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#824180 12/01/03 09:42 AM
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gem,,,,,,,,

----------------------And pops, we raised our son right! He despises oc and says it's not his sibling! It's his right I guess and I concur with that and my H does also...3 years out of the fog...I'll bet ow's H is greatful for the cs money and none of us in his face!
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gem i am sure you did raise your son right. if i am not correct i am sorry but i believe that your son is older. correct?

please let's try to put our indivdual hurts about the A aside for a second. let me ask you these questions.

1- what did that oc do to be despised by your son? did he/she steal his baseball glove, break his bat, or maybe something more personal like bad mouth you or his father? please let me know what that child did to be despised.

2- he says he/she is not his sibling. fine that is HIS right to denial. but does not his fathers blood run through both their vains? facts are facts. the sun comes up everyday even when it's overcast and cold and you can't see it.

i understand that your ow was a real b@#!*& and that you even had a real winner of a preacher if i remember right. i am not advocateing that you even need to have contact. nc is fine. i am just saying that the anger toward that 3 year old is unjustly placed. sure hate the ow. happens and no problem here.

what bothers me is the thought of a possible scenerio like this: your son and his friends out to see a movie in lets say maybe 7 years. he bumps into oc standing in line at the age of 10 with his friends waiting to see the same movie. your son with the 10 years of pent up anger towards the oc either belittles oc or makes a comment like "that's that little [censored] child" or whatever. doesn't that seem absurb? what a waste of anger on your sons part. to go through years of anquish for something he or oc had no say in.

doesn't it make more sense for you as a parent to try and explain and talk to him about where the real anger should be directed?

i don't recall what your h pays for cs and don't care. i will also be one of the first to say that the whole system needs to be reworked. but i am sure that ow h has no quams about recieveing a check each month with no intervention from your h. but then again i would suppose it depends on how that family handles their finances. i can tell you in our house om hates the fact that he is supporting not only grace but my kids also and of course his money is buying me a new truck. yeah right. i don't see a penny of that money and in fact i still have to pay graces child care occasionly for fh and om. so that money doesn't help me one bit. it allows fh to buy diapers, formula and pay off bills she ran up during her A. but knowing the check was coming and if om stayed away would be nice from my seat.

i have to give the om credit in our case as he actually seems interested in having a real relationship with grace and his family.

<small>[ December 01, 2003, 08:49 AM: Message edited by: pops ]</small>

#824181 12/01/03 02:45 PM
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pops,
Maybe I left an important word out at the end of my sentence. I'll try it again.

Our son hates that oc exists. Got it now? He has told my H and myself oc is not his brother. From the very begining he's said he'd never want to know oc.

It may be denial to you, it's a way of life for him. He as entitled to his feelings about this as all of you.

Knowing our son, he'd never do that scene at a movie. He has indifference toward ow/oc and the rest of ow's family.

Ow's H's family have a lot of money too, own a lot of restaurants and businesses. Ow's wealth is from a trust fund. They are very flamboyant people. Loud and boisterious. Even while we were "friends" with them my son couldn't stand being around that family and usually wasn't.

Hope that cleared the air for you.

Son has said he feels bad that oc is being raised in a "real mess" as far as ow's family life goes, so I guess he has some sympathy huh?

Did I explain it better now?

We all despise oc exists with "exist" being the operative word, not "oc". Just total apathy concerning oc.

We all do what we can to get by now don't we?


needtomoveon,
As far as d-day and holidays and birthdays goes....H told me a week away from our sons' 21st birthday, 2 weeks from Thanksgiving and a month from Christmas!

XMM should just TELL HER!

As far as a mean scary woman goes, sheese, is XMM scared of her too?

There is no good time to find out. Waiting just prolongs the coming agony that will be suffered.

M, best wishes, really. Ours are two different scenarios but somehow the same. Outcomes seem bleak, but pray for the way to walk and I'm sure your prayer will be answered in good time.

I'm sure with a good family attorney things will be settled quickly.

love
Debi

<small>[ December 01, 2003, 01:55 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

#824182 12/01/03 03:03 PM
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Pops

You call my husband "misguided" cause he thinks his OC is a mistake? And then have the nerve to talk about self rightousness?

I think the only self rightous people on here on the ones who willingly sacrifice the children of the marriage and the marriage all at the alter of the OC. The oc is one of many victims of two selfish people.

And yes, no matter what you say or do, the OC will one day realize exactly why there was no contact with daddy. We are all well aware of affairs and their meaning.

As for the children of the marrige "hating" the OC. You automatically assume that the BC would do something wrong, since he hates the OC. Why would you not worry about the OC harrassing the BC? Cause you only see things through the filter of the OC. Personally, I think they would just avoid each other. Interesting how you assume the BC would be the one to cause trouble.

Who is being self rightous?

Oh, and I am aware of my husbands affair and where he put his "sausage", it hurt me and I was angry. Are you implying that your wife spreading herself to accept anothers "sausage" is fine with you? My husband has regretted everyday for 16 years that OC exists. He sees him as a mistake. Sure, OC is innocent, but so were are children and they came first. Personally, I think raising an OC with the drama of one weekend here, another there, etc. is a misguided attempt to raise a child with a solid foundation. Sounds like it creates confusion and hard feelings. Feelings you yourself have expressed having to listen to your wife chat awaay with OM on the phone, or how she sprints out of restaurants to see talk to OM in the parking lot of restaurants. That doesn't sound healthy for anyone.

So don't be calling those of us who believe in no contact as judgemental, cause that can go both ways. Actually, considering this is a marriage building site, calling any BW who wants NC any name is wrong.

As for the rest of you who are here, OW or those of you like Heavanly, who cast stones at fathers who choose no contact as "wrong" that is also your opinion. But to presume that no contact somehow makes anyone wrong is judgemental.

Contact is damaging and hurtfull to many, including your sainted OC. The family and marriage deserve a chance to heal and move forward. Leaving ALL in the past, OC included. Sad but true. But is not the OC just one of many hurt by OW and MM? Once again, the BC have a rights too. And not confusing them and hurting them with visitation with a child that is born of lies and deceit is NOT wrong. It is an viable option. And as you can see here, many many BW agree with and are supportive of NC for a myriad of reasons. And that is a reality that the OW and MM have to consider when they get themselves into this situation.

Once again, we are back to the age old argument, as pertaining to this situation. And it is not on the backs of the BW and her children to correct the horrible wrong that the OW and MM have created. That is simply to unfair and typically selfish to even consider it.

Actually, reading this makes me even more pro no contact. Because the purely selfish OW and OW supporters think nothing of the BW and the BC. They want everyone to accept this is a "fact". Well the OC is a "fact" But another "fact" is that MM and his family can and do choose no contact. Bearing crosses belongs to all, courtesy of the OW and MM. The family has to suffer financial sacrifice, and the OW/OC have to also suffer not having daddy around.

Sad, but it was never the fault of the BW or the BC.

#824183 12/01/03 03:43 PM
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One last thing pops,
Had my H been a sperm donor in the past, I suppose those babies/children are our son's siblings too?

If you still say "yes" then I'll tell you we still say "no".

Not in any sense of the word.

We'll never be a family together. Oc has siblings that recognize oc. Why should we have to do something no one wants?

Oc will never know any of our extended family as they prefer it that way also.
I just wanted to say thoses last things since in my last post to you I forgot.

Debi

#824184 12/01/03 03:55 PM
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Catnip,
Thanks again for your post to me. I do appreciate your time and point of view. Glad you had such a nice holiday! Ours was filled with lots of friends, family, food and laughter! Work today is kind of a downer after all the great times over the last 4 days. Welcome to the real world eh?

Heavenly,
Your name aptly describes you as you are quite a loving and warm woman. Your husband is very fortunate to have you in his life! You can tell him I said so! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> Also, your Christianity shines through very brightly!!

Thanks for the compliment ImNotYou. I admire the way you do not flame others on the board. It's a very hard subject to discuss with those who have been touched by it.

Pops,
Like you, my focus when thinking of this subject is always on the children, not the adults. I wish you nothing but happiness and love in your future.

#824185 12/01/03 04:16 PM
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TheFeminineSide,

How old is the "OC" in your life?

#824186 12/01/03 04:44 PM
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Nearly,
I don't have an OC in my life. I am a mother though...

#824187 12/01/03 05:34 PM
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gem,,,,, thank you for the clearification. i can understand not being happy with the exixtance of an oc. that explanation takes the anger from the oc and places it where it belongs on 2 adults.

lynn,,,, as usual in your rant on this subject you missed the point. i never said that i was against nc. for some it is a very viable method in saving their marriage. what i said was i don't like people placing blame and redicule on c's. ANY c's of the marriage, orphans, c's concieved from rape. or oc. the c's have done nothing to recieve this lifetime sentence. in the old days when a woman had a child from a father that disappeared at birth or sooner that child was labeled a [censored] child. i ask you why? why were those c's branded in such a fashion when they had no way on earth of preventing there life style? haven't we come farther then that as a society?

you will never convince me that young c's automatically dislike oc's because they are simply oc. that comes from adults ranting and not taking care to handle these situations out of ear shout of the young ones. in that way they are harming there own c's.

older c's who understand the ramifications of infidelity sure they can and oft times do get upset. my oldest 2 did just that. but have been able to accept grace into our family because fh and i have done just that. they simply followed our lead.

and as far as fh chatting and sprinting to talk to other man. my oc filter never blamed grace for any of it. my disappiontment landed squarely on the person that caused me anquish, fh. you see grace never sent her mom to speak to om it was fh's decision.

i quess it just boils down to which side of the bs fence you sit, male or female. a woman wanting to stay in her marriage has a choice whether to proceed with contact or nc. a man doesn't usually have that option. it would be awfully hard for me to stay married to fh and choose nc with grace living in my house now wouldn't it?

#824188 12/01/03 05:44 PM
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pepper,,,,,,,, no i am saying that any adult that berates or belittles any c is that low. not just the 2 that created an oc. THIS STATEMENT APLIES TO ALL CHILDREN.

and it is not the oc's cross to bear. those c's should never be burdened with that cross. they should be simply nurtured and loved. if mm chooses nc contact then fine. ow love your c twice as much. why would you want to force someone to be around a c if it isn't in their heart. you will be doing your c no good to press that issue. if contact is choosen then all adults should love that c fully. and noone should lay any burden of the c's conseption on the c.

#824189 12/01/03 11:25 PM
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Gem wrote:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">So get off your high horse and do what you and your H must do and accept oc/D! Do it! With our blessings....don't you dare tell us that we must accept oc or suffer repercussions from our H's. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I don't believe I am on a "high horse", nor was I "daring" to tell anyone what they should accept. My post very clearly tells "MY" experience and suggests that everyone has to decide for themselves. Quite balanced and correct, I believe.

Gem said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> A huge difference is your H sneaked and bonded for a while before you found out. Didn't happen here. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">My H and I had regular contact with his daughter until she was nearly one year old. Both of us. There was no need for him to sneak and "bond", we did it together. My H had no contact for several years at the request of the OC's mother. I always knew how my H felt about family and I fully agree with him. What do you know, a POJA? I believe that is the way MB principles work.

Gem said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Perhaps your h cannot forget his precious D and you have come to accept that.

Go on with MB blessings.

Know that we support you. And we will.

Just quit with that soap box drama of oc and bs accepting as if it's all ws will...it isn't. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Disrespectful judgements? Doesn't sound like MB principles to me. It's a shame that even a BS cannot express a differing opinion without being jumped by the schoolyard bullies.

I have a right to my opinion and a right to share it with those members of this board who agree. Sorry you don't like it. You can keep attacking me all you want. A more adult approach would be to stop reading my posts and stop replying.

LynnG said:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> As for the rest of you who are here, OW or those of you like Heavanly, who cast stones at fathers who choose no contact as "wrong" that is also your opinion. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Please show me where you believe I was "casting stones" at fathers who choose no contact as "wrong". I very clearly stated in my post that it was a choice that needed to be made by the husband and wife after careful reflection and after the BS did everything to make the marriage "safe".

I also stated:

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial"> I speak only of my situation and hope that those out there who have compassion and true forgiveness in their hearts can be helped by my experiences. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">It is truly a shame when a person cannot even share their OWN experience without be flamed. Thank goodness I am wearing my asbestos suit. <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I am beginning to think that some people on this board don't read anything. They just see names they don't like and assume they know the content ... <img border="0" title="" alt="[Roll Eyes]" src="images/icons/rolleyes.gif" />

<small>[ December 01, 2003, 11:01 PM: Message edited by: heavenlybody26 ]</small>

#824190 12/02/03 08:09 AM
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Gem: Yes he is scared of her too. Always has been. I guess not to scared to cheat on her, but yes to disuse anything with her. When I had said about it never being a good time, well I was being sarcastic. I know there is never a good time for news like that, but be a man and stand up for your doings. I plan on going through the courts and doing through my attorney. I know that is my only course of action with him. He has no one's interest but himself. Not his family and not his unborn child's. He has proven that with his actions. I've told him that if he does not take this DNA test that it could cost us both more money. Seeing my stbxh is wanting him to step up to the plate so he does not legally be bond to the financal end of this. Which I can understand. Xmm said I understand, but I guess he don't give a rats A&*. If I can't stall my divorce long enough then I'll loose my insurance. The cobra is very expensive and I can't get insurance anywhere else due to nerve damage in my neck. I'm seeing an high risk plus I have to have a c-section so the bill for this child is going to be very high. By law he is responsible for half of all the cost and half of my confinment. I was not going to ask him for any of it but cs. I just wanted him to do what he had asked me to do from the beginning. That way my xh would know he was not going to be responsible for this child and not divorce me until after she is born, but NO everything has to be done the hard way. He had asked me how much my attorney was costing me between him and xh and I told him probally about 5 grand. His reply was oh that is not bad. Geez...........Does he not have a clue? My high risk is even with my insurance like 100.00 or more per visit depending on the test that are run and I see him at least once a month right now. He's a spinless little swine. I just wish I would of seen the writing on the wall over year ago and used my common sense then. I do have common sense believe it or not. He begged me for the amino in August. I told him no unless I had to have one. Well, twice now I've set up the appointment with the lab (as he told me he'd gladly pay for it) and twice now he has bailed on the test. I told him that I wanted all this taken care of before she is born so I can deal with her completly and my kids and enjoy the newborn but NO, he is going to make me deal with all this once she is born. I will have to force him to take the dna test, and go to court and all. I just don't get it. But Thanks Gem and Pep for your thoughts. Sorry to ramble, but today is the test day and I'm just mad at him again for not going through with his word.

#824191 12/02/03 10:00 AM
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Dear Gem & Lynn

Heavenly has been entirely open and reasonable in this thread and she is being unfairly accused of things she never said nor did.

She was speaking of her own situation just as you both do, and just as I do. Heavenly is one of us and has been here a long, long time.

I know where this is coming from...an earlier issue; but please just let it go. Unreasonable and unwarranted attacks are usually borne out of some other unresolved issue and sometimes when we are angry about something else, we will conjure up an offense just to get out licks in. We need Heavenly's balance, wisdom and justice. She's been wonderful to ALL of us for years. A constant and unwavering source of support. Please don't forget this or how she was so proactive in securing the PO Box and dispatching the donations to one of our members a year ago, and how she has been there for each of us with empathy, warmth and kindness and love.

As always, take what you need and like and leave the rest...with ANY of our posters.

Thou shalt not "bum rap"

Catnip =^^=

#824192 12/02/03 10:13 AM
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Pops, you need to quit putting words in my mouth. I have never blamed the OC. I have always placed the blame for the situation where it belongs. In my case, my H and the OW. What I have done, however is make damm sure that my children have their voices be heard. I am not going to sacrifice them for the OC. I have stated over and over again that the OC is just one of many innocent victims of two selfish people. The mistake is not the OC, but the situation. The OW and the OC also get to carry their piece of the hurt, everyone gets a piece of it.

Look, I know that as a BW I was given a luxury that you as the Betrayed Husband didn't get, and that is I don't have to upset my whole home and family as you did. I wonder what your wife thought as she was pregnant. Did she ever take the other childrens feelings into consideration? Or was she going to bring this child home and the rest be dammed. You even state that some were upset by it. Yet they still had the child thrust into their lives, to heck with what they felt. That I find repulsive. The problem being that those children and their feelings were sacrificed for the OC. That is where my anger lies. You want to think I blame OC, I don't. I have always stated that the OC is innocent, but so are the children of the marriage. Yet you and others seem to think it is wrong that the BC have anger, and embarrasment. Now you are blaming the parents for their children being angry at OC situation???? Will the stabs at the BW and her BC never cease? They do not owe OC a thing and they are angry and hurt.

Your children now love the OC. Well that is good. But the situation where a mother is pregnant,and the child born to the home is, on the outside a bit different. Most would just assume it was yours. Sounds like you expect them to lie about their needs and wishes to accomodate the OC. Haven't their been enough lies already?

Is the Betrayed spouse supposed to bury their feelings? Pretend everything is just fine and tell the kids that nobody cares if they are hurt and upset, that we can't upset the OC, since the OC is so innocent? Well sorry, but my children were the innocent ones too. They should not be expected bury their feelings of anger and hurt. They are allowed to freely show their feelings and we do discuss them. That is the whole point. The BC do have feelings and they should not be shoved aside to accomodate the OC or anyone else. And the fallout, either way, is the fault and responsibility of the people who created the child. No way is the betrayed spouse and the children of the marriage responsible for one piece of the pain caused.

THAT is what I have always stated. You would rather have me call the OC names, which I never have. OC is innocent, but there are others just as innocent and who have their lives turned upside down too. The forgotten BC.

So, I feel really sorry for you. I can't imagine having no choice. You love your wife and want your marriage. Yet it sounds like the only choice you had was live with OC or the marriage ends. Once again, the OC comes before anyone and everyone.

So, you can call me names, whatever you wish. I will never be swayed from my position that it is not up to the BW and the BC to correct the wrong created by two selfish people. Life is to short and children should not be expected to shoulder the emotional upheaval this causes to ease a situation for others. It is up to the OW to explain to the OC the situation, since the MM is having to explain to the situation. ALL the children will carry the burden, thanks to the idiots who created it.

#824193 12/02/03 10:48 AM
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I Havent posted here in a while, but I did read some this morning.
I would like to just give a message to any people dealing with this situation. Things are not always cut and dried. I just wanted those of you who are unsure of your situation to know that not every situation is such that all the children despise each other and the adults fight. It doesnt have to be that way and I am sure it is not in all situations.

My child is accepted in both families and we all spend a lot of work and effort making sure every one is respected. The grown children of om, love my daughter just as her siblings that live with us, know one is forced this apon them, they love her willingly. Children have a great capacity for love if we as adults keep out of it.

The four adults in this work together to make sure things are nice for all families. Sometimes we have to give, sometimes they have to give. We do not pass disrespectful judgements and speak to each other in a way that would be ok for any of the children to hear. That means my children of the marriage, and his grown children.

She has her own room at their house, and is treated with love and respect when they have her. They actually enjoy the time with her, and his wife goes to great lengths to be my daughters friend.

This is not to say we have ups and downs, but it gets better, and I believe those who have contact[agreed by all four parties] treat each other with respect do a parent and move past the past. Things can and often do work out.

My marriage has recovered and we do quite well with this. I am not saying any one has forgotten, but it just isnt so much a big deal now, time does heal wounds and things can and do work out.

If you dont want contact and both agree, then go on with your life and make the best of it, work on your marriage and learn to forgive that spouse so you can both move on.

For those that decide contact is going to happen, remember as mothers, put your self in her place before you speak to each other, that means bs, ow, om, every one. If you do have contact act in the same manner you would for any child in your care, I think the spouse of mm was greatly suprised at the love she gets from my child and the respect she gets from all my children. But I do not forget the amount of pain she has had and I am always mindful of that before I speak.

This doesnt always end so badly, while I understand some of the skeptics. Please know sometimes this can and does work out.
Not with out work, lots of it, BUT I know I am doing the right thing for my family, my marriage and my children. Every one on both sides are crazy about our child. She will grow to be a beautiful young lady who has many many sisters and brothers who love her.

Just another side, something for to think about.
I wish you all the best.

#824194 12/02/03 11:10 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

Originally posted by pops:

and it is not the oc's cross to bear. those c's should never be burdened with that cross. they should be simply nurtured and loved.

</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">

I am talking about the HARDSHIPS children must endure when their fate is "chosen" by the bio-parents. They are pre-determined to live without the benifit of having a two-parent home.

The "cross" OC bear is not one of shame or responsibility for their situation .... but one of un-necessary hardships put upon them by their parents.

No father.
A home divided.
Lost connections.

These hardships are the "cross" the child feels. You may be misunderstanding my meaning.

You cannot deny there is often hardship in these OC births .... suffered by or carried by the children.

Pops ... your OC has a Mom and 2 Dads.... And dozens of loving siblings who adore her. Are you aware of how unusual her situation is? Grace has fewer hardships than most OC. Grace is truely blessed.

Most OC do not live in a home with 2 parents who each adore that child as one of their own.

That hardship .... usually fatherlessness ....is the cross of which I speak.

Pep

#824195 12/02/03 12:54 PM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by mom of five:
<strong>

For those that decide contact is going to happen, remember as mothers, put your self in her place before you speak to each other
I think the spouse of mm was greatly suprised at the love she gets from my child and the respect she gets from all my children. But I do not forget the amount of pain she has had and I am always mindful of that before I speak.

This doesnt always end so badly, while I understand some of the skeptics. Please know sometimes this can and does work out.
Not with out work, lots of it, BUT I know I am doing the right thing for my family, my marriage and my children. Every one on both sides are crazy about our child. She will grow to be a beautiful young lady who has many many sisters and brothers who love her.

Just another side, something for to think about.


=^^= Thanks, MOF, for presenting another viable and workable alternative solution to those who are seeking Contact. We need your input for those Newbies who have prgressed enough in their recovery to make hard decisions regarding contact. Thanks for popping in...it's good to hear from you!

Cat =^^=

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#824196 12/03/03 01:57 AM
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whew! That was a long holiday...a lot of catching up to do here.

People, people, people....some of you here just refuse to look @ the entire situation and that is where the bickering begins.

We ALL know that OC & BC are innocent...no argument there.

We SHOULD all know and agree by now that OW and WS were/are both responsible for A and handling the repurcussions(sp?) from it.

The disagreements start from there...how to handle repercussions.

We should all agree that the decisions for C/NC should be made by the H and W together with regards to what they think will work best for their family. It is not an abandonment issue but rather a saving-the-marriage-and-family issue.

Someone asked why the BC would feel betrayed?....hello..... they were just as "cheated on" and "betrayed" as the BS and sometimes resent the fact of having to SHARE their parent w/ a stranger who is thrust into their families w/out warning. It is CHEATING on your BC. Face the facts. That is what it is, you would not continue your relationship with the OW if you want to stay married to BS but we force BC to accept continued C w/ OC. What about BC innocence?

(Those of you who have C and have not had to deal with pain in your BC hearts then I want to become a citizen on your planet. The pain is there sometimes it lingers longer for some children than others.)

Some have chosen NC from the beginning and after reading what many who have C have to go through, are justified every day that they made the right decision for their families. A few have chosen C and say it works out splendidly! good for you. Others choose C only to find out your best intentions are resented and not appreciated and see your families hurt every day by it and start to regret the decision you made "for" the OC. OW does not want anything but her own selfish desires! So then what? Now, we advocate for NC.

And if you think you can just have C and not have to deal w/ OW.....very rare and near impossible.

Many say what your BC go through and are attacked that BC only feel "bad" because of bad parenting!?! Get real!!! BC hurt and you are in denial if you don't think so! If that were true then BS would never feel pain as long as thier WS told them it was all good and everything was ok!!!!

Let's ask the BC directly and LISTEN to them for once and see what THEY want. But then someone would say that they should not be put into a position to make a decision like that!! duh!!

I'll tell you what "feelings" my "bad parenting" has produced in my BC.

My 3yo now insists that OC is NOT his sister, even though we refer to OC as nothing else but "sister, your sister, and sissy" just like we refer to all the BC in our household as "brothers & sisters".

My 10 yo(11next month) says he "wishes OC was never around EVEN THOUGH he knows it is NOT her fault", "that is just how he feels", he "does not like being forced to share his dad!" When he wasn't sharing his feelings verbally he was having months of insomnia, angry outbursts and mood swings. Chooses to talk to mom about it because doesn't think mom will get her feelings hurt by what he has to say because OC is not her C, thinks dad would get his feelings hurt to hear those things about "his" daughter. hmmmm....I'm such a bad parent....how did I produce such a sensitive child.

OC, while looking through a photo album OW sent w/ her of OW family....I commented that she needed to add some pictures of her "brothers" and she replied, "no I don't have any brothers just 1 sister"....????..I pointed to her "brothers and sister" and reminded her she had 2 "brothers" and 2 "sisters" and she said, "oh yah!" Do you think, after 1 1/2 years of being in her life, (spending A LOT of time w/her not just EO weekend) she actually FORGOT?

ALL the children know what's up. They seem to know how wrong this situation is and how fake we all are to think it can "all just work out"!

They know the power of words, a dad is someone who raises you, loves and cares for you, anything less is a sperm donor. And sperm donors can be replaced by dads. There is nothing wrong with that, sometimes it is just a fact. C from an A, are statistically left w/o daddies but are supported by sperm donors who are taking responsibility for exactly what they know they are....sperm donors for that child, hoping that they will someday have a true daddy who can give them all the love and care they need and innocently deserve, that they can't give because they already have families that they wrongly betrayed. A cold and hard but true fact! There is nothing wrong with that. They are not "dead beat dads", those are the ones who just skip out with out warning or a dime of support!

Men are legally forced to "take responsibility" for children, OC or BC, whoever they are....why aren't OW legally responsilble for the pain and suffering of BS and BC, what about therapy or counseling? Why don't they pay for that?

.....uh oh! I hear the rumbling in the distance from the hooves of high horses everywhere gathering together!! GO ahead...it's a public place.

We can all give our opinions but you can't say that sperm donors are WRONG and OC "deserve" anything. I will repeat my self....if OW really believed OC deserved so much then they would have made %100 sure they were producing a child with a man who could give OC everything OC "deserved" and not tried to steal from someone else's family and children!

That leads me to ask..... why should we care more for someone else's child then they do for their own child?

<small>[ December 02, 2003, 03:24 PM: Message edited by: ktbunch ]</small>

#824197 12/03/03 12:32 AM
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ktbunch,
You are right and have a right to speak...

I agree with all you have said.


To all others including Heavenlybody, needtomoveon AND MO5!!!,

My h and I discussed this thread.....

I found out he went to hospital after oc birth....

I knew he went and it was 3 years ago, but he maintained n/c with ow.

not true....he saw her in the hospital...never told me till tonight....love this board!!

I went through hell and back and he's a worthless liar....'

I am done believing him.'

God will save me...

We're a fraud... Thank goodness for honesty policy..... d-day revisited....ugh

Heavenly no high horse to climb off of....

needtomoveon,

Go after him....you need it all in the open...I pray for the best for you! Wish I could answer more but can't.

love
Debi

<small>[ December 02, 2003, 11:37 PM: Message edited by: gemini1 ]</small>

#824198 12/03/03 01:25 AM
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</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by gemini1:
<strong>

I found out he went to hospital after oc birth....

=^^= WHEN did you find out? Back then or tonight?

I knew he went and it was 3 years ago, but he maintained n/c with ow.

not true....he saw her in the hospital...never told me till tonight....

=^^= You just said you knew he went three years ago...now it sounds like you never knew until tonight. I think I am confused.

I went through hell and back and he's a worthless liar....'

=^^= Gem...maybe this just got lost in all the mayhem you were going through back then...like something he thought he told you or maybe he did tell you but you had so many things going on back then, so many discoveries and such difficulty with XOW that this seemed unimportant at the time. Gem, at this point, after all the progress the two of you have made, I would just let this one go. Take a deep breath and don't throw it all away on a technicality. I dont' mean to minimize your rage or your hurt at all, I just don't want you to get all nuts over this.

I am done believing him.'

=^^= Don't say that, Gem. I hope you don't mean that. Try to look at the big picture here and see if where you are today makes up for a lot of what happened. You have made some good progress in your recovery.

God will save me...

=^^= From what? What do you need saving from?

We're a fraud... Thank goodness for honesty policy..... d-day revisited....ugh

=^^= You and your husband are not frauds...and if this footnote to discovery is akin to a D-day, then it almost seems to me that you might be looking for something because it sounded as though you already knew this then you said you just found out so I don't know which it is, but I do know it seems that you are making far more out of it than necessary and obviously your husband must have either thought you already knew about this or he felt safe enough and trusted you enough and your recovery to tell you...and I want to know what is so wrong about that? What kind of expectations do you have for your recovery? Everything all at once? Or is it OK for him to reveal other things as he feels safe with you to discuss them? If he is intimidated by your rage or your reaction, being forthcoming won't be easy for him. XOW is no threat to you in the least...so, take a deep breath, examine where this rage is coming from and address it head on through a therapist or Dr. Harley himself. Pop for a hour with him just to get you back on the fast track. Maybe he can ferret out what is really eating you because if your husband and you are into your recovery and doing pretty well and he is making you feel safe, this shouldn't effect you so badly. There might be something else bothering you that you are not aware of. I know this sometimes happens to me but I have become a bit better at identifying what is really going on with me since MB so I don't transfer rage onto others or project too much anymore...that in itself is a personal part of my recovery. I should tell you that I didn't let go of my rage until July 2002...three and a half years after D-day. Took me a really long time.

Debi, don't let this revelation derail you from your recovery. It just isn't worth it. Try to maintain low tones.

I'll keep you in my prayers.

Cat =^^=

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<small>[ December 03, 2003, 12:58 AM: Message edited by: catnip ]</small>

#824199 12/03/03 05:08 AM
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Dear Gem,

You have been through hell and back. And whether or not you agree with all the decisions I make -- I have always cared about you on a personal level and tried my best to be a supporting shoulder.

You also know that there are many bumps in this road called recovered marriage. My own opinion is the same as Catnip's. You should not stop trusting your H because he has admitted something that he did not make clear back then. Instead, my dear, you should applaud the fact that he must feel very safe in your recovered marriage to have finally told you the truth.

Part of telling the truth, especially hard truths to others, is the fact that you need confirmation and acceptance. Please don't shut your H out when he has just taken one of the biggest steps forward in your new life together.

Some time ago, I remember writing about finding a stash of old love letters and cards from the exOW. It was just like discovery again. It hit so hard just reading about the type of person my H was back then. But it was then. These things happened in a point in time when our husbands were different people. They are not those people now. Their past actions should be judged by who they were back then.

Jenny once told me that everything should be sectioned off -- behaviours before the affair and new behaviours during recovery. That was some very wise advice. You fought that battle three years ago. You heard a lot of disturbing and hurtful things after discovery, but you did not hear it all. There may still be details that were lost or not worth sharing at the time. Your H probably felt that you were hurt enough and he didn't want to hurt you any more. Remember it was also a confusing and emotional time for him too.

Please forgive him for the omission. Please recognize that it took immeasurable courage for him to make this admission to you. You are not a fraud and neither is he. You are just like the rest of us -- two loving people being tossed around by an incredibly difficult situation.

Leave the past in the past. You chose forgiveness a long time ago. Please try to keep on that path. I know it hurts just please try to put that hurt in its proper perspective. Try to concentrate on the wonderful things that have happened in your recovered life together -- your son's marriage, your new grandchild.

I love you sweetie and if you need to e-mail me please feel free to do so. I told you before, you can be as mad as you want at me and feel my decisions are wrong, but it won't change the fact that you and so many others on MB were here for me when I needed you. I will always be here for you.

I am praying now for your strength and for clarity so that you can see this development in its proper perspective. It belongs to the past -- take away its power to hurt you in your new present.

love,
heavenly

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