I can literally feel what you are saying about him making this promise and that promise. Funny thing, you and I are here talking about this issue and where are the men <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> My H is outside right now, carving a pumpkin with youngest daughter. Mr. Wonderful huh? Yours is at home with his wife. Neither are on here wondering what they have done or what they should do now. Must be a female thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have no doubt that men say these things to OW. It falls into the old "tell her what she wants to hear" Hey, they try and pull this on the wife after dday too. We ask and they sugarcoat and their math skills leave them suddenly. How many times? "once" When busted, how many months? One. Busted more, they just tell us what they think we want to hear; and that is some pathetic little story, which basically makes no sense.

We, in our shock and crushed mode, believe them....at first. At some point in time, our thought process starts functioning again we cut up his story like shredded cabbage at a cole-slaw counter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We slice and dice and really get to the bottom of it all. We are capable of extreme memory, a story uttered months ago is remembered in word for word detail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> When H denies something, we reach into our photographic memory of every word said, and bring it up. Finally, at some point, the hapless man, seeing his defeat finally comes out with the whole truth. This is a process and it doesn't take a day or week to get through. They are trying to "tell us what we want to hear" But once alerted, we can smell a lie a mile away at that point. So, we are all fooled.

Your XMM apparently liked the attention and when push came to shove, hell is breaking loose had to face up to what bullcrap he has been spreading. You are the one caught in the crosshairs. He stayed with her. You may think she is calling all the shots, but it isn't like that. She is letting him know exactly what she will or will not accept, at this point. If he does not like it, he can hit the road. Most BW that I know are willing to work it out, but only if it is honest. So that is where he is at. He is trying to rebuild at home.


You are probably 100% correct that they said they would have contact. At one point, she was probably numb and he may have put it to her at a time where she went along with it. Now she is probably thinking again and has said, no. She has realized that it is just to much for her. Now he has that to deal with. Her dday hurt has turned into anger and the hurt is seeping out. They have discussed your child, believe me, they have. If he wanted contact, and she didn't, they had to come to an agreement. I'm sure it was not as simple as "oc or me" We are all a bit more deep then that. It goes far far deeper. Goes back to the day the met, married,etc. They go through it all and come up with a decision together.

What you see as ignoring you is probably not really ignoring. Once the attorney is in place they all will say "do not discuss anything with the other party." That is a must. So, you must not really take that personally. We women really take things personally don't we?


What he was saying during the affair, and even right up to the birth and after was what made it the easiest for him, at that time. He was still avoiding the harsh reality of all that has transpired. And they say the BW lives in denial? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

So, here you are. With a daughter. Hey, you and I are both mothers here, so lets be honest. You have a baby. How much sweeter is life then when you hold her fresh bathed body, smelling like Johnsons Baby Lotion, and you are just staring at her? You are lucky. I adore babies. Mine are grown up pretty much, it goes by fast. Enjoy her.

Let the laywers handle the details. Enjoy the baby. If he is being difficult, that is what you pay the laywer for. Not only that, but it is in everybody's best interst to have this taken care of properly, so you both did the best thing by hiring representation. Best way to move on, for everyone legally, no matter what the outcome is.

Your life will go on. Your daughter will grow up, and fast. You will have times when you will be bitter and angry. So will he. You will lash out at him, he will lash back, or visa-versa. You will go to school plays, and Holiday Programs. Your whole life will continue. Except you have this child with a man, who is married to another. You will be pissed and hurt that her father is not with her. He will be pissed off everytime he writes the check. Neither of you are mad at the child, heck, nobody is. You are mad at yourselves for causing such havoc in not only your own lives, but others.

So, forgive yourself, as he needs to forgive himself. Let the laywers handle the details and live. Enjoy your life, your children, your friends. Like I say to BW, live, love and have fun. You can't change what has happened. You can't force him to leave her. He and his wife can't erase the fact that there is an oc. You WILL get into tiffs over the years about this. But it will not be a daily deal. Heck, you can go years without any thought at all to them, and them to you. Then someday, something comes up and BAAAM, you are back in each others face. He will be angry cause he can't believe what a mistake he made. His wife will be ticked cause it will be a reminder. You are going to be angry because he is not a father to your child. Then calm will prevail for a while again.

Everyones lives are altered and we all have to do and fight for what we want out of it.

thank you. very much. I'm going to keep this. thank you.

LynnG,
Thank you. You said it all so well. And I agree she probably did say okay to contact at some point, I did. As soon as I found out I said o.k., this is what we are going to do......
But not even two weeks later I was so mad and ashamed and crushed, I told him hell no and if he wanted to be with the oc he could leave. It had nothing to do w/ the baby. I didn't want the baby to be hurt. then..... It is amazing what anger can do. How it can change you from being a loving person into a rot in hell person. I have never wanted anything for the oc, but to be blessed of God I have prayed many times for him. I just don't want the interference the heartach or the responsibility of raising another womans child. We had never been married before we have no previous children, so its not like I got in the boat knowing what to expect. Then the kids are raised different and if the oc gets away with something that your children would be disciplined for you have that whole problem. I mean the list just goes on and on. And how about Christmas are we as the BS supposed to get the oc the same amount of stuff we get our kids? You have to see that I am simplifying, but you get my point. All of this stuff is expected of the BS but is the ow going to go out of her way to make sure my kids have what they need. Thats a big fat NO.
I want to be helped with my seething anger and my ZEAL For all things anti-oc, its just hard.
I am telling you the if I were to raise the oc it would be different. I feel like the ow only wants the child to remain a thorn in my side. I am sure she is a good mom <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" /> and I am sure she cares about her child just as much as I care about mine, but to me she had a choice as well as I did she could have chosen an easier path. She could have chosen to be a woman about it and come to me.

QUESTION: WHY DOES THE OW GO ALONG WITH NOT TELLING THE WIFE? THAT MAKES ABSOLUTLY NO SENSE. I MEAN IF I BELIEVED THAT I WAS GOING TO MARRY A MAN AND RAISE A FAMILY I WOULD BE VERY ANGRY ABOUT HIM NOT WANTING HIS WIFE TO KNOW. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

I KNOW IT SOUNDS BAD, BUT I CAN KIND OF UNDERSTAND THE THOUGHT PROCESS BEHIND A ONE NIGHT STAND, BUT A WHOLE OTHER RELATIONSHIP MAKES ABSOLUTLY NO SENSE. WHY NOT JUST DIVORCE AND DATE? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Bran...I'm not sure I can help you but I will answer your questions...until I feel that they would be detrimental to this board. I will however answer anything you want off board, either in a pm or e-mail...I just don't want to hurt anyone here unncecessarily...ok?

Are you asking me why I didn't tell her I was pregnant, or why I didn't tell her about the relationship? I'll answer the first one...

Because xMM told me he was going to leave her and make a life with me and he wanted to wait until school was out for the year to tell his family, so it wouldn't affect his kids at school. Now I need to say I was not happy about this because I would have been 6 months pregnant by that time. He asked me to keep it a secret from my daughter and my xH too, which would have been hard. He was afraid my ex would tell his wife (he already tried to tell her about the affair). He actually threatened me if my ex were to be the one to tell her I would regret it. I also did not want to wait, I was never ashamed that I was having a baby, regardless of the circumstances. I loved this child instantly. I no longer wanted to hide, and had not be into the secret game in a long time. We were in a long distance relationship so I was not used to "hiding" our relationship. All of my friends knew, most of my family and even my ex. My d-day was YEARS ago. I came completely clean with my ex...after reading here and realizing the not knowing was the worst.

I don't pretend to agree with the way xMM wanted to handle things but my loyalty was to him, as the man I loved. And it was his place to do the telling. Secrets are not my fortee...I believe I lasted 2 weeks before spilling the beans about my own affair. Two killer weeks for me. Believe it or not I am a brutally honest person. I have never lied to his wife, I just don't say anything when she calls me...but had she ever asked me a direct question, I would have told her the truth, and xMM knows it.

I just had to pop in to say WOW. LynnG your post was so eloquent. Perfectly said. You totally captured the feelings and thoughts of the OW and truly depicted what we experience with the WS right after d-day.

Amazing, thank you,
Z.

<small>[ December 21, 2003, 07:34 PM: Message edited by: twilight ]</small>

Twilight, also known as NorthernGirl, right?

Thanks for asking. ZebraBaby is what many of the children called me when I was growing up. You see, my mother is polish (white) and my father is african american (black). Being biracial I was often given labels, some nicer than others.

My response to those that called me that were: I have the best of both worlds. Which I did and still do.

ZebraBaby has always been close to my heart. And over 10 years ago an employee of mine gave me a ceramic zebra with a Christmas wreth around the neck for a present. It became the spark that began my zebra collection. To date I have hundreds of items that are zebra. I have everthing like slippers, pictures, stuffed animals, boxes, wooden masks, sheets, duvets, snow balls, pens, and much much more. An entire room in my home is decorated with my treasures.

Again thanks for asking.
Z.

yes, I'm ng on the other board. Phew, for a moment there your handle scared me. A long time ago I posted as Zebra on gloryb...for much different reasons. Thanks for answering!

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by LynnG:
<strong> I can literally feel what you are saying about him making this promise and that promise. Funny thing, you and I are here talking about this issue and where are the men <img border="0" title="" alt="[Mad]" src="images/icons/mad.gif" /> My H is outside right now, carving a pumpkin with youngest daughter. Mr. Wonderful huh? Yours is at home with his wife. Neither are on here wondering what they have done or what they should do now. Must be a female thing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

I have no doubt that men say these things to OW. It falls into the old "tell her what she wants to hear" Hey, they try and pull this on the wife after dday too. We ask and they sugarcoat and their math skills leave them suddenly. How many times? "once" When busted, how many months? One. Busted more, they just tell us what they think we want to hear; and that is some pathetic little story, which basically makes no sense.


True, true, LynnG. That's when I told my H "Don't insult my intelligence. There is no need to lie any more"


We, in our shock and crushed mode, believe them....at first. At some point in time, our thought process starts functioning again we cut up his story like shredded cabbage at a cole-slaw counter. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> We slice and dice and really get to the bottom of it all. We are capable of extreme memory, a story uttered months ago is remembered in word for word detail. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Cool]" src="images/icons/cool.gif" /> When H denies something, we reach into our photographic memory of every word said, and bring it up. Finally, at some point, the hapless man, seeing his defeat finally comes out with the whole truth.


Absoloutley what happens over many months of trying to sort things through. What a relief when the truth finally flows....confession is good for the soul you know. I remember saying "isn't that better than having any more secrets?" It's a feeling you recogonize that the truth is finally being told.


This is a process and it doesn't take a day or week to get through. They are trying to "tell us what we want to hear" But once alerted, we can smell a lie a mile away at that point. So, we are all fooled.

Your XMM apparently liked the attention and when push came to shove, hell is breaking loose had to face up to what bullcrap he has been spreading. You are the one caught in the crosshairs. He stayed with her. You may think she is calling all the shots, but it isn't like that. She is letting him know exactly what she will or will not accept, at this point. If he does not like it, he can hit the road. Most BW that I know are willing to work it out, but only if it is honest. So that is where he is at. He is trying to rebuild at home.

Yes again, LynnG. What ever makes someone think that Ws who did things for his/herself for such a long time all of a sudden does whatever W wants is missing the boat for sure. It is totally what one can or cannot live with. If W cannot tolerate visits but H is adament, there is little else to do but step out of the picture and allow that process to happen.


You are probably 100% correct that they said they would have contact. At one point, she was probably numb and he may have put it to her at a time where she went along with it. Now she is probably thinking again and has said, no. She has realized that it is just to much for her. Now he has that to deal with. Her dday hurt has turned into anger and the hurt is seeping out.


Yup, like when my H returned home after planB, and all of a sudden had me go to our parish in front of our former, no longer a priest, and call ow to set up first visit....after all I did and she still gave us problems and disrespected our marriage.."my interference" was something she could not tolerate... I finally had it and came to in a sense and offered H a divorce. Felt it necessary for him to see oc and for my peace of mind. To my surprise H wouldn't hear of that. We are still married and doing well.


They have discussed your child, believe me, they have. If he wanted contact, and she didn't, they had to come to an agreement. I'm sure it was not as simple as "oc or me" We are all a bit more deep then that. It goes far far deeper. Goes back to the day the met, married,etc. They go through it all and come up with a decision together.

Discussions out the wazoo!!!!!

What you see as ignoring you is probably not really ignoring. Once the attorney is in place they all will say "do not discuss anything with the other party." That is a must. So, you must not really take that personally. We women really take things personally don't we?


What he was saying during the affair, and even right up to the birth and after was what made it the easiest for him, at that time. He was still avoiding the harsh reality of all that has transpired. And they say the BW lives in denial? <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

Yes, H was in the fog heavy then and so frightened I'd leave him....

So, here you are. With a daughter. Hey, you and I are both mothers here, so lets be honest. You have a baby. How much sweeter is life then when you hold her fresh bathed body, smelling like Johnsons Baby Lotion, and you are just staring at her? You are lucky. I adore babies. Mine are grown up pretty much, it goes by fast. Enjoy her.

Enjoy like there is no tomorrow, because there may not be.....


Let the laywers handle the details. Enjoy the baby. If he is being difficult, that is what you pay the laywer for. Not only that, but it is in everybody's best interst to have this taken care of properly, so you both did the best thing by hiring representation. Best way to move on, for everyone legally, no matter what the outcome is.

AMEN!!!!!


Your life will go on. Your daughter will grow up, and fast. You will have times when you will be bitter and angry. So will he. You will lash out at him, he will lash back, or visa-versa. You will go to school plays, and Holiday Programs. Your whole life will continue. Except you have this child with a man, who is married to another. You will be pissed and hurt that her father is not with her. He will be pissed off everytime he writes the check. Neither of you are mad at the child, heck, nobody is. You are mad at yourselves for causing such havoc in not only your own lives, but others.

So, forgive yourself, as he needs to forgive himself. Let the laywers handle the details and live. Enjoy your life, your children, your friends. Like I say to BW, live, love and have fun. You can't change what has happened. You can't force him to leave her. He and his wife can't erase the fact that there is an oc. You WILL get into tiffs over the years about this. But it will not be a daily deal. Heck, you can go years without any thought at all to them, and them to you. Then someday, something comes up and BAAAM, you are back in each others face. He will be angry cause he can't believe what a mistake he made. His wife will be ticked cause it will be a reminder. You are going to be angry because he is not a father to your child. Then calm will prevail for a while again.

Everyones lives are altered and we all have to do and fight for what we want out of it. </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I wish more of the ladies here in this situation would come around and tell it like it is from D-day on. The truth needs to be shared so ow can see where the other side is coming from.
love, Debi
ps thanks LynnG!!!!!

Your welcome!!

When I first came here, I was stunned at the situations I saw. BW hurting and afraid is understandable. BW not doing anything to protect themselves and their children is unacceptable. And to add insult to injury, there were people on here allbut ramming their beliefs that the BW and her children HAD to accept the oc into their lives, HAD to treat this child as a member of thefamily, their wishes be dammed. I about blew a fuse.

How utterly stupid is that? Why people think the only "adult" way is for the BW to accept the OC into her home and life is bizzare. First off, why is it not adult for the OW to take her oc, and the dollars she so eagerly seeks and move on? How is that any less "adult". I pondered the oc. Why is that baby more important then the other children involved? The Oc is just one of many victims of two selfish people.

Then I read where some BW were horrified that I had the audacity to stand up for myself and my familys future. They think the right thing is to have oc as part of their family, to heck with the feelings of anybody but the "innocent" oc. How lovely. Yet as I stated earlier, I know of situations where a BW raised an oc after the untimely deaths of the parents. She felt trapped by doing the "right" thing. She was bitter about it, as were her children.

The realities of the situation really, work best with no contact. Everybody moves on. This really seems to work the best. Everybody takes their piece of the hurt and moves on, oc included.

I feel that some women feel they are doing the right thing, but what is right? Them stuffing their feelings and accpeting? Why not say "no" I do not want that child in my life? What is wrong with the honesty in that statement? Does the BW not have a voice? USE IT. This is your life and your marriage. If you have needs, voice them. Discuss them. Sugar coating and being a doormat might smooth things over for the time being, but not in the long run.


I want these BW to know that you are heard, you are cared for and you can do something. FIGHT FOR YOUR LIFE. Don't let the OW call any shots at all in your family. If your husband and you want to see this child, make sure OW knows that means BOTH of you. Make it all contat through attorneys only. Some say that it is not easy to have a 3rd party involved. Why not? This situation is not easy anyway. Why not make it just the way you want it. If you don't want to see or talk to ow, but want to see oc, that is possible. Once again, make the XMM and his OW really feel what they have done. Our XOW is not allowed to phone our home for any reason whatsoever. All contact is to be through attorneys. Contrary to popular belief, the XMM is not requried to pay her legal fees. If XOW needs to contact us, it has to be through attorneys. She complains about this, to bad. She created this mess, she can live with it. I don't want to have to fuss with her, and so want the laywers to deal with it.

BW, you have been dealt a blow. Stand up, find your courage and fight for what you want. If you and your husband are planning on working through this, you do have a voice. If he is all scared of OW and her demands, and afraid you will leave etc. He is not thinking clearly. You need to be the strong one here. Get the attorney, protect family assets for yourself and your children. This buys time for marrige counseling and to decided what to do.

I just want all you to know you will be ok. And I do understand. I do care. I am here for you.

Man LynnG. I am sooo glad, relieved, over joyed to hear (read) you say these things. I wish I would have found this forum LAST year and we (my husband and I) would not be in the predicament we are in now (..."to be or not to be"...involved w/ OC)

Why do we feel such unecessary guilt and worry over OC, who is worrying over ours? NOT the OW that's for sure! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

Hi Lynn...I have a question. And just also want to say that I am agreeing with more everyday but that's another story.

If BW and xMM insist on doing everything through their attorney's, should they not be responsible for the fees? I'm not sure how this works, as I live in Canada, where you cannot request the other party pay the fees. My attorney has requested this so I am curious to know what your experience is.

LynnG thanks. Just being hit with this reality this morning I am so glad to read your post.

I DO worry about MY children. What on earth would they think, feel, etc. They are only 4 and 5 1/2. My 5 1/2 yr old is a smart cookie. She sees her friends parents having kids and wanted mommy and daddy to have a baby for her. Now and now the OW (whom my D knows) is going to have one. How on earth does she comprehend that this women is going to have her father's child but that her mommy and daddy are still married <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

And what about the quality of my children's life?? What about the expense of putting them in private school or college? Should they now have less because there is another child to care for?

My H and I purposely decided not to have more children for financial reasons (before the A) and tnow more recently because we did not think our llife could endure that added stress.

With this still being very fresh for me, I struggle with what is going on in my brain. At first I have no problem with the child in my home, then I think of all this other stuff. Then I fear that the birth will bring my H and OW closer. Although right now, it has pushed him further from her.

All I have wanted is OW OUT of OUR life. I turn around and she started working at my D's school, right down the road from our home. Everywhere I go, she is there and now the OC will be there too?? How much more do I have to take?

1. We are all responsible for our own legal fees to keep one side from frivolous use of attorney fees.


How much more can one take. Hmmm. If I were you, I would not have contact with her at all. I would be tracking her every contact to form a harrassment case if need be. You first need to hire an attorney, explain the whole situation and get cs set up for your children first. Then you really need to work this out with your husband. Since the pregnancy has pushed him away from her, he probably wishes she would just go away. If you both agree on no contact, you can let her know,through the attorney that you are choosing that. Your attorney will advise you on how to handle DNA, etc. as the law pertains to your state. Now for the kids. If that woman even looks in the direction of your children, you can get her for harrassment. Be on top of this.

Take the time to re-establish the foundation of the marriage, the treat this as a team problem. Take your time, but alway document and handle things legally.

How do you know this OW? Why would her baby even be near you and your children? I guess I have to find your story on here. How would your kids know she is pregnant? OOOOOOO.....if she is talking about the baby around your children,or to your children she can be slapped for harrassment!! You need to get to an attorney to see what your laws say.


One more thing. You have to remember that she will play the "innocent oc" card. Don't buy it. She is not worried about your "innocent children", she never was. So don't think about her and her problem. You husband is another deal. If he waivers and wants contact and you don't, then you have a problem. All the more reason to have had your children set up to gain family finaces first.

Just don't rush at all. You can work all this out. I will state this again. You will be happy again. You will love, laugh and live a wonderful life.

LynnG's typing to all newbies:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">One more thing. You have to remember that she will play the "innocent oc" card. Don't buy it. She is not worried about your "innocent children", she never was. So don't think about her and her problem. You husband is another deal. If he waivers and wants contact and you don't, then you have a problem. All the more reason to have had your children set up to gain family finaces first. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Your H may remain in a fog even if he's telling you he wants the marriage.

Once the baby arrives all emotions are running high. For everyone!

I highly recommend counseling with Steve Harley at that time.

In the mean time follow all LynnG's advice, especially if you have young children.

To all you newbies.....I am so sorry you have to be here. Take it a day at a time and read all you can from here!

Click my name and read my story... Happy endings do happen!!!

love
Debi

<small>[ November 05, 2003, 04:57 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

Taking care of thing up front and legally serves notice to the wayward spouse that you mean business. Not that you don't love them,or want to work this out. Consider it an insurance policy. Afterall, their actions have hardly been in the best interest of the marriage and children of the marriage. If the WS is offended at this action, so be it.

Counseling will help alot. Necessary. There are lots of bad counselors out there. That is why finding one that works for you is not as easy as picking up a phone. You need to interview them, just like you would interivew someone for a job. Pretty much exactly what you are doing. Calling the Harleys in the early months would be a wonderful idea. They have tons and tons of experience in this area. That experience will serve you well.

This issue of EMR and OC is not a black and white issue. Every single story is different, with dymanics individual to each person, each situation, each marriage, etc. The common fact is that lots of innocent people are hurt. To many WS and OW believe that once an OC is in the picture that everything changes. Not true at all. That child is important, no doubt. But not the only one who counts and certainly not the only one who will be affected. This is where the real world needs to be addressed. This is where a good, solid experienced therapist will help you. Don't ever listen to one who is not supportive of your wishes. If one is trying to talk you into something (such as contact, or quickly forgiving, etc) they are not listening. You need to be heard, understood and cared for. A counselor will hear all the facts, the story etc. They will gleam what you as an individual need, what your marriage needs, etc. One size does not fit all when it comes to therapy.

Call the Harleys. It is quite obvious they have seen and heard it all. Great place to start.