I think what is difficult for most BS's to understand, is that the affair isn't about the BS.
The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. Why expect a connection when the two affair partner's part ways?
I can see where it would make some feel better, to receive an apology, yet it is a high expectation, but not for reasons of selfishness or intent to hurt.
The expectation of an apology from the OP could be measured as selfish on the part of the BS in that the BS does not see the OP as a thinking, feeling, loving person. Just as the OP lacks a connection to the BS as a real person in many instances.
I think it is 2 people hurting from their own experience of the affair and can see only their own pain.

CM

Matthew,
I dont know that I know your story well enough to answer that. I'm getting the feeling that she was some kind of counselor or something. Maybe when she's ready shell make her apology.

I'll say this. I strongly believe that we choose our lives. MM, OP and WS. Maybe we cant choose what happens to us but we certainly chosse how we deal with it.

I chose MM so I really didn't have room to sit around and cry about much of anythign that happened between us. He chose his W so I was not trying to hear all the "she done we wrong" 's . He kept saying "you know what she did!" And i'd calmly reply "and you stayed".

AFter his wife found out about his many affairs she chose to remain in the relationship and apparently didn't demand to be treated honorably. So while I take responsibility for my part in what I chose, i'm not the one to go kiss up to the wife.

Ok, i'm ranting now.

My honey's on the phone.

gotta run.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think what is difficult for most BS's to understand, is that the affair isn't about the BS.
The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I think that's the main offense (on both ws and ow/om' part), not thinking of all involved.

Your're right though CM, this is the disconnect for most bs/xop. The way I see it, the affair is very much about the bs and ws's relationship, or lack thereof. It's within the lies that the ws tells that the falsehood of 'the bs is not a part of the equation' propigates.

KS,
No, she wasn't a counselor. I was just holding her to the standard of being 'each other's keeper'. Deep down, I feel like we have a responsibility to one another, you know, to help each other from jumping out of the frying pan into the fire. Even if it means we don't get what we want.
Your're right though, in due time she'll come around.

Sorry, C Miranda, I don't accept that with the A, it is never about the BS. When two people not married decide to have a relationship when one or more is married, it is always about the BS. The OW in my case knew from outset my H was married, and he never told her otherwise. He knew he was married. He thought he could have A and not hurt me.What OW thought I have no idea, but I know he tried to block me out of picture to follow his whims. I suspect so too did the OW.
But, when she came into my home, and my bed, you cannot make me believe she wasn't thinking of me. When she saw my stuff in my house and my wedding photos in my bedroom, I think what she did then was despicable-and so too my H.

Think of it this way.When someone murders someone, the survivors always gets a change to tell judge how the crime affected them. No different than a rape.When you do something to someone who is in a relationship or a member of a family, you hurt those people as well, just as if you had done the original deed to them.

I see it no differently from the A angle. THe BS and OP both are culpable for the pain wrought to the family and especially the BS.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by BINthereDUNthat:
[QB][QUOTE]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">IMO YES... OW's "own pain" being: single parenting & the shame that goes with it, (if they are willing to admit it); letting down family--expectations & such; financial struggles even with CS...

I just have to make a comment here - I am a single parent - and don't have any sense of shame whatsoever. I didn't take the easy way out - I took the most difficult road to travel. And the most rewarding, IMO. I own my own home - bought on my own, and probably struggle week-to-week just as much as anyone else does, but I'm certainly not destitute.

I apologized to xMM's W about 4 1/2-5 years ago, after she found out, and offered to answer any questions that she may have - I said that as much as I knew that he'd lied to me, I was sure he'd lied to her even more. She was still pretty angry (understandably) and had some pretty nasty things to say about me and my son. The result? No questions were answered. If I could apologize now, I would - and I'd probably be more sincere about it, but after this long - I'm not going to open any wounds. I just let it go.

Yes, I definitely believe that as a professing Christian we all have a responsibility to uphold our vows to God and be concerned about what concerns God: lost souls... I DO believe I failed God and myself and my Christian vows--to love and serve God by getting into adultery. But you know? At that time, I was lost myself. I thought I was a Christian and when I accepted Christ, I believed that I had made him Lord of my life, but if it was so easy for me to forget my vows to Him, it makes me wonder if I was really saved?

Part of it, I believe also, was the fact that when I first became a Christian, I was very judgmental and would be asking questions like "how could they ...?" and you can fill in the blanks... So that scripture was fulfilled in my life--the one about removing a splinter out of someone's eye when there is a post in my own? Pointing a finger when I have 3 pointing back at me?

I think that it was definitely a defining moment in my life--getting pregnant by a MM--as well as gaining life experience so I never ever have to ever ask those types of dangerous questions again. Judge not...

Nobody is asking for xOW to go around kissing anybody's butt, just being considerate of other's lives since every action and decision we choose affects others' lives--whether we realize it or not.

I know that my actions did nothing to draw the MM closer to God, for that I am terribly guilty. That is satan's plan for destroying all lives. He's the real enemy. But preaching aside, I think it would mean a lot to BS's who actually want apologies from xOW, to get them. However, if the xOW is still trying to sneak around the BS and conniving with the WS who doesn't want them anymore, I think no contact at all is best. OC suffers but the marriage gets stronger. xOW made these choices for their children, not the BS.

btdt,

You are so right, he IS the real enemy. I'm trying my best not to allow him to use us in this situation (the visitation process is beginning to get ugly), but it's so tempting. Looking back, I'm not sure our actions are drawing her to God either.

When does it STOP????

Well,
I've suggested to my H that we all go to mediation and lay all of this mess out on the table. We've decided to be a part of lil' mam's life and are thinking about shared custody. The only way it will work (without driving lil lady crazy) is if we get all of this on the table, deal with it and finally move on.
Pray for us BTDT. Pray for my H to agree with this decision....I've suggested to him in the past that he needs to apologize to her.
She's owes us both the same, but whether or not we'll get it remains to be seen.

Just like I said in a previous statement, imagine what a release it would be for all offenders to be able to say I'm sorry.

Just curious, before you forgive yourself for something, don't you have to seek the forgiveness of the person(s) you offended? This q is based on something I think KS mentioned. MM

AHHHHH TexasGirl...... apologize indeed...

No, I don't want an apology from ow. My H's is all I needed.

Ow's actions to this day both annoy and repulse H and I.

We had a letter sent to her by local prosecutor, so NOW she does things that we can't prove in a court of law.

What? WELL..... We get announcements from childrens photography studios letting us know of specials. Whose name is on them? Ow's first name...my last name. Gentle reminder she's still around. No mistake who signs us up either with her first name spelled exactly as she spells it.

Other annoying things.... pulling into parking lot of H's office and D-R-A-M-A-T-I-C-A-L-L-Y getting out and letting oc run in front of office window as she retrieves him, then walking into beauty shop next door for about 2 minutes and leaving the way she came. Never when H is there though.

So I guess I would never expect an apology huh?

Oh well, we're selling our home and moving with the office! Putting office in our new home.

All this does is make my H sick and wonder why he was ever with someone who portrayed herself as sweet, when the sweet one was ME all along....

God does uncover all evil, we are lucky if it happens in our lifetime.

BTW Ow's H recently divorced her. Now she has 4 kids and no dad to any as x-H is far away. Due to shame he felt staying here. (we have friends who tell me the scoop as their D lives in same city as ow's x-H). AND SHE STILL PINES FOR H! Sheese!

BTDT, thanks again for your very wonderful thoughts.

love
Debi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Katie Scarlett:
[QB]

AFter his wife found out about his many affairs she chose to remain in the relationship and apparently didn't demand to be treated honorably.

=^^= Are you saying that those of us who stay with our husbands and remain in our marriages do not demand to be treated honorably?
Should I/we all be offended here?

So while I take responsibility for my part in what I chose, i'm not the one to go kiss up to the wife.

=^^= Back to honorablility...do you equate being honorable, just, dignified and smacking of integrity and morality to be something demeaning if you "kiss up" to someone you have wronged? I'm just talking common decency here....

Why am I feeling my blood pressure rising?



QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 04:25 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:
<strong> </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Why am I feeling my blood pressure rising?



QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"></strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip...breathe in...breathe out ...nice calming breaths...

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by CMiranda:
<strong>I think what is difficult for most BS's to understand, is that the affair isn't about the BS.

=^^= Au contraire, Mon Ami...it is every bit about the BS as it is the two infidels. Almost all OW's in connection to any of us on this site, have been the prime target of bitter and resentful OW's that did not get the H away from the BS. In my particluar case, my husband's XOW spent the better part of their fling talking about me, our marriage and jealous of our history. I guess she was jealous of our travels, that we ran a business together, that we raised kids together...there was a lot of heartburn and preoccupation on her part. I KNOW OW's are often obsessed with wife and even hate her and malign her even when the BS doesn't even know there is an affair going on or that the OW exists.

The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. Why expect a connection when the two affair partner's part ways?

=^^= If not, then she should and if she doesn't, she is completely selfish. Maybe they (OW's) do not "identify" with the BS, but they are surely in competition with her even if she (BS) doesn't know the OW exists. Just the fact that the OW is sneaking around, knowingly doing something completely selfish and immoral and destroying the most beloved thing in a BS's life, her marraige and family, is grounds for a big, huge, fat, gooey apology...even if the BS never gets one...she certainly deserves it and more on any and all levels.

I can see where it would make some feel better, to receive an apology

=^^= Well, I did get an apology...and three months later she slapped me with a phony Restraining Order saying I said and did things I never did. So, I'll pass on the apology, thank you.

The expectation of an apology from the OP could be measured as selfish on the part of the BS in that the BS does not see the OP as a thinking, feeling, loving person. Just as the OP lacks a connection to the BS as a real person in many instances.

=^^= Excuse me?! Excuse me?! The BS is selfish??? Hahahaha. The BS is too damaged and hurt by the OW to think of the OW as having "feelings" for anyone but themselves, and perhaps the BS's H. Since the OW doesn't see BS as thinking, feeling and loving, you ask too, too much, CM, to expect it of us with NOTHING in return. As for seeing the OW as "loving", well, as long as she keeps those loving feelings in the appropriate realm of single guys, that's fine. As for seeing the OW as a "thinking" person...how could she ever see this destroyer as a "thinking" person when it is obvious this woman had no thought of anyone but herself? Who owes WHO an apology.

And WHY should BS have any connection to the OW as a "real" person when just the thought of them and what they have done to the BS's life and to her marriage, and to her family and to her life, stealing from her the sexual exclusivity in her marriage, stealing from her supreme right to be the only mother of her husband's children and sentencing her to a life of financial hardship is amazing to me. How can you expect the same consideration from BS's? What is a BS supposed to apologize to you for? Staying in her marriage? Loving her husband? Not wanting to pay CS to the OW for the privilege of waltzing in and getting herself knocked up and extorting huge chunks of money out of her pocket for a couple of decades???? C'mon, CM...THINK!

CM</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Catnip =^^=

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 04:53 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

No apologies from the ow she had the attitude much like happy girls ow. If she ever does I would feel much better about her.

When I did talk to her couple years ago she had the attitude like I was in the wrong for staying. Like I took something from her. I don’t think Ill ever understand how she thinks getting boinked three times by someone makes you the cats meow . I believe her plans really backfired. I really think she thought her getting pregnant would make my h run to her.

She may have a different state of mind now that it’s been over 3yrs and he has had nothing to do with her or her child. I really don’t think so though she uses the child support office to try to cause problems with us. Which that doesn’t work for her anymore either since h has no income the friend of the court has nothing to meddle in. The support is still the same and they leave us alone as long as I keep the money sent in once a month. So I’m glad to say it worked for us me having my own business and h being unemployed.

When I questioned her once about how she could bring a child into this world under such disgusting circumstances. Her reply was I guess I f***** up. So I guess that’s as good as it gets. If she raises him to be a good human being than that’s enough for me. We will see when he comes knocking at the door if she has done right by him.

Jenny I m not sure if you where asking if our h apologized to ow. My h feels she is pretty low and that she had set a trap to try to get him to leave me and make a home for her by not taking the pill and allowing a pregnancy. He also has a problem with her running around with an incurable std and not informing her partners first. Believe it or not he has a problem with women that go around having sex with someone that knows full well they are already taken. I find that strange sense he was no better then her. I haven’t figured that one out yet. So I would say no he would never apologize to her.

I think he will apologies to the boy for the choices his mother made and make it clear to him that she made all the choices to raise him without a father. That is if she never finds a man that can be the boy’s father. He still has hope that she will do this for her son now that she sees that he will never be involved. That he had made it clear to her he wanted no part in having a family with her before and after the fact but she had different plans.
With love flowerseed

Hey Flowerseed, I wanted to say I'm happy for your and H's business. Betcha you have been real busy. Hope you haven't had any more episodes like the funny one you wrote me about last year! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Catnip, as usual your claws come out when you try to explain BS side of things. The first and foremost I agree with is it all happened behind our backs while we knew nothing....only our H's were acting strange! Then....bang! The fiber of everything we thought was ours has been forever tainted by H and ow's roll in the hay...so to speak. (mine didn't use hay, but he should have because of her assinine ways.)

BTW he used the back seat of her car....in parking lots.... ahem...not a good thing for a "lasting relationship"

So carnal knowledge surely helps to prescind.

Don't you think?

Apology? Surely you jest...

And sometimes you have to taste porkchops to realize you really do love filet mignon! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

Not me of course because my diet never varies....Thank God! I know what I like...even when I wasn't sure why I liked it anymore....

love
Debi

<small>[ November 19, 2002, 06:59 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

CM said: "The OP rarely connects in any way to the lover's spouse. Why expect a connection when the two affair partner's part ways?"

I REPEAT:
KS, TG basically answered your question when she asked:

"Why can't the OW also express her responsibility and her sorrow for the pain inflicted upon the wife?"

Also, in cases where the OW knew the W, (or must deal with W in sharing OC!), does familiarity, even "friendship" NOT make a difference?
-------------------------------------

*My* XOW was at my home about every-other day during the A., pretending to be my friend, sharing childcare, and I could go on and on. While the wife and the XOP knowing each other is probably less than 50%, it is NOT RARE. Some members knew the Other Person as a "friend", relative, coworker, etc.

And even if they did not know each other prior to the affair, they may have to interact after the OC becomes known....

VISITATION, when it happens, should be a family event. How can the 2 sides interact with so much pain outstanding??

Adultery is wrong. Period. The only case I can think of in which the adulterers do not really owe the spouse(s) an apology is when the OP genuinely did not know the spouse was married--they were lied to.

That said, has my H apologized to XOW's xH? No. Do I think he should have? Yes. Do I think he should bring it up 4y later? Probably not.

Whew!!! It looks like I definitely rattled a few cages. I expect responses, but not to this extent.

I guess what prompted this was, the OW, especially one with an OC, seems to expect to be treated on the same level as the wife and the marital family. Yet, she, in most cases, refuses to accept that she might have done something wrong. The implication to me being that she wants to have her cake and eat it too, even thought it may be only half a cake, so to speak.
She sleeps with another woman's husband, has the temerity to present him with an out of wedlock child and expects him to play daddy to a child outside of his marriage and probably he did not plan on conceiving. Most men engage in affairs as an escape from a problem they have not addressed. This problem is one that is personal to them and not necessarily problematic within the marriage. My own H's problem was low self-esteem and reaching a point in his career where he seemed to be dead-ending. Rather than address his problems or concerns to me he succumbed to the lure of a much younger woman who made him feel young and irresponsible. He was running away from responsibilities. She just presented him with another, and almost cost him his marriage
Now, I don't care if she apolized to him, that is between them. Yet when I talked to her, she refused to accept the fact that she was as responsible as he was for her condition and their child. She would not to accept that he would not get involved with their child. She expected him to be daddy to their child like he is to our children. She made no attempt to be conciliatory to me and at that time I held all of the cards. He was staying with me, our children and wanted nothing more to do with her.
Does anyone else feel that often the OW feels she is entitled to something for sleeping with our H's? Somehow she is owed something and the wife is a nonentity? Like "Poor thing, he only stayed with you because he felt sorry for you and he knew he would lose his children?"
I know I feared that at first, but my H has expended so much energy to show me that his affair was such a MISTAKE and one he wishes he could undo. He is with me because he CHOSE me over her. He wanted me, not her. And before another OW attacks me and says I am deluding myself, don't bother. It has been 9 years since he walked that path. If he had wanted to leave either for her or because he didn't love me, he could have at anytime. He didn't.
Before, any of the OW who post here that usually contribute in a favorable manner get their feelings hurt or feel attacked, please don't feel that way. This is not meant as an attack on you all. This was just a thought that has been rattling around in my head and heart for a while.
If you look at how long I have been here you will see how long it has been.
Please respond one and all, just keep it civil.

Thank you and I love you all,
TG
PS Catnip, I love it when you come on strong. That is one of your strengths.

This is actually something om's wife and I discussed at great length, before she became involved with my daughter. I wrote and told her how sorry I was and asked that she forgive me, It was not an easy thing to do. , but I felt this woman would soon be with my child and I needed to make some sort of amends so we could work to gether for the good of us all. I could not have a woman who had so much hate for me[although deserving] be around my child, it was imperative that we come to an understanding. she and I have worked our butts off trying to do that. Hasnt been easy for either of us.. The only one totally comfortable with it is om. She and I spoke many times, and I tried hard to answer any questions she had, with out being rude or too personal, if it was something I didnt want to upset her, I just told her, I thought that should be between her and OM.

She has told me that was the only way she was even able to begin to forgive me and move on.. She also has expressed great concern over the fact that her husband refused to apologize to mine. She even wrote my husband and told him this. OM's ego however will not let him say the words I am sorry.
I dont think my husband wanted to hear what he had to say any way.. but in time they have managed to come to some sort of communication skills and they do this by emersing themselves in business, and om, makes sure he refers to my husband as daddy when ever they are both together. It is a little weird seeing them stand around discussing work, but better than fighting I suppose. My husband does not like OM, and yes he knew him before the A. But he doesnt hate him either. indifferent , maybe thats a good word for it. I dont know.

While OM and OW are not deserving of any ones sympathy, these are all still people, and they have hearts and feelings, and yes, they too hurt.

Maybe they have no right I dont know, But when your heart is breaking, most are not thinking at that moment about the bs.

I think when the WS tells the other person for so long, all the bad stuff about the BS, Op starts to believe it all and doesnt spend time worrying over the BS any longer.

No I cant say for all those one night stands out there, I dont have a clue. I would guess there are no feelings on either part how could there be. And why would you want a stranger help raise your child , it would seem very strange to even want contact in that case, would scare me to death.
I had a hard enough time letting om and his wife have contact. I knew she would be safe with them. At first his wife wanted nothing to do with baby, he had convinced her he wanted to be with the baby, she had decided to sit on the side, till she saw her..

I for one felt I owed her an apology, I spent almost as many years as she had been married to him. I spent more hours out of every day with him than she did. I basically took years out of her marriage, and she has a right to hate me.. so this we all agree on. I also think it has taken great courage and love on her part to accept my child and try so hard to love her.

We still would both rather eat dirt than spend he day with each other, although om would like us to be great friends, WE do not want to be and I am quite sure both us us think he is crazy to try and make that happen.

I know I retired from this site, must be addictive or something <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I think I got lost I though someone was asking if h apologized to ow there was no om in our case she was single living of whoever she could sponge off until she got her sperm donation and was able to qualify for low income housing.

Gem things are starting to slow down we are doing great. Just got me a brand new computer you will have to email me so I have your address again. No more incidents we have a job trailer now so I don’t have them problems anymore <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> .

You think a back seat is bad try to picture the romance of conceiving a child in a waste water treatment plant <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" /> . Kind of fitting for this type of situation don’t ya think.

Texas (Does anyone else feel that often the OW feels she is entitled to something for sleeping with our H's?)
Yeah I get that impression .I think she believes because he strayed with her she had something special <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> . He is a devoted father to our child and she knew this.
I don’t know if it has ever sunk in to her little mind that she was used for a few quick minutes. My h was quit insecure in our relationship at the time and used her to get back at me for making him feel so insecure.
Thank goodness he has learned to talk about his feelings instead of going about things the way he used to.
With love flowerseed

my trashy OW didn't bother apologizing for sleeping with my H.

She didn't apologize for trying to get pregnant (even when she admitted trying).

She didn't apologize for soliciting him for sex many times after he told her he was staying and rebuilding our marriage.

She didn't apologize for using every excuse in the book to get him over there (during contact) to falicitate her sexual advances.

She didn't even have the decency to apologize after DNA proved my H wasn't the father.

Bottom line ... the woman has no remorse for what she's done to my family or hers. I guess that's obvious when she has FOUR kids out of wedlock.

My OW is pure scum and has not remorse whatsoever.

Am I pissy about it ... yes ... and probably always will be when it comes to her.

Z.

Well I say good for everyone who can be a proud single woman knocked up out of wedlock and raising a kid without a dad. Hold your head up high! Where I come from, it's a shame. Where I come from adultery is a shameful act. I'm not saying go around living life like you are less than or unworthy of forgiveness from God, yourself, and others--if possible, I'm just submitting that "OW pain" would probably fall somewhere in that category. Of course, it doesn't apply to every situation. Did that strike a nerve??? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> Didn't mean to...

Oh well... I'm not ashamed of my OC. I'm very proud of all my kids. They have all risen above their individual challenges and are very tough people. God gave them all exactly what they need in this life. I'm not ashamed of my decision to keep and raise my OC alone because you're right, you do have to develop thick skin to all the strong opinions flying around you in this tough situation. That kinda goes without saying...

Nevertheless, I will pray for your situation Matthew. God sees your heart and He knows what you need. Sometimes we have to simply trust God with the decisions our H's make esp. when/if we don't agree. That's where submission comes in. Not so much submission to the H, but submission to God's love for us. He sees. He knows. He cares. He will help.

From the MB standpoint, there are three people who are involved in Surviving An Affair: OP, WS, and BS.

I don't know if it is always possible to get the apologies we need from those who have wronged us. That's where prayer comes in. That's where healing from above comes in. All the apologies in the WORLD will never right the willful wrongs done to the BS or the OC. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Frown]" src="images/icons/frown.gif" />

You said a mouthful btdt,

"All the apologies in the WORLD will never right the willful wrongs done to the BS or the OC."