TheFeminineSide,

There is a BIG difference!! The oc was conceived out of an A. Lies and deceit were part of the this oc being born. When you blend children from another marriage you already are aware of their existence. You can deal with it better because you are aware of the situation before you marry your new spouse.

The oc should be loved and care for but to say it is the same as children from another marriage just isn't so. I wish it could be that easy but it isn't. The oc was born my two selfish people and they put this child in that situation. The oc is just as innocent as the bs and the children from that marriage.

It's one of those situations that we would like to make all parties (ow,oc,bs,mm) happy but an A changes all of that.

I want the oc in my situation to live a good life but it will not involve me. It might involve my children but right now thay don't want to meet her. If this was the child from a former marriage they would have been introduce properly not by the way you have a half-sister.

I hope you understand the difference.

<small>[ November 25, 2003, 01:49 PM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by catnip:


"For many, it is more an intellectual decision, well thought out as to whether or not contact will work, considering all the variables to each couples' particular set of circumstances. Contact decisions should never be made while in the flux of D-day emotionalism. "

Will work for who? The adults or the children?

=^^= Well, in order for it to work for the children, it has to have already been worked out for the adults. It's the "what comes first thing...the chicken or the egg". In order to provide a stable foundation for all involved, the marriage must have had time to recover. This often takes at least two years of focused, committed efforts of both spouses.

I don't see how contact could be harmful to a child as long as they are getting the love and attention too from their Dad.

=^^= No one said contact was harmful to a child. Where did you see that?

Seems it's the adults that are having the issues here.

=^^= Of course! Of course it is the adults who are having the issues...that's why we are all here. Because of the adults, what they have done, the cause and effect and how to resolve these issues for the good of everyone involved.

His children from his previous marriage are NOT products of betrayal. Their exsistence is not a source of angst and humiliation and heartache."

Again you are referring only to the adults feelings here, not the children. Whose feelings really count the most?

=^^= Well, actually, the Betrayed's feelings count the most here ...initially. Until she feels that her marriage is safe and secure and has recovered sufficiently, her home is not a good environment for an OC simply because unless she has healed sufficiently through recovery, there might be resentment issues to be addressed and leveled before any responsible adult would incorporate an OC...thus, making the feelings of the OC paramount via the Betrayed.
It has to start somewhere and the first place to start is to rebuild the marriage successfully enough so that an OC may be incorporated into the family while providing stability, love and care. It is far more complicated than your simplistic idealogies. I don't mean to be dismissive or demean you in any way, I am just trying to offer some understanding of the complexities involved here...that there is a process at work that need to run its course.

When are adults required to act like adults and do what is best for the children?

=^^= I think this is what I have been proposing all along. I'll try to make myself more clear.

It seems to me that a woman who is married and then her H betrays her and that betrayal produces a child, has to make the decision all over again to "marry" him again and with the decision factor in his responsibilties to the new child he has brought into this world.

=^^= That's true...but, it is a "forced" decision she never should have had to make. This was HER life, this was HER family, HER marriage and HER call, ultimately. It is up to the husband to work to rebuild the marriage and make her feel loved, safe and secure again. Once that is attained, she might feel benevolent enough to welcome OC into their lives. Much of the time, this is truly the case and I respect and admire these women enormously.

Just like a woman who chooses to marry a divorced man with children. It's a matter of choice at that point. The child will never go away. Or should the child be required to.

=^^= EXACTLY...that is the point I made in my previous post.

I see it no differently than a woman who chooses to marry a man who has children and then expects him to not see those children and to abandon them How is it any different?

=^^= Frankly, if a woman married a man pretending to accept his children from a previous marriage just to get a ring on her finger and then rejected the kids after the "I do's" then the new husband has an obligation to his children to have the new wife make a swift exit for being duplicitous. But we are talking calculating deception here. And thankfully, I don't know anyone who would do that to any of their stepchildren...except for MY stepmother who did that to me and my Dad after she married my Dad...but that's another story.

So you are saying that it all depends how a child comes to this world as to whether they "deserve" to not be abondoned by their father?

=^^= No, I did not say that. Please reread the paragragh. The OC is NOT abandoned by the father if they receive CS. Contact or NC is not related to "abandonment" unless your definition of abandonment requires the WS to abandon many for one. The BW and the WS have a lot of work to do to rebuild their marriage which takes a minimum of two years. Expecting bonding or a relationship before that healing has taken place is unrealistic for most. It is one of the consequences of the OP's behavior (and WS) that has caused the OC to be without a proactive, participating father figure, which is a horrible shame and the responsibility of both of the parents. But that does not mean the BW is required to "step aside" with her rack of kids to accomodate some stranger's desires simply because she intruded into her life unannounced.

That a man who is married has the MORAL obligation because of a certificate of marriage to the mother? But a man without a certificate is not morally obligated? Pretty interesting train of thought.

=^^= No one ever once said that the man "without a certifcate" is not morally obligated and I would appreciate it if you would stop putting words in my mouth or pushing your interpretation of what I said. I have been crystal clear. All I am saying is that the first obligation is to his wife and his children from that marriage. And THAT is a logical and universally held "train of thought" for bazillions worldwide.

And I thought adults had the moral obligation to raise any baby they were responsible for bringing into this world.

=^^= Yeah...they are. Did anyone say anything differently? However the circumstances of an OC often prevents a bio dad to "raise" a OC in the traditional sense because he has a family already, distance and other factors.

You are right, I've never walked in those shoes. While I had a H who did cheat, many times actually, he didn't father a child with those women.

=^^= Well, congratulations then...you are one of the "lucky" ones who have avoided being sentenced to twenty years-two decades of financial hardhship and emotional heartache and conflicting feelings.

"Your kids are a product of your marriage."

Kids are not just a product of marriage.

=^^= Sure, they are ...they ARE products of your marriage. Saying that they are products of your marriage does not mean that they are one dimensional or that is all they are. I don't understand how you got that out of that statement. I was speaking in general terms relating to family structure...not in substantive terms.

My kids are a product of a defunct marriage, but we are doing our best to co-parent for the best of the kids.

=^^= Whether defunct or not, they are products of your marriage in the familial structural sense. I'm glad that you and your EX are successfully co-parenting your children. As it should be.

The H could not have a relationship with the previous affair partner of course. But that is no different than an XH not having a relationship with his XW.

"You've GOT to be kidding? There is absolutely no comparison for all the reasons stated above.

Catnip, I don't like to take discussions to personal levels, just to keep them at a higher "theory" level because people tend to get upset.

=^^= I'm sorry. I didn't mean to upset you. But you just described your situation with your ex and co-parenting. We all need to take from our own experiences to give valid examples so we know from which we speak.

So speaking not about you but about any woman who CHOSE to remain in a marriage after infidelity, has the same choices that a woman has before marrying a man with children who happens to be divorced. It's the same scenario.

=^^= But it's NOT the same scenario in the least; and I am speaking as a woman (for an example...not to quash theory but to offer a prime example) who is in the swirling eye of the storm in both arenas. I am both a stepmom with custody of my husband's two children from a previous marriage (that I agreed to wholeheartedly) and the BW with a husband who fathered an OC (that I did NOT agree to) and I am not about to give up all the work, the joy, the history, the love, the sadness, the sacrifice, the security of my stepkids, the great times, the good, the bad or the ugly and just step aside for a child that should never existed or been born to someone other than me...unless I have grown and evolved enough to welcome said child into my home and into my heart. Which is possible now. Because of my gratitude for my/our recovery. But, like I said before...it is a process. It takes time and everyone has to be patient.

The woman has to look at the man's responsibilities and decide. Why should she have the "right" to tell the man to abandon his child?

=^^= If he is paying CS he is not abandoning the OC; but, she certainly has the right to express her difficulty with accepting the OC into their family and life (contact) if she is not ready or willing. She decides, then He decides...and the OW decides.

Sorry I don't see it. Everything you write is about your feelings, not the childs.

=^^= You don't have to see it and you can't see it having never lived it, and that's fine. It might be about the BW's feelings initially, but when the dust settles it is all about what is best for ALL the kids. It isn't so much about "feelings" as it is about what will work out best for everyone as a whole. Unless, you understand the enormous pain of the situation, you won't be able to understand that certain things need to be in place to offer an OC contact with the bio father's family. The children of the marriage often have a lot of heartburn and embarrassment about what their father has done and their is jealousy and insecurities need to be addressed first before OC's feelings are considered...that's the job of the OC's mother to protect the OC from feeling rejected or sad or insecure. Primarily by attitude. After all, she is the one who created this mess along with WS, knowing he was otherwise engaged in a marriage and already had a fmaily, so the bulk of the OC's feelings lay on her shoulders. It makes me sick that any OC should have to live like this and it infuriates me that these people put these children in this position to begin with. But, it is their issue to resolve the the job of the BW to tend to her marriage and to her own children first...and she rightfully expects her husband to work overtime to fix this mess he has created even if it means hammering out unpleasant details through POJA until the marriage has recovered.


my heart goes out to those wives who have had their worlds turned upsidedown by a husband who can't keep it in his pants and then DOESN'T EVEN have the smarts to prevent bringing a child into this world in this situation.

=^^= I hear ya...not to mention the calculating and/or stupidity of a woman who does nothing to protect her body from getting pregnant with all the birth control available to her since she was 12...there is no excuse for it in this day and age unless you are either underage or a moron or live under a rock. Especially if she knew the man was not available to be a proactive dad to her child and already married and had a life with someone else. Women have all the power, too. They are the ones who determine whether or not there will be sex to begin with. If she says NO (unless it is rape) there will be no sex, hence, no pregnancy. It is up to each and every woman to protect her body and to keep herself from getting pregnant.

"As long as the WS supports the OC financially, there is no abandonment.

Boy, I don't see this. Any man who brings a child into this world is responsible for more than the money part that he is required by law to pay. Irregardless of the situation, obligation to children we bring into this world remains. Nothing changes that. Now that doesn't mean that a woman married to such a man has any obligation. I think not.

=^^= Well, that's where we diagree and that's good. We need two schools of thought here. But I think we have to realize that certain situations call for creative contact if the bio dad is several states away, is broke due to excessive CS and cannot afford to travel or too much time has passed or the OW is completely unwilling to allow contact or sets up road block after road block to any contact. So many OW's want nothing to do with the bio dad and are only interested in securing huge portions of income shares. You can read all about that on TOW. It is often, sadly, all about the money. We see that so much here.

"Most of the time it is the OW who makes contact impossible with only a few exceptions that we have seen here."

I could see that happening a lot. Especially from an OW who got pregnant on purpose to try and take the man from his existing family!

=^^= That happens quite a bit. I have read on TOW how one gal "tried" to get pregnant w/her MM, which blew me away. Why on earth would someone deliberately do something so reckeless and cheat their child out of a dad? There were a couple of others over there admitting to the same and it is incredible.

"On the other hand, we have a few situations here where contact is not only successful but is rewarding for all involved.

That HAS to be cool when it all works out!!

=^^= It is. These OC's become our "kids" by proxy like with Stacia who has almost complete custody of her OC primarily because her OW is troubled and needs help to straighten out her life, but Stacia has been there from the beginning for Lil Bit and her husband is a lucky man for sure. There are several others who have regular contact and others who have occasional but most of them have an awful time with their OW causing trouble/problems. There are exceptions to the rule like Mom of Five who is completely reasonable and has found a way to make her situation work through mutual respect and working together with her XMM and his W for the good of her child. We also have some BW's who adamantly refuse to accept contact on any level for perosnal reasons usually relating to outrageous OW's bent on destoying their marrige and family and then there are people like me who have grown into accepting the possibility and are open to whatever happens. It is all so different for everyone and that's why I keep saying there is no cookie cutter to stamp out exact same scenarios for each person, each marriage and their situation. One thing I think we can all agree on is that we all want the best for all the kids and we desire peace, security, happiness, love and all good things for OC.

My good wishes and prayers are with all you ladies who were put into this awful, unimaginable situation unwillingly by the man they love and who swore to protect them from the world. <img border="0" alt="[Teary]" title="" src="graemlins/teary.gif" />

=^^= (sniff) Thanks...and thanks for your lively debate. It was fun and enlightening.
[/QB]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

yes, that was a good debate to read but still one thing is always forgotten in these debates and that is the original children from the marriage.

It's always addressed about what is best for OC and that MM is abandoning OC but what about the original children he "abandoned" to have the A? Don't thier feelings count? They suddenly have to "share" their father, it's like they get punished for their father's sins. And I'm speaking about father's here more because when they choose C it is more of a disruption because the child usually does not "live" with daddy but "visits". So original children have to just "accept" this new person into their lives and eventually they become aware of who this person's mommy is and they know that it is not right. Imagine how confusing for them to see all the adults (who are getting over their issues and acting like "adults") trying to accept this current situation like it is normal when the children all know that it is not!

If there is now an OC, the MM and BS have to divide their time, attention, love and money with this new OC. It is different when mommy gets pregnant and every one has time to adjust and there is preparation and celebration over the birth of a new sibling. They get to see their sibling grow and develop not so w/ an OC---suddenly they are thrust into their lives.

What about those children? Who's thinking of them? Who is caring about their feelings? Not much is mentioned about them around here except in the occasional sentence about "what's best for ALL the children", but that's about it. Why don't we have a debate about what is in the best interest of ORIGINAL children or BETRAYED children? Maybe that's what they should be called---BC. They have been just as betrayed and now have to be betrayed again when daddy has a relationship w/ OC. Why don't we think of it as "cheating" on your children?


*******Now.... another thing.......*****

If OC were so loved, cared for and important enough to have daddies, then no female would have gotten pregnant out of wedlock much less to a married man in the first place. I think OW are just using the "abandonement card" for their own personal satisfaction. Why would they sue for CS if they only wanted thier OC to have a daddy? Why not "sue" to force daddy to be involved?

Why is it so bad that a MM actually has to "think" about being involved w/ OC? Why don't we get upset @ these OW for "thinking" about producing a child that won't have a daddy? ANd OW are not "abandoned" or "left with" a child---they could give it up for adoption where it can have a stable home w/ a mommy and daddy not have to live a life w/o a daddy or not having a stable home because they have to go back and forth! The OW has the sole right to choose the kind of life thier child can/will have and they choose this.

So if OW think it is best for thier child to be born w/o a daddy then why is it so bad for the MM to think the same thing?

Whoa...very good, ktbunch. You have offered a considerable bounty of "food for thought".

You are absolutely right on nearly everything you said. Our BC (I like that one...it is very telling) are relegated to the backburner in almost all cases. No one ever thinks about these kids except for their parents. The outraged cry from OP's for equality for their OC's drowns out the needs and concern for the BC. The weeping and gnashing of teeth and cries of abandonment we hear are so loud and vocal that we get sucked into what is best for OC and almost all consideration is focused on OC while our BC are ignored and dismissed all along by the OP and sometimes by us in our efforts to be fair and do the right thing.

The OP certainly never cared about the BC so I can see where it is difficult for BW to feel empathy for their plight.

They work on our guilt and sense of decency and fair play while it is apparent that they never even felt bad about what they were doing to destroy the lives of these BC's. In fact, the BC's are rarely mentioned or discussed on either board. It's always about the OC and the mewlings of "ain't it awful". It's pretty out of proportion, isn't it?

Why do we get ourselves sucked into that? Because we care deeply about ALL the kids and want happiness and security for them. It isn't our faults they might not have it but we have legions of OW who have come here in the past making demands, shaming and guilting us (successfully, I might add) and calling us names on their board and all this stupid stuff that goes on and on and on and on.

How about we all just mind our own families and accept responsibility for whatever we did to screw up the lives of our own kids and just stop being so outraged that OC doesn't have Dad. If they get CS, they have not been abandoned and that's that. Bio dad is otherwise engaged and has his own family to tend to so it is up to bio mom to find a suitable father to replace bio dad and make a nice stable secure and loving home for OC and WS & BW will pay CS and wish them well. End of story. I don't think anyone should expect anymore than that from this difficult and horrible situation.

We keep having these debates on a regular basis, rehashing the same issues without success. Perhaps it is time to just let the debate die out and hopefully everyone can bury their outrage and stop playing their abandonment cards and stop feeling guilty for something they had nothing to do with.

You've coined two new phrases here tonight...Betrayed Children and the Abandonment Card. Excellent, kt.

Cat =^^=

As the BW, mother of BC, I think the children of the marriage are not taken into consideration.
My children don't know of the A but know we had problems. However we have talked about other people we knew in that situation. My girls expressed their disgust with the father who betrayed the mother of their friends and had an A.
I know my younger daughter takes great pride in being her daddy's "baby girl" she would be so hurt to learn that she isn't the baby girl ( techincally speaking, she is 15 now) but that daddy has another baby girl younger than she.
Or how about my youngest son, when he learns of his half sister who is 4 mos younger than he is. He will question his dad's love of him and as well as question how his dad could have shown such lack of respect for me.

Finally I have always felt the OW robbed me of the special position I had of being my husband's wife and the mother of his children. To me presenting my husband with children was my right given to me the day we married. Each child was a living symbol of the specialness of our love for one another and that thru these children our love would live on. His betrayal of our vows was incredibly painful; his "gift" of a child by another woman, denigrated something that had been just ours.
I could handle seeing the OC but he didn't want the constant reminder of his "stupidity".
He also felt that the distance between us and her, ( we live in TX, she is in NC) would be prohibitive as far as being involved with her. He also felt the time spent with her deprived our children of his time, especially since he spend most weekdays away from home..
There is no easy answer her, it is a situation that must be dealt with by the parties involved. It is kind of a situation where one size DOES NOT fit all.
We do the best we can, and sadly it might be the OC who suffers, but what if the OC's father had died? What would the OC/OW do for a father figure then? We all cope with the hand that is dealt with us.

TG

I've read this thread with great interest...and I have to agree with what Catnip, KT and Texasgirl has to say.

When Mr."T" was in court (We filed to establish paternity and set up the CS etc...we never ran away or tried to "not" pay. We knew we had to pay Child support and wanted to make sure the child was his before shelling out anymore money)The court did not consider the children of the marriage...I believe they counted only one of the children, as they told Mr."T" that I could go out and support the other child. They didn't care that we have three children at home already that Mr."T" supported 100%.

As a result, financially we are bankrupt. We are filing for bankruptcy because we cannot pay it all.

In our particular case, the ex-ow knew that there was a wife and children of the home and she didn't care. She told me she wanted him and I am quoting her exactly, "I thought he would change his mind and leave you and the children to make a home for me and OC"...she thought wrong.

As the others have stated numerous times, there is no one size fits all in this situation and I can speak from experience from being blindsided by this...it is awful, the worse thing in the world and no one gives a crap about my kids, except me. (and Mr."T").

We chose NC for a variety of reasons and it works for us. We pay our child support faithfully, even to the point where it's ramon noodles for the children of the home (Thank God we qualify for WIC) and we pay for 66% of the medical and OC is on our insurance.

Yes, we look at ourselves in the mirror everyday and can live with ourselves. We are moving on and growing stronger each day.

It's amazing what two selfish individuals(OP and WS) can do to a whole slew of people...amazing...
the ripple effect astounds me.

Twiisty

Catnip...I disagree with almost 100% of what you write but I do have a question for you that does not involve the NC debate, or not directly.

You said and I am paraphrasing, that many will seek contact after a two year period of NC. Now I ask you this...is that fair to the OC or the OW? In my opinion, I would rather he disappear forever that march back into mine and my child's life after two years of not giving a crap about his baby. What if I have moved on, have a step father for my child? Am I then supposed to throw all of that out the window to accomodate a man who can not make up his mind?

First he wanted contact, then he didn't, now he does again? Please. When do I get to live my life without having to deal with his on again, off again presence in his child's life? How to screw up a child 101 don't ya think? In my eyes, I see that as pure revenge, screw up OC to get back at OW. If you want NC, then stick to it, let the OC have a real father.

**I am not condonning NC, but nor can I control that decision.

Twilight

It goes both ways. There are as many MM playing games with NC as the OW. You have your MM that want NC then want it only to back off again. Then you have your OW who tell the MM he can have contact only to stop it cause things aren't going her way. The games need to stop.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by twilight:
<strong> Catnip...I disagree with almost 100% of what you write but I do have a question for you that does not involve the NC debate, or not directly.

=^^= That's OK. I guess we are "supposed to" disagree and neither side will ever be able to understand the other's side entirely.

You said and I am paraphrasing, that many will seek contact after a two year period of NC. Now I ask you this...is that fair to the OC or the OW?

=^^= Life's not fair. It certainly wasn't fair to the BW or her BC. It takes at least that long for a marriage to rebuild after such a huge emotional shipwreck. No one can "control" the time it takes...people just have to let it run its course and hope that with concentrated effort, it can happen sooner rather than later. I don't think many BW's care whether or not this schedule is fair or accomodates the OW as they blame the OW for causing this emotional shipwreck to begin with. And I suppose the OC is a source of angst in the beginning and most BW's just assume the OW will take care of their own child while the BW and WS try to rebuild their lives. I don't know, Twilight. It's all so convoluded for everyone involved. Nothing is fair...to ANYONE...especially the BW & the BC and OC. The "time" element that is your issue is something that can't be controlled and I know OW's are impatient to get what they want and what they want for their OC, but that's not the BW's problem, I guess. All we can do is feel bad for OC and hope that OC is being loved and cared for. BW's have their own pain and issues and most of all their own BC to think about. Asking a BW to bend or accomodate an OW who has intruded into her life is enormous crust. A BW will probably want to be involved after she has had time to heal but to expect it sooner than that is pretty unaccomodating of OW's after what they have done to her life. I guess there is a lot for both sides to suck up.

In my opinion, I would rather he disappear forever that march back into mine and my child's life after two years of not giving a crap about his baby.

=^^= A bio dad's absence doesn't necessarily mean he doesn't give a crap about his child. It might mean that he just has other obligations to his family. I think all bio dads should be accomodating and not fight OW's on every level pertaining to suppport and work to arrange fair and reasoanble support, but other than that, I just don't know what else can be done for OC unless everyone lives in the same area (that makes a HUGE difference) and there is no "distance" issues and the BW is open to C. Every situation is different. There are plenty of working C situations, especially where everyone lives nearby. Two years is a long time to expect a child to wait around for a father figure but how much of a father could he be anyway? He certainly wouldn't be around very much in most situations anyway. I just don't know what everyone expects and I don't see many happy solutions for most.

What if I have moved on, have a step father for my child? Am I then supposed to throw all of that out the window to accomodate a man who can not make up his mind?

=^^= Hopefully, he would do the decent thing and walk away and let your child have stability and his family without interference. You should not have to accomodate XMM simply because he is bio dad. Big deal. The real Dad is the one who loves and cares for OC and raises OC. No, TL, I agree with you and think you should move on and not accomodate XMM.

First he wanted contact, then he didn't, now he does again? Please. When do I get to live my life without having to deal with his on again, off again presence in his child's life? If you want NC, then stick to it, let the OC have a real father.

=^^= I agree completely. In this case, if I were you, I would take control of the situation and tell him there will be NC and not let him "decide" any longer. Now it is up to you. He forfeited his chance at making this call by being wishy-washy.

</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Good luck to you, Twilight. I know you are going through some really tough times right now and you are hurt and confused, but Hope is doing well and she is gaining strength and health and that is the best news. God bless, TL. You're a good kid in a nasty place and I hope you will take control because you do have the power.

Even though we don't agree, you are very respectful to us and having you here gives us/me another perspective. These boards, after all, are all about enlightenement.

Catnip =^^=

<small>[ November 26, 2003, 10:14 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

If the OW gets a new man in her life and father for OC and MM has been having NC......why would he suddenly want to start C? If there was a new father then there would be no reason for MM in the picture @ all, unless OW was still collecting CS.

Why would OW still collect CS if there was a new father? If OW wanted to keep NC, then have new father legally adopt OC and then it's all over completely. MM cannot just waltz right back into OC life because now he is no longer the father, he would no longer be responsible for CS either so I think many MM, who have NC would agree to this.

There are always options to choose, OW just have to choose them. Most WS are not monsters, they do care about children that is why they choose to stay with thier original children and are trying not to make the horrible situation they have created, even worse. Even though they usually regret A w/ OW, they still would be happy for her to have another, good life and would be happy for OC to have a real father in her life and OW to have a husband.

The type of men who try to play games like this usually can't keep their marriages together either and end up being single. They are still lost in a selfish fog and have chosen to hurt every one rather then save something. They don't care about any one but themselves and since that is true, if they decided to have C again, it would not even last. They, most likely, just proposed it to get CS lowered and you will see that it won't even be that many visits and they will flake out. They are different from the MM who stayed married and are really trying. I don't think the ones who are really trying are into playing games.

It takes some maturity to wake up and realize the mess you've made and work hard at repairing it and maturity is past playing games.

there was/is a discussion on the other board about terminating parental rights. I believe in most states there has to be 2 years of NC to go ahead with that based on abandonment. I would gladly give up CS if Hope had a step father. Right now, in my current situation, giving up CS is not an option...I wouldn't make it financially. Even if, in a few years I get my career back on track and could make it on my own...I would like to terminate rights and give up CS. In my mind, if he walks away, then stay gone. Catnip...I do agree on one thing, the distance makes contact next to impossible and in my particular case I think NC is the better option more everyday. That being said...I am angry today, my court date is today, and I am on edge...so my posts are coloured with it.

Also Catnip...thank you for your compliment and your good wishes.

'nother board on the opposite side of an OW board on an anti-cheat site http://www.scarleta.com, that contains one monitored board in particular that reviles and ridicules the cheats who post on *support* boards. Not for everyone, particularly if you think society should dumb down and accept the cheating antics of actively-screwing-around socioapaths. But if you find it kind of amazing, as I do, that a cheater could post on a marriage-building board and get pats on the back, you might enjoy reading.

"But if you find it kind of amazing, as I do, that a cheater could post on a marriage-building board and get pats on the back,"

Dac,

Twilight does not get "pats on the back" for being a cheater on MB. We have lots of cheaters here (former WS's <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ) and none of them are hung on a cross. She has been very respectful of the pain on this board while seeking answers and solutions for her particular situation. She comes here as a woman in pain, wanting help and in a difficult situation. And she is responded to as such.

Dac, I have "known" you (although not through personal email) for many years through various sites. I understand your pain and anger. Our situations were VERY similar. There was a time several years ago when I needed a site such as yours to vent my rage and hurt. MBer's need to know if they choose to visit this site, it CAN be very graphic. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Eek!]" src="images/icons/shocked.gif" />

{{{Dac}}}} wishing you peace and continued healing. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Smile]" src="images/icons/smile.gif" />

I don't believe that anyone who has not lived through this could even begin to understand the process.

The OC is not a step child, but an OC. There is a huge difference. To compare the two is a complete denial of the feelings of the BW/BC.

KT, good for you to bring up the BC. As usual, nobody ever thinks of them. That is who I advocate for the strongest. These children need and deserve a voice here. The OC is not the only one who is getting hurt.

To say that the adults should handle this in a certain way is a moot point. One adult (BW) was not privy to the EMR. Two other adults created this mess and it is not the job of the BW/BC to make right. Everyone takes it on the chin, including OC. That is the fault of OC parents. Not of the BW/BC.

As for H who stay with their families and go NC. That is their right to do so. It is what is best for the family and most certainly the BC. Why should they have to suffer? Should their dad miss a soccer game to be with OC? Should their dad miss a school function to be with OC? Nope. My H and I choose NC as it was best for our family and our kids. Now that those children are teens, they hate the thought of OC. They do not want to meet OC.

Catnip, you are 100% correct, as usual. Your eloquent writing clearly depicts what we all know and feel.

This is the best thread, to support NC, I have ever read.

So many of you know how to, eloquently, word a message. I say thank-you.

There are so many different situations, and opinions.

I have to say, this is one bunch of STRONG women.

ember

I have to agree with catnip that this particular issue never dies on this board. And it is always the same result.

I raised my OC with no contact and he's just fine--meaning he feels secured in my love. He's all grown up and never has had any desire to knock on MM's door looking for any entitlements. He's also a boy. The results might be different for girl OCs, I don't know? Everybody reacts differently.

Affairs cause pain, and granted half of the pain is self-inflicted, some of the pain is due to being a victim of cheating, lying WS's, and some of the pain is due to being a victim of parents' bad choices.

Nevertheless, I like what one of our long-time MBer's signature line says, "Pain is a given, misery is an option." Once we stop blaming someone else for causing our pain and wanting them to pay for it, we can stop being so miserable. I might be wrong, but I can't help but think that?

Everyone has to move on with life and do what is best for their individual family--whether it is contact or no contact. Each situation is different and people have different ways of coping when life takes unexpected turns.

We all have to ask ourselves what decisions we can we live with and be able to look ourselves in the mirror every day with a good, clear conscience?

Some BS's can't live without contact. Some can. Some OPs expect emotional support and contact, some do not. We get hurt when our expectations of others are not met.

Sure, when we make vows we should be able to expect the other person to uphold their commitment. But then again, it depends on the individual's definition of "commitment." Everybody has their own reality based on their perceptions. & No one can say what is someone else's reality or what they should do based on another person's reality.

The best we can do here is share our own experiences and hope that it helps someone out there sort through the confusion that affairs cause.

TheFemininSide,
Wow! You have made some really great points. Great post. I think that the posters who choose NC will fight tooth and nail for their points because deep down they know, and so does society, that abandoning a child is WRONG. Take away the labels...I'm sure God doesn't see these innocent children as "OC". "God bless the little children, ALL the children of the world"(not just the ones born of marriage).

Like I said before, in some situation NC might be best if a parent did everything they can to make it work. But if there is phisical or mental damage being done to the child it might be best to wait until that parent matures a little.

I would just hate to be carrying around an ulcer like that for the rest of my life.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by ImNotyou:
<strong>
I think that the posters who choose NC will fight tooth and nail for their points because deep down they know, and so does society, that abandoning a child is WRONG.

=^^= Your implication is that the OC is being abandoned when in fact they receive financial support from bio dad and the care, love and security from their custodial parent. All bases are covered. What else do you expect beyond what is court ordered when the MM is otherwise engaged in his marriage with his wife and their children? What is the criteria (in your opinion) of NOT being "abandoned", according to your interpretation? I'm not trying to be a smart [censored]...I truly want to know what more is expected other than financial support?
When I think of abandonment, I think of a child who has bonded with someone and then suddenly never sees them again and the child is pining away for that person who used to be in their life. There has to be a relationship already established before NC can be construed as "abandonment". Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards.

Take away the labels...I'm sure God doesn't see these innocent children as "OC". "God bless the little children, ALL the children of the world"(not just the ones born of marriage).

=^^= And as long as we are waving the flag here, talking loud, puffed and proud and drawing a crowd, God bless the BC.
Maybe God doesn't see OC as OC (which are only abbreviations so when we post it is clear about whom we are speaking) but that's what Other Children are ...Other Children. These children do not belong to us and are not our kids. However, that being said, most BW's eventually come around and are willing to keep the door open once the marriage has healed sufficiently. The healing won't happen on your time line, so patience is required. If no one can wait for the couple to recover their marriage, it's just too bad. That's just the way it is.
TOW come here all the time moaning and whining about the OC while they never for one moment thought about the BC, the precious children from the marriage and their emotional distress, the heartache, sadness, humiliation, stark fear of losing their family and the far reaching ramifications of what the OW has done.

The OC is the OC...a child that belongs to someone barely more than a stranger to many of us Betrayeds. What is it that you expect or want us to do for the OC? Why do want us to care anyway? </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Catnip,
I hate to see cut and paste but i don't want to misquote you.

You said...
"When I think of abandonment, I think of a child who has bonded with someone and then suddenly never sees them again and the child is pining away for that person who used to be in their life. There has to be a relationship already established before NC can be construed as "abandonment". Simply choosing NC from the beginning and never having carved a relationship with the child, yet providing significant financial support, is not considered abandonment even by family court standards."

So do you feel that the mother who gives birth to a baby and dumps him/her in the trash is not abandonment?

I feel you create your own terms of what abandonment means to you and that's your porogative.

And I'll repeat it once again. God loves all the children. I never stated anything about disregarding the BC. I said "ALL".

I'm not trying to put my child above anyone else, and I'm not bitter because my childs father isn't in his life, because he is. And that doesn't make my child better than anyone else's. It just makes his father a better person than a man who decides not to have a relationship with his children.

I'm speaking for ALL children. I'm also speaking for my self, a child of MARRIAGE, who's father choose not to have a realationship with me. Yes, I did see him everycouple of years, a phone call 2-3 times a year, and he was eventually forced to pay child support. But i don't consider that being a father AT ALL. So, you must get an idea of what I think of men who abandone their children.

Abondonment doesn't only count if the kids are from marriege.

No one in this forum or world can convince me that these men who do this won't go to their grave with a cloud hanging over their heads.