night so no one would see you together. Your eyes were on each other. You were alone in your little "together" world and the outside world ceased to exist.

Why did you need to drive at night with no headlights? For secrecy. Why did you need secrecy to fall in love? Because both of you had families that would not tolerate your going outside the marriage. So, in that sense, your relationship with MM , and the requirement that it be conducted in secrecy, very much entered into the way you conducted your relationship.

To further the analogy, MM's wife and kids were victims of a hit and run while they were crossing the sidewalk ... being where they were supposed to be, doing what they were suposed to be doing .... They could not identify the car that hit them ... it was dark, and the car was driving without lights. YOU , as a passenger in the car that struck them, have no reason to apologize to them. "After all I was not driving that car. MM was." Did you ever say, "Driving without lights in secret is dangerous. someone could get hurt."?

People did get hurt. ALL of you got hurt. The worst injury (in MY opinion) is YOUR child!

You owe YOUR child an apology. You were reckless, and he pays the price. You were reckless, and MM's wife and children pay the price.

To apologize is to elevate yourself. You were not in that darkened car hoping to run someone over .... but, you were in that car because you did not chose to consider the damage one can do in the darkness of secrecy and deception.

To recognize the danger you are placing others in by YOUR actions, is a mark of a spiritually evolved human.

Rise above this. Recognize the damage done at your hands. It is a burden God will help you carry if you ask with contrition.

Take care...

Pepper

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
<strong>CMiranda, wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And, oh, what about contact? Guess he equates paying cs with some right to see my child. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">See, that's where I would draw the line. If OM paid child support, in my mind that would be him owning up to his responsibility. Regardless of whether he wanted this child or not, why should he get to just walk away? Especially in my case where it was him who pursued me to no end. I would not desire contact, nor wish for my child to be in OM's life at all.

And (Flowerseed) I just wanted to clarify, its not that I'm not capable of finacially caring for my child. All I'm saying is that it is tight with not a whole lot of breathing room. But that's ok. I'm not complaining. Our basic needs are met.

My point is that I just don't see how someone can just walk away and not feel ANY SENSE of obligation.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">NP,

I hear you. First of all, all OM's know how to spell condom. Pill or no pill, they have the choice to use a condom. It is amazing that my ex never uttered a word about bc of any kind. He told me he often wondered about my getting pregnant and how he foresaw that event as one that would push him to end his fence sitting duty. He didn't ever believe I wouldn't chose him in the event of him and I conceiving together. Big surprise. It was a wakeup call for me as I began to see him as someone other than the perfect guy I thought he was and I shuttered at the thought of being his wife or leaving my H for him. Just as you also realized, it would have been a mistake.
I see him now and I thank God I ended things with him and didn't go any further toward ending my M.
I would not want a man who could turn his back on his resposibilites toward his child. He is lacking in his values. I believe that some bs feel that ws chose them over ow and oc but the reality, in my situation at least, is that he settled for the easy way and path of least resistance. He loves no one more than he loves himself. That is how I it.

If I felt vindictive or bitter or hateful, I'd forgo any friendly conversations with him as I have had in the past, I'd take him to court and get back at him for doing things to me and to his wife than neither of us deserved. My rational mind knows that in my case, that is not the best way to heal for myself and my marriage. I want to be forgiving as I need to be forgiven. That is all that I want at this time although I too feel angry at him just as you do your -ex.

CM

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> He loves no one more than he loves himself. That is how I it.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">such a very true statement one that I came to realise the hard way

CM EMPTY YOUR EMAIL, NO ROOM

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 10:06 AM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

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CM wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I felt vindictive or bitter or hateful, I'd forgo any friendly conversations with him as I have had in the past, I'd take him to court and get back at him for doing things to me and to his wife than neither of us deserved </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">says it all...really....and in doing so, if the wife chose to stand by her husband, then the court costs, the finances etc. are ruined anyway and the wife and the kids suffer yet again.

I agree with you in your other post about men should know how to wear a condom...a fact that I shove in my H's face more than I should. (Gotta work on my LB's) everytime the phone gets cut off or I'm sitting in the dark w/o electricity, I remind him of the expensive screw he had and how it wasn't worth all this. But I'm in the business of trying recover from this. In my case, the spur of a moment quickie settled it for us...condom or not...

Yep My H was selfish, thinking only of the pleasure at the moment. He was selfish for using another woman's A$$. He was selfish for putting me through what he did. I openly admit that.

My OW was selfish too. That's a fact too.

I like what you wrote at the end of that quote," I want to forgive and be forgiven, despite my anger" or something like that....that's good. Let go of the vindicativeness...I'm trying to....even though I want to wring my ex-ow's neck...I already wrung Mr."T"'s ....

Peace,
Twiisty

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No,MO5, H doesn't want to tell oc he ruined his life. Ow is who he'd like to tell.

H feels so sorry that just because of oc, ow has no dad in any of her c's lives. H feels responsible and sick for that. It's a choice that ow made alone. No one agreed. Not her family and certainly not ours. We now pay cs. It's the best she can expect.

BTW she can wipe her as* with it as she's wealthy.
She's doing it because she can. We don't even think about it too much any more. Oc will know at least his father did that. That does make us less guilty, don't you think?

BUT ow chose this life after all involved begged her not to do it. Including her H who asked her to move w/him and relocate as he couldn't bear the shame being in a small community. Everyone knew...everyone talked...her H comes from a well known family...she didn't go, and it forever affected her c's!

Her H has since divorced her.

Truly sad for all involved.

Hey, BTW, her oldest c's blame my H for their Dad being so far away. Oldest D gave us the finger when we saw her at a store one day. She's 13. Her son doesn't look our way when we see him. Her youngest D is just plain sad. Then there is oc who still doesn't know anything......

Ow lives 1/2 mile from us and we see her driving around weekly. Usually alone w/c's.

I run into her without trying as we frequent same stores, restaurants, roads, etc.

H and I just look the other way. We usually just thank God we are together as seeing her reminds us weekly what we almost lost. That's another reason we're moving. Ow goes out of her way to get us to notice her. We're weary of that and just want peace and to continue our lives.

We are tired of being sick and tired <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

That's just our story. Everyone has their own.

I hoped this helped to explain why some men don't visit oc. It's a choice they usually make when they find out about pregnancy. Then guilt finds it's way and they are torn because of what they've done to oc/W/own c's. It's just not easy.

Yes, H could have used protection. Thanks for reminding me about something he beats himself up for along with ever betraying me in the first place. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

I almost forgot what this thread was about...apology....nope...don't want it...she posed as our friend, remember? My H posed as her H's friend. It's just so unfortunate for all of us. My H's apology is all I need.

Debi

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 10:19 AM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by twiisty:
<strong>CM wrote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">If I felt vindictive or bitter or hateful, I'd forgo any friendly conversations with him as I have had in the past, I'd take him to court and get back at him for doing things to me and to his wife than neither of us deserved </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">says it all...really....and in doing so, if the wife chose to stand by her husband, then the court costs, the finances etc. are ruined anyway and the wife and the kids suffer yet again.

I agree with you in your other post about men should know how to wear a condom...a fact that I shove in my H's face more than I should. (Gotta work on my LB's) everytime the phone gets cut off or I'm sitting in the dark w/o electricity, I remind him of the expensive screw he had and how it wasn't worth all this. But I'm in the business of trying recover from this. In my case, the spur of a moment quickie settled it for us...condom or not...

Yep My H was selfish, thinking only of the pleasure at the moment. He was selfish for using another woman's A$$. He was selfish for putting me through what he did. I openly admit that.

My OW was selfish too. That's a fact too.

I like what you wrote at the end of that quote," I want to forgive and be forgiven, despite my anger" or something like that....that's good. Let go of the vindicativeness...I'm trying to....even though I want to wring my ex-ow's neck...I already wrung Mr."T"'s ....

Peace,
Twiisty</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Twiisty,

You are right, the victims of the A pile up. I am feeling particularily angry at -exom right now. I am not really sure why. I ended it yet he let me end it and it is possible that I'm just now realizing that he got away the easy way. It infuriates me that I am hurting, my H is hurting and his poor wife is clueless. It is as if we are all his fools at this point in time. I'd feel like kicking him but I do not want to knock his wife and kids into the mud, just him, I think I'd feel better temporarily if I could knock his feet out from beneath him just once. Although, living well, I believe is really enough over the long haul.
I am not looking to rub anyones face in the condom thing. I honestly am not. I just can not (in hindsight more or less) fathom how this man never considered it, never spoke of it over 6 1/2 years. It wasn't as if we had a 3 night stand, like yours did. Alot of the last few years with him, now strike me as just plain baffling. I can't for the life of me understand how I let him get away with half of what he did. I honestly feel sorry for his wife. She is a very nice person, from what I know of her, and it really is a shame that she has no idea what a selfish, self centered, self absorbed man she is married to. It is now that everything is coming together for me and fueling my intenses anger. I will get over it and hopefully move on to a much happier place; for the time being, I am boiling over with anger at him and he in turn is blaming me, he told me that I ended it,not him.
I am sane enough to realize that acting on my anger at this time is not in everyones best interest but you're right, when an OP lashes out at the WS, everyone suffers. Its the sad reality of broken relationships. I have been yelling and taking shots at him for many months, and while he just takes it, lets me vent, and keeps trying to convince me that we can be "friends", I know that it is time for me to stop and move on. I don't believe that we can ever be friends.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]well your husband should have thought about that before he produced a child, He knows how to use protection. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And every woman knows how to protect her body from getting pregnant.

Women are in control as to whether or not there will be sex unless they are forced through rape. Women call the shots. They alone determine whether or not they allow themselves to be screwed. Women call all the shots from the very beginning ...from the first time of the sex encounter, to conception, to whether or not to carry to term, whether or not to keep child and whether or not to go after CS and whether or not to allow contact.

The power is all with the women from beginning to end, alpha to omega.

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i agree catnip, I knew I could get pregnant, reguardless of what he said, I trusted him as well and didnt have a reason to think he owuld make up the story about vasectomy... so I ended up pregnant, I took responsibility for that, I dont feel sorry for my self in the least, I knew better... .

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then men know they can get someone pregnant as well, they know they are doing wrong, they know how to say NO.... They know how to keep it to themselves...
I am sorry an argument that doesnt work, I dont feel sorry for either party

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
[QB]well your husband should have thought about that before he produced a child, He knows how to use protection. QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">And every woman knows how to protect her body from getting pregnant.

Women are in control as to whether or not there will be sex unless they are forced through rape. Women call the shots. They alone determine whether or not they allow themselves to be screwed. Women call all the shots from the very beginning ...from the first time of the sex encounter, to conception, to whether or not to carry to term, whether or not to keep child and whether or not to go after CS and whether or not to allow contact.

The power is all with the women from beginning to end, alpha to omega.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">When I got preg. I was using bc. Once I got preg., there was no choice for me as I personally never considered any other solution other than to have my beloved baby. I did not believe I had any other choice based on my beliefs and feelings. I wanted my child, period.

Men do not determine if they allow themselves to be "screwed"? How is it that an erection can be forced?

Men do not determine how to protect their bodies from distributing their seed?

Men do not have the right to seek visitation?

Men do not have the right to pay support without going to court? Men do not have the right to pay their share of support on their own, without being forced?

You are giving us women far too much power I feel.
Men who run and hide may feel that women hold all the cards perhaps.?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She is a very nice person, from what I know of her, and it really is a shame that she has no idea what a selfish, self centered, self absorbed man she is married to </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">cm I would bet your wrong, I bet she has more of a clue to his personality than you realise, think of your wife instincs... she doesnt know about your sweet little one, but I bet she knows he isnt as nice as he makes out to be.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>then men know they can get someone pregnant as well, they know they are doing wrong, they know how to say NO.... They know how to keep it to themselves...
I am sorry an argument that doesnt work, I dont feel sorry for either party</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">We all do know how babies are conceived. Yup, we do. Unless we are mentally incapacitated, we know. We run that risk when we have sex. Man, woman, makes no difference. We know. We take the risk. With that gamble are consequences. Not just for the woman, but for the poor little ole man too.

Cry me a river.

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And most men are children and have horrible coping skills and since the beginnning of time, these delayed adolescent men have run from domestic situations into the arms of another because of something lacking within them. Usually maturity, I suppose. There are few "real" men out there today, because if there were, there wouldn't be much of this going on. The selfishness stuns me.

There are also few men in crisis who will turn down available sex from someone new to use as a band aid for their retarded emotions and coping skills.

Most women know this...do some take advantage of it? You bet.

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Catnip, i've read you long enough to know that you like things straight up no chaser. So i'll give it to you how I see it. I don't mean to offend or raise blood pressure I'm just going to give you my experience and opinion.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong>
=^^= Are you saying that those of us who stay with our husbands and remain in our marriages do not demand to be treated honorably?
Should I/we all be offended here? </strong>

No. Not at all. I'm saying that the BS in my case didn't (in my opinion) demand to be treated honorably.

<strong>KS-So while I take responsibility for my part in what I chose, i'm not the one to go kiss up to the wife.

=^^= Back to honorablility...do you equate being honorable, just, dignified and smacking of integrity and morality to be something demeaning if you "kiss up" to someone you have wronged? I'm just talking common decency here....</strong>

You wanna know the truth - I really don't give a flip about his W. I understand that that's super duper polically incorrect around here, but it's the balls out truth. I keep hearing "she's hurt, she's sad, her life is ruined." The part that I never say on here, but it's the truth. So! I honestly don't care. What's ironic is that I really really feel for some of the BS's here. I can honestly say though - in my particular case- I just don't care. I won't go out of my way to help or harm this woman.

Let's be real, if I was caring that much about her I probably would not have been sleeping with her H in her bed.

Maybe it's wrong that I don't care about her. Maybe I should have some great feelings towards her since she's another human being. I'll let you know when I get to that point.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's why it's always so interesting for me to hear/see/read about BS's bothering to feel so much emotion about the OP. Certainly EVERY situation is different. And I could not begin to speak to all of them. I can only tell you about my case. I could care less about this woman one way or the other. IF she were to bother to hate me (which I don't think she does) it would be a giant waste of time on her part. Because I could not honestly care less.

Hope this is enlightening and not stress inducing.

Peace
KS

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Wish I knew it Catnip. When two people come together with voids of this magnitude, it's a recipe for disaster. Feeding off eachother like two vultures at a picnic.

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catnip, if men were so lame brain and stupid, they wouldnt be running to days world now would they, come oe, Your telling me your husband is so stupid, that this woman is so much more than him that she was able to make him sleep with her, and produce a child, please, I bet there are alot of men out there who would beg to differ.

My x om is a businessman and capable of dealing with millions of dollars every day, He also is capable of making things happen just the way he wants them and I have watched him maipulate things his way in business and personal life for many years... I learned many things from him.. over the years, I also learned how to tell when he was lying and not lying,

My husband was capable and certainly smart enough to know he was using women and lying to get them, He also knew he was hurting me by doing it.
do you treat your husband as if he is a child and has no common sense what so ever ?

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>Catnip, i've read you long enough to know that you like things straight up no chaser.

You wanna know the truth - I really don't give a flip about his W. I understand that that's super duper polically incorrect around here, but it's the balls out truth. I keep hearing "she's hurt, she's sad, her life is ruined." The part that I never say on here, but it's the truth. So! I honestly don't care. What's ironic is that I really really feel for some of the BS's here. I can honestly say though - in my particular case- I just don't care. I won't go out of my way to help or harm this woman.

Let's be real, if I was caring that much about her I probably would not have been sleeping with her H in her bed.

Maybe it's wrong that I don't care about her. Maybe I should have some great feelings towards her since she's another human being. I'll let you know when I get to that point.
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Whoa..I can respect that even if it seems heartless, I totally appreciate your honesty. I like that a lot. Even if you are a heartless bytch of the highest order like me, I sure do appreciate balls out honesty with no fluff instead of all this mewling justification. From one Katie to another, hats off.

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LOL!

I have to say that I have nothing but respect for you and what you've gone through with Bipolar bear. I can even respect you thinking that i'm a *****. That's probably fair.

I'm not going to sit here and make all kinds of justificaitons for what happened between MM and me. Looking back-it just was.

I've given up judgement of myself about it and so the judgement of others is meaningless to me.

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Sheez, I'm envious. When I got honest round here, you all tore off your gloves and started threads on my behalf, flowerseed came out of lurker mode, or multipersonality FS surfaced, not sure, but all in all, over the edge went everyone when I got honest about my -ex's wife.

I'm glad to see we are making progress here.

Thanks KS for your @alls.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>catnip, if men were so lame brain and stupid, they wouldnt be running to days world now would they, come oe, Your telling me your husband is so stupid, that this woman is so much more than him that she was able to make him sleep with her, and produce a child, please, I bet there are alot of men out there who would beg to differ.

My x om is a businessman and capable of dealing with millions of dollars every day, He also is capable of making things happen just the way he wants them and I have watched him maipulate things his way in business and personal life for many years... I learned many things from him.. over the years, I also learned how to tell when he was lying and not lying,

My husband was capable and certainly smart enough to know he was using women and lying to get them, He also knew he was hurting me by doing it.
do you treat your husband as if he is a child and has no common sense what so ever ?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As usual you miss the point entirely. I didn't say they were lame brained and stupid so don't put words in my mouth to win an argument. Play fair if you play with me and quote me right....no manipulation, please.

Men are programmed to run the world and do the big business, make cart loads of decisions but when it comes to peronsal and emotional coping skills, they lack. I don't think men are stupid, I just think they lack where we excel, and perhaps vice-versa.

I don't have my husband's talent for problem solving when it comes to business but he doesn't know what to do with his emotions when he is frightened because it is hard for him to share his negative feelings about himself because he is programmed to stuff these feelings for fear of being considered less of a man. It's universal, MOF..not just in my house or yours or Sally's down the block. It is prevalent everywhere.

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I love it whenever Katie S. says "Let's get real..." cuz she does tell the truth from her perspective unvarnished and completely exposed.

I trust KS .... for that reason. (And yet, we are so un-alike in general, it's not even funny)

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Take heart - it was ugly as hell when I first arrived. I had 4-5 threads started in my honor. Many tried to "show me the light." LOL!

Folks who hang around here for a while usually go through some sort of evolution one way or another. I know that I have.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>Sheez, I'm envious. When I got honest round here, you all tore off your gloves and started threads on my behalf, flowerseed came out of lurker mode, or multipersonality FS surfaced, not sure, but all in all, over the edge went everyone when I got honest about my -ex's wife.

I'm glad to see we are making progress here.

Thanks KS for your @alls.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Her delivery was a lot less combative than yours used to be so don't feel bad. She was just honest and non-offensive at the same time.

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You know what guys. At I have tremendous respect for SO MANY people here.

I happen to think that we don't always have to agree to learn from one another.

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no most men dont wear their heart on there sleve, but they are capable of understanding how life works...

sorry didnt mean to sound like I wasnt playing fair, I just dont think you give men enough credit for their decisions.
I hate to leave this conversation and I am glad to see we are all playing nice for the most part, nice to be able to talk with out getting angry...

I am sure we would all agree with that... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

gotta go have a great day EVERY ONE

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You know, it occured to me. Maybe these men did use condoms. They put them on their heads as they should, only the wrong head all together. When they did so, their oxygen got cut off and rendered them even more emotionally handicap than they were before the affair. They end up with their wives staying by their side, many of whom deserve better than a cakeman for a husband, for those who know the truth, or they continue on living a lie of a life, as they did before, emotionally handicap yet leading the world.

I hope that women get into power soon or whose telling what will happen with the violense raging in the middle east. Men have their finger on the switch... Good grief, we're in trouble.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
[QB]LOL!

I have to say that I have nothing but respect for you and what you've gone through with Bipolar bear. I can even respect you thinking that i'm a *****.

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please understand I do not think ***** is a negative term at all. I usually equate it with someone who has risen from the ashes, developed an attitude of self respect, maintains integrity at all costs and has the ability to admit when they are wrong and not afraid to say so. ***** is a tribute to those of us who refuse to allow ourselves to be dragged through the muck. I know I am a ***** but I am also a tender and loving one when appropriate.

Not a slam, KS...not a slam.

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LOL @ CM .... head condoms

What a visual LOLOLOLOLOLOL <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

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Catnip-

We share a defination on that one. No offense taken.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>You know, it occured to me. Maybe these men did use condoms. They put them on their heads as they should, only the wrong head all together. When they did so, their oxygen got cut off and rendered them even more emotionally handicap than they were before the affair.

=^^= Hahahaha....hahaha...so true. Hilarious picture in my head.

They end up with their wives staying by their side, many of whom deserve better than a cakeman for a husband, for those who know the truth, or they continue on living a lie of a life, as they did before, emotionally handicap yet leading the world.

=^^= Yeah. I wouldn't be here if my husband was a cakeman. Lucky for him his short fling and the results thereof was more like "aversion therapy" like having his hmmm hmmm's attached to electrical current. Since D-day, when we are out in a restaurant or shopping, he is looking at me again instead of everything else out there.

I hope that women get into power soon or whose telling what will happen with the violense raging in the middle east. Men have their finger on the switch... Good grief, we're in trouble.

=^^= Ain't that the truth? Let's hope this is where they excel since it is so difficult for them on the homefront with wives esepcially.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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<<<You are giving us women far too much power I feel.
Men who run and hide may feel that women hold all the cards perhaps.?>>>

We always come back to this same arguement don't we ?

MOF, since according to you women don't hold all the cards what would you have done if MM asked you to abort because he did not want to be a father at this time ? I'll tell you what you would have done... You would still have had the baby and made him pay cs for the next 18 years for a child he didn't want.
OK, lets turn it around...
Say you are pregnant and don't wish to be a mother right now so you choose your legal right for abortion. MM says wait, I'll take and raise the baby without you, but you choose to have an abortion anyway. Just what can he do about that ? NOTHING. His child is gone because the WOMAN chose not to have the baby. Again, he has no say in the outcome of a pregnancy that everyone says he is %50 responsible for.
Sorry MOF, but we chicks hold all the power. We whine and cry about equal rights but when it comes right down to it we, as a gender, are incapable of being equal to men because we are incapable of taking SOLE responsiblity for our decisions.
And that tired old arguement of he made his choice by acknowleging he has no choice is really getting worn out.
jtigger

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 11:45 AM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

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Is anyone else's house as dirty as mine is? Is anyone else contemplating having a team of surgeons come in and have you surgically removed from your computer? Is anyone else late for work because they just can't seem to get away from here? Is coming to your computer and logging onto this site the first thing you do when you get up in the morning?

It's almost noon and I still haven't had my shower and I am supposed in the office in 45 minutes. Bye

Catnip =^^=

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong><<<You are giving us women far too much power I feel.
Men who run and hide may feel that women hold all the cards perhaps.?>>>

We always come back to this same arguement don't we ?

MOF, since according to you women don't hold all the cards what would you have done if MM asked you to abort because he did not want to be a father at this time ? I'll tell you what you would have done... You would still have had the baby and made him pay cs for the next 18 years for a child he didn't want.
OK, lets turn it around...
Say you are pregnant and don't wish to be a mother right now so you choose your legal right for abortion. MM says wait, I'll take and raise the baby without you, but you choose to have an abortion anyway. Just what can he do about that ? NOTHING. His child is gone because the WOMAN chose not to have the baby. Again, he has no say in the outcome of a pregnancy that everyone says he is %50 responsible for.
Sorry MOF, but we chicks hold all the power. We whine and cry about equal rights but when it comes right down to it we, as a gender, are incapable of being equal to men because we are incapable of taking SOLE responsiblity for our decisions.
And that tired old arguement of he made his choice by acknowleging he has no choice is really getting worn out.
jtigger</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh yeah, Jtigger...the voice of reason and common sense...thank you, thank you.....

Love

Catnip =^^=

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Condoms ... is what I discovered on D-day! Condoms were my H's un-doing.

(NOT on H's head <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> ... thanks CM for that never-to-be-forgotten visual)

I found a small un-opened jar of vasoline and an unopened box of condoms in H's drawer. We are an infertile couple. He could not explain the reason he was in possession of condoms. So... discovery began ....

Leap ahead to a few days later ... I ask H, "Why were the condoms un-opened?" He says , "We decided not to use them." ... I ask "Weren't you at least a little bit worried about getting her pregnant?" ... H says, "Why no. She's had a hysterectomy."

About an hour later, it dawns on me .... then just what in the sam hill did you buy the condoms for anyway?????

H gives me a dumb sheepish look and refused to answer.

Then I say ... "It was for non-vaginal sex, wasn't it!!!"

Same dumb sheepish look.

I punched him in the face(a lousy sloppy soft punch, just grazed his chin).... and I took off for the weekend.

Not my most stellar moment of glory .... but today.... I'm giggling about it.

SEE GIRLS .... time is magical .... this is actually FUNNY to me now.

Pepper

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MOF,
I think I better explain myself to you so you will know that I truly am not attacking you.
I don't get involved with the "its her fault , its his fault" arguments. At this point its moot whose fault it is.
I get involved when people start throwing around words like coward and irresponsible.
I spent way too many hours freezing my a$$ off protesting for womens rights to have them treated so dismissively.
I don't want to be hired for a job just because I'm a woman (and they need to fill their minority quota) if I am not the most qualified person for that job.
And if I do the same job as a man I want to be paid the same as that man.
And if I have reproductive choices then I want men to have those same choices. I don't want any special treatment just because I am a woman.
I am one of those strange feminist that when I say I want to be treated equally to a man I really mean equal.
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong>I have to say though, why on earth would a woman choose to bear a child to ANY man she's not married to? Let alone the father is married? What possible outcome do women think can happen?</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You could also ask &#8220;Why would a woman choose to bear a child conceived of rape?&#8221; I think women are very adaptable and resilient overall&#8230;.some more than others. I consider a woman a true survivor. She has a strong mind and a strong heart. She is resourceful and tenacious. Her love is blind and her will is made of iron. In other words, a woman is very well equipped to do what she has to do to make it through life.

When I discovered I was pregnant, my thoughts were swirling around in my head so quickly that they made me dizzy. Everything in my life shifted and the new life within me became my all-consuming focus. My child is MY child, regardless of how he came to be. Just like BS&#8217;s don&#8217;t necessarily hate the OC, but abhor the act that led to the child&#8217;s existence, so it is for me in regard to my child. I&#8217;m not proud of the affair, but I am very proud of my son. I do NOT hold my head up high, as if I&#8217;ve done this great thing. I&#8217;m not special in that regard. I&#8217;m just another mother loving her child and doing what I need to do to provide a good life for him. I do not want, nor do I expect kudos or a pat on the back for overcoming my &#8220;special&#8221; circumstances. Those &#8220;special&#8221; circumstances were of my own doing. You can&#8217;t start a fire and then expect applause for being the one to put it out. How backwards is that?

We all have our trials and tribulations. How we handle ourselves and treat those around us&#8230;that&#8217;s what defines us. Saying &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry&#8221; is one of the hardest things to say, yet it is also one of the most important. A lot of people don&#8217;t realize the weight their words carry. Words can cause tremendous hurt, but they can also console and heal. Part of being a person of integrity and honor is owning your mistakes and facing the consequences head on...which includes making apologies for bad behavior. Admitting fault isn't enough, however. We all need a little humility to ground us. To truly recover from wrongdoing, one must immediately set about making amends&#8230;even if it&#8217;s just saying &#8220;I&#8217;m sorry&#8221;.

(Not singling you out Gem. You know I love ya. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Your words just got my cerebral juices flowing.)

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CM wrote and I laughingly quote:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You know, it occured to me. Maybe these men did use condoms. They put them on their heads as they should, only the wrong head all together. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

after I cleaned up the Dr. Pepper and sphghetti off of my monitor, I had to chime in with my thoughts on this one....

I don't THINK they make a condom big enough for my H's head....and I ain't talking about the little one, either.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" />

Thanks for the laugh of the day....
Oh yeah, and KS....appreciate your honesty too...

Hugs and peace y'all....
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Originally posted by gemini1:
I have to say though, why on earth would a woman choose to bear a child to ANY man she's not married to? Let alone the father is married? What possible outcome do women think can happen?

The answer to that seems obvious to me but for those who do not understand, let me put it as basic as I can. Love for child. Does your God condone abortion Gemini? Oh, I know he doesn't condone affairs either. What is that old saying about 2 wrongs don't make a right....
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by me:
<strong>Well I say good for everyone who can be a proud single woman knocked up out of wedlock and raising a kid without a dad. Hold your head up high! Where I come from, it's a shame. Where I come from adultery is a shameful act. I'm not saying go around living life like you are less than or unworthy of forgiveness from God, yourself, and others--if possible, I'm just submitting that "OW pain" would probably fall somewhere in that category. Of course, it doesn't apply to every situation. Did that strike a nerve??? Didn't mean to...</strong>

Originally posted by mom of 5:
<strong> I am guessing you wouldnt have said it if you didnt want to strike a nerve. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Matthew asked in the original topic of this thread if any OP have apologized to the BS and if not, is it because the OPs are so (self-aborbed) into their own pain... something along these lines.

My answer was that I believed YES because single parenting OW/OC situation IS very shameful depending on individual circumstances. Obviously I wasn't gearing my answer toward your nerves, mo5, because when have you ever been a single parent raising your OC alone? I don't think you have? That's a whole different world.

I also think JoshMom misunderstood me because I was not saying single parenting is shameful, period... Some people get divorced and have to raise kids alone, some people choose to be single parents, and some people adopt in order to raise their kids single. I'm talking about a single mom of an OC. Maybe she didn't misunderstand me, but I was not trying to strike any nerves, so don't accuse me of that, mo5. You said it wasn't anything personal, but you come across a bit accusatory. I could be wrong, but perhaps you might have been reading negativity in my answer through your own filters.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of 5:
<strong>
I dont believe it is any more shameful, than for a husband to produce a child while he is married to someone else. And then to deny that child...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Okay you have a point, but it's not the topic of this thread. I think you are dragging in a new topic... How can anyone have a sense of shame if they feel they have done nothing wrong? You have to be convicted of sin first in order to even consider repentance. I can reach even a little farther and say that if the person doesn't believe in God, feels that they have not violated God's Law, where is a need to repent going to come from? It's not! Not unless that person has a change of heart.

Katie Scarlett I have said this time and again but until you become a wife and not so anti-marriage, you simply won't get it in you to have compassion, even a little bit, for the BS in your situation. I understand you must believe that your xMM's wife was stupid for putting up with his crap, but maybe, just maybe she loves him? Maybe, just maybe, like you--she feels sorry for him because he's so pathetic... maybe??? Maybe he is not in his right mind and hasn't been in so many years because he is not the man she married and she's holding out for her true husband to return to her... You never know?

Back to mo5 I usually don't go posting around here to strike any nerves. I try to answer from my heart--without sarcasm--especially here on this forum in particular. We don't need sarcasm here. Sarcasm on this forum = not good. Remember the open wounds. Be sensitive. That's my motto.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 01:30 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

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jtigger
I can respect your veiws and I am all for equal rights... in fact om did not want the child, told me to abort and he would take me... I said if you dont want this baby you are free to go, I did not call I did not ask for money and in fact refused all contact.. I decided to take the baby and raise him/her my self.
He had a choice I gave him the choice to walk away. when he decided he wanted to know the child he saw her every week, But I asked for nothing, not one penny, I paid for everything for that baby.
when he decided he wanted to come out in the open he decided he wanted to pay child support, he also got to choose the amount, i SAID IT IS YOUR CHOICE DO WHAT you want...

so he had lots of choices in that reguard, I [personal opinion] would not want a man in my life or my childs life in any way shape or form if he did not want to be.

You are right if I wanted to abort , he would have no say so, by todays standards... because it is in the womans body, I am not sure how you would equal that out... dont have an answer and neither does society or we would have fixed that by now... so while he had no choice if I gave birth, he had a chance to walk away and stay gone, I was more than willing to let him...

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binthere

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> mo5, because when have you ever been a single parent raising your OC alone? I don't think you have? That's a whole different world.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">actually I did this for two years to be exact, Wasnt easy thats for sure, but I did well enough on my own and did what I needed to do.

I have a lot of respect for those who manage to do it, Takes alot to raise a child with out any help from a partner.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 02:06 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

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MOF,
Then please explain to me why you consider a man a coward ,less than human and irresponsible if he decides to walk away from an unwanted pregnancy.

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Jtigger ]</small>

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I would not be able to have a child from a rape. I just couldn't do it.

Nor would I bear a mans child if we were not married.
Just couldn't do that either.

I guess I live in a fairy tale world to think that way.

I didn't mean to get those juices flowing with my comments.... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

I also never would say something to hurt you personally. If I did then I'm sorry.
Dear OB1, you wrote a lot of answers to my questions two years ago. I will always appreciate anything you have to say. You do say it so well you know?

CM, being Catholic doesn't allow abortion, and I'm Catholic.

Having said that....I still wouldn't have a child in either of the aforementioned circumstances.

Just like you say you have to live with your decisions, I would have to live with mine.

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BTDT-
for the record I am in a loving and committed relationship. We are buying a house together and planning a family. So i'm a lot closer then you might think to being "marriage minded."

Maybe I will change my mind. Who knows. I'm not saying my opinion is perfect. It's simply my opinion. In a certain respect I identify with his W. For a LONG time I held out hope that the MM that I met and fell in love with would return.

The point at which I cry uncle and give up is different than the point at which she gives up. God bless her. Maybe she's a better woman than me. I'll give her that.

She's not done with that relationship. I am.

God bless her.

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Oh, and I was highly offended at the comment about single parenthood being shamful.

If it was shameful for you i'm sorry for that. But TRUST it's not shameful for everyone. Some of us chose it.

And I think it's offensive to assume that other single mothers are like you in that respect.

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Deb,

There&#8217;s nothing wrong with the way you think. As an individual, you are entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs, and I totally respect that. What I was trying to express is that I am often in awe at what someone is capable of, especially when it comes to their child. Mothers would willingly go through trial by fire for their little ones. It&#8217;s hard to say what you can truly endure until you are put to the test. Look at all you&#8217;ve lived through, Gem! You didn&#8217;t lay down and die when you found about the affair. You didn&#8217;t disintegrate when you found out about OC. You survived your son&#8217;s breakdown. You triumphed over OW&#8217;s attacks on you and your family. You&#8217;ve made it through more pain and heartache than any one person deserves. I bet you never realized you were this strong until you were faced with so much adversity. You were stripped down to just Gem, at her rawest, most vulnerable form, and you prevailed.

As for getting my juices flowing&#8230;I did not mean that in a derogatory way. You just made me think about all the different directions in which this thread was jumping. What you said, I do not take personally. I recognize that it was stated as it applies to YOU and your boundaries/beliefs. It did not hurt or offend me in any way. No worries with me, Gem. I&#8217;ve got a thick skin. Please do not apologize to me for voicing your thoughts.

Take care,
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Dear Ohbratti1
~sniff~ ~sniff~ Ob1 ~sniff~ Thankyou.

My Mom,just recently in a conversation, told me how proud she was of me for the strength I showed through out all that has happened in my life. That she was so proud of how I handled things...~sniff~ ~sniff~ Something about thoses words....I couldn't answer her because I was sobbing...so be glad this is a computer and I can type the words...because I am sobbing again...

Ob1, let me return the compliment in saying you too are a strong woman. You did what I said I could never do..and you did it with grace....So never think I ever would condem you for being you!

Jonas will be proud of the woman who is his Mom.
Guaranteed. With your sense of being able to capture what I feel! And put it into words!

And being from what some may call the enemy camp!
Thankyou. ~sniff~
love
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I think it took me 30 minutes to read this whole topic. What a hot topic.

fact is, what has happened to all of us is shameful. Nothing to be proud of. I myself, had I been the OW, could not have decided to keep the child and brought the child into my current family. And why not?Because it is wrong, shameful, and hurtful to them. and my BS. THat is why. I also come from a generation that having children out of wedlock was not o.k. I certainly am not conservative, but I still feel that way. Would not want my children to go about having children that way at all. Let's face it-- how many of you would prefer that over a committed marital relationship for your children?

The fact is, a single woman having a child out of wedlock with a MM, accident or planned, is not necessarily thinking of whether that is good for child or not. My H tried to tell OW how hard it would be to raise child by herself. Pleaded with her to adopt child out. This OW does not have an education, makes very little money in her job, cannot afford her own place, and is not economically solvent. It didn't matter to her. Because she wanted a child, didn't have any, she had the child, and kept the child. Then cries wolf when she realizes years down the road it is exhausting to raise a child by oneself with little resources around her.

NOw, I think that is selfish. I know when I was young, and with H, and married, I was not ready to have children for many years. I took the responsibility to stop pregnancy by using a chosen method of birth control-- why? Because I would have had to face having an unwanted child or consider abortion if I wasn't ready. I would have had to face the implications of this much more so than my H. It is just a fact.

In these awful cases, when the OP is the male, he plain doesn't have the same choice. In my H's instance, he says the OW didn't want to use a condom-- didn't like it, and because she had never been pregnant before, she naively believed she couldn't get pregnant.Stupid on both their parts. I must admit, there are many times when I wonder if she picked him out to steal his sperm.

I think she did do me wrong. ANd Mom of five, you were admirable in apologizing to WS's wife. But you sound as if you apologized because she was going to have contact with your child, not because you really thought it was indicated.

I have said this to my OW and I say it to you all-- To my worst enemy, and trust me, the OW is right up on the top of the list, I wouldn't and would never do what she did with my H. NOr could I have gone forward with pregnancy and seek CS for the child from a man married already. It would sicken me, humiliate me, and cause me great stress. I would have been so ashamed for my behavior, I couldn't bear to hurt the innocent family more.

Why can't some OW see that? I don't get it. Where is the compassion for other human beings?

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UW,
My only thought is that you are very focused on "me". That is why you do not understand or empathize, that is not meant as a shot at you, its just what I hear in nearly all of your responses since day one. Blame them (h and ow) and poor me. Not to single you out by any means.
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Unhappy wife wrote,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> ...NOr could I have gone forward with pregnancy and seek CS for the child from a man married already. It would sicken me, humiliate me, and cause me great stress. I would have been so ashamed for my behavior, I couldn't bear to hurt the innocent family more. Why can't some OW see that? I don't get it. Where is the compassion for other human beings? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my view, the only truly innocent one is the child. That is why I chose to have my child - he did nothing wrong. Why should his life be snuffed out because he wasn't planned? I think I would feel more ashamed at myself for not having my child and taking the easy way out than to have him, albeit an unconventional circumstance, yet strive to give him the best life possible in spite of it.

And I guess I don't see how asking for child support is not showing compassion, especially if it is done within reason. If my H were the one who had the affair, I would insist on us at least paying child support and come forward to do so on our own. In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

But for the record, I have given up my right to child support because my H and I are trying to get past this and have a normal life. I asked H about this at dinner tonight and he said he wouldn't even take OM's money if it were given to him. He doesn't want anything at all to do with OM. I, on the otherhand, want OM to pay SOMEHOW for what he did. Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through. As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us. Not that I even want him in my life, but I think some act of remorse is necessary.

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT.

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I think it took me 30 minutes to read this whole topic. What a hot topic.

fact is, what has happened to all of us is shameful. Nothing to be proud of. I myself, had I been the OW, could not have decided to keep the child and brought the child into my current family. And why not?Because it is wrong, shameful, and hurtful to them. and my BS. I come from a family where it is not ok to have a child out of wedlock, But it does sometimes happen and my family, although they may not like my choices they love me and respect what decision I have made and would have been absolutely furious had I aborted or given my child away..

I am a mother unhappy wife just as you are and I cant imagine the only reson in this world that you love your children is because your husband fathered them. You expect less of someone who had a child out of wedlock. We still love our children . my children love thier sister.. why wouldnt they, she is their sister.

THat is why. I also come from a generation that having children out of wedlock was not o.k. I certainly am not conservative, but I still feel that way. Would not want my children to go about having children that way at all. Let's face it-- how many of you would prefer that over a committed marital relationship for your children?

Of course I would not wish this for my child as parents we alwasy want things to be perfect for our children, but would not stop loving them if it did not turn out the way I wanted.

The fact is, a single woman having a child out of wedlock with a MM, accident or planned, is not necessarily thinking of whether that is good for child or not. My H tried to tell OW how hard it would be to raise child by herself. Pleaded with her to adopt child out. This OW does not have an education, makes very little money in her job, cannot afford her own place, and is not economically solvent. It didn't matter to her. Because she wanted a child, didn't have any, she had the child, and kept the child. Then cries wolf when she realizes years down the road it is exhausting to raise a child by oneself with little resources around her.

Unfortunately young people have babies all the time and it is very sad and devistating, if your husband was so wise to advise her what a shame he did not make better choices for her before.

NOw, I think that is selfish. I know when I was young, and with H, and married, I was not ready to have children for many years. I took the responsibility to stop pregnancy by using a chosen method of birth control-- why? Because I would have had to face having an unwanted child or consider abortion if I wasn't ready. I would have had to face the implications of this much more so than my H. It is just a fact.

In these awful cases, when the OP is the male, he plain doesn't have the same choice. In my H's instance, he says the OW didn't want to use a condom-- didn't like it, and because she had never been pregnant before, she naively believed she couldn't get pregnant.Stupid on both their parts. I must admit, there are many times when I wonder if she picked him out to steal his sperm.

I cant imagine a woman just picking out a man for his sperm, lol but I would guess it could happen

I think she did do me wrong. ANd Mom of five, you were admirable in apologizing to WS's wife. But you sound as if you apologized because she was going to have contact with your child, not because you really thought it was indicated.

I apologised because she and I had to come to some form of communication , I was sorry for all of us, not because of the baby, but because of all the hurt and anger that had gone on for a few months.. I am concerned about any one who is going to be around my child.. sorry cant help it, its a mom thing...

I have said this to my OW and I say it to you all-- To my worst enemy, and trust me, the OW is right up on the top of the list, I wouldn't and would never do what she did with my H. NOr could I have gone forward with pregnancy and seek CS for the child from a man married already. It would sicken me, humiliate me, and cause me great stress. I would have been so ashamed for my behavior, I couldn't bear to hurt the innocent family more.

Why can't some OW see that? I don't get it. Where is the compassion for other human beings?

I can see that you think you would never do any of these things, I can also say you dont know what you would do , unless you are put in this situation. I dont feel sick or humiliated. I take good care of my children, they have a family who love them, and are well taken care of... I am not hurting an innocent family at all, and your husband is not innocent, he is the one who hurt you the most, so that argument should be with him.

Unhappy wife,

I am not saying what the other woman did was right, but you cant tell those of us who kept our child that we should be humiliated and ashamed.. I am not proud of the affair, it wasnt a conquest, just two people who learned to depend on each other when we should not have, But I am proud of my daughter.. why wouldnt I be!? I gave birth to her, I feel no different than you do about the children you gave birth to. this is what you dont get.. you think the mother should not love this child and not have it... because it would suit the other man.

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:

And I guess I don't see how asking for child support is not showing compassion, especially if it is done within reason. If my H were the one who had the affair, I would insist on us at least paying child support and come forward to do so on our own. In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

I couldn't agree more NP.

...I on the otherhand, want OM to pay SOMEHOW for what he did. Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through. As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

I echo your feelings 100% at this time in my recovery. He asked me what he could do to make things better? My honest reply at the time was to see some blood and tears on HIS part along with an apology. I got the apology. I can't say it meant a whole lot, seeing how I had to ask for it. Sadly, I see the the realliance with his wife as a man who is afraid of being left by both of us. It goes back to my thought that we are looking for someone else to complete us.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us. Not that I even want him in my life, but I think some act of remorse is necessary.

Amazing, isn't it? Yes, we chose to stay with our husbands and that was interpreted as go back to life as it was and forget about their role in all this.

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT

I am not the least bit surprised. My ex never uttered a word about bc, ever once, in 6.5 years. When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make. I can never know what crazy thoughts were raging through his mind back then. And neither can you. As messed up as the bs think we are, the ow/ws, so too are their husbands. Then they find out about A, and they too become an emotional catastrophy. Thanks ex-mm. For nothing.

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momoffive said: I am not saying what the other woman did was right, but you cant tell those of us who kept our child that we should be humiliated and ashamed.. I am not proud of the affair, it wasnt a conquest, just two people who learned to depend on each other when we should not have, But I am proud of my daughter.. why wouldnt I be!? I gave birth to her, I feel no different than you do about the children you gave birth to. this is what you dont get.. you think the mother should not love this child and not have it... because it would suit the other man.

Perfectly said.

CM

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 09:03 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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I must say something to you MO5,

The main reason I love my son is because my husband fathered him.

We waited 6 years into our marriage before he was born.

It was a loving choice we made togetherand we anticipated his birth by reading all the books on child rearing together, chose his nursery together, told all of our happy families together. The main word here is together. He was there at the hospital for our son's birth and handed out "it's a boy" cigars (ok smoking them was a non-political issue back then <img border="0" title="" alt="[Razz]" src="images/icons/tongue.gif" /> ).

H entered all the information in our boy's baby book. Including where mommy and daddy met. And when mommy and daddy were married....and what daddy said when he found out mommy was expecting.

We did it the right way.

I wonder what ow wrote in her baby book? What did you write?

As I said before...I would never consider having a child with a man I wasn't married to. I guess I forgot to say I wouldn't "do the do" until then either. But thats me.

If by some unforeseen reason I'd have had the child, and not been married, by all means I'd love it. We aren't arguing if you love your D or not.

See when you chose to have the baby in such horrible circumstances, it stands to reason some difficulties will follow.

We have a cousin who did that w/a single man, left her H and is living w/single man raising their D. She left her H of 23 years and 21 yr old D and 18 yr. old son. Her mom and dad cut her out of their lives at first for causing so much grief.

They all get along somewhat now, but each Christmas when we see them, everyone still says.."how sad a situation it is"

LOL I'm sure now they say it about H and me and our S!!!!!
Just can't escape the Jerry Springer thing no matter what, I guess....

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Gemini,

I do not say this to make you feel bad.
You say you love your son because your H is his father. You say you and he did it the 'right way'. Yet, your marriage wasn't going along the 'right way' or else he would not have turned away from it. Yet you do not love your son any less having been deeply hurt by his father.
I am not so sure you really belive what you are saying here. I sense you are saying what you need to say to support your argument about how us ow should not have had our children because they happen to be children of someone elses H. You will say what you need to say to support that feeling, which is more than likely bred out of the pain of the affair. That is how I think about it as I can not commit to my logical thinking self, that a mother, who has carried a child and given birth, who has loved her infant child and known an unconditional love like no other, can actually believe what you say you do.
I wonder how you would feel about your son if your H were to have left you or if you fell out of love with him, and left him? See, the child is a seperate person. You are essentially saying you love your child conditionally. What if you found out tomorrow that the hospital made a grave error and your son was switched at birth. Then what? You toss him aside like yesterdays newspaper.....in search of the child conceived the 'right way'?
Love is love and you can try and disquise it or twist it into something grander than simply love, yet it remains universal. What I had with my -ex was love. Wrong lifetime, but love nonetheless.

CM

<small>[ November 20, 2002, 09:29 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
[QB]Oh, and I was highly offended at the comment about single parenthood being shamful.
QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">No fair. You cannot be highly offended by a comment that was not directed at you personally or we Betrayeds will all have to get all offended at your remarks that you don't care one fig that your Betrayed was injured or that you don't owe her an apology, making her seem like a non-entity. No one became grossly offended at your remark...instead you were praised for being honest...

Catnip =^^=

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>UW,
My only thought is that you are very focused on "me". That is why you do not understand or empathize, that is not meant as a shot at you, its just what I hear in nearly all of your responses since day one.

=^^= If you give no empathy, why do you expect it from UW?

Blame them (h and ow) and poor me.

=^^= Who else is on the blame list besides H and OW?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
<strong>In my view, the only truly innocent one is the child.

=^^= And the Betrayed Spouse

That is why I chose to have my child - he did nothing wrong. Why should his life be snuffed out because he wasn't planned?

=^^= I don't believe anyone suggested your child's life should be "snuffed out"

In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

=^^= So, you want it BOTH ways...empty the pockets but get to call the shots and discourage visitation/joint custody...

But for the record, I have given up my right to child support because my H and I are trying to get past this and have a normal life.

=^^= THAT'S smart. Especially for the child and for your marriage.

Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through.

=^^= what about what YOU put HIM through, and his wife, and his fmaily by consenting to adulterous sex with someone else's husband? Maybe he does feel deep remorse, but you will never know and that will be the price you will have to pay for doing what you did. You are in control of your body and no one forced you to have sex. If you would have said NO there would have been no sex, no conception, no child.

As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

=^^- And that is fair, as long as you apologize to him as well for your part in this.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us.

=^^= What did you want and expect him to do if you ended it....drop to his knees and beg?

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT.

-^^= How delusional can people get here on this site?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
[Q
Sadly, I see the the realliance with his wife as a man who is afraid of being left by both of us. It goes back to my thought that we are looking for someone else to complete us.

=^^= Does making the wife nothing more than a non-entity in your mind and something to be "used" by husband as a safety net when his A is over make OW's feel better to think the only reason he goes back to the wife is out of need and convenience? This is what you OW's really want to believe, isn't it? That the wife, you know, the Old Ball and Chain, is a cross for him to bear while he pines away for the OW he secretly wanted to knock up because he left an unopened condom in a drawer. God, you women are dreamers and completely delusional while you rewrite history to pretend your affairs were so much more than a fling or sordid affair.

My ex never uttered a word about bc, ever once, in 6.5 years.

=^^= He probably thought that in this enlightened age of a multitude of BC devices that are handed out to teenagers in high schools, a woman of your ripe old years would be able to figure out how to prevent pregnancy. He probably never gave it much thought.

When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make.

=^^= And, what did you say????

Thanks ex-mm. For nothing.

=^^= for nothing? What about your beautiful child? You certainly got something wondeful there.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>momoffive said: [b]I am not saying what the other woman did was right, but you cant tell those of us who kept our child that we should be humiliated and ashamed.. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">She didn't say YOU should be humilated and ashamed...she said she would be if it happened to her.

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CMIranda, Your post to me is so interesting and probably says a lot more about you than me at all.
I reread my post.

The post I wrote above barely mentions blame. But that is what you picked up on. It does mention decisions made by OW and my H. True decisions. Decisions that affected me. OF course it makes reference to me, I am the one doing the post.

Just exactly did you pick up on my post? I don't see any evidence of focus on me at all-but I did focus on how decisions made by OW and OM affect the people who are loved by these people.

You know what? ANyone who gets involved in an A, knowingly and willingly, did it full well it could hurt others. You can't tell me otherwise. My H thought he could avoid hurting me, but in the end, he hurt me in the worst way.So too did the OW. No excuse for either of them.

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Catnip,

Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
In my view, the only truly innocent one is the child.

=^^= And the Betrayed Spouse

No, in my case I don't believe the BS is innocent but rather should bear some responsibility for kicking her husband out of their bed and allowing him to sleep in the spare bedroom with the dog. I mean, come on, not that she deserved what happened, but what did she think was going to happen?

That is why I chose to have my child - he did nothing wrong. Why should his life be snuffed out because he wasn't planned?

=^^= I don't believe anyone suggested your child's life should be "snuffed out"

No, but I believe in the previous part of the thread we were discussing whether or not to have a child under these circumstances and that's what I was eluding to.

In my mind, its really the only decent thing the OM could do at this point, besides staying away from us.

=^^= So, you want it BOTH ways...empty the pockets but get to call the shots and discourage visitation/joint custody...

I never said anything about emptying anyone's pockets. Your H's OW may be trying to do that to you, but I that's not what I'm about. I just think he should pay something reasonable. Plus, since he's all the way on the other side of the U.S. now, I don't see how visitation or joint custody would even be possible. But if I had my drothers, yes, that's how I would like the situation to be - child support but no contact.

But for the record, I have given up my right to child support because my H and I are trying to get past this and have a normal life.

=^^= THAT'S smart. Especially for the child and for your marriage.

Maybe if I knew he felt some remorse, not only towards his wife, but towards me and what he put me through.

=^^= what about what YOU put HIM through, and his wife, and his fmaily by consenting to adulterous sex with someone else's husband?

This thread was about getting an apology - that's what I responded to. As I stated earlier, I did apologize to OM's wife and when I ended it with OM apologized to him then. Not that an apology makes everything ok, but I was extremely remorseful (and still am) for what I allowed myself to get lured into and my actions in the whole situation.

As I've said before, OM is who I'd like the apology from.

=^^- And that is fair, as long as you apologize to him as well for your part in this.

See answer above.

Oh, and CM, I too heard the line from OM, "you ended it, not me". So I guess that justifies him turning his back on us.

=^^= What did you want and expect him to do if you ended it....drop to his knees and beg?

No, but he could have asked if there was anything he could do to make the situation right or help in any way.

And get this, (venting here) when I was cleaning out the love nest that OM and I shared, in the bedroom dresser was an unopened condom. which makes me wonder if he had this whole thing planned thinking that if I were pregnant I would definitely leave H for him...NOT.

-^^= How delusional can people get here on this site?

Could do without the personal attack here. And if you knew my OM you would understand what I meant.

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catnip, I was offended at the inference that all single mothers were secretly ashamed. Maybe that's not what she meant, but that's the way I read it.

When I post i'm pretty careful to make it clear that my opinion is mine and mine alone.

Oh and for the record my child is not a product of my EMA.

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<small>[ November 21, 2002, 08:44 AM: Message edited by: twiisty ]</small>

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I'm not going to argue with you uw. I simply am saying that in nearly every post, you are blaming or judging H and ow and full of self pity.
I do not believe that BS are innocent victims. I believe that BS contribute to the breakdown of their marriages. No, they are not to be blamed for the affair. No, their not. However they are not innocent of their role. The only innocent ones are the children.

CM

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cantip- [/qb][/QUOTE]She didn't say YOU should be humilated and ashamed...she said she would be if it happened to her.[/QB][/QUOTE]

Did I say she did? No, I didn't. I say that I agree with every word she wrote. And I do.

CM

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by catnip:
[qb] [QUOTE]Originally posted by CMiranda:
[Q
Sadly, I see the the realliance with his wife as a man who is afraid of being left by both of us. It goes back to my thought that we are looking for someone else to complete us.

=^^= Does making the wife nothing more than a non-entity in your mind and something to be "used" by husband as a safety net when his A is over make OW's feel better to think the only reason he goes back to the wife is out of need and convenience? This is what you OW's really want to believe, isn't it? That the wife, you know, the Old Ball and Chain, is a cross for him to bear while he pines away for the OW he secretly wanted to knock up because he left an unopened condom in a drawer. God, you women are dreamers and completely delusional while you rewrite history to pretend your affairs were so much more than a fling or sordid affair.

--> I'm not looking to make myself feel better. I'm simply stating the facts as they are known to me by my ex. I am not saying YOU, I'm saying in my case. Funny, 7 year fling. I like that. Whose dreaming now?
I know what he told me and I believe him.
Simple.

My ex never uttered a word about bc, ever once, in 6.5 years.

=^^= He probably thought that in this enlightened age of a multitude of BC devices that are handed out to teenagers in high schools, a woman of your ripe old years would be able to figure out how to prevent pregnancy. He probably never gave it much thought.

--> Wrong again. He and I discussed pregnancy on more than one occasion and he shared his feelings of that happening. Immediately thereafter, he wanted to make love and he cried in my arms when he said that he wanted a life and kids with me. A man who rarely shared his emotions. The next day or week, whenever, I do not recall, he was back to saying how he can't put himself first and what he wants doesn't matter. The preg. discussions were not what you might think or are trying to believe here that is for sure.
For the men who assume - shame on them.

When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make.

=^^= And, what did you say????

--> Feeling was mutual.

Thanks ex-mm. For nothing.

=^^= for nothing? What about your beautiful child? You certainly got something wondeful there

--> You got it, I do have something absolutely precious, but I'm not refering to my child when I make that statment. Go back and read my post.

For someone who likes to remind us ws/ow's how much you are not referring to us and our situations, you sure seem to lose touch with that here. I'm not talking about your H, I'm talking about my ex-, as a ws as well as ow.
If I wanted to be, I'd still be with him.

CM

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 10:36 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>UW,
My only thought is that you are very focused on "me". That is why you do not understand or empathize, that is not meant as a shot at you, its just what I hear in nearly all of your responses since day one.

=^^= If you give no empathy, why do you expect it from UW?

Blame them (h and ow) and poor me.

=^^= Who else is on the blame list besides H and OW?

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">BS.

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I deleted an original response, but I'll say this and then I will retreat....

not ALL BS's are to blame...it's a nice thought to blame us too, but the original people to blame are the selfish people who decided to have the fling/affair/whatever. They obviously weren't thinking about the betrayed wives and husbands and children of the home when they were having their "fun" "emotional attachment" what have you.

I refuse to take the blame for Mr."T" and his ex-booty call. Our marriage had no problems...our marriage counselor said if it weren't for the fact that he did this deed and an oc resulted, you wouldn't have known there was a problem.

Perhaps I'm the rarity on this, but I will own blame when I'm in the wrong, but I didn't cause or contribute to my H's quickies. I know the circumstances that surround why/what/how of our situation.

I guess it all depends on your circumstances. Our MC told my H that he was selfish as was ex-ow.

It's pure selfishness on the people who cheat...and whether a BS (male or female betrayed) contributed to the break down of communication or what have you, doesn't excuse and affair.

Let's just give this a rest and move on, eh?
I guess because My H had a three night stand/black book type of affair, I don't really count anyways...it's not like he was emotionally attached to the woman anyway. I'm fortunate in that respects, I suppose...but the pain is still real and I will not accept blame on selfish people's pleasures.

I understand there are several situations that lead up to A's....I could have had one too, when my H emotionally distanced himself from me, but I chose to honor my marriage vows. I wonder if honoring them is worth the pain I'm feeling now?

Hugs and peace,
Twiisty

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>Gemini,

I do not say this to make you feel bad.
You say you love your son because your H is his father. You say you and he did it the 'right way'. Yet, your marriage wasn't going along the 'right way' or else he would not have turned away from it.

typical ow thinking...every relationship has problems CM.....Turning away instead of trying to amend problems is wrong

Yet you do not love your son any less having been deeply hurt by his father.
I am not so sure you really belive what you are saying here. I sense you are saying what you need to say to support your argument about how us ow should not have had our children because they happen to be children of someone elses H. You will say what you need to say to support that feeling, which is more than likely bred out of the pain of the affair. That is how I think about it as I can not commit to my logical thinking self, that a mother, who has carried a child and given birth, who has loved her infant child and known an unconditional love like no other, can actually believe what you say you do.
I wonder how you would feel about your son if your H were to have left you or if you fell out of love with him, and left him? See, the child is a seperate person. You are essentially saying you love your child conditionally.

I would still love him as he was a gift to each of us from our marriage,regardless if it ended.

What if you found out tomorrow that the hospital made a grave error and your son was switched at birth. Then what? You toss him aside like yesterdays newspaper.....in search of the child conceived the 'right way'?

No, CM, I wouldn't give him back to find the right child. H and I once discussed this after seeing a story on a switch at birth. We would want to see our "real" child, but would not want to interfere with the life he has known.

Love is love and you can try and disquise it or twist it into something grander than simply love, yet it remains universal. What I had with my -ex was love. Wrong lifetime, but love nonetheless.

Seven years is a very long time to step outside your marriage. I'm sorry for you. Still, you write typical ow thoughts. Things like "wrong lifetime"... CM, if it was love why did you guys break it off? Love is universal. Love conquers all. You write with such regret at what you've done to your marriage, yet defend the A with statements like "wrong lifetime"

In closing I do wish you well.

I hope you find the healing you want. Really, I do.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Debi

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I don't blame my H for my A. I blame him for not meeting my needs. I clearly defined them but he was too wrapped up in himself to do much about it. I do blame him for that end of things. I hope I claried myself, I don't think BS is to blame for decision of ws to have the A. I see the role of the BS in the process leading up to the A though. I do and for some to say that BS is innocent of the entire event is blaming and projecting all of the sadness and pain one is experiencing onto others. Yes, others have their major role, but so too does the spouse of the ws to varying degrees.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Noplacelikehome:
[QB]]No, in my case I don't believe the BS is innocent but rather should bear some responsibility for kicking her husband out of their bed and allowing him to sleep in the spare bedroom with the dog. I mean, come on, not that she deserved what happened, but what did she think was going to happen?[/b]

=^^= That's HIS version...you don't REALLY know what went on in that home or between those two people. No one knows what really goes in between a married couple but the married couple.

No, but I believe in the previous part of the thread we were discussing whether or not to have a child under these circumstances and that's what I was eluding to.

=^^= Understand that 90% of this site is Betrayeds and this is a POV that most of them probably share. Majority rules kind of thing

I never said anything about emptying anyone's pockets. But if I had my drothers, yes, that's how I would like the situation to be - child support but no contact.

=^^= Am I on acid or something?

This thread was about getting an apology - that's what I responded to.

=^^= It is about Betrayeds getting an apology FROM the OW

I allowed myself to get lured into and my actions in the whole situation.


=^^= "Lured" into a sexual relationship with a man who is married to someone else.

QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I don't blame my H for my A. I blame him for not meeting my needs. I see the role of the BS in the process leading up to the A though. I do and for some to say that BS is innocent of the entire event is blaming and projecting all of the sadness and pain one is experiencing onto others.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= So what if the entire event is blamed solely on the perps who did these vile things? So what? What do you say to woman who went above and beyond the call of duty to meet every single emotional, mental, physical, spiritual need imaginable for two decades? Then what? Then how is she or he even remotely responsible for the A?

When you have given and loved and done every thing possible to enhance your marriage and to make your spouse happy and fulfilled and they betray you, how is this betrayal your fault???

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
[QB He and I discussed pregnancy on more than one occasion and he shared his feelings of that happening. Immediately thereafter, he wanted to make love and he cried in my arms when he said that he wanted a life and kids with me. A man who rarely shared his emotions.
When I brought up preg. possibilites, he only said that he often wondered how that would change things for us and what a good looking child we'd make.

=^^= Awwww. CM, that is so tender (sniff). Memories...like the shadows of my mind....
Hey. How's that Discovery (D-Day) coming with your HUSBAND?

For someone who likes to remind us ws/ow's how much you are not referring to us and our situations, you sure seem to lose touch with that here.

=^^= Oh, please. I am so fed up with a couple of you I could go running naked through the streets. As soon as any of you hear anything that has any common sense to it or any validity that is uncomfortable for any of you, you all start lashing out with preposterous statements and then bury your heads in the sand like a bunch of ostriches. I really don't know how much longer I can stand listening to the denial, self absorption, excuses, pining away for XMM's while rarely if ever mentioning husbands or recovery!!!

I'm not talking about your H, I'm talking about my ex-, as a ws as well as ow.

=^^= I am not so self absorbed to think you were talking about me. I did not take it that you meant me at all.

If I wanted to be, I'd still be with him.

=^^= Oh. And you think you still have this option, this choice? Well, keep hanging onto that illusion if that's what gets you through the day. I would think coming here and hanging at MARRIAGE BUILDERS for months, and months and months, your focus would be on your husband and your marraige and not waltzing down memory lane reminsicing about how XMM "cried in your arms"....sheesh.

You know, CM, right about now I would like to take this outside with you and have it out once and for all. Scream it out. You really get under my skin.

Cat

CM[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I don't blame my H for my A. I blame him for not meeting my needs. I see the role of the BS in the process leading up to the A though. I do and for some to say that BS is innocent of the entire event is blaming and projecting all of the sadness and pain one is experiencing onto others.

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">=^^= So what if the entire event is blamed solely on the perps who did these vile things? So what? What do you say to woman who went above and beyond the call of duty to meet every single emotional, mental, physical, spiritual need imaginable for two decades? Then what? Then how is she or he even remotely responsible for the A?

When you have given and loved and done every thing possible to enhance your marriage and to make your spouse happy and fulfilled and they betray you, how is this betrayal your fault???</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Very good question.
I think I'd have to ask a question first to better understand the situation. That Q would be, does the WS also concur that her/his needs were all met, that the BS made you happy, fullfilled you, etc. I think this is where the breakdown may be happening. In my case, my H knows this is not the situation.
In your case, or others, it may be that the H, who is most notably emotionally handicap, probably not forthcoming in describing his needs, may not have been upfront and honest about how he is feeling and what he wants but feels he is not getting.
I also think that men expect alot from women. They seem to think it is innate for us to be loving, caring, givers and they take, take and take, by nature. When women get tired of being deleted of our resources, it is too late for talk as we more than likely have already found our need being met someplace else. OM in my case met my need for conversation for at least 6 months then I was invested emotionally, and rest is hx.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>You know, it occured to me. Maybe these men did use condoms. They put them on their heads as they should, only the wrong head all together. When they did so, their oxygen got cut off and rendered them even more emotionally handicap than they were before the affair.
CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Bwaa Haaaa Haaaaa Haaa Haaa. I don't think I have ever had a bigger internet laugh. Thanks, CM.

We have the story of the broken condom in our house. Actually they avoided pregnancy for almost all of a 7 year affair.

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I believe some of us are missing the obvious, even though it&#8217;s been stated many times.

We are responsible for our OWN actions.

To elaborate on that:
To me, that means that regardless of someone else&#8217;s degree of responsibility (WS, BS), I STILL have to own MY actions and make amends for what I did. What BS/WS did or didn&#8217;t do is irrelevant. When it came down to it, I was the one who decided to do what I did. It would be ridiculous to say that I had an affair with a married man because his wife was not meeting his needs. I get so weary of all the finger-pointing. Whether BS/WS is responsible for any wrong-doing or not, has absolutely nothing to do with ME being responsible for MY actions. Not to accuse anyone of being childish, but this so reminds of a petulant child defending their bad behavior by say "Well, SHE started it!&#8221; Who gives a [censored] who started it? The end result was a lot of unnecessary pain due to avoidable bad choices. Blame cannot easily be apportioned out to each involved individual. What burns me is that not only do the guilty parties try to minimize their share of the blame, they also try to justify/rationalize what blame they do have. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, but I can respect someone more for standing up and saying &#8220;I did it, and I&#8217;m sorry.&#8221; than someone who says &#8220;Well, it wasn&#8217;t all MY fault!&#8221;

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ohbratti1:
<strong>I believe some of us are missing the obvious, even though it&#8217;s been stated many times.

We are responsible for our OWN actions.

To elaborate on that:
To me, that means that regardless of someone else&#8217;s degree of responsibility (WS, BS), I STILL have to own MY actions and make amends for what I did. What BS/WS did or didn&#8217;t do is irrelevant. When it came down to it, I was the one who decided to do what I did. It would be ridiculous to say that I had an affair with a married man because his wife was not meeting his needs. I get so weary of all the finger-pointing. Whether BS/WS is responsible for any wrong-doing or not, has absolutely nothing to do with ME being responsible for MY actions. Not to accuse anyone of being childish, but this so reminds of a petulant child defending their bad behavior by say "Well, SHE started it!&#8221; Who gives a [censored] who started it? The end result was a lot of unnecessary pain due to avoidable bad choices. Blame cannot easily be apportioned out to each involved individual. What burns me is that not only do the guilty parties try to minimize their share of the blame, they also try to justify/rationalize what blame they do have. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, but I can respect someone more for standing up and saying &#8220;I did it, and I&#8217;m sorry.&#8221; than someone who says &#8220;Well, it wasn&#8217;t all MY fault!&#8221;

OB1</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think I follow your line of reasoning.
If I'm correct, you are saying the following:

1. OW/OM should own their actions and stand up and say I did it and I'm sorry?

2. BS owns no responsiblity as the WS made the sole decision to have the affair to begin with?

3. If the WS expresses honesty about giving spouse a chance to meet needs but BS does not, it does not constitute any wrong doing to the marital relationship and the WS is being 'childish'. The BS behavior or withholding of certain behaviors, does not affect the decision made by the WS to engage in affair?

It seems to me that this is one sided. Us WS or OP should all parade around, waving our arms saying, we did it, we did it, and we're sorry. (which many of are) But the BS should simply say, I forgive you or I do not forgive you. You..you...you, its all you, WS/OP. I'm innocent?

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CM,

When it comes to owning your actions, I referred to the position of the OW because that is who I am. However, owning your actions is something that applies universally. Your reference to parading around and waving your arms with declarations of guilt and remorse, was an exaggeration and lampoon of what I envisioned. All I&#8217;m suggesting CM, is that we focus on ourselves and being honest, and make amends for what WE, we meaning EVERYBODY, have done wrong, instead of trying to shift the blame to someone else. I tried to blame OM for the state of affairs I was in. But you know what? I was a willing participant. Yeah, he lied. So what? The fact still remained that I had slept with another woman&#8217;s husband. Whether I meant to hurt her or not, doesn&#8217;t really matter. I had harmed her and I owed her an apology. MM never apologized to me. His apology or lack of, has absolutely NOTHING to do with me making amends for what I did. I am still on the hook for the role I played in this whole mess...even if he never apologizes.

As for responsibility for the state of the marriage, I believe that belongs to the H and W. But, if the H decides to go outside of the marriage to have his needs met, I do believe that was solely his decision. We have choices. We have free will. There are other options besides getting entangled in an EMA. It&#8217;s kind of like drinking. There can be so many things pushing you to drink, but your sobriety rests solely on YOUR shoulders. If you &#8220;fall off the wagon&#8221;, it was you and no one else that held that drink to your lips. I&#8217;m sure that other &#8220;behaviors&#8221; or circumstances facilitated the fall, but the final decision was made by one person.

OB1

<small>[ November 21, 2002, 02:49 PM: Message edited by: ohbratti1 ]</small>

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Ohbratti

There is nothing more to add to your perspective....from the bottom of my heart. Thanks

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I agree with Catnip, thank you for your input. I thought I put that in. It is about making choices, responsible choices. H made choice to get involved with OW outside of marriage. She chose to get involved with a MM. The BS had no choices here. She did not know that her H was involved with OW until it was too late. And for those who post here, another child was probuced from the illicit affair.
Who made the choices? The H and the OW. Who suffers, they all do, but the affairees were RESPONSIBLE for the whole situation by their choices. Why can't they accept it and show some concern for the BS later. A BS who never asked for her H to get involved with another person. Last time I looked, no one here has the ability to read minds, you cannot know there are problems if you do not get told by the person with the problem.
opinonins?

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KS as you would say, oh good grief! I don't believe I have made any assumptions here, just giving my opinion. Of course, I could be wrong and I am open to change. I did mention on one of those previous pages that my opinions are simply originating out of "where I come from. So maybe where you come from single parenting of a married man's child is okay. Fine, not trying to offend you or anyone else... Relax!

You made it very clear from the beginning of your posting on MB that your becoming a single parent was your choice because of your anti-marriage, anti-commitment views. I don't have a problem with that.

We are talking on this thread about single/married other women who become pregnant by married men and whether or not they made amends or apologized to the betrayed spouse. Let's stay focused on the subject at hand! Please don't take my comments out of context. I have no hidden agendas...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 04:55 AM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

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BTDT-
you of all people should know that I NEVER apologize unless i'm really convinced that i'm wrong.

That said, I apologize for the misinterp of your comments. I can't even find what you said on this thread, but I read it to imply that all single mothers should feel shame. Or that we all felt shame and were not willing to admit it.

My child is not the product of my 10 year EMA so he's a different situation all together. I incorrectly assumed that you were projecting your shame onto others. I apologize.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
<strong>BTDT-
you of all people should know that I NEVER apologize unless i'm really convinced that i'm wrong.

That said, I apologize for the misinterp of your comments. I can't even find what you said on this thread, but I read it to imply that all single mothers should feel shame. Or that we all felt shame and were not willing to admit it.

My child is not the product of my 10 year EMA so he's a different situation all together. I incorrectly assumed that you were projecting your shame onto others. I apologize.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Apology ACCEPTED! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> ((CYBERHUGS)) <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think I might be guilty of projecting at times, but on this board I try to remember that my opinions are related to my experience, nothing more. And you know, our opinions can only be based on two things--what we have experienced and what we have not!!! We think we would react a certain way if... but in a given situation, we find we are capable of stooping way low or rising above--it IS our choice!

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Think about it... You KNOW who has not experienced infidelity in their marriage because they are the first ones to say DUMP the WS! Including Dr. Harley!!! OCs tend to make or break a marriage altogether. But you know, I wonder what someone would REALLY do if this happened to them--single OW with OC. It's easy for a BS to say, adopt out the OC or abort the OC but in a single OW shoes, what would they REALLY have in their heart to do? Think about it before just reacting... And I already kinda know the answer--they would NOT be an OW in the first place! See, I rest my case! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> (no flames intended please believe me!)

And although I am a wife without any affairs in my marriage... I believe I could/would forgive my H if he chose to have an affair. I also know that I would be the OW's worst nightmare! She would wish she never set eyes on my husband! I would probably be ALL in her face, yes, with my Christian beliefs and everything... I don't think I could rise above as so many of the BS's here on this forum have. I applaud you all... And, I understand the rage as well... HUGS to everyone... We need this place! We need each others' prayers and support...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 01:18 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

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Okay, so now this leads me to the point that mo5 and CMiranda have been attempting to make--WHY is it so easy for a BS to forgive their WS--who chose the affair as much as the OP? Hmmm.... something to think about...

In my mind, perhaps it boils down to the BS wanting to keep their family intact and wanting to keep their WS in their life MORESO than the OP. OP turns into an enemy and the WS turns into an ally--at least, that is the best case scenario...

So what do you do when the OP starts making demands or pushing their way into the established family unit due to their OC's rights, for lack of a better word? ????

Well see, then, I would have an all-out WAR on my hands! There ARE no easy answers to this! I already know myself enough to accept that I could not be as civil as mo5 has been in blending the two families for the OC's sake. I think I might be much too close-minded for that...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 01:22 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

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<<<WHY is it so easy for a BS to forgive their WS>>>
Who said it was easy. LOL
In my case , because my H asked for forgiveness and spends every waking moment of everday trying to make ammends for what he has done.
OW has not asked me to forgive her. She feels she did nothing wrong.

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Honestly, as an unmarried person who has had MANY affairs, if my H cheats I don't think i'd throw him out. Certainly it's a personal decision, but I just don't think that I would.

Now if he kep doing it, that's a whole other ball of wax. We're happliy monogomous now. But I still find myself doing some light man shopping from time to time. No sampling, just shopping.

I think the reason that I don't cheat now is that what we have is so hard fought.

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Well, BTDT, I hope that closed mind opens up so you can be the Christian woman you state and not let other people's sins send you to >>>>>>>>! Have a good one!

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I still don't get it. C Miranda, I don't think I will ever understand you all together.

YOu obviously find it nearly impossible to put yourself in my position. Or any of the BS position. Have you ever thought of your MM"s wife and how she might feel if she found out about what you and her H have done? Have you?

Who should I empathize with? The OW who has destroyed much of my life?why? She is my enemy. NOthing more. I feel no sympathy nor empathy for her. She feels no remorse towards me, just has made multiple demands on me, my H, and family. With those circumstances, why should I feel sympathy or empathy for her?

For the record, I am a usually compassionate woman. I have no compassion for people who deliberately hurt others. No one will convince me that many OW, in the throws of lust or love or whatever for MM, do not hurt the BS. It is implicit in the arrangement.

The only OW on this forum I view as worthy of empathy is Obratti, for she did not know her man was married, and BTDT, who truly is remorseful and has gone on to live her life without involvement of the MM"s family. ANd even OBratti is able to state some accountability for her decisions and all.

For the record, Catnip was right earlier. The only ones responsible for A were the people involved. In my case, that was H and OW. NOT ME. You can speak volumes about how your H wasn't meeting your needs, CM, and guess whether I was meeting my H's needs, but even if both those assumptions are true, my H and OW made a huge error, as you did with your MM. AS I heard DR. Phil state on his show this week related to infidelity, what one should not do in marriages , is turn outside to heal something inside of it. That is what my H did that was so wrong, that is what OW did that was so wrong. His attempts to go outside our marriage only has destroyed parts that will never be restored. He and I have lost much, and I resent that very much.

Also, I haven't forgiven H. It isn't easy. I don't feel the same toward him, doubt I ever will. This whole experience has destroyed my feelings of respect, loyalty, desire, love, etc. It will not come back easily. I am not sure it is even worth trying to get it back.

I just think people should start looking at their own responsibility for the affair.The only ones guilty of it are the involved people. Casting blame onto others for it doesn't absolve those involved people . No one is to blame but the affair partners.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">binthere
Okay, so now this leads me to the point that mo5 and CMiranda have been attempting to make--WHY is it so easy for a BS to forgive their WS--who chose the affair as much as the OP? Hmmm.... something to think about...

I would guess the same for other couples. They love each other and they know they were part of the breakdown in some way, in my husbands case he knew I had spent years dealing with his infidelity.He knew what had led me to my friend. [b]We had both done damage over the years and new we needed to make our family work, If we both felt there was a marriage to save. AND we decided there was. [/b]

In my mind, perhaps it boils down to the BS wanting to keep their family intact and wanting to keep their WS in their life MORESO than the OP. OP turns into an enemy and the WS turns into an ally--at least, that is the best case scenario...

So what do you do when the OP starts making demands or pushing their way into the established family unit due to their OC's rights, for lack of a better word? ???? COPROMISE COMPROMISE COMPROMISE. One of the hardest things for me to learn, I am used to getting my way.
Well see, then, I would have an all-out WAR on my hands! There ARE no easy answers to this! AMEN I already know myself enough to accept that I could not be as civil as mo5 has been in blending the two families for the OC's sake. I think I might be much too close-minded for that...
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">You seem to think I have another choice...

<small>[ November 22, 2002, 05:14 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

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my my my CM,

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">3. If the WS expresses honesty about giving spouse a chance to meet needs but BS does not, it does not constitute any wrong doing to the marital relationship and the WS is being 'childish'. The BS behavior or withholding of certain behaviors, does not affect the decision made by the WS to engage in affair?
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Ok, so how 'bout this senario.

I withhold sex from my husband. I'm being childish and not meeting his emotional or physcial needs. He goes out depressed/angry/whatever and drinks up half the bar. Then kills someone in a D.U.I. on his way home. Does that mean I'm responsible "to some degree" for the death of that innocent victim?

and i put "to some degree" in quotation marks because of what you said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Yes, others have their major role, but so too does the spouse of the ws to varying degrees.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CM Please explain using my analogy how a spouse is responsible for a BAD decision the other spouse makes.

It just isn't logical. And it just ain't right.

I refuse to take responsibility to a choice he and his ego made. And I hold him responsible for that choice.

I hold her responsible for her bad choices too.

I only hold myself accountable for my portion that contributed to the breakdown of the marriage. Everything and anything that happened outside of our marriage was squarely on their sholders.

Bottom line ... you are that miserable in a relationship ... you either get counseling and work on it or you get a divorce. Easy enough in this day and age of quickie divorce. That's the RIGHT way to deal with it. Not out trampling all over innocent people (BS and children of the marriage) and creating other innocent victims (OC)!

CM anxiously awaiting your reply,
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Some clarification is in order here.

BTDT, You made a comment that I first seen in M05's reply to you. I don't know how you've determined that the point I'm trying to make (along with M05) is that it is so easy for the BS to forgive the WS. I do think there is a contradiction where WS is seen as the victim by many of the BS's here, and OP as the "perp", but that is not a point I'm trying to make here. I agree with M05 in pointing it out, but I think I understand why the BS would focus on the OP and not the WS. In part, I believe it is easier to focus on OP and to avoid looking at how BS contributed to the WS unhappy state. I'm not blaming BS, we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness. If WS is/was unhappy, it can not be blamed completely on anyone. Just as the A can not be blamed on some OP seducing the poor WS.
We all own our role in it.

ZB, You've completely misunderstood what I am saying in quote #3. I'm taking and turning what Ohbratti said to ask her if childishness (her word not mine) extends as well to the BS who tries to dodge their role in the marital breakdown? I use my case as an example. However, my H has owned his actions, or lack thereof. I think men handle these situations differently. He is much more focused on us and where we went wrong not to mention his own behavior that contributed to our emotional disconnect. We are both responsible, over years, toward the breakdown of our marriage. It was not one night, one bad decision. Nonetheless, I never said that a spouse is responsible for a bad decision the other spouse makes. I don't believe that. What I am saying is that both marriage partners are responsible for the breakdown in their marriage, not only the WS. Just as both affair partners are responsible for the A, not just the OP.

I used to feel the same way that you describe ZB. If you are that miserable, just get a divorce.
I soppose there are varying degrees of miserable; yet I also found out that people stay married for a variety of reasons. Right or wrong, it is the truth. The best part about staying for the wrong reason is it is possible to make the marriage a happy and fullfilling once again. If 2 people can make their way back to eachother and find happiness again, it is a great accomplishment and worth celebrating.

CM

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by unhappy wife:
<strong>I still don't get it. C Miranda, I don't think I will ever understand you all together.

YOu obviously find it nearly impossible to put yourself in my position. Or any of the BS position. Have you ever thought of your MM"s wife and how she might feel if she found out about what you and her H have done? Have you?

Who should I empathize with? The OW who has destroyed much of my life?why? She is my enemy. NOthing more. I feel no sympathy nor empathy for her. She feels no remorse towards me, just has made multiple demands on me, my H, and family. With those circumstances, why should I feel sympathy or empathy for her?

For the record, I am a usually compassionate woman. I have no compassion for people who deliberately hurt others. No one will convince me that many OW, in the throws of lust or love or whatever for MM, do not hurt the BS. It is implicit in the arrangement.

The only OW on this forum I view as worthy of empathy is Obratti, for she did not know her man was married, and BTDT, who truly is remorseful and has gone on to live her life without involvement of the MM"s family. ANd even OBratti is able to state some accountability for her decisions and all.

For the record, Catnip was right earlier. The only ones responsible for A were the people involved. In my case, that was H and OW. NOT ME. You can speak volumes about how your H wasn't meeting your needs, CM, and guess whether I was meeting my H's needs, but even if both those assumptions are true, my H and OW made a huge error, as you did with your MM. AS I heard DR. Phil state on his show this week related to infidelity, what one should not do in marriages , is turn outside to heal something inside of it. That is what my H did that was so wrong, that is what OW did that was so wrong. His attempts to go outside our marriage only has destroyed parts that will never be restored. He and I have lost much, and I resent that very much.

Also, I haven't forgiven H. It isn't easy. I don't feel the same toward him, doubt I ever will. This whole experience has destroyed my feelings of respect, loyalty, desire, love, etc. It will not come back easily. I am not sure it is even worth trying to get it back.

I just think people should start looking at their own responsibility for the affair.The only ones guilty of it are the involved people. Casting blame onto others for it doesn't absolve those involved people . No one is to blame but the affair partners.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">UW,

I am talking about empathy, not sympathy. I can empathize a great deal with the BS. More than perhaps I communicated effectively on this board.
I have gotten stuck in the blame game and that is why I pointed it out to you. It is a part of the cycle toward recoverying. Yet, it rings so loudly from you that you blame OP and OW, even OC for all of your marital problems and it simply can't be true. You have some role in that. No, you aren't responsible for WS's choice to have an affair. Absolutely not, not any BS. I'm not saying that at all. What I am saying is what about you, the BS? Do you not have to reflect on you and determine where it is that you are in need of improvement? Did you not contribute the state of your M pre-affair? The marriage is about the 2 married people. The OP can not infringe upon nor come between people who are happy and fullfilled and where they want to be at the time of the A.
You are very judgemental here, do you not believe that comes across to your ws?
If you think I'm unworthy of empathy, that's fine. I do not seek empathy from you. You empathize with someone who you can agree with. To me, that is not true empathy at all.
If you continue to blame, you become a prisioner of hate and unhappiness to the very people you are so focused on. What is wrong with spending some time looking within UW? Surely you can not be perfect.

CM

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 10:10 AM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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It isn't easy to forgive the WS. I remember days looking at him and thinking of being with OW and being sick to my stomach. I remember thinking how could I be intimate with him after he had been intimate with her. The intimacies he shared with her were supposed to shared with ME alone. Thinking the few times I kised him if he was comparing my kiss to hers, I could go on.
Trusting him to not do it again. My H traveled when he got involved with OW, he still travels. Even now, when our sex life falters due to his job and mine I wonder, The price he pays is when this happens I corner him and demand to know if he is sleeping with someone else. Because he knows that I won's tolerate it this time. If he ever cheats on me again. I walk and he will pay big time. I see the pain on his face as tells me no and says he wishes he had never been involved with OW for the millionth time.
If you think it was easy you're deluding yourself. And, yes, I came close to walking away, if I had been childless I might have. But I didn't, and I still loved him, there the was still the original person I married lurking there. The kind soul, loving person, the gentle man who would wrap his arms around me when I wept over his indiscretion and most important, HE didn't want to end it. He realized that the person he contemplated leaving me for was actually not the person he wanted to be with.
He realised that she was not worth the trials and tribulations he would have to go thru to be with her. Like I questioned his character, he questioned hers, what kind of woman would get involved with a married man. Would he want that woman to raise his children to be moral people. Would she be a good role model for his daughters?
He decided no.
One should always question if the person you're involved with is someone you want to meet your parents. He did not want his mother to meet this person.
Never believe that getting to this point was easy.

Texasgirl

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CMiranda, you naively believe that all affairs are about troubled marriages. It isn't always so. I think people who get involved in affairs have some characterlogical defect that makes it o.k to do this. It would never be o.k to do this to my H by me.

Let me tell you. Of course I look back and see things I wish I had done differently in my marriage. I don't hide from that. But like texasgirl said, my H was never direct about what he was not happy with-merely indirect and not clear. Instead of trying to do that with me, he took an easy road and did that with a stranger, the OW. He took an easy way out, and ruined his relationship with me.

Even the therapists we have seen say he did not talk to me directly, spell it out, etc. He made that mistake. I am not responsible for that.

That said, as I look back during the years of the A, I realize I was quite unhappy with him and his demeanor and attitude toward me. He was cruel, critical, uncaring and not loving toward me. I often thought that about him. I often felt unhappy, felt he was not meeting my needs.

But I didn't seek an affair, and trust me, there have been times in my life where a few opportunities arose with attractive single and married men expressed interest in such a relationship. I was unhappy-I wasn't having my needs met-why didn't I have an affair?

Why? Because my vows mattered to me-because doing that to my H was abhorent to me. Because I valued him even when he wasn't meeting my needs.Because within me, doing this to him wasn't going to happen. I couldn't do it-even to get my needs met.

So what is the difference between him and me-- weakness, addiction, character flaws, etc. We both may have needs that weren't being met-- but he chose a path that made problems even bigger.

I think he is more to blame, as is the OW. You will never convince me otherwise.

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 12:21 PM: Message edited by: unhappy wife ]</small>

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Hi Guys ....

OW #1 apologized to me.

When OW #1 apologized she said she was very sorry for sending me a Hallmark Baby Announcement card in the mail. On the front of the card it had a picture of a beautiful newborn and when you opened it, was preprinted:

"Enjoy Every Precious Moment"

and she wrote this:

"Steve's done it AGAIN, I'm pregnant with his baby and due in early November"

By "AGAIN" she meant that OW #2 had just 2 mos before had my H's first child, which was devistating for me, as you all may know. To then receive her card in the mail was a blow that almost put me in the rubber room.

But she did apologize 7+ years later and I told her that I forgave her. She also said that she would have never had an affair with my H if she would have known me. By that I think she meant she ended up liking me, and hurting me made her feel bad about herself.

Jo

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 02:34 PM: Message edited by: Resilient ]</small>

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by unhappy wife:
[qb]CMiranda, you naively believe that all affairs are about troubled marriages. It isn't always so. I think people who get involved in affairs have some characterlogical defect that makes it o.k to do this. It would never be o.k to do this to my H by me.

---> I speak from my own experience. That is the case with ex-om and I. It is the case of others I communicate with about their affairs. I'm sure what you say is true, there are several types of affairs. I don't believe it is characteristic. There is an inherent lack of evidence to support your claim. If that were true, MB wouldn't exist would it? One of the greatest advantages to affair proofing a marraige is honesty and meeting partners needs. Remember?

Let me tell you. Of course I look back and see things I wish I had done differently in my marriage. I don't hide from that. But like texasgirl said, my H was never direct about what he was not happy with-merely indirect and not clear. Instead of trying to do that with me, he took an easy road and did that with a stranger, the OW. He took an easy way out, and ruined his relationship with me.

----> I can so respect your experience with your H. He sounds like alot of men regarding lack of communication skills in sharing their feelings and needs. I've also mentioned this in my past posts on this thread as a major problem for female BS's. I was forthcoming in my feelings with my H but that is probably because I'm female and expressing my feelings is fairly easy for me.

Even the therapists we have seen say he did not talk to me directly, spell it out, etc. He made that mistake. I am not responsible for that.

----> You are right 100% about that.

That said, as I look back during the years of the A, I realize I was quite unhappy with him and his demeanor and attitude toward me. He was cruel, critical, uncaring and not loving toward me. I often thought that about him. I often felt unhappy, felt he was not meeting my needs.

---> Did you tell him so?

But I didn't seek an affair, and trust me, there have been times in my life where a few opportunities arose with attractive single and married men expressed interest in such a relationship. I was unhappy-I wasn't having my needs met-why didn't I have an affair?

---> Okay, let me tell you something very frankly UW. I didn't seek an A either. I too was unhappy, frustrated, tired, uncared for, etc. I didn't seek out anyone and there were occasions when I had to shun being hit on and flirted with my men. I wasn't seeking an affair. It went against what I was raised to believe was right. It went against my grain and my value system. I met a guy that became my friend. We were assigned to work on a long term project together. We worked nights and weekends together. We began to communicate about everything from problem solving on the job, to our college days, etc. He met my #1 need, which at the time I didn't even identify as something that I needed so much. It wasn't a plan. I didn't go out and say, hey, here is a man, any man, who I threw to the ground, tore off his clothes and had an A with him. That isn't exactly how these things work.

Why? Because my vows mattered to me-because doing that to my H was abhorent to me. Because I valued him even when he wasn't meeting my needs.Because within me, doing this to him wasn't going to happen. I couldn't do it-even to get my needs met.

---> My vows mattered to me. If you think the WS doesn't care about vows, you are mistaken. I believed our vows didn't matter to my H anymore. He was ignoring me and ignoring what I was telling him for a long time about how our M was failing and why I felt that was happening.

So what is the difference between him and me-- weakness, addiction, character flaws, etc. We both may have needs that weren't being met-- but he chose a path that made problems even bigger.

---> The problems sure do get bigger. Ask any ws if they think when going into it, that there problems will get bigger? In my case the answer was obviously no! Even when I didn't get caught, my/our problems still got much bigger..MUCH BIGGER. I don't agree with the character flaw theory. If that were the case, I would think I'd have been a cheater much earlier in my life. I've been faced with problems before where my needs weren't met, I was seperated from my then boyfriend, now H, during my college years, andwhatever, and still I didn't cheat.

I think he is more to blame, as is the OW. You will never convince me otherwise.

---> I'm not interested in convincing you. Its really your loss, not mine. My H is much more open to his role than to blaming me or om. I'm much more willing to accept my role because of his lack of blaming me for all his/our problems. His finger isn't in my face all day long, month after month, nor is mine in his face. Actually there are no fingers flying anywhere. It just doesn't work. My M is getting better everyday. Is yours?

<small>[ November 23, 2002, 01:28 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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Can we get back to what is helpful to save marriages??

Has this bickering thread actually helped anyone?

pj3 said: I've noticed alot of threads where people are asking for help and only get a few responses or it turns into a "who's right" post.

Sad but true.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>There is an inherent lack of evidence to support your claim.

=^^= What is it?

If that were true, MB wouldn't exist would it?

=^^- Are you being snotty?

One of the greatest advantages to affair proofing a marraige is honesty and meeting partners needs. Remember?

=^^= Are you being snotty?

I don't agree with the character flaw theory.

=^^= Why not?

I think he is more to blame, as is the OW. You will never convince me otherwise.

I'm not interested in convincing you.

=^^= Are you being snotty?

Its really your loss, not mine.

=^^= What does this mean? What is UW's "loss" and how is it applicable to what she stated to you?
My M is getting better everyday. Is yours?

=^^= What is this? Nah, nah, nah, nah, nah? Or does this mean you and your husband have embarked on your recovery with your Rules of Honesty intact and your D-day behind you? If so, a hearty congratulations. Am I being snotty?
</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>Can we get back to what is helpful to save marriages??

Has this bickering thread actually helped anyone?

pj3 said: I've noticed alot of threads where people are asking for help and only get a few responses or it turns into a "who's right" post.

Sad but true.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's because there are too many OW's on this site who inflame us and push our buttons...constantly. They should have their own seperate site.

I am sorry, Jen. You are absolutely right and I apologize for getting in one last lick but I have really, really, really had it and I am not going to be any easier to live with these next few days. Sorry. I'll try to do better.

The bickering is horrible and I am sick of it but I can't stand these people continuing to snark us at every turn, at every issue. It has got to stop.

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Catnip,
I explained myself throughly in my post to uw. Please reread it again and try to remain unbiased, the answers to your questions are in there.
p.s. I've always been direct, that is my nature. I'm not being snotty.

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jenny:
<strong>Can we get back to what is helpful to save marriages??

Has this bickering thread actually helped anyone?

pj3 said: I've noticed alot of threads where people are asking for help and only get a few responses or it turns into a "who's right" post.

Sad but true.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's because there are too many OW's on this site who inflame us and push our buttons...constantly. They should have their own seperate site.

I am sorry, Jen. You are absolutely right and I apologize for getting in one last lick but I have really, really, really had it and I am not going to be any easier to live with these next few days. Sorry. I'll try to do better.

The bickering is horrible and I am sick of it but I can't stand these people continuing to snark us at every turn, at every issue. It has got to stop.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Doesn't anyone see that blaming doesn't work? This is so exaggerated. Go and thank malc if you want to start pointing your finger.

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Ladies,

This is a waste of energy. I'd suggest that you channel your energy back into building your marriages. If you have extra energy, perhaps sit down and ask God to help you really see the situation from the other side---without hate. Try to put yourself in the other's shoes, and have some compassion. Compassion doesn't mean agreement. It doesn't mean you have to like them. And in the case of some, it may not even change your mind much (for those blessed with dealing with pathological psycho-types).

I sit here and think tonight of my wife's OM. I wonder how he feels about having left a child behind. Does he hurt? Does he ache to know what has happened? And I ask God to relieve this man's pain and doubts, and let him know that this child will be well-cared for.

It doesn't mean that I want the OM in our lives, or that I'll send him a family Christmas card. But it helps to demonstrate that the world isn't always so black and white. We're soon beginning a season which celebrates the birth of a small child who eventually died for our sins... all of us. Think about his example.

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And the people of God said "Amen and amen."

With that, I hope that we will leave this thread.

Shalom,
MJ

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Good morning all, I have been surprised with how far this has gone. I did not initially start this to inflame others, but out of curiousity.

There has been so much said about how awful it is that in addition to father of the OC paying cs he should be an active father in that child's life.
Some people seemed to feel that the child was owed an active father. Are they? What about the children of divorce, where a parent walks out and never looks back? Nothing is perfect, we deal with the hand we are dealt. (If I had divorced my H, my children wouldn't have had an active father in their lives)
That didn't happen in our lives due to logistics between our family and my H preference. He travels so much that he didn't want to split his time between our children and hers, esp since the OC/OW were a 1000 miles away. In addition, to heal our marriage, we didn't need to be distract by the OW and her shenanigans to get him back.
He was also ashamed of his relationship with her and didn't want to announce his relationhip to her child. His parents died without knowing they had another grandchild.
I didn't mean to stir up a hornet's nest, just wanted to know if others had received from the Ow an apology. At least acknowledgement that she knew she had caused the wife pain and wanted to make amends. My marriage is better in spite of his affair and things between us are good. We learned from our mistakes and have moved on. Occasionally I bring things up but just to address things I had wanted to bring up before but did not because I didn't want to be accused of "rocking the boat". Now they are nonissues, but I am curious.
K is right we need to become productive and put malice and hurt behind us and create what we all want, better marital relationships.

Enjoy the holidays, and be thankful for our families.

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Think the problem,Texasgirl, is when statements are made like "her child". Its his child, too. ANd yes, every child should have an active father. If people don't want children, they shouldn't have unprotected sex. Children should not have to pay for grownups mistakes. You'll never convince me otherwise; I'm an advocate for kids! And its a shame what children are forced to go through with in this country! We say we love the little ones but our actions don't show it! I might as well be living in a war-torn country with a bunch of militants to hear the lives of BABIES being devalued! Whew!

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by luscious:
<strong>Well, BTDT, I hope that closed mind opens up so you can be the Christian woman you state and not let other people's sins send you to >>>>>>>>! Have a good one!</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"><img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> You are right lucious and I hope that if my marriage ever took a turn where my H fathers an OC that I would be able to step up to the plate and be the woman God expects me to be... if not, at least I hope I could be civilized. At this point in my Christian growth, I just don't see that happening... I'm just being honest here so I hope you can tell the difference between being Christian and being honest about one's human condition and current state of mind...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">CM said:

I do think there is a contradiction where WS is seen as the victim by many of the BS's here, and OP as the "perp", but that is not a point I'm trying to make here. <strong>I agree with M05 in pointing it out...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That's all I was trying to say...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I said:
<strong>...I already know myself enough to accept that I could not be as civil as mo5 has been in blending the two families for the OC's sake. I think I might be much too close-minded for that...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">To which Mo5 said:
<strong>
You seem to think I have another choice... </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">That last remark was intended to be a compliment to you, mo5. Too bad it seems you didn't read it as such. So okay, *sigh* I'm officially done with this thread...

p.s.I just can't see blending together with an OM's family for the sake of one kid with several other existing children and family members' feelings to also consider. Of course, I'm not in your shoes mo5so it's easy for me to say... It's just that I keep envisioning your OM's grown daughter and her open hostility toward OC! That kind of resentment doesn't just disappear one day over time... This is a grown up we are talking about! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> Maybe I'm being presumptuous in my thinking, but one day, OC will grow up and if that daughter doesn't have a change of heart, OC will see it eventually... I just don't know if it would be worth taking the risk, even if for the OC's sake... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 01:09 PM: Message edited by: BINthereDUNthat ]</small>

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Bin there

I am sorry, I did see that as a compliment.
I was just in a hurry, no offense taken.

p.s.I just can't see blending together with an OM's family for the sake of one kid with several other existing children and family members' feelings to also consider. Of course, I'm not in your shoes mo5so it's easy for me to say... It's just that I keep envisioning your OM's grown daughter and her open hostility toward OC! That kind of resentment doesn't just disappear one day over time... This is a grown up we are talking about! Maybe I'm being presumptuous in my thinking, but one day, OC will grow up and if that daughter doesn't have a change of heart, OC will see it eventually... I just don't know if it would be worth taking the risk, even if for the OC's sake...

If om is in her life, I dont have a choice but for my daughter ot know not all people are loving and she in time will see this woman for what she is.

It is om's wifes daughter. Om has a daughter who thinks of my daughter as her sister and loves her tremendously. She always treats me and my other children with respect. she is a very sweet lady.
OM and his wife have NO children to gether.

so OM's step daughter will eventually grow up and realise this baby is loved reguardless, or she will not be welcome in her life, and unfortunately she is already hurting her self, and i dont have to do any thing but let her sink her self. I just continue being nice to her she does all the damage to her self. she has only seen my daughter three times, I am not really concerned any more, om and I have discussed it at length, He will protect our daughter. and I try and understand his wife is torn between her daughters bad behavior and she also loves her daughter. so I stay out of it.

as far as mine and my husbands children go, They have all been taught to love unconditionally. we have many adopted children, and some of mix races through out my family, my children are taught that we love and stand by our family.People are just peole and we love them no matter what. They make mistakes, but we learn to forgive .

what I meant by no other choice, I meant that If I love my daughter than I owe it to her to make this the best life for her, and since om insist that he loves her and wants in her life, I have to respect that and make the best of it.
Thats what I meant by no choice...
for me there is no choice.

My daughter will have to learn that not all people are nice and as om says she will see that in his stepdaughter and he will make sure she is not hurt and doesnt have to be around garbage.

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 01:34 PM: Message edited by: mom of five ]</small>

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by the way I shold point out that om's stepdaughter feels the same way about his children from his first marriage, and he was married for over 20 years.

I might also point out that the child his step daughter has, was conceived with a man she was not married to , who was married to someone else and she treats his two children from that marriage, the girls who are now teens dont even want to be around there dad.. so I dont think it was all about me, she is just not a nice person

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Oh, I know its hard. You can get crazy at times. SOmetimes I say things I don't mean, things that are ugly,BTDT. Its hard to think Christian at all times when your life feels like an explosion! And nothing is working! Its easy to be bitter and lash out but its probably not right. But sometimes it feels so good to lash out!

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There was some very good opinions and experiences shared among the recent bunk. I think that in cases where we, the op/ws are concerned, when someone says to me that I'm a big girl and should know how not to get preg., for example, we get completely side tracked. The lack of respect can be incredible. When a bs comes along, llike today, and says that we, the op/ws, make flaming remarks like, H should have worn a condom, it speaks volumes about their sick thinking process. The remark made to me about getting preg. implies to me, that it was done intentionally or that I had complete control over it happening. So, in my honestly, I tell the truth about the condom deal. Again, if I'm disrespected, the least one will get is the plain,hard, truth. Like it or not. If the truth inflames you, then so be it.
On the other hand, I'm a reasonable person. I can negotiate for respect. If we can all do what K suggests drop the disrespect, then maybe we'd sit down and really read what written and think about it. And grow. I personally think there is lot of learning and growing ahead of many of us. Yes, some are stuck, have been, and will remain that way, but they are the minority.

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CM,
Why is it when you post one of your hurtful, hateful replies it is "the plain, hard truth " but when a BS does it it is disrespectful ?

Lucious,
***I'm an advocate for kids***
I'm an advocate for civil rights and you cannot diminish the rights of one segment of the population to enhance the rights of another.

Thats it, I'm done. I was run off once before and I guess I'm going again.
The fact is an OW cannot understand a BS POV and vice versa. I know many of you OW claim to be a BS also, but you cannot understand the POV of a person that has never cheated.
But before I go I want to say that no, my H has no contact with his child. And no CM and MO5, he is not a coward or irresponsible. He is a man that made what he thought was the best decision he could in an unwinnable situation. He, unlike you, holds no one but himself responsible for the decision he made.

Jtigger

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jtigger:
<strong>...The fact is an OW cannot understand a BS POV and vice versa. I know many of you OW claim to be a BS also, but you cannot understand the POV of a person that has never cheated...</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Well said! And note that many OW, just like many WS "NEVER thought" in a million years that they would ever make such a choice... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" /> Not excusing any wrongdoing, just a fact...

I'm trying to understand. This place has helped me understand more than I ever would out in the world on my own within my daily environment. This site is also helping me learn how to avoid it in the future. I'm sure this site helps the BS learn how to win back their spouses as well! We'll get to where we need to be if we keep moving forward in our individual personal growth.

I respect everyone here. It wasn't always that way, but I have opened my mind to be more empathetic and try to stand in someone else's shoes if but for a second...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" /> lucious no worries, I took what you said as sincere... You are right! Sins of others should not have any part in sending me to hell (through hatred and unforgiveness and resentment and bitterness)! Especially when we have God inside of us enabling us to rise above the circumstances and chaos. (See Psalm 91)!!! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Did you know that eagles fly way above the storm clouds where there are calm skies!? Neat, huh? That's what I mean by "rise above"...

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Jtigger: Not quite sure what you meant about civil rights; I wasn't suggesting anybody get shortchanged. I was just saying I don't like the sh...ty attitude towards the kids. Its not right. And the last part?! I have NEVER cheated but been cheated on too many times to count! And had it thrown in my face! Have you ever had to come home to your house and find some other woman's "things" on your side of the closet?! And then have her gloat about it to you how she leaves her things around house, car, etc just so you'll know she's been there?! And I can honestly say, I've never cheated! you know hat, you're getting me upset right now so I'll stop typing because the memories are making me mad!

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I'm an advocate for civil rights and you cannot diminish the rights of one segment of the population to enhance the rights of another.

Thats it, I'm done. I was run off once before and I guess I'm going again.
The fact is an OW cannot understand a BS POV and vice versa. I know many of you OW claim to be a BS also, but you cannot understand the POV of a person that has never cheated.
But before I go I want to say that no, my H has no contact with his child. And no CM and MO5, he is not a coward or irresponsible. He is a man that made what he thought was the best decision he could in an unwinnable situation. He, unlike you, holds no one but himself responsible for the decision he made.

Jtigger </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I do understand the point of someone who has never cheated, I spent many years in my marriage as a faithfull wife who would never ever do such a thing.. never even dreamed it possible. I know what it is like probably have been through it more than most on this site... when you are beat down for so long, you just never know what you might do.

we dont have to all agree to learn from each other.

I think if you and your husband do not want contact with his child, then that is best for you and for that child. so if that was the best your husband could do for that baby, then who am I to argue other wise, I am sure life is better for both your family and oc's family. I can see how many would benefit from that. I am not faulting you for that.

I am responsible for my self, if I wasnt, I would have just aborted and pretended it never happened, But no instead, I told my family and friends and worked through it all and had my baby, and am taking care of her.

I did feel om was a coward, so did he, he told me that, I knew he was capable of so much more, it took him one week after the baby was born to change his mind.

I am not the norm I know, But I dont think you should think I am attacking just because I know there are other ways to work on things, and a different one worked for me and my husband.

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you don't think that by having a child against the father's wishes, the OW has made a decision to become a parent, whether the other parent involved has the desire or not. I don't advocate abortion, but she had the option to put the child up for adoption and not involve an unwilling man and his family in her life.
To me when the OW gets pregnant and keeps it against the father's wishes, she has made a decision to go it alone. Especially if he tells her he doesn't want to father her child.
These ideas are just totally unrealistic and selfish.

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well if you new my story you would know I did choose to go it alone, in fact husband and om wanted nothing to do with it, so I told them both good by and I was prepared to go it alone and would have and done just fine.
They just happened to change their mind along the way and are now grateful, I ignored them.
but again I can only speak for me.

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These ideas are totally selfish and unrealistic...

I guess both parties could feel that to some degree.

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<small>[ November 25, 2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Texasgirl:
<strong>you don't think that by having a child against the father's wishes, the OW has made a decision to become a parent, whether the other parent involved has the desire or not. I don't advocate abortion, but she had the option to put the child up for adoption and not involve an unwilling man and his family in her life.
To me when the OW gets pregnant and keeps it against the father's wishes, she has made a decision to go it alone. Especially if he tells her he doesn't want to father her child.
These ideas are just totally unrealistic and selfish.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Don't know if you are directing your question to me or not. My ex was not unwilling in any aspect of my involvment with him, up to conceiving and giving birth.
But, for the record, if any man wants to cry innocent bystander, and tells his spouse he didn't want to father her child, I'd hope it was pre-conception. Otherwise, unless he keeps his pants on, those are only words. Meaninless to my ears.

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<small>[ November 25, 2002, 08:53 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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<small>[ November 25, 2002, 08:51 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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JT,

There you go again, making assumptions and accusations. Not to mention judgements. With that, you and whomever will hear the cold hard facts of MY experience. Not my SPECULATION. If the word condom should come up, so be it.
Civil rights? Oh, my Lord,lets not cry wolf. Now we're advocating violating civil rights?! I'm chuckling now.
Oh, and who do I hold responsible again? Thats a good one. You have no idea! I don't blame other people for my actions and IF you have ever actually comprehended my posts, you'd know that already. I've said it since day one.
Don't bother to answer me, you said you were done and that is good with me. Your playing the victim, by claiming to be run off of here because someone doesn't agree with every cyber word you type. Blaming someone else yet again.
Hopefully those who feel run off can find the support they are looking for or support for the endless complaining, blaming, and foul name calling. I hope you and anyone else who is run off get what you need and are looking for.

CM[/QB][/QUOTE]

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another dp oops

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CMiranda,
I'd really like to know why you have to be so sarcastic and belittling. Does it make you feel better? Do you think that these women don't know that their husbands made some really pitiful choices? I always knew my husband made lousy choices - but I desperately needed to believe in him and believe in our marriage. Do you think BS are not aware that their husbands should have used contraceptives - or even better, not had extramarital sex in the first place? Do you think you are helping them at all by rubbing it in their faces and poking fun at them for wanting to believe in something? Come on! It's obvious that you are not stupid and I think you sometimes have some very good points when you are not being so downright mean. You can do better than that. There is no sport in picking on the wounded. Show some compassion, please, and I think you will find the support here that you need for yourself.
-cdcollins

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by cdcollins:
[QB]CMiranda,
I'd really like to know why you have to be so sarcastic and belittling. Does it make you feel better?
--> I've gotten down in the mud with the bs's. We are now at the same level. If that is how they talk to me, I respond in the same manner. It doesn't make me feel better. Nor do their insults. All the same.

Do you think that these women don't know that their husbands made some really pitiful choices?

--> When I am reminded of my bad choices by the almighty bs, get ready to be reminded that I'm not just an ow, I'm a ws. Funny, that seems to be lost here.

Do you think BS are not aware that their husbands should have used contraceptives - or even better, not had extramarital sex in the first place?

---> There you go with the one sided argument again. You missed the post about how I am a big girl and should have known how not to get pregnant. My poor little MM, he was too naive to know he had a choice. A BS actually said the woman called all the shots where conception was concerned. THAT is where my remark about putting on a condom came from. If someone is stupid enough or disrespectful to tell me that my MM didn't have any control over his seed distribution, and it was all me for 7 years, in control, then they deserve the truth.

Do you think you are helping them at all by rubbing it in their faces and poking fun at them for wanting to believe in something? Come on!

--> If they decide to hit me below my belt time and again, do they expect my respect in return? Come on.. that is a perfect choice of words cd. I agree with you completely.

It's obvious that you are not stupid and I think you sometimes have some very good points when you are not being so downright mean. You can do better than that. There is no sport in picking on the wounded. Show some compassion, please, and I think you will find the support here that you need for yourself.

---> Unfortunately, my being nice hasn't worked. Just as soon as I get honest and agree with another poster in the minority or tell a poster that her bad choice of words were offensive TO ME, then all hell breaks loose. That person did apologize but after a long drawn out battle of words. Sometimes the BS's like to argue their own pov and play the know it all on affairs.
If my presentation has gotten rough it is because when I'm mistreated, I simply roll up my sleeves. If they want to roll in the mud, so be it. I'm tired of prancing around them in my tidiness.
I find it typical that you reply to me, yet a post such as gemini's, on k's thread, a resistent, constant complainer with plenty of insults and poor delivery, goes untouched.
It speaks volumes about the agenda.
You are also a smart person cd, if you had taken the time to read what I wrote and what others wrote to me, I'd imagine you would have deduced the reasons for the condom comment on your own. Instead you assumed.

CM

<small>[ November 25, 2002, 10:05 PM: Message edited by: CMiranda ]</small>

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The fact is, C Miranda, texasgirl, CD, catnip, me, and all others who post here, are victims. Victims of bad choices by our husbands and the women they became involved with. To suggest texasgirl is not is absurd.

None of us made the choice for our spouse's to cheat, to either use non failproof birth control, or use nothing at all. None of us were consulted as to how we felt about all this, during it's height, and none of us were informed by either party until the damage was already inflicted by both parties and it was too late to stop the madness.

The fact is,as I told my H the other night, I resent tremendously the OW's attempt to infiltrate my life, bother me, hassle us, demand things of me and him. I find it incredibly irritating.As I said to him, I never invited her into my life-and yet she is constantly affecting me and my family's life. I resent that. He agreed, he knows it is all his doing. BAd choices by him. Is he regretting it.

Don't be so unkind to the damaged people here. It really isn't necessary.
YOu are so angry--so hurt I suspect as well.

Perhaps things aren't as good in your life as you make it out to be. I hope things improve for you.

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That was very kind of you, UW, to point out (I am paraphrasing here) that the root of anger is sadness.

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UW,
Assuming the role of victim in a relationship that requires 2 people to make it work, is upsurd. It is blaming the other for all of your problems. I reject that just as you reject the WS saying we are the victims.
I see the issue as a group of some women here who refuse to accept responsibililty for their share of a bad marriage. Men do not seem to share in the reaction as a whole.
Men do not react the way many of the female BS's here do. More directly, the negative bs's here. In my experience and from what I have been told my other female WS's, men's reaction, my H's and what K described, are not what you all are doing. Not by a long shot. What you are doing coming here blaming with your fingers extended outward, is counterproductive and not real.
That is what angers me lately. My H doesn't blame me for all of our problems in spite of what I did. We have been able to get to the meat of our issues rather than me sit on the defense stand everyday while he blames me for all that went wrong. He acknowledges that OUR MARRIAGE WASN'T PERFECT BEFORE THE AFFAIR.
He has not problem seeing the same thing that I do where that is concerned.

Our problems, no matter who we are, didn't all happen while we were sleeping. There come a time where we are ultimately responsible for our own happiness. All the blaming and finger pointing is useless and gets you nowhere.

CM

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I think the best way to combat negative behavior is by deliberately NOT behaving in a like manner. Rewarding bad behavior with more bad behavior only leads to, yep&#8230;.more bad behavior. This is the dark side of &#8220;do unto others&#8221;. The question is where does it stop? That&#8217;s a thought for everyone. Pointing out another&#8217;s fault does not correct it. We lose credibility because we are all guilty of committing the same error at some time or another. I know I&#8217;m guilty of mouthing off. I know there have been a few times where I sunk kind of low in response to a post that just made my blood boil. I kicked myself in the butt, later on. It was a waste of time and was of no benefit to anyone. I have much better things to do with my time than to waste it by writing nasty-grams to someone who probably won&#8217;t give 2 hoots about what I have to say anyway.

Okay, I&#8217;m starting to ramble. I&#8217;m still working on my morning coffee, so my thoughts are not all together yet. To everyone, but especially you, CM, I wish you a day of tranquility and peaceful thoughts. I&#8217;m really sorry that you&#8217;ve been put in a defense/offense position. You all have so much to contribute, when the combativeness is put away.

OB1

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